Like if i throw enough Money at it can i buy all the best stuff riht out of the Exchange. Or are there still items stuff that have to be grind that are bind on pickup or somthing similar?
you grind for dilithium each week, build it up over months, buy some toon slots, grind them and then work with all of them over the weeks, build it up, convert the dil to zen, buy what you like. if it takes half or year or several years, depends on you and your preference. the key is that you dont have to put anything into it to get what you want, so P2W is inaccurate. because if it were P2W, there wouldnt be a closed loop with the current economy, it would be reliant on everyone else putting some money like it was pre-f2p and it would be the only way to get something out of it that the ingame economy can not get for you.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Bickering over the definition of P2W... how productive.
If some people want to say that because someone paid money into the game for an item you got, let them say it's P2W.
If some people want to say that they never spent a dime on the game, thus it's not P2W, let them say it's F2P.
They're both right, and really there's little reason to attempt to convince anyone. It's all meaningless because no one has yet to answer the question "win what?" Without defining what winning means you'll just keep going round and round.
A casual might say that winning is completing story content on normal difficulty. A RPer might say that winning is writing a cool bio. There's a thread in the PvP forums right now suggesting Lt. Cmdr PvP using Delta Recruits as a way to "save" PvP.
None of these groups would need to pay anything to win, nor do they need to grind anything at all. By everyone's various definitions, those people don't P2W. Anything beyond the basic content of the game enters into the category of "want", which isn't a requirement to advance just a desire to advance.
Wrong, they sold it to someone, doesn't have to be you, the power was sold for money
So what? YOU don't need to pay so it is not pay to win.
Pay to win means that the only way for YOU to win is for YOU to pay cash. As long as the exchange and dil exchange work as they do now that is not true.
Attempting to redefine the phrase "pay to win" in order to associate the negative connotations to STO is tiresome and pathetic.
Not really, it is the spirt of the definition. Attempting to pick it apart, find ways around it, or justify it; just because you want to defend the game is tiresome.
It is what it is, like it, don't, whatever, but don't pretend its something else by putting a dress and make up on it.
Check the other MMO game forums out there and you'll find that players rage that their games are P2W for a tiny fraction of what is here, most don't sell power directly at all.
It's not P2W. If you have to appeal to the "spirit" of a definition then you're agreeing that it is not, just that it might "feel" like P2W for you in some personal, subjective way. Of course it's your right to feel that way, as long as you accept that you're making up your own definition for P2W.
F2P players can get exactly the same gear and powers eventually, "paying" $0 in real-world cash "to win". So, not P2W.
Mostly what fatman592 said... this is a silly conversation...
On that note, I want to put forward another argument that "STO is teh Play to Winzest":
It's true that, if I trade Dil for Zen, someone had to buy that Zen with cash (and if no one does, it gets scarce and starts costing more Dil)... It's true that the lockbox consoles on my ship were, at some point, opened up with keys bought with Zen bought with cash... even if I only spent ECs.
So, taking that kind of transitive property of payment to the logical conclusion... Any game that is supported by players paying in is "Pay to Win..." See, I can play with a Plasmonic Sucker for having only spent ECs, but someone had to support the "production" of that console with real money (in the form of lockbox keys)...
So, yeah, totally P2W even though I didn't pay to... okay... moving on...
This game runs on a server farm and is staffed by a team of writers, developers, artists, etc... the revenue that keeps those servers running and that staff at their desks comes from people paying money into the game for subs, Zen, etc. Even though I can play the game for free, *someone* has to pay to keep the lights on and, if no one pays cash into the game, then Cryptic shuts STO down and we all lose...
So, yeah, totally Pay to Win. If no one pays, STO shuts its doors and we all lose...
SO PAY UP, PLAYER! (Cos I enjoy the game and want to keep playing it)
What about free T5Us? Both of the Risian ships come with a free T5U upgrade.
Five'll get you ten that next summer's event will introduce a T6 Risian ship. (Some sort of carrier, maybe? So far there's been an escort (the corvette) and a cruiser (the luxury liner), but I can't figure out a plausible Risian science ship...)
maybe something designed for cataloguing gaseous anomalies while the crew sips maitais?
