careful that is a bit of a violation of rules for posting on here :cool:
Hmm. I read through the TOS, once found, & could find nothing in violation; the quote you referenced contained no names of individuals, shared no personal information, & whether it contained the actual name of a fleet or a parody of one (indeed, a parody of a fleet in itself!) a fleet isn't an individual. Nonetheless, aside from the inclusion of excerpts essential to continuity & convey my point, my entire post was a direct assemblage of communication resulting from the process of filing a complaint & contains no intentional errors or lies, taken directly from my own observation & chatlogs live on my screen; & last but not least, I was directed to take & post the issue in the PWE Forum, as you can read, by the respondent in the course of filing it, an official from PWE. If members of said fleet are uncomfortable with the truth of the post, they only have themselves to blame. If not, it's moot. With all due respects, A Good Day to you, Sir!
Oh dear god, every time someone mentions Subspace Party Amplifiers some idiot has to crawl from under his rock and tell us that having a Subspace Party Amplifier activated near to his character in a PC game is like being assaulted.
Why don't you show me on this doll where the Subspace Party Amplifier touched you, you hyperbole-spewing fantasist?
Get back to Argala and grind, slave!
Seriously, though, whilst I couldn't be bothered less by the Subspace Party Amplifier, in general, though, moving another one's avatar, without their express permission, is normally considered a big no-no in the industry. In Second Life, for example, it's absolutely verboten (unless done under auspices of the very strict RLV rules).
Gabe Newell, you know, the dude from VALVe, went so far as to explain once that they generally don't like to take control away from the player character at all even (like you seen doing stuff in cutscene animations and such).
So, while it doesn't really bother me -- I *love* to dance! -- STO really *is* the odd one out, though, with their Subspace Party Amplifier being allowed to animate other people's toons.
Hmm. I read through the TOS, once found, & could find nothing in violation; the quote you referenced contained no names of individuals, shared no personal information, & whether it contained the actual name of a fleet or a parody of one (indeed, a parody of a fleet in itself!) a fleet isn't an individual. Nonetheless, aside from the inclusion of excerpts essential to continuity & convey my point, my entire post was a direct assemblage of communication resulting from the process of filing a complaint & contains no intentional errors or lies, taken directly from my own observation & chatlogs live on my screen; & last but not least, I was directed to take & post the issue in the PWE Forum, as you can read, by the respondent in the course of filing it, an official from PWE. If members of said fleet are uncomfortable with the truth of the post, they only have themselves to blame. If not, it's moot. With all due respects, A Good Day to you, Sir!
I wouldn't want to speak for anyone. However I think they are quite ok with you posting your communications with the Cryptic GM.
Clearly they where trying to nicely explain, that you where the one in the wrong. I suggest you reflect on your own behavior, I hope you kept things civil. I also hope that you can come to understand that not every culture deals with death in the same way you ware used to. Mr. Nimoy was NOT a vulcan as some seem to think. He was an actor and artist, and by all accounts a loving human being. You where in a public zone, and for many of us when an honored elder passes acting somber about it is disrespectful. Think on that for awhile, I don't wish for any one elses passing in anyway. However in the future should you find yourself in a situation like this one, and we are gathering our Digital pixels. I hope you can find room in your heart to accept other cultures and beliefs.
Leonard Simon Nimoy passed that saddens many of us no doubt. Claiming he is from Vulcan is more then a little out of touch.
Huh? When did I claim Nimoy was from Vulcan??? The character he played for almost 50 years is from Vulcan. Nimoy was an actor, sure, but Spock would not be the Spock we know and love without Nimoy, the man. Not just for his acting talent but Nimoy had a direct influence on how the character was written, the mythos, and so forth.
We're in a game based on the Star Trek universe, where Spock is an important part. Hence we are honoring Spock just as much as Nimoy. And you're right none of us could attend his real-life memorial in person, so for 99.99% of us, this game acts as our substitute.
Just as much as I know there should be no F'ing balloons and disco balls on Vulcan, I know there weren't any at the real thing either.
Most people can understand this and act appropriately, even if they don't understand Jewish tradition.
Some people dislike what happened, some people accept what's happened, some people are like the Westborough Baptist Church, and some people just don't like some people.
I'm waiting until Thursday's update to see what's next in this never-ending discussion.
