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  • walshicuswalshicus Member Posts: 1,314 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    ashkrik23 wrote: »
    Got some examples for comparison?

    Your "so called leftist" democrats are more right wing than our *conservatives*.

    It's all about class and class consciousness. Your politics is focused around a "Middle Class" that's basically meaningless, while you have no true representation for your Working Class. In fact, the entire concept of a Working Class is broadly ignored, or subsumed into Middle Class issues.
    http://mmo-economics.com - analysing the economic interactions in MMOs.
  • edited March 2015
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    edited March 2015
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Define "Center" because 'Centrist' is different depending where you are. (example; Barack Obama is rather right-wing by the standards of some areas of Europe, while being viewed as very much to the left in most of the 'flyover' states in the U.S.)

    The political 'center' is variable, it's subjective, and it shifts.

    By that logic it is impossible to identify as 'left' or 'right' as well. All political opinions and positions shift over time.

    But, then again I would rather describe my own stance on an issue verbally, rather than 'left' or 'right' due to that international definition switch.
    Like hoe 'socialist' is a fighting word in the US, but in most of Europe it's the standard model for almost every nation with most of the 'right wing' being essential conservative socialists rather than liberal socialists.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • edited March 2015
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  • walshicuswalshicus Member Posts: 1,314 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    patrickngo wrote: »
    But ya gotta remember-most of the Western world didn't so much reject feudalism, as Feudalism mutated, and the urge to obey one's betters is stronger in Europe than it is in North America.

    Hah!

    You can't be serious with this. You guys don't even have any effective working class representation. You've literally used mass-media to convince millions of American working class people that they're better off with policies *designed* to increase the wealth of the already-wealthy. The American aristocracy (and it exists regardless of the lack of titles) thrives far more than any European equivalent.

    We Europeans on the other hand have a proven history of pro-individual, pro-consumer, pro-worker, pro-voter policies.
    http://mmo-economics.com - analysing the economic interactions in MMOs.
  • oldravenman3025oldravenman3025 Member Posts: 1,892 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    walshicus wrote: »
    Your "so called leftist" democrats are more right wing than our *conservatives*.

    It's all about class and class consciousness. Your politics is focused around a "Middle Class" that's basically meaningless, while you have no true representation for your Working Class. In fact, the entire concept of a Working Class is broadly ignored, or subsumed into Middle Class issues.




    I laughed so hard at this, I nearly pissed myself. I love it when "enlightened" outsiders, from the so-called "enlightened" nations of the world, critique and criticize our political system. All the while, having no ****ing clue, and living in systems of "soft tyranny", that below the surface, are either far more insidious or just as problematic as ours.


    What works for you may not work for us, and vice versa.



    This is also why in order to get along, and maintain civility on these (international) boards, politics and religious discussion is not allowed. Politics and religious discussion on the internet tends to invite Class-A trolling and ****storms, and create bad feelings. Not good for an online community as a whole.



    I guess the moderators are either not around, or are too busy elsewhere on the boards. These political and religious troll threads, started by a certain troll, have run far longer than I expected they would.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    edited March 2015
    patrickngo wrote: »
    But ya gotta remember-most of the Western world didn't so much reject feudalism, as Feudalism mutated, and the urge to obey one's betters is stronger in Europe than it is in North America.

    After all, when you strip off the veneer, Socialism is the lord, collecting the product from the serfs, and redistributing it in a way that benefits his position in the manor. Whether that Lord has to distribute more resource to his supporters to keep his position through election, or through force, is semantics. Government power is rooted in the power to kill and destroy with impunity.

    That's a very interesting definition of socialism.