Of course someone needs to give money to Cryptic / PWE since Q is not making the game run with the power of his mind.
P2W is not "someone needs to pay". P2W = "Pay to Win" = paying cash monies gets you goodies that F2P players can never have, They winzes, you cantz.
STO is not P2W because F2P players can get the same gear and winzes just as much as the people who payz.
You keep arguing the same bad point.
This is how F2P works, in fact it is F2P, the rich buy stuff and the poor people grind and trade their time to the rich people. This is how developers monetize people who won't pay for the game, believe it or not NOTHING is free.
The difference is not all F2P games are P2W. Take a game like Rift or SWTOR, you can't directly buy power, but you can grind for in store unlocks and items. SWTOR is unique in that you can sub and all that grinding disappears instantly, it becomes a completely normal and enjoyable game.
Paying with time grinding is still paying, time is money.
Of course someone needs to give money to Cryptic / PWE since Q is not making the game run with the power of his mind.
P2W is not "someone needs to pay". P2W = "Pay to Win" = paying cash monies gets you goodies that F2P players can never have, They winzes, you cantz.
STO is not P2W because F2P players can get the same gear and winzes just as much as the people who payz.
yup this is not that type of game
all f2p games are;
5% or whatever amount of paying players
subsidizing 95% players who pay nothing.
The exchange is subsidized by paying players and used by people who pay 0.00 to acquire the same benefits that you can get by paying money outright for zen and purchasing it.
so.. there is no paywall barrier its taken away by the kind paying players who pump enough money into the exchange to allow the other 95% to play. This is not pay2win this is free2play and its "working as intended".
If you can get an item for 0.00 and its identical to the guy who payed 20 bucks then there is no way its pay2win because we all have access to it regardless of how stingy we are :eek:
In this game you can acquire items identical to the guy who purchased them outright via the paying player subsidy system known as the dilithium exchange. That's how free2play works.
This is how F2P works, in fact it is F2P, the rich buy stuff and the poor people grind and trade their time to the rich people. This is how developers monetize people who won't pay for the game, believe it or not NOTHING is free.
The difference is not all F2P games are P2W. Take a game like Rift or SWTOR, you can't directly buy power, but you can grind for in store unlocks and items. SWTOR is unique in that you can sub and all that grinding disappears instantly, it becomes a completely normal and enjoyable game.
Paying with time grinding is still paying, time is money.
he is saying the game is not pay2win I believe your both arguing the same point lol
Not really, it is the spirt of the definition. Attempting to pick it apart, find ways around it, or justify it; just because you want to defend the game is tiresome.
It is what it is, like it, don't, whatever, but don't pretend its something else by putting a dress and make up on it.
Total bull****. The "spirit of the definition" of Pay To Win is if you don't pay you don't get the best toys.
Which is blatantly incorrect for STO, because you don't have to pay to get the best toys.
Heck, it's such a simple test anyone who can find their bunghole can do it. Can you get the best toys without spending a single dollar? Yes? Then it's not P2W.
The difference is not all F2P games are P2W. Take a game like Rift or SWTOR, you can't directly buy power, but you can grind for in store unlocks and items. SWTOR is unique in that you can sub and all that grinding disappears instantly, it becomes a completely normal and enjoyable game.
I don't know about Rift, but SWTOR was blatantly P2W last time I checked. It was Slap You In The Face Because You're A Little Worthless ***** blatant. You can't even keep your gear when you were paying, once you stop paying. Literally falls off you, and now you're buck naked with no level appropriate gear.
Paying with time grinding is still paying, time is money.
I think at this point it's obvious to everyone you're ridiculously reaching ridiculously to try and apply the "pay to win" label to STO.
By that definition, literally every MMO is "Pay To Win", because no MMO starts you off at max level with max gear, requiring you to "pay" with your time. :rolleyes:
It seems alot of people miss the meaning of what P2W really means. P2W is generically applied to monetized games where you compete against other players, where you spend money to get the best stuff, where money is the easiest option to gain items normally unavailable or virtually unobtainable by F2P players, where you attack players to steal their resources or destroy things that have taken time and/or money to obtain. Basically $$$ to supress your PvP enemies.
There is virtually no PvP elemental in STO and where there is you CANNOT LOSE YOUR THINGS! That means losing no resource, item or ship.
