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without meaningful pvp whats the point of ship building?

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  • eulifdaviseulifdavis Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I'm still waiting for your meaningful post and since you didn't disagree with the OP I assume you agree

    do you hear yourself?
    Stating that someone has a different point of view is redundant - it's obvious by reading their post. Since you didn't add anything beyond that statement, you didn't actually contribute anything meaningful or useful in that particular post. In other words, I am factually correct. You're just trying (and failing) to nit-pick.

    EDIT: And I'm done with this conversation (at least for now). It's turning into TRIBBLE-for-tat, and I don't have the time for it. I've made my point, and it was apparently quite effective because several of you are still trying (and mostly failing) to deconstruct it and find a flaw.

    Have fun!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • dylantrinidydylantrinidy Member Posts: 313 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    eulifdavis wrote: »
    Your description is so incredibly vague (as is your laughable attempt at WRITING a SOUND that I cannot answer your question. Take that as a victory if you like, but the question is a poor one at best.



    I already answered this. It's a subnuke, you use Science team...

    coming from someone who says if you dont do much dps you cant fight
  • dylantrinidydylantrinidy Member Posts: 313 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    eulifdavis wrote: »
    Stating that someone has a different point of view is redundant - it's obvious by reading their post. Since you didn't add anything beyond that statement, you didn't actually contribute anything meaningful or useful in that particular post. In other words, I am factually correct. You're just trying (and failing) to nit-pick.

    EDIT: And I'm done with this conversation (at least for now). It's turning into TRIBBLE-for-tat, and I don't have the time for it. I've made my point, and it was apparently quite effective because several of you are still trying (and mostly failing) to deconstruct it and find a flaw.

    Have fun!

    yes keep telling yourself your right and leave
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    So tldr version: I avoid pvp to keep my heart clean and save others of dealing with a thorny rose.

    So you also close Zone chat and have your Privacy settings so folks can't send tells too, right? :D
  • gfreeman98gfreeman98 Member Posts: 1,200 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    yes that would be the problem pvp has not changed most want change
    OK, so what do you want changed? New maps? New mechanics? Other?

    Before you tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, I can tell you I played a fair bit of