/ We had just as much right as you to assemble in a public zone and celebrate the passing of Mr. Nimoy. / Perhaps next time instead of wasting GM and your own time, you will show a little more respect and tolerance. LLAP
Respect & tolerance is every bit a 2-way street. :cool:
Huh? When did I claim Nimoy was from Vulcan??? The character he played for almost 50 years is from Vulcan. Nimoy was an actor, sure, but Spock would not be the Spock we know and love without Nimoy, the man. Not just for his acting talent but Nimoy had a direct influence on how the character was written, the mythos, and so forth.
We're in a game based on the Star Trek universe, where Spock is an important part. Hence we are honoring Spock just as much as Nimoy. And you're right none of us could attend his real-life memorial in person, so for 99.99% of us, this game acts as our substitute.
Just as much as I know there should be no F'ing balloons and disco balls on Vulcan, I know there weren't any at the real thing either.
Most people can understand this and act appropriately, even if they don't understand Jewish tradition.
You prove my point... Mr. Nimoy is who we where there to morn. Not Mr. Spock. People of both sides "those wanting to stand in there dress uniforms and reenact ST II" and those wanting to celebrate the incredible life of Mr. Nimoy. Had every right to be there. It made sense to head to Vulcan, your right its the role we came to know him for.
Insisting that balloons and dancing don't belong at a Memorial is biased by your culture. In mine it is very much the norm to hold a wake, where I will admit balloons aren't often included. However partying in general is, displays of joy are very much normal.
As far as Jewish faith goes... you pretty much have no right to morn him at all. Of course most celebs don't do public memorials, however in the case of Mr. Nimoy it would be grossly inappropriate as it would be contrary to his faith. Jewish tradition sees death as a joyful time. They have 3 morning periods, which are all about the family. The faith discourages excesses grief and the idea is to allow the mourners (family) to gradually return to a normal life. They have an interesting faith, if you don't know a lot about it you should do some reading. They have some very nice ideas on the subject.
Mr Nimoy practiced Judaism yes, but he was also a staunch promoter of the equal rights of all people. He might wish, as was the tradition of his people, for his physical service to be attended by only a small number of close friends and relations within the faith but he would NOT at all object to or try to prevent others of other traditions to act according to their own beliefs and traditions. The man invented the concept of IDIC and believed in it as a principle worth following in real life. So if Christians wanted to pray for him, or Wiccans to hold a ritual in his honor, or secular people to gather in vigils and memorials for him, I believe he would have accepted them in the benevolent spirit in which they were intended. He was a man who actively promoted tolerance among all people and believed his ways were right for him, not for everyone else. He respected the ways of others as he wanted respect for his own.
So I don't for a moment think he'd have had any issue with memorials or vigils in his honor by any people of any faith or no faith at all, in virtual space or the real world.
I agree mostly (he for sure wouldn't have wanted anything in real life in the way of a public memorial it is sort of contrarty to his religious beliefs) , and very well said. This was the point I was trying to make. You articulated it well, thank you.
Everyone that went to Vulcan was free to remember him as they saw fit. If I choose to do that by dancing with some friends, and pop some party favours as we talked about the mans life. Why is that less valid then... people dressing there Pixels in ST 2 uniforms and reenacting some Movie Funeral scene.
They are both valid... I didn't intruded on them (and most didn't... and I admit some may have... just as some of them sent some of us nasty PMs that where boarder line illegal). I think we have rehashed it enough in enough threads.
We all just need to accept each others views on the matter, and be happy we will have Mr. Nimoys great artistic works with us forever.
If you understand the Vulcan way, you understand that mourning at a loss of life is to say that life was wasted.
Careful with your Spock quotes. Are you forgetting this:
"On that day I shall mourn." - In reference to Flint's inevitable passing. "Flint", aka Da Vinci, Brahms, Solomon, Alexander, Lazarus, Methuselah, Merlin, Abramson, etc.
"Requiem for Methuselah"
That, my friend, is not a life that was wasted. And yet Spock says he will mourn the end of such a life.
And yes, while Vulcans wouldn't cry and show outward displays of sadness, their mourning would be somber reflection on the life that was. It most definitely would not include disco music.
I don't know why I'm even explaining this. :rolleyes:
And yes, while Vulcans wouldn't cry and show outward displays of sadness, their mourning would be somber reflection on the life that was. It most definitely would not include disco music.