    Additionally, I don't think most people have much of a problem with the person at the top milking it as long as the conditions at the bottom were still excellent. The alternative is a system where a large group are in excellent condition and a immense group at the bottom lack the basic necessities to make life bearable.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • edited March 2015
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  • ashkrik23ashkrik23 Member Posts: 10,809 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Socialism only stops the American dream.
    King of Lions rawr! Protect the wildlife of the world. Check out my foundry series Perfection and Scars of the Pride. arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/1138650/ashkrik23s-foundry-missions
    ashkrik_by_lindale_ff-d65zc3i.png
  • millimidgetmillimidget Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    aelfwin1 wrote: »
    I understand your concerns , however you might also consider that the vaunted "pro life" Republicans never consider their attitude to lead towards more and more bloated military spending.
    We would have our work cut out for us if we only needed to be on guard against the spending interests of the military-industrial complex.

    But its the regulatory-industrial complex and the welfare state (including social programs) that drive the debt.

    The military is actually quite affordable.
    "Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
  • edited March 2015
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    edited March 2015
    ashkrik23 wrote: »
    Socialism only stops the American dream.

    A dream that started of as 'try your damndest to make it to the top' to 'TRIBBLE you guys, I'm at the top'.

    Socialism is the redistribution of aid around the system to assist those who can't stand on their own, it often ends up similar to the old adage 'the best political compromise is one where neither side is happy'. I don't see anything in the 'American dream' about not being able to help other up with you, or that you, at the top, might have to put up with a little suffering (taxes etc.) to make it easier for the poor.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • edited March 2015
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  • millimidgetmillimidget Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    ashkrik23 wrote: »
    Socialism only stops the American dream.
    The American Dream is under assault. It's almost been supplanted by the American Pipe Dream of getting rich quick, typically off the lottery.
    "Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
  • edited March 2015
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    edited March 2015
    patrickngo wrote: »
    That redistribution, that's Charity and it existed a long time before Socialism did. Socialism is using the power of the gun to take resources from those near (but not at) the top, and distribute it to those lower on the chain to buy their support.

    Charity IS socialism in it's purest definition. Weather you take it from the top or near the top, or weather you need coercion or good will for it is immaterial, and the outcome is to boost those at the bottom not to buy favour.

    You seem to be mixing up socialism, the concept, and socialism, the political ideology. That's how internet flame wars start...
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • ashkrik23ashkrik23 Member Posts: 10,809 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Socialism prevents those with a good heart who are attempting to achieve the American dream by also helping others do it.

    Not every big business CEO is a heartless and greedy individual.

    You start taking money from people, there will be none to give. There will never be enough money to make society have equal wealth. It's not humanly possible.
    King of Lions rawr! Protect the wildlife of the world. Check out my foundry series Perfection and Scars of the Pride. arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/1138650/ashkrik23s-foundry-missions
    ashkrik_by_lindale_ff-d65zc3i.png
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    edited March 2015
    ashkrik23 wrote: »
    Socialism prevents those with a good heart who are attempting to achieve the American dream by also helping others do it.

    Not every big business CEO is a heartless and greedy individual.

    You start taking money from people, there will be none to give. There will never be enough money to make society have equal wealth. It's not humanly possible.

    'half of global wealth held by the 1%'

    With only a rudimentary grasp of maths, it would be certainly possible to make everybody monetarily comfortable at a roughly equal level.

    Is it fair, probably not, but suggesting that there is 'not enough money' is a ludicrous statement.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • edited March 2015
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    edited March 2015
    patrickngo wrote: »
    you're missing something though.

    most redistribution systems exempt those in power. The tax-burden to support social programs isn't borne by the Windsors, Rothschilds, Roosevelts, Carnegies, etc.

    they're borne by people in the upper strata of the remaining 99%. It's the fundamental lie of Socialist dogma. Rich people will stay rich, because they will assure that THEY do not bear the brunt of their conscience-driven backing of social welfare.

    It's particularly true of the inherited set, the 'old money' types. The people who can, and do, buy elections.

    it's not lie, it simply being unable to act, whether the redistribution should be taken from the 1% or not, the rest still cannot act against them, it is not the system of socialism that is flawed, but rather democracy in general.

