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Has todays patch broken shields?

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  • ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I can't wait to get home and give this a try on my tanks! This ought to up the excitement factor some if it's true that there is a reduction in shields.
    I kinda felt CCA was a little weak already, and this will get the heart pounding if shields are reduced.
    Will I take more incoming hits, do more healing or both in CCA?
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I'll add it here, case folks don't look at the bug thread...
    Set it to Elite. Set Shield Power to minimal to reduce Regen Rate. Hit up Nassordin and some Hierarchy. Parked a facing toward a mob and let them shoot.

    15:03:12:14:15:16.9::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11368 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Shield,,-1240.25,-876.8
    15:03:12:14:15:16.9::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11368 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Polaron,,60.954,1743.33
    15:03:12:14:15:17.3::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11368 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Shield,,-1254.96,-887.199
    15:03:12:14:15:17.3::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11368 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Polaron,,61.6769,1764.01
    15:03:12:14:15:18.3::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11368 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Shield,,-1066.8,-777.674
    15:03:12:14:15:18.3::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11368 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Polaron,,54.0629,1546.24
    15:03:12:14:15:18.7::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11369 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Shield,,-1058.35,-796.332
    15:03:12:14:15:18.7::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11369 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Polaron,,55.36,1583.34
    15:03:12:14:15:19.3::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11368 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Shield,,-1162.74,-874.874
    15:03:12:14:15:19.3::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11368 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Polaron,,60.8201,1739.5
    15:03:12:14:15:19.5::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11369 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Shield,,-1048.71,-815.295
    15:03:12:14:15:19.5::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11369 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Polaron,,56.6782,1621.04
    15:03:12:14:15:20.0::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11369 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Shield,,-1105.18,-966.797
    15:03:12:14:15:20.0::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11369 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Polaron,,50.8842,1681.35
    15:03:12:14:15:20.5::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11369 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Shield,,-1086.42,-924.348
    15:03:12:14:15:20.5::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11369 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Polaron,,64.2595,1633.32
    15:03:12:14:15:21.1::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11369 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Shield,,-1026.41,-873.287
    15:03:12:14:15:21.1::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11369 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Polaron,,45.9626,1518.73
    15:03:12:14:15:21.6::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11369 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Shield,,-1059.04,-1006.9
    15:03:12:14:15:21.6::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11369 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Polaron,,69.9985,1602.52
    15:03:12:14:15:22.1::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11369 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Shield,,-1052.67,-1000.84
    15:03:12:14:15:22.1::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11369 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Polaron,,69.5769,1592.87
    15:03:12:14:15:22.9::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11369 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Shield,,-1052.66,-1000.84
    15:03:12:14:15:22.9::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11369 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Polaron,,52.6755,1567.72
    15:03:12:14:15:23.1::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11369 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Shield,,-1001.95,-952.62
    15:03:12:14:15:23.1::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11369 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Polaron,,50.1379,1492.19
    15:03:12:14:15:23.5::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11368 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Shield,,-1150.47,-1093.82
    15:03:12:14:15:23.5::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11368 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Polaron,,83.6344,1752.16
    15:03:12:14:15:23.6::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11368 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Transphasic Torpedo,Pn.Usr4f31,Kinetic,,10412.9,15487
    15:03:12:14:15:23.9::Hierarchy Cruiser,C[11369 Space_Hierarchy_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Polaron Array,Pn.8026wp1,Polaron,,1060.43,1578.01


    So the shield hits before things just went to hull...

    -1240.25
    -1254.96
    -1066.8
    -1058.35
    -1162.74
    -1048.71
    -1105.18
    -1086.42
    -1026.41
    -1059.04
    -1052.67
    -1052.66
    -1001.95
    -1150.47

    ...total to 15366.61 damage.

    That suggests that it's the 15107 in play rather than the 7539, imho.

    edit: So a 259.61 difference over a 7s period with a listed 193.3 shield regen, would leave 66.31 to account for...and I forgot to switch out the MACO shields, so my Shield Power would have varied between 54 and 64...which would have the whole thing fall into a range suggested by...
    http://sto.gamepedia.com/Guide:_Shields#Regeneration

    If 25 < Power Level ≤ 125, then Regeneration = (1 + (Power Level - 50) / 25) x (Base Regeneration at 50).
    If Power Level ≤ 25 , then Regeneration = 0

    So it's a pretty strong suggestion, imho, that it's just a display issue.
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    It's a Reporting Bug.
    XzRTofz.gif
  • swatopswatop Member Posts: 566 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    News flash: "Iconian fleet approaching. Federation, Klingon and Romulan fleets caught with pants down".
  • thetaninethetanine Member Posts: 1,367 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    From today's Patch Notes:

    Resolved an issue where ground shields would look like they were full at 0%.