I don't know why I'm even explaining this. :rolleyes:
Thing is I'm not a Vulcan... cause you know there not real.
Vulcan is also not real... it is a representation of a fictional place, within another fictional place in STO.
So why you think I should be role playing a Vulcan if I choose to take my Pixel avatar to said fictional place is beyond me.
I don't really care how Vulcans would morn... cause I'm not one. Neither was Mr. Nimoy.
Saying Vulcan is no place for non Vulcan tradtions is strange and creepy... and I mean no offense. If you feel like you would like to be there and act in a manner you feel would be in keeping with role playing a Vulcan or anything else... or simply acting as you would in RL. Great that's up to you. I'm not sure how you or anyone else feels they have some moral authority, and get to demand how I morn or play a video game, or how I may choose to morn within a game.
I don't know, I guess the simple question is: if there was a real funeral being held on Vulcan, would your parents be proud of how you acted at it? or would they be ashamed.
Aren't you judgmental. lol
My family would have no reason to be upset with me for attending a wake... participating in one... and encouraging others to participate in the same.
Believe it or not, for many people not being joyful when celebrating the passing of honored family or friends is disrespectful as well.
When my time comes I expect my kids to take a short time to shed a tear or two, and then to take more time to drink a few toasts, enjoy swapping I hope a few good stories with friends and other family. Your thinking that in R/L the only way to morn someone is to wear black and be quite is wrong.
Originally Posted by cestovatelka :
he's a member of Starfleet Dental Fleet, & from the Zone Chat, they were in all of the instances, annoying & trolling & making things generally very stressful to so many.
careful that is a bit of a violation of rules for posting on here :cool:
Yep, its funny though how the moderators fully support that particular fleet you have mentioned to continually disrespect other players and the game itself.
Odd how that works :mad:
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Greywolf Taskforce - Officer of the Fleet
Thing is I'm not a Vulcan... cause you know there not real.
Vulcan is also not real... it is a representation of a fictional place, within another fictional place in STO.
So why you think I should be role playing a Vulcan if I choose to take my Pixel avatar to said fictional place is beyond me.
I don't really care how Vulcans would morn... cause I'm not one. Neither was Mr. Nimoy.
Saying Vulcan is no place for non Vulcan tradtions is strange and creepy... and I mean no offense. If you feel like you would like to be there and act in a manner you feel would be in keeping with role playing a Vulcan or anything else... or simply acting as you would in RL. Great that's up to you. I'm not sure how you or anyone else feels they have some moral authority, and get to demand how I morn or play a video game, or how I may choose to morn within a game.
OK since you just don't get it, this is my last reply on this subject:
Neither Vulcan nor Jew is going to be dancing around or playing disco music at a funeral. I don't demand anything, but I will decry those that break the conventions of propriety yes, even in this virtual world.
Indeed I have been dropping my Us of late. To seem more American, thinking that would help me get though to some of them. I guess that is one word you folks haven't yet gotten lazy with. My mistake.
As for social conventions... I and others have explained how you are incorrect in your thinking. As it is clear I will not entice you into a more tolerant view of the world. I will take my leave, its like arguing with WBC people, they just don't get it.
Pff... Disco Balls as a way to pay respect my TRIBBLE. I would have believed it if they would have announced "Vulcan #1 & 2 Party memorial don't like it switch instance" or just went to Club ESD in the first place. Nobody would have bothered. But not only they don't; they went out of their way visiting as much instances as possible & throw the balls in to all directions.
That was not one bit for memorial reasons; that was pure trolling. They know it, we know it and I cannot believe the devs, at least the ones that where there, don't.
I think that it's not usually a good idea to imagine that you know other people's motives. You're meant to infer motives from actions, not to project and pretend.
It's most often a problem when people project malicious motives onto others. It's the opposite of "thinking the best of people."
I can't speak to everyone on Vulcan, but for my own part, I wanted to celebrate the life of Leonard Nimoy, a man who didn't just play the logical Spock, but also made music, who danced, who was an artist and who brightened the world and made it better for and inspired so many people. So many people!
Lighting memorial spheres in his honor is like the keeping lit of an eternal flame of celebratory remembrance.
If you think it sounds better: They did their most to get as misunderstood as possible by as much other players as possible for even after lots of complaints they visited all possible instances just for the sake of starting the balls and leaving instead of gathering together with like-minded on one instance to mourn in their own specific ways.