    Besides, what's the humane alternative to socialism anyway? Let the poor starve, or chose which leg they would like to save?
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 4,404 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    *sees the conversation has switched to "socialism"*

    Hmm, I give this thread 3 more pages before someone gets the Godwin Point.
    #TASforSTO
    Iconian_Trio_sign.jpg?raw=1
  • millimidgetmillimidget Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    artan42 wrote: »
    Besides, what's the humane alternative to socialism anyway? Let the poor starve, or chose which leg they would like to save?
    You educate them. Europe has something approaching the caliber of education system necessary, but the business and regulatory climate suppresses economic activity. America has a more suitable business and regulatory climate, but our education system is in shambles.
    "Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
  • baudlbaudl Member Posts: 4,060 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    You educate them. Europe has something approaching the caliber of education system necessary, but the business and regulatory climate suppresses economic activity. America has a more suitable business and regulatory climate, but our education system is in shambles.

    regulatory climate in europe is just fine...we'd like to be able to drink our water in the future and not have it poisened by fracking and other ****. Also we like to be able to actually make aliving of our jobs and not work for less than 5 euros an hour.
    We very much like our socialist way of life and what you need is a good dose of our superior educational system yourself, then you wouldn't be telling us such nonsense.

    What you conveniently ignore is, that for every millionaire your "american dream" creates, it also creates about 10000 people that have to live below the poverty line. I think I speak for every european when I say that we rather have a few hundret millionairs less but in return do not have to deal with poor people unable to feed their children or can't afford medical treatment. Income gap creates crime and violence, and we don't plan on putting 1% (2.2 millions) of our entire population in prison.
    Go pro or go home
  • millimidgetmillimidget Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    patrickngo wrote: »
    I think there was a study on this, but lotto sales typically run higher in poorer areas than in wealthier ones, and the demographics indicate a definite trend of winners ending up deeply in debt within five years of winning.

    In a way, Lotteries are a "Soak the desperate, stupid, and hopeful' scam.
    Indeed. It's one facet of the liberal effort to keep the masses oppressed, right alongside the entertainment economy. Keep them blinded with the promise of vaulting from the bottom to the top, and make sure they're stupid enough not to realize their odds of achieving that are infinitesimally small.
    "Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
  • aphelionmarauderaphelionmarauder Member Posts: 184 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I say we have Obama play and we educate him in game by making a foundry mission to educate him on the academy on FED and KDF about the differences about Star Trek and Star Wars. he will have time once he is out of office im sure.
    Support the movement!
    Come stand with us in supporting Star Trek: The Animated Series content for STO! (It's canon!) #TASforSTO

    Time travel and glass-cannon ships hurt my head and is NOT what Trek is about. Trek is exploration, becoming better as a species, and gaining scientific knowledge while holding on to the traditions that got us where were are.
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    edited March 2015
    You educate them. Europe has something approaching the caliber of education system necessary, but the business and regulatory climate suppresses economic activity. America has a more suitable business and regulatory climate, but our education system is in shambles.

    How does education give one opportunities if one has no money? Free education is a condition of socialism after all.

    As for the US model of business and regulations, what regulations. Form over here it looks like business can do what it wants over there, they practically have seats in your government.

    More education should lead to more regulation, remember it was lack of regulation in the US mortgage market that caused the global financial meltdown.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • millimidgetmillimidget Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    baudl wrote: »
    we'd like to be able to drink our water in the future and not have it poisened by fracking and other ****.
    So do we. But you're reacting to the same hyperbole as the falsified study which drove climate policy for over a decade.

    I recall the story about a relatively well known documentary on fracking, I believe it was FrackNation, and how they later admitted they had to stage the whole thing by adding accelerant to the water in order to achieve the "combustible water" effect that proved so shocking.
    baudl wrote: »
    Also we like to be able to actually make aliving of our jobs and not work for less than 5 euros an hour.
    And for quite awhile we've benefited tremendously as European businesses relocated operations in part or in full to America. Meanwhile, as we've enacted similar legislation, our manufacturing sector has appropriately shifted operations elsewhere.