    I wonder how many ppl have seen ships moving around the INSIDE of Earth Spacedock? I have. And so have a lot of other long time veteran players. For ground shields to get mixed up with ship shields, in no far stretch.

    The dev's got their wires crossed. Good luck getting this one fixed.

    Here's a pic http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img823/3700/ppqo.jpg because I know some fuuktard is gonna say 'pics orn dinn happennn'. whatever.

    You peeps might not know it but our avatars on the ground just turn into ships in "space".
    STAR TREK
    lD8xc9e.png
  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,951 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Back in the day I beamed down for a mission and rematerialized as a miniature version of my ship, fun times, lol
    Lifetime Subscriber since Beta
    eaY7Xxu.png
  • wazzagiowwazzagiow Member Posts: 769 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    well seems to me space and ground is pretty different since the patch. on ground it's like I'm wearing no armor or a shield. in space nothing is showing up which could be just a visual updating problem.
  • groomofweirdgroomofweird Member Posts: 1,045 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    thetanine wrote: »
    From today's Patch Notes:

    Resolved an issue where ground shields would look like they were full at 0%.

    I wonder how many ppl have seen ships moving around the INSIDE of Earth Spacedock? I have. And so have a lot of other long time veteran players. For ground shields to get mixed up with ship shields, in no far stretch.

    The dev's got their wires crossed. Good luck getting this one fixed.

    Here's a pic http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img823/3700/ppqo.jpg because I know some fuuktard is gonna say 'pics orn dinn happennn'. whatever.

    You peeps might not know it but our avatars on the ground just turn into ships in "space".

    LOL! I was there that day, only caught the one ship in my screenshot though

    http://s1301.photobucket.com/user/groom_of_weird/media/star%20trek%20pics/screenshot_2013-11-18-12-30-11_zps402283a9.jpg.html

    Amusing times :D

    EDIT: The only space missions I ran this evening were Fleet alert in my kumari and Crystal in my Sheshar/Scimitar/ Sarr Theln. The stats are showing as lower but I didn't notice anything out of place in my limited space runs this evening. That's not to say there isn't an issue however, just my feedback.
    Nimoysig1_zpsr79joxz3.jpg
    "If this will be our end, then I will have them make SUCH an end as to be worthy of rememberance! Out of torpedos you say?! Find me the ferengi!".
  • medalionemissarymedalionemissary Member Posts: 612 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    +1 to this thread

    I has same issue... however, i am not dying quickly as the number may suggest, so it's just reporting lower numbers but I am not anymore killable than before.
    Deep Space Nine in HD, make it so!
  • ccarmichael07ccarmichael07 Member Posts: 755 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Ditto.

    Ran a test run in "Stranded in Space", which I ran once last week. Last week, my shields were rock solid against all opponents, hardly being damaged at all. Today, in the final fight with the carrier, My shields were all in the red by the end of the fight.

    Something has definitely changed. Either it's a bug...or it was a stealth nerf which DRASTICALLY changes the nature of the game.


    "You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack.
    I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Ditto.

    Ran a test run in "Stranded in Space", which I ran once last week. Last week, my shields were rock solid against all opponents, hardly being damaged at all. Today, in the final fight with the carrier, My shields were all in the red by the end of the fight.

    Something has definitely changed. Either it's a bug...or it was a stealth nerf which DRASTICALLY changes the nature of the game.


    ^^ This. Please, do NOT dismiss this issue as a reporting error!

    P.S. Actually, when it's truly broken, and won't get fixed, that will be a deal-breaker for me. Shields are a core element of the game. And I paid way too much in Upgrades/gear to just ignore those buffs being gone.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    This is incoming Shield Damage and DPS from ISA. 5 runs from March 5th and one I just did. Shield Damage is going to depend on the length of the run. It's more about the incoming DPS. That being said, maybe it's the Shield Heals folks are noticing as off? Cause I'm not noticing anything/anywhere that's off outside of the display. Let me add those in as the third column. BTW, these are all public queue pugs.