Even if this were true, which I have no way of knowing whether it is, since for my own part, I spent time on Vulcan #1 advertising the celebration of Mr Nimoy's life and helping organize, what difference does it make?
Surely it is better to forgive your brother than you hate him or hold grudges? I've been subjected to awful abuse before in this game, but I don't hold it against anyone.
If anything, it has been a gift, since it has given me the opportunity to forgive another.
in the Lord's Prayer, it is written:
et dimitte nobis debita nostra,
sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris
Familiarly translated to:
"and forgive us our trespasses
as we forgive those who trespass against us."
We can also find wisdom in Shakespeare who wrote of Mercy:
"It is twice blessed:
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes."
What it comes down to is this - we all have a choice. We can choose to nurture grudges, to be hateful, spiteful and bitter, or else choose to be charitable, to forgive, to be merciful and generous.
Hate is a far too strong emotion to be used against anybody usually easy avoidable just because he is rude & insensitive. True hate has to be earned IRL and as of yet only one individual came even just close to it.
This went too religious and off-topic for my taste. I already said what I had to say based on the 3 hour experience I had on Vulcan.
Careful with your Spock quotes. Are you forgetting this:
"On that day I shall mourn." - In reference to Flint's inevitable passing. "Flint", aka Da Vinci, Brahms, Solomon, Alexander, Lazarus, Methuselah, Merlin, Abramson, etc.
"Requiem for Methuselah"
That, my friend, is not a life that was wasted. And yet Spock says he will mourn the end of such a life.
s:
To a human, the idea might seem ludicrous. But we are talking about Vulcans here, and they take a longer view.
Review the situation.
An immortal falls prey to the temptation of his emotions once, and by doing so reduces a lifespan that could have lasted millions of years to scant remaining decades? And in the end, the very object his emotions told him to pursue proves a bauble beyond his reach?
This isn't just a situation Vulcan would describe as a "waste".
No, squandering a million-year lifespan over a fleeting emotion would become a Vulcan parable. Flint forsakes the firm foundation of logic by leaving his homeworld, seeking an imagined perfection through emotional experience. Even its dramatic end - where unrestrained emotions literally kill Rayna - is perfect for a cautionary tale.
For as long as Vulcan civilization endures, parents will instruct their children about the Death Of Methuselah, and how easy it is to fall away from the path of logic, and how dire the consequences can be.
So yes, I would say (from a Vulcan point of view), that Flint did indeed waste the vast majority of his life. The moment he left Earth, his fate was sealed.
That can all be somewhat solved if they had a "serious-mode" UI overlay in several different flavors: TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, Current (24XX), Movie, or Motion Picture.
The theme flavors simply affect what you you see everyone wearing on the ground to match that of the time period you selected. Odyssey/Bortesqu'/New Rom Republic wear for the "Current Timeline" setting.
/snip
Nah...thatd be too much work...and wouldnt be worth it.
My headcanon is that we're at a future in which time is ****ed up and every race is friends already and all missions are just what happened "in the before time" lol
I'll be there 24/7 for the next year, getting angrier and angrier and angrier as other people ruin my vigil by talking, wearing the wrong uniform, carrying weapons or having their pets on display.
I know I never met Leonard Nimoy, never spoke to him and never interacted with him in any way at all but I loved him like a brother.
Comments
You don't know Star Trek canon, I'm afraid.
To quote Spock himself, "Loss of life is to be mourned, but only if the life was wasted."
The most cheerful Vulcan music is played at funerals.
But if you want to say that Nimoy's life was wasted, go ahead. I wouldn't agree.
Hmm. I read through the TOS, once found, & could find nothing in violation; the quote you referenced contained no names of individuals, shared no personal information, & whether it contained the actual name of a fleet or a parody of one (indeed, a parody of a fleet in itself!) a fleet isn't an individual. Nonetheless, aside from the inclusion of excerpts essential to continuity & convey my point, my entire post was a direct assemblage of communication resulting from the process of filing a complaint & contains no intentional errors or lies, taken directly from my own observation & chatlogs live on my screen; & last but not least, I was directed to take & post the issue in the PWE Forum, as you can read, by the respondent in the course of filing it, an official from PWE. If members of said fleet are uncomfortable with the truth of the post, they only have themselves to blame. If not, it's moot. With all due respects, A Good Day to you, Sir!