Yes the argument that you pay with your 'time' has validity but it doesn't support the P2W argument in anyway whatsoever. Also, don't forget that those that do pay will most likely post items on the exchange where people's 'money' is exchanged for people's 'time'. This makes it a symbiotic relationship by any definition, but it's still not P2W.
I will also re-iterate....there is virtually nothing in this game that you can't spend your time working for, with the exception of the Sub's perks, meaning everything is with-in reach for everyone, time or money permitting.
I really hope this clarifies this for everyone.
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
Like if i throw enough Money at it can i buy all the best stuff riht out of the Exchange. Or are there still items stuff that have to be grind that are bind on pickup or somthing similar?
Theoretically, the maximum level of Pay To Win is warp 9.99
Any higher, warp 10, that is to say 100%, as to answer your question, and the Pay To Win cascades into an omnipresent vehicle!!!
What about free T5Us? Both of the Risian ships come with a free T5U upgrade.
Five'll get you ten that next summer's event will introduce a T6 Risian ship. (Some sort of carrier, maybe? So far there's been an escort (the corvette) and a cruiser (the luxury liner), but I can't figure out a plausible Risian science ship...)
The Science of "Opposites Attract" or The Love Boat :eek:
well aware of what it means...problem being in this game if other players don't sell zen, don't sell or trade cash items, you cannot win as a free player. if they kept their ships to themselves, didn't use the exchange, yeah, where would you be?
why is that so difficult to grasp? everyone keeps trying to say just because you can BUY FROM OTHER PLAYERS it isn't pay to win...newsflash, they paid, and then you PAY THEM. with your grind, and time. if you DIDN'T pay those players who also PAID, you wouldn't get anything i listed in the last post.
ffs seems so freaking simple yet people still can't seem to grasp those basic facts. this is a pay to win/advance game.
Yo!
If i had yr penchant for changing the definition of things i would argue that WoW is pay to win because without paying 15 bux a month you couldnt advance your character! Cause you wont even have access to it in the first place!
Ffs just reexamine yr way of thinking.
Yes everything was bought by a player at some point, but one individual player is not lost from that content because that one player didnt but it personally.
Everything costs something be it money or time.
You pay time to gain access, but also you can pay with money.
How every money cant buy you knowledge and skill to pilot or control yr toon
Odd, I feel plenty relevant. And competitive with whom, exactly? On what basis? Or is it your contention that PvP is P2W? If so, I submit that PvP in almost every game out there is P2W.
If you're just playing through the game, though, you don't need to spend any money (or even any Zen gotten through other means!) to be "relevant". The only thing I've spent Zen on is a Connie, a T1 ship, for the benefit of new Fed toons, because I grew up watching that ship.
Um... no... no you don't... you don't have to pay.
Okay so I grab a T5 ship.. grind a bit of dilithium to get an upgrade token and a fleet token go to my fleet and "buy" a fleet ship. Haven't spent a dime on anything yet... just grinded out fleet marks and dilithium to get a little itty bit of zen to grab a upgrade token and a fleet token.
Grind up my R&D... grind up my rep... use R&D to upgrade my rep gear including weapons I get from Rep stores... I can get R&D packs too from just grinding queues... haven't paid a single penny yet.
Okay lets say I'm feeling really daring and I actually want to craft... okay that takes certain DOffs... which I can buy from the exchange... which possibly someone got from DOff packs they paid for with dilithium... again not a single penny out of my pocket yet.
So now I craft up a Aegis set (using R&D I get from doing ADvanceds using upgraded purple gear I got from Reps)... go back to my fleet and buy fleet weapons using nothing but marks and dilithium.
again... not paying for anything using anything but in game currency... which isn't pay to win... with the possibility that anything I bought off the exchange also didn't cost anyone anything but in game currency.
You can have a top of a line ship... fully tricked out.... using the most current builds (minus a few of the most special lockbox consoles)... using nothing more then rep/fleet marks.. ec... and dilithium...
So no... it's not P2W... you only have to pay anything... at all... if you're an entitled nit wit who needs to have everything NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW...
Cryptic makes a ton of cash on the entiled GIVE IT TO ME NOW crowd...