    March 5th...#1

    Player A) 307k, 446 DPS, 197k
    Player B) 552k, 807 DPS, 1187k <--- me
    Player C) 169k, 248 DPS, 135k
    Player D) 137k, 201 DPS, 233k
    Player E) 194k, 286 DPS, 128k
    Team) 1359k, 1988 DPS, 1880k

    March 5th...#2

    Player A) 379k, 518 DPS, 792k
    Player B) 410k, 555 DPS, 1505k <--- me
    Player C) 326k, 445 DPS, 375k
    Player D) 202k, 275 DPS, 45k
    Player E) 99k, 134 DPS, 55k
    Team) 1416k, 1927 DPS, 2772k

    March 5th...#3

    Player A) 820k, 829 DPS, 2308k <--- me
    Player B) 506k, 516 DPS, 1482k
    Player C) 557k, 567 DPS, 231k
    Player D) 154k, 163 DPS, 91k
    Player E) 137k, 139 DPS, 78k
    Team) 2174k, 2214 DPS, 4190k

    March 5th...#4

    Player A) 684k, 807 DPS, 1618k <--- me
    Player B) 229k, 273 DPS, 824k
    Player C) 141k, 167 DPS, 69k
    Player D) 59k, 70 DPS, 9k
    Player E) 41k, 49 DPS, 24k
    Team) 1154k, 1366 DPS, 2544k

    March 5th...#5

    Player A) 412k, 876 DPS, 520k
    Player B) 204k, 435 DPS, 850k <--- me
    Player C) 151k, 323 DPS, 156k
    Player D) 25.k, 53 DPS, 28k
    Player E) 30k, 66 DPS, 17k
    Team) 822k, 1753 DPS, 1571k

    March 13th...

    Player A) 448k, 553 DPS, 280k
    Player E) 623k, 770 DPS, 1616k <--- me
    Player C) 349k, 431 DPS, 227k
    Player D) 72k, 88 DPS, 54k
    Player E) 158k, 195 DPS, 77k
    Team) 1650k, 2037 DPS, 2254k

    Hrmm, yeah, so I just don't know what to say about folks actually experiencing an issue beyond the display bit...

    ...is there any common build element amongst those folks? Certain abilities? Certain gear choices? Anything that might point to what's going on for them?
  • farmallmfarmallm Member Posts: 4,630 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I did a quick patrol on my Romulan in the Dyson Sphere. My shields didn't drop much at all. Hardly noticed, however my hull took a beating.
    Enterprise%20C_zpsrdrf3v8d.jpg

    USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
    Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    farmallm wrote: »
    I did a quick patrol on my Romulan in the Dyson Sphere. My shields didn't drop much at all. Hardly noticed, however my hull took a beating.

    If you get hit by the Voth version of Tyken's Rift, your shields won't feel a thing but your hull will ;)

    Same thing if the Voth Citadel teleports you into a Grav Well.
    XzRTofz.gif
  • edited March 2015
    This content has been removed.
  • vawlkusvawlkus Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    This is no reporting bug, it's a lot worse.

    Scimitar T5-U with honor guard shields at MK XIV (not UR) with 2 x EPTS and double RSP IIs and in CCA I can't go toe to toe with a single Tholian ship anymore. Before the patch I could deal with them and focus on the CE. Now, I drag a single Tholian ship away from the group (not a recluse either) and spend ten minutes going at it with all my shield abilities on constantly (including ST2, 2 x Tac team, scimitar double shields, miracle worker, etc) and my shields are never not in the red. I dunno what was done, but it's a MASSIVE shield nerf for my scim.
  • js26568js26568 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    This definitely isn't just a display issue. Can we have a moment of silence for the slaughtered crew of my Wells please.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Free Tibet!
  • jerichoredoranjerichoredoran Member Posts: 195 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    vawlkus wrote: »
    ...

    This is quite funny. When my Scim unstealths in CCA I start right out with 0 shields most of the time. And every now and then I get 15-25k hits through active and high shields without dropping them.
  • capemike4capemike4 Member Posts: 394 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Noticed some odd numbers on my shields, as if they couldn't make up their mind....