Get back to Argala and grind, slave!
Seriously, though, whilst I couldn't be bothered less by the Subspace Party Amplifier, in general, though, moving another one's avatar, without their express permission, is normally considered a big no-no in the industry. In Second Life, for example, it's absolutely verboten (unless done under auspices of the very strict RLV rules).
Gabe Newell, you know, the dude from VALVe, went so far as to explain once that they generally don't like to take control away from the player character at all even (like you seen doing stuff in cutscene animations and such).
So, while it doesn't really bother me -- I *love* to dance! -- STO really *is* the odd one out, though, with their Subspace Party Amplifier being allowed to animate other people's toons.
I wouldn't want to speak for anyone. However I think they are quite ok with you posting your communications with the Cryptic GM.
Clearly they where trying to nicely explain, that you where the one in the wrong. I suggest you reflect on your own behavior, I hope you kept things civil. I also hope that you can come to understand that not every culture deals with death in the same way you ware used to. Mr. Nimoy was NOT a vulcan as some seem to think. He was an actor and artist, and by all accounts a loving human being. You where in a public zone, and for many of us when an honored elder passes acting somber about it is disrespectful. Think on that for awhile, I don't wish for any one elses passing in anyway. However in the future should you find yourself in a situation like this one, and we are gathering our Digital pixels. I hope you can find room in your heart to accept other cultures and beliefs.
We're in a game based on the Star Trek universe, where Spock is an important part. Hence we are honoring Spock just as much as Nimoy. And you're right none of us could attend his real-life memorial in person, so for 99.99% of us, this game acts as our substitute.
Just as much as I know there should be no F'ing balloons and disco balls on Vulcan, I know there weren't any at the real thing either.
Most people can understand this and act appropriately, even if they don't understand Jewish tradition.
If you understand the Vulcan way, you understand that mourning at a loss of life is to say that life was wasted.
I'm waiting until Thursday's update to see what's next in this never-ending discussion.
Respect & tolerance is every bit a 2-way street. :cool:
You prove my point... Mr. Nimoy is who we where there to morn. Not Mr. Spock. People of both sides "those wanting to stand in there dress uniforms and reenact ST II" and those wanting to celebrate the incredible life of Mr. Nimoy. Had every right to be there. It made sense to head to Vulcan, your right its the role we came to know him for.
Insisting that balloons and dancing don't belong at a Memorial is biased by your culture. In mine it is very much the norm to hold a wake, where I will admit balloons aren't often included. However partying in general is, displays of joy are very much normal.
As far as Jewish faith goes... you pretty much have no right to morn him at all. Of course most celebs don't do public memorials, however in the case of Mr. Nimoy it would be grossly inappropriate as it would be contrary to his faith. Jewish tradition sees death as a joyful time. They have 3 morning periods, which are all about the family. The faith discourages excesses grief and the idea is to allow the mourners (family) to gradually return to a normal life. They have an interesting faith, if you don't know a lot about it you should do some reading. They have some very nice ideas on the subject.
I agree mostly (he for sure wouldn't have wanted anything in real life in the way of a public memorial it is sort of contrarty to his religious beliefs) , and very well said. This was the point I was trying to make. You articulated it well, thank you.
Everyone that went to Vulcan was free to remember him as they saw fit. If I choose to do that by dancing with some friends, and pop some party favours as we talked about the mans life. Why is that less valid then... people dressing there Pixels in ST 2 uniforms and reenacting some Movie Funeral scene.
They are both valid... I didn't intruded on them (and most didn't... and I admit some may have... just as some of them sent some of us nasty PMs that where boarder line illegal). I think we have rehashed it enough in enough threads.
We all just need to accept each others views on the matter, and be happy we will have Mr. Nimoys great artistic works with us forever.
"On that day I shall mourn." - In reference to Flint's inevitable passing. "Flint", aka Da Vinci, Brahms, Solomon, Alexander, Lazarus, Methuselah, Merlin, Abramson, etc.
"Requiem for Methuselah"
That, my friend, is not a life that was wasted. And yet Spock says he will mourn the end of such a life.
And yes, while Vulcans wouldn't cry and show outward displays of sadness, their mourning would be somber reflection on the life that was. It most definitely would not include disco music.