Yes it is. best ships in the game come from the C-store... one way or another.
You can grind dilithium, exchange it for Zen. and buy what you need or you can Pay cash for Zen and do the same thing..
So it is pay to win, but its kinda of a social pay to win. And because it effects and can be effected by all the players on the server.. that makes it no longer pay to win.. But, out laying some cash now and again will make your life a little easier.
If you want a a top end ship though your going to have to work the system. Either seat time in the game, or cash if you don't want to spend your time grinding for Dilithium.
I will give you a play hint though.. In the middle ages it took a village to support a single mounted knight. your stable of toons is your village. Even with only 3 toons..one of 'em needs to be your main and gets fed EC and refined dilithium from your other toons, and crafting/R&D mats. (why R&D? simple answer...make your own tech upgrades.. or you can buy someone elses upgrades. I mention the tech upgrades because simply it is THE easiest way to get better gear outside of rep system grinds. And the rep system gear can also be upgraded.. Yes, you to can be running about in EPIC gear... the ships you get from the c-store might have upwards of 4 pieces of special equipment on them (consoles, weps, pets) but thats about it. You still gotta put together a load out. The basic tech upgrades run 10k EC each from the vendors (14-20k on the exchange.. if ya wanna be to lazy to go to a hub NPC and buy them, someone will be more then happy to over charge you so you can be lazy or like being a sucker!
Oh.. and just a note.. you can pop for all the very very very best gear and still be an utterly horrid players.
IT AIN'T THE GEAR MAKES THE PLAYER... It the player that makes the gear usefull.. Gear WILL NOT carry you in STO. (ok, well it might a little bit.. but its not going to make you a good player untill you learn and understand what is happening in the games combat systems.)
I know guys that team and run PvE cues mission in stock ships with COMMON quality consoles and weps.. same with their ground gear. They can beat the missions on normal.. and if they're willing to be a team on a harder setting.
I guess really it just boils down to what you call "win"
It's not the toys that make you a "leet" player... it's your real world skill at the games that does that.
Like if i throw enough Money at it can i buy all the best stuff riht out of the Exchange. Or are there still items stuff that have to be grind that are bind on pickup or somthing similar?
Do you even know what a actual p2w game is? no i didnt think so.p2w normally means you will hit a brick wall at some point and wont be able to progress without paying real cash for upgrades normally but people seem to get that all mixed up now.Considering you can literally play and with sometime and patience earn it all in game.Thats easy if you enjoy the game if you dont enjoy it then well shouldnt really be posting here.
Total bull****. The "spirit of the definition" of Pay To Win is if you don't pay you don't get the best toys.
Which is blatantly incorrect for STO, because you don't have to pay to get the best toys.
Heck, it's such a simple test anyone who can find their bunghole can do it. Can you get the best toys without spending a single dollar? Yes? Then it's not P2W.
I don't know about Rift, but SWTOR was blatantly P2W last time I checked. It was Slap You In The Face Because You're A Little Worthless ***** blatant. You can't even keep your gear when you were paying, once you stop paying. Literally falls off you, and now you're buck naked with no level appropriate gear.
I think at this point it's obvious to everyone you're ridiculously reaching ridiculously to try and apply the "pay to win" label to STO.
By that definition, literally every MMO is "Pay To Win", because no MMO starts you off at max level with max gear, requiring you to "pay" with your time. :rolleyes:
SWTOR is a subscription game with a F2P option that is no more P2W then STO. So if you think SWTOR is P2W, then STO is, they are in the same boat. Right here you've just admited STO was P2W. The difference with SWTOR is if you sub, all the grinding, locks and everything but cosmetics is taken out of the equation, you are then left with a very normal MMO.
I'd argue that Rift has started in on P2W with their last major update, they now have an equipment unlock behind a horrendous multi-month grind or pay. Since its behind a time gated currency like STO, you can choose to bypass it or grind it, but grinding is going to slow you down massively.
You are very confused about what you think.
How can SWTOR be P2W and STO not be? In both games you can buy in game currency through long term time consuming grind to access better gear.
How is paying with your time not paying? Only a 12 year old is going to view the world in this way.
Do a real google search and see what P2W means, stop being a bad lawyer and disecting the words pay and win.