    ...otherwise, though, my T5-U Fleet Nebula did it's usual tank/crowd control thing with no noticeable degradation in performance, even in an ISA run...but then again, I'm making around 69k hull and 14,4k shields, and have more than enough regen/repair abilities to worry, unless I get caught in between the 2 groups of probes and/or nanites when they all notice me at once....
    When in doubt...Gravity Well TO THE FACE!! :D
  • thejoker767thejoker767 Member Posts: 41 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    yup ! shieds are down from 14,4k to 10,1 .... no more bonuses from space sets .. etc

    also still broken : elite fleet reinforced warp cores .... when upgrading to epic (w-s .. to .. w->s x2) the second w->s does not do anything

    Feel like someone at cryptic is pointing and laughing ...

    Really this so much fun .... invest time ... ress... and get thanks like this ... wouppi-freaking-dooo !!!
  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    edited March 2015
    Our initial testing indicated this was only a display issue in the UI. We're still looking into the matter, but so far we haven't been able to verify that anything is actually wrong with shield values 'under the hood.' Only the values being displayed to players.

    Does anyone have solid evidence that could help prove this is something more than a display issue? Maybe there's a scenario we aren't testing internally that could reveal additional information.
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • swatopswatop Member Posts: 566 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    How should a player provide solid evidence for such an issue?
    Seriously, players can not measure anything other than the numbers they see on the screen.
    Only a developer could look behind these numbers.
  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    edited March 2015
    swatop wrote: »
    How should a player provide solid evidence for such an issue?

    It can be done: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=22787471&postcount=33

    I try not to question the methods and ingenuity of our players any more. There's always somebody out there capable of defeating any task put before them.
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Does anyone have solid evidence that could help prove this is something more than a display issue? Maybe there's a scenario we aren't testing internally that could reveal additional information.

    I don't have Elite Fleet Shields to do testing, but a couple (a few, some) of the folks have mentioned those when mentioning their issue. The one guy in the other thread mentioned that the max stacks resulted in no stacks. He didn't say how he was observing that (lol, he downright refused to state how he was observing it or anything), but it's likely a common enough shield out there amongst some of the folks reporting a problem (would be nifty if all the folks experiencing it could chime in with what they had going on: shield, traits, buffs, sort of thing)...but is it possible something happened there, so they're seeing their shields go down faster?
  • spookpwaspookpwa Member Posts: 316 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I would have thought this an easy fix, simply undo what they did in the patch, then spend some actual time researching what they need to do to give them the original desired results. One thing's for certain had the error been something that gave out 10x dilithium or XP it would have been solved already with an emergency maintenance.

    Cryptic uses the holodeck server as beta tester for game, so I guess the tribble server is for alpha test..... :rolleyes:

    The very thought of what might be on redshirt gives me nightmares... :P

    I have come to accept that unlike other MMO-developers that TRIBBLE up royally Cryptic just ignore any problem it might cause for players and hope everyone forget it in a week or two.

    In any decent MMO most of Cryptics normal patches would cause rollbacks while they tried to figure out what they did wrong, followed by that they asked players to forgive them and tried to make up for the mistake somehow..... But this is Cryptic we are talking about. :rolleyes:
    Double_e23652_217093.jpg

    A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
  • philosopherephilosophere Member Posts: 607 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I had reported yesterday that I thought it was performance. But since I have done another FFA with no problems, so it may have been a enemy specific problem. Will keep any eye on that as it may offer clues to the culprit(s), if there is one.

    On the CCA front, ran various characters through it with no problems.

    Our own CSI style mystery, but with no body(s).

    Ohhhh.... so exciting!

    I would have loved to wear Sherlocks' hat, but Virusdancer is already has it on I think, it's hard to see through all the pipe smoke....
    Are we there yet?
  • swatopswatop Member Posts: 566 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    It can be done: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=22787471&postcount=33

    I try not to question the methods and ingenuity of our players any more. There's always somebody out there capable of defeating any task put before them.

    ok, i just think that developers have (or should have) better abilities of testing and verifying such issues correctly.
    If thats not the case it is probably time to get worried.
  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    swatop wrote: »
    If thats not the case it is probably time to get worried.

    Already way past that point, way way past ;)
  • lordhavelocklordhavelock Member Posts: 2,248 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I know Borticus said Crystalline Entity mission isn't the best example for the problem, but I will say, for whatever it's worth, that I've been running 16 characters through CE daily since it started on March 5th, and I have not noticed any increase in difficulty due to shields (or any other factor).

    :cool:

    You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
  • crm14916crm14916 Member Posts: 1,535 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Same with me... I ran each of my toons through CEN last night and didn't notice a difference either...

    CM
    "Equipped with his five senses, man explores the universe around him and calls the adventure science." - Edwin Hubble
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