I don't know why I'm even explaining this. :rolleyes:
Thing is I'm not a Vulcan... cause you know there not real.
Vulcan is also not real... it is a representation of a fictional place, within another fictional place in STO.
So why you think I should be role playing a Vulcan if I choose to take my Pixel avatar to said fictional place is beyond me.
I don't really care how Vulcans would morn... cause I'm not one. Neither was Mr. Nimoy.
Saying Vulcan is no place for non Vulcan tradtions is strange and creepy... and I mean no offense. If you feel like you would like to be there and act in a manner you feel would be in keeping with role playing a Vulcan or anything else... or simply acting as you would in RL. Great that's up to you. I'm not sure how you or anyone else feels they have some moral authority, and get to demand how I morn or play a video game, or how I may choose to morn within a game.
Aren't you judgmental. lol
My family would have no reason to be upset with me for attending a wake... participating in one... and encouraging others to participate in the same.
Believe it or not, for many people not being joyful when celebrating the passing of honored family or friends is disrespectful as well.
When my time comes I expect my kids to take a short time to shed a tear or two, and then to take more time to drink a few toasts, enjoy swapping I hope a few good stories with friends and other family. Your thinking that in R/L the only way to morn someone is to wear black and be quite is wrong.
he's a member of Starfleet Dental Fleet, & from the Zone Chat, they were in all of the instances, annoying & trolling & making things generally very stressful to so many.
Yep, its funny though how the moderators fully support that particular fleet you have mentioned to continually disrespect other players and the game itself.
Odd how that works :mad:
Greywolf Taskforce - Officer of the Fleet
Neither Vulcan nor Jew is going to be dancing around or playing disco music at a funeral. I don't demand anything, but I will decry those that break the conventions of propriety yes, even in this virtual world.
P.S. It's mourn. :rolleyes:
Indeed I have been dropping my Us of late. To seem more American, thinking that would help me get though to some of them. I guess that is one word you folks haven't yet gotten lazy with. My mistake.
As for social conventions... I and others have explained how you are incorrect in your thinking. As it is clear I will not entice you into a more tolerant view of the world. I will take my leave, its like arguing with WBC people, they just don't get it.
That was not one bit for memorial reasons; that was pure trolling. They know it, we know it and I cannot believe the devs, at least the ones that where there, don't.
He did on specific request of the GM he talked to.
It's not one of those words.
That just sounds disgusting.
If you think it sounds better: They did their most to get as misunderstood as possible by as much other players as possible for even after lots of complaints they visited all possible instances just for the sake of starting the balls and leaving instead of gathering together with like-minded on one instance to mourn in their own specific ways.
Its not projecting anything. Its how it happened.
Hate is a far too strong emotion to be used against anybody usually easy avoidable just because he is rude & insensitive. True hate has to be earned IRL and as of yet only one individual came even just close to it.
This went too religious and off-topic for my taste. I already said what I had to say based on the 3 hour experience I had on Vulcan.
To a human, the idea might seem ludicrous. But we are talking about Vulcans here, and they take a longer view.
Review the situation.
An immortal falls prey to the temptation of his emotions once, and by doing so reduces a lifespan that could have lasted millions of years to scant remaining decades? And in the end, the very object his emotions told him to pursue proves a bauble beyond his reach?
This isn't just a situation Vulcan would describe as a "waste".
No, squandering a million-year lifespan over a fleeting emotion would become a Vulcan parable. Flint forsakes the firm foundation of logic by leaving his homeworld, seeking an imagined perfection through emotional experience. Even its dramatic end - where unrestrained emotions literally kill Rayna - is perfect for a cautionary tale.
For as long as Vulcan civilization endures, parents will instruct their children about the Death Of Methuselah, and how easy it is to fall away from the path of logic, and how dire the consequences can be.
So yes, I would say (from a Vulcan point of view), that Flint did indeed waste the vast majority of his life. The moment he left Earth, his fate was sealed.
Nah...thatd be too much work...and wouldnt be worth it.
My headcanon is that we're at a future in which time is ****ed up and every race is friends already and all missions are just what happened "in the before time" lol
Its not perfect but it works for me. Lol
Interested in Role Playing? Join the 12th Fleet Science division!
I know I never met Leonard Nimoy, never spoke to him and never interacted with him in any way at all but I loved him like a brother.
This is what you all sound like. Get a life.
Free Tibet!