Comments
you grind for dilithium each week, build it up over months, buy some toon slots, grind them and then work with all of them over the weeks, build it up, convert the dil to zen, buy what you like. if it takes half or year or several years, depends on you and your preference. the key is that you dont have to put anything into it to get what you want, so P2W is inaccurate. because if it were P2W, there wouldnt be a closed loop with the current economy, it would be reliant on everyone else putting some money like it was pre-f2p and it would be the only way to get something out of it that the ingame economy can not get for you.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
If some people want to say that because someone paid money into the game for an item you got, let them say it's P2W.
If some people want to say that they never spent a dime on the game, thus it's not P2W, let them say it's F2P.
They're both right, and really there's little reason to attempt to convince anyone. It's all meaningless because no one has yet to answer the question "win what?" Without defining what winning means you'll just keep going round and round.
A casual might say that winning is completing story content on normal difficulty. A RPer might say that winning is writing a cool bio. There's a thread in the PvP forums right now suggesting Lt. Cmdr PvP using Delta Recruits as a way to "save" PvP.
None of these groups would need to pay anything to win, nor do they need to grind anything at all. By everyone's various definitions, those people don't P2W. Anything beyond the basic content of the game enters into the category of "want", which isn't a requirement to advance just a desire to advance.
Does Cryptic sell power for real money that you can't get otherwise in game? Yes. Case closed.
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
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Nope, because you can earn dil in game and change that to zen. No real-world money spent by you so not P2W.
Wrong, they sold it to someone, doesn't have to be you, the power was sold for money
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
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Visit our Youtube channel
So what? YOU don't need to pay so it is not pay to win.
Pay to win means that the only way for YOU to win is for YOU to pay cash. As long as the exchange and dil exchange work as they do now that is not true.
Attempting to redefine the phrase "pay to win" in order to associate the negative connotations to STO is tiresome and pathetic.
Not really, it is the spirt of the definition. Attempting to pick it apart, find ways around it, or justify it; just because you want to defend the game is tiresome.
It is what it is, like it, don't, whatever, but don't pretend its something else by putting a dress and make up on it.
Check the other MMO game forums out there and you'll find that players rage that their games are P2W for a tiny fraction of what is here, most don't sell power directly at all.
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
http://dtfleet.com/
Visit our Youtube channel
F2P players can get exactly the same gear and powers eventually, "paying" $0 in real-world cash "to win". So, not P2W.
On that note, I want to put forward another argument that "STO is teh Play to Winzest":
It's true that, if I trade Dil for Zen, someone had to buy that Zen with cash (and if no one does, it gets scarce and starts costing more Dil)... It's true that the lockbox consoles on my ship were, at some point, opened up with keys bought with Zen bought with cash... even if I only spent ECs.
So, taking that kind of transitive property of payment to the logical conclusion... Any game that is supported by players paying in is "Pay to Win..." See, I can play with a Plasmonic Sucker for having only spent ECs, but someone had to support the "production" of that console with real money (in the form of lockbox keys)...
So, yeah, totally P2W even though I didn't pay to... okay... moving on...
This game runs on a server farm and is staffed by a team of writers, developers, artists, etc... the revenue that keeps those servers running and that staff at their desks comes from people paying money into the game for subs, Zen, etc. Even though I can play the game for free, *someone* has to pay to keep the lights on and, if no one pays cash into the game, then Cryptic shuts STO down and we all lose...
So, yeah, totally Pay to Win. If no one pays, STO shuts its doors and we all lose...
SO PAY UP, PLAYER! (Cos I enjoy the game and want to keep playing it)
P2W is not "someone needs to pay". P2W = "Pay to Win" = paying cash monies gets you goodies that F2P players can never have, They winzes, you cantz.
STO is not P2W because F2P players can get the same gear and winzes just as much as the people who payz.
My character Tsin'xing
You keep arguing the same bad point.
This is how F2P works, in fact it is F2P, the rich buy stuff and the poor people grind and trade their time to the rich people. This is how developers monetize people who won't pay for the game, believe it or not NOTHING is free.
The difference is not all F2P games are P2W. Take a game like Rift or SWTOR, you can't directly buy power, but you can grind for in store unlocks and items. SWTOR is unique in that you can sub and all that grinding disappears instantly, it becomes a completely normal and enjoyable game.
