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What does the third dimension (vertical travel) add to ship combat?
farranor
Member Posts: 559 Arc User
Other than "ships can travel vertically in real life and realism is cool," I don't see any point to it. I would compare it to hot air balloons, but at least you can drop things on a hot air balloon that's lower than yours. All it does is give you an annoying popup when you travel too far.
What am I missing?
What am I missing?
Post edited by farranor on
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As seen in STWOK, a simple z-axis movement ability would look a hell of a lot cooler...
Exactly this. Spiraling is... well... irritating.
That's one of the reasons why I don't see the point. Moving above or below an opponent seems to be functionally identical to moving to their left or right.
If I remember correctly, people were heavily annoyed by this already in the beta, but it's too late to change the flight model for the space maps, and most people seem to have gotten used to it.
If the devs weigh in, they'll probably give you an answer saying that the game engine doesn't support a more simulational model. Which is probably basically the truth.
Besides, had they gone with a more complex model, it would have cut down on their potential customer base, as mastering space flight with gravity, conservation of momentum etc. would have had a much steeper learning curve than the current 2.5D model. The space battles throughout the history of Star Trek have mostly been in the vein of Ships-of-the-line-IN-SPACE anyway, rather than trying to model realistic movement in space, so the current model isn't a terrible fit either, to be honest.
If you want more complex spaceflight, I'd probably suggest trying out Elite: Dangerous, or getting I-War from Good Old Games.
The lack of conservation of momentum is due to Roddenberry's modelling of space combat on the naval warfare he was familiar with: cruisers and science vessels are like oceangoing ships, and escorts are like fighter jets. But the "fighter jet" illusion is just that: an illusion. All I've seen it add to the game is irritation. I think I'd actually be okay with removing the vertical aspect and just making it honestly 2D instead of just 3D enough to be annoying.
This is what I was referring to with my "Ships of the line in space" comment.
It's already too late to move to a 2D model for the space combat, TBH. It'd take massive amounts of effort to retool everything to support this. I do agree that it's really annoying occasionally having to spiral to go up and down, and getting stuck in the map "roof". Unfortunately this is what we're stuck with, by the looks of it.
If top and bottom shields where present, and the vertical height of of maps were much greater, a z-axis movement would be necessary. As it is, it definitely falls into the nice to have category.
I have to admit though, a much taller game world with top/bottom shields would make for interesting game play. Throw in a damage effect like we saw in Undiscovered Country's end battle (photon to the saucer section) and it could be real fun.
Maybe not all of us are using beam arrays exclusively.
BTW. The other day I saw a player doing a barrel roll in a Scimitar. Boy, that was ugly. That really doesn't fit in with the feeling of Startrek. If that can, we should also have Z-axis movement.
However STO shares Champions Online's assets. it's glaringly obvious.. the ships are basically flight-mode only superheroes without animations. (the USS running man bug hilarity stems from it)
Rewriting the flight model now would probably borderline on impossible (and i know the fanboys are using the word impossible alot for simpler things but this would never get funded nor would it achieve any change in the profitability of the game. it would be better to scrap it and start over)
Easy: remove the ability to bind anything to the pitch up and pitch down controls, and bring the vertically-varied maps into line so there's no need to go up or down.
I don't think the weapon type matters. If you want to keep someone in your cannon arc, pitching seems just as easy as yawing.
Thrue, but the Scimitar is supposed to be gigantic. Take a big ship, the Titanic or the carrier the Enterprise. Make it behave as if it is a speed boat. You are no longer looking at something that is really big, but at a small model of something big.
A similar experience you can see in the final mission of the Romulan Arc. Sela's ship is towed through a portal. Towed, the ship is flapping behind the Iconian vessel. That too looks really ugly.
At best they can mask it better.
Ah yes the fun corkscrew trying to get down to something way way below you or an object way above you! There have been some missions where enemy placement is off so you end up way above or below them through no fault of your own.
The space combat pails in comparison to some other games because of it and some aspects, to what you see on the shows.
This would however probably mean needing to implement dorsal and ventral shields as one example. This would be cool however. Be nice to get BC style combat.
Your forgetting about Escorts and other ships that make use of DHC's.
While a beam boat can broadside anyone all around them, ships armed with Cannon weaponry can ONLY hit targets in a cone in front of them, putting them at a severe disadvantage.
I've noticed a few of the missions that use the "Go Here Next" Mission Circles on the map could use some updates in regards to this problem. On some maps, the circle includes an arrow that points up/down in the direction you need to go. On others, mostly older missions, there's no arrow. You fly to the circle and think "Where's the &^^*# satellite? Oh, there it is 18 km above me!!" I guess it pays to use visual scanning as you approach.
Elimination of spiraling. Note this...u fly above an enemy and he shoots shields work. U fly under him same thing. Weapons arcs work in 3d. Now when I want to dive on an enemy guns a blazing I want to dive not spiral down and hope things work out.
I would prefer the Starfleet Command combat system.
would bring alot more tactic into the game.
Yes, a cone... a 3D cone. The arcs for all weapons extend both horizontally in front of you and vertically in front of you. I don't see the functional difference between, say, yawing left by 10 degrees to be able to hit someone with your cannons vs pitching down 10 degrees to be able to hit someone with your cannons.
Personally I remember playing Bridge Commander and laughing my TRIBBLE off seeing a Galaxy class vessel flying upside down, BUT I gladly support any idea that at least slightly increases the vertical movement angle, just to help with that darned spiralling.
Though it does currently help for amusing space spirals if nothing else...
"If this will be our end, then I will have them make SUCH an end as to be worthy of rememberance! Out of torpedos you say?! Find me the ferengi!".
Other than the fact you can freely yaw in STO but have a limited pitch angle? :rolleyes:
With the (X,Y,Z) laid out as it is, I am happy that I can run, hide, and fight, and explore the galaxy freely.
Come stand with us in supporting Star Trek: The Animated Series content for STO! (It's canon!) #TASforSTO
Time travel and glass-cannon ships hurt my head and is NOT what Trek is about. Trek is exploration, becoming better as a species, and gaining scientific knowledge while holding on to the traditions that got us where were are.
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What makes matters worse is your Sensor Scans focus on finding anomalies instead of what you are really looking for. Making the local map more useful as far as showing friendlies, showing relative position in the Z-axis, and fixing up Sensor Scan usefulness would go a long way ameliorating the corkscrew travel mess.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I bet Q is wetting himself right now from laughing so hard at your stupidity. In all of Star Trek, ships come above and below starships, even in TOS, VOY, DS9, all of them.
Know your facts before you make a comment. It is just great when someone spumes out TRIBBLE like its fact and it's so funny how low-information individuals think they know what's up when they live in a fantasy inside a fantasy inside a dream.
WAKE UP!!! All of Star Trek has XYZ ships movement in the shows and movies.
Come stand with us in supporting Star Trek: The Animated Series content for STO! (It's canon!) #TASforSTO
Time travel and glass-cannon ships hurt my head and is NOT what Trek is about. Trek is exploration, becoming better as a species, and gaining scientific knowledge while holding on to the traditions that got us where were are.
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I have been watching Star Trek for over 48 years. The tone of the response and comments made justifies an apology.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
However I can make do with it.
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