    You can't raise the cost of labor and magically expect to keep people employed. It doesn't work that way, not even in Europe.

    Even here in STO, we're reminded of the not-quite-hidden cost of regulations. There was a thread recently on the amount of revenue Cryptic generated off R&D promo pack sales the first night they were available. The OP's assumption was that Cryptic made $50k that night; regardless of how much they actually made, that argument was countered by the truth that that $50k would maybe cover $25k in salaries, given all the additional costs Cryptic must pay on that $25k in salaries.
    baudl wrote: »
    We very much like our socialist way of life and what you need is a good dose of our superior educational system yourself, then you wouldn't be telling us such nonsense.
    I'd have thought you Euros would realize by now that human nature is what it is. No amount of wishing it wasn't so will make it change.

    Besides, Europe has more than its share of issues. You're not being honest with yourself if you think otherwise. Rising religious tensions, including large populations of Sharia adherents, Greece and its similarly profligate cousins in southern Europe, an increasingly aggressive Russia, and the presumed end of American military aid...you're in for a rough 21st century.
    "Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
  • edited March 2015
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  • baudlbaudl Member Posts: 4,060 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    *total bull*****

    you are basically factually wrong on everything you wrote there. I mean sure it is your opinion, but not reality.
    Sure in the US your opinion is supported by mainstream media and by the people around you, but does this mean you are right? No.
    In a country, where manager salaries have increased by an average of 300% percent, and salaries for working class jobs stagnated, you are actually trying to tell me and the rest of the world that labour cost is unaffordable? Really?

    And I'm sure fracking is ok, that is why the CEO of an oil company that did fracking themselves went to court to prohibit drilling near his ranch.
    Or that hundrets of people have filed lawsuits because their water became undrinkable and even unfit to use for showering.

    I mean I know you americans are mostly driven by your primal instincts so human nature is a welcome excuse for doing inhumane things. I think it is a great feat to say that we are above our human nature in the 21th century.

    "Rising religious tensions, including large populations of Sharia adherents, Greece and its similarly profligate cousins in southern Europe, an increasingly aggressive Russia, and the presumed end of American military aid"

    to this I just have to say, WOW!!, but not a surprise coming from a brainwasched conservative like yourself. You actually believe the things you hear on your 24h news networks.

    Please spare me your condescending idiotic rambling about how great the US is. Fact is, it is not, never was, never will be. The only thing it ever achieved was to be the biggest global bully to ever exist.
    Go pro or go home
  • millimidgetmillimidget Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    artan42 wrote: »
    More education should lead to more regulation, remember it was lack of regulation in the US mortgage market that caused the global financial meltdown.
    More education could lead to less need for regulation, as it becomes more difficult to take advantage of Joe Average.

    That mortgage mess was 99% government crafted. Housing legislation from the 70s led to new regulations in the 90s requiring banks to issue loans they knew would have a high degree of default. To achieve its goals, the government was more than happy to endorse sub-prime mortgage lending, actually adjusting regulations to make it possible, and launder everything through government operated financial agencies.

    Neither party is innocent, but the whole scam was crafted by the left; ultimately the real goal was to blow up the housing market, creating the demand for increased government regulation of banks. Dodd-Frank, the resulting legislation, was crafted by two northeastern Democrats, who respectively accepted bribes from a mortgage lender and responded to warnings that the system was at risk with "lets roll the dice on this," mere years before the collapse, and who both went on to respectively step down and choose not to seek re-election immediately following the passing of the financial regulations they wrote (and regulators, not legislators, are still writing, because Dodd-Frank was so vague).

    Besides, I really don't see any value to the European regulatory system; every European who comes over here relates the same tales of the normalcy of bribing European regulators, and many express disbelief that it's not standard operating practice here. That sounds like a failed regulatory state to me, and its expensive.
    "Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
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