Paying with time grinding is still paying, time is money.
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
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Visit our Youtube channel
yup this is not that type of game
all f2p games are;
5% or whatever amount of paying players
subsidizing 95% players who pay nothing.
The exchange is subsidized by paying players and used by people who pay 0.00 to acquire the same benefits that you can get by paying money outright for zen and purchasing it.
so.. there is no paywall barrier its taken away by the kind paying players who pump enough money into the exchange to allow the other 95% to play. This is not pay2win this is free2play and its "working as intended".
If you can get an item for 0.00 and its identical to the guy who payed 20 bucks then there is no way its pay2win because we all have access to it regardless of how stingy we are :eek:
In this game you can acquire items identical to the guy who purchased them outright via the paying player subsidy system known as the dilithium exchange. That's how free2play works.
he is saying the game is not pay2win I believe your both arguing the same point lol
Total bull****. The "spirit of the definition" of Pay To Win is if you don't pay you don't get the best toys.
Which is blatantly incorrect for STO, because you don't have to pay to get the best toys.
Heck, it's such a simple test anyone who can find their bunghole can do it. Can you get the best toys without spending a single dollar? Yes? Then it's not P2W.
I don't know about Rift, but SWTOR was blatantly P2W last time I checked. It was Slap You In The Face Because You're A Little Worthless ***** blatant. You can't even keep your gear when you were paying, once you stop paying. Literally falls off you, and now you're buck naked with no level appropriate gear.
I think at this point it's obvious to everyone you're ridiculously reaching ridiculously to try and apply the "pay to win" label to STO.
By that definition, literally every MMO is "Pay To Win", because no MMO starts you off at max level with max gear, requiring you to "pay" with your time. :rolleyes:
There is virtually no PvP elemental in STO and where there is you CANNOT LOSE YOUR THINGS! That means losing no resource, item or ship.
Yes the argument that you pay with your 'time' has validity but it doesn't support the P2W argument in anyway whatsoever. Also, don't forget that those that do pay will most likely post items on the exchange where people's 'money' is exchanged for people's 'time'. This makes it a symbiotic relationship by any definition, but it's still not P2W.
I will also re-iterate....there is virtually nothing in this game that you can't spend your time working for, with the exception of the Sub's perks, meaning everything is with-in reach for everyone, time or money permitting.
I really hope this clarifies this for everyone.
Theoretically, the maximum level of Pay To Win is warp 9.99
Any higher, warp 10, that is to say 100%, as to answer your question, and the Pay To Win cascades into an omnipresent vehicle!!!
chikawowwow! :eek:
The Science of "Opposites Attract" or The Love Boat :eek:
I was thinking more along the lines of a interstellar mobile drug lab ala Walter White innnnnnnn Sppaaaaaaaccceee.
Yo!
If i had yr penchant for changing the definition of things i would argue that WoW is pay to win because without paying 15 bux a month you couldnt advance your character! Cause you wont even have access to it in the first place!
Ffs just reexamine yr way of thinking.
Yes everything was bought by a player at some point, but one individual player is not lost from that content because that one player didnt but it personally.
Everything costs something be it money or time.
You pay time to gain access, but also you can pay with money.
How every money cant buy you knowledge and skill to pilot or control yr toon
Ffs just get off yr broken arguement
Ffs
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If you're just playing through the game, though, you don't need to spend any money (or even any Zen gotten through other means!) to be "relevant". The only thing I've spent Zen on is a Connie, a T1 ship, for the benefit of new Fed toons, because I grew up watching that ship.
My character Tsin'xing
Um... no... no you don't... you don't have to pay.
Okay so I grab a T5 ship.. grind a bit of dilithium to get an upgrade token and a fleet token go to my fleet and "buy" a fleet ship. Haven't spent a dime on anything yet... just grinded out fleet marks and dilithium to get a little itty bit of zen to grab a upgrade token and a fleet token.
Grind up my R&D... grind up my rep... use R&D to upgrade my rep gear including weapons I get from Rep stores... I can get R&D packs too from just grinding queues... haven't paid a single penny yet.
Okay lets say I'm feeling really daring and I actually want to craft... okay that takes certain DOffs... which I can buy from the exchange... which possibly someone got from DOff packs they paid for with dilithium... again not a single penny out of my pocket yet.
So now I craft up a Aegis set (using R&D I get from doing ADvanceds using upgraded purple gear I got from Reps)... go back to my fleet and buy fleet weapons using nothing but marks and dilithium.
again... not paying for anything using anything but in game currency... which isn't pay to win... with the possibility that anything I bought off the exchange also didn't cost anyone anything but in game currency.
You can have a top of a line ship... fully tricked out.... using the most current builds (minus a few of the most special lockbox consoles)... using nothing more then rep/fleet marks.. ec... and dilithium...
So no... it's not P2W... you only have to pay anything... at all... if you're an entitled nit wit who needs to have everything NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW...
Cryptic makes a ton of cash on the entiled GIVE IT TO ME NOW crowd...
Yes it is. best ships in the game come from the C-store... one way or another.
You can grind dilithium, exchange it for Zen. and buy what you need or you can Pay cash for Zen and do the same thing..
So it is pay to win, but its kinda of a social pay to win. And because it effects and can be effected by all the players on the server.. that makes it no longer pay to win.. But, out laying some cash now and again will make your life a little easier.
If you want a a top end ship though your going to have to work the system. Either seat time in the game, or cash if you don't want to spend your time grinding for Dilithium.
I will give you a play hint though.. In the middle ages it took a village to support a single mounted knight. your stable of toons is your village. Even with only 3 toons..one of 'em needs to be your main and gets fed EC and refined dilithium from your other toons, and crafting/R&D mats. (why R&D? simple answer...make your own tech upgrades.. or you can buy someone elses upgrades. I mention the tech upgrades because simply it is THE easiest way to get better gear outside of rep system grinds. And the rep system gear can also be upgraded.. Yes, you to can be running about in EPIC gear... the ships you get from the c-store might have upwards of 4 pieces of special equipment on them (consoles, weps, pets) but thats about it. You still gotta put together a load out. The basic tech upgrades run 10k EC each from the vendors (14-20k on the exchange.. if ya wanna be to lazy to go to a hub NPC and buy them, someone will be more then happy to over charge you so you can be lazy or like being a sucker!
Oh.. and just a note.. you can pop for all the very very very best gear and still be an utterly horrid players.
IT AIN'T THE GEAR MAKES THE PLAYER... It the player that makes the gear usefull.. Gear WILL NOT carry you in STO. (ok, well it might a little bit.. but its not going to make you a good player untill you learn and understand what is happening in the games combat systems.)
I know guys that team and run PvE cues mission in stock ships with COMMON quality consoles and weps.. same with their ground gear. They can beat the missions on normal.. and if they're willing to be a team on a harder setting.
I guess really it just boils down to what you call "win"
It's not the toys that make you a "leet" player... it's your real world skill at the games that does that.
Pay to win is a myth around here.
Khemaraa Iron Hand sends
Do you even know what a actual p2w game is? no i didnt think so.p2w normally means you will hit a brick wall at some point and wont be able to progress without paying real cash for upgrades normally but people seem to get that all mixed up now.Considering you can literally play and with sometime and patience earn it all in game.Thats easy if you enjoy the game if you dont enjoy it then well shouldnt really be posting here.
SWTOR is a subscription game with a F2P option that is no more P2W then STO. So if you think SWTOR is P2W, then STO is, they are in the same boat. Right here you've just admited STO was P2W. The difference with SWTOR is if you sub, all the grinding, locks and everything but cosmetics is taken out of the equation, you are then left with a very normal MMO.
I'd argue that Rift has started in on P2W with their last major update, they now have an equipment unlock behind a horrendous multi-month grind or pay. Since its behind a time gated currency like STO, you can choose to bypass it or grind it, but grinding is going to slow you down massively.
You are very confused about what you think.
How can SWTOR be P2W and STO not be? In both games you can buy in game currency through long term time consuming grind to access better gear.
How is paying with your time not paying? Only a 12 year old is going to view the world in this way.
Do a real google search and see what P2W means, stop being a bad lawyer and disecting the words pay and win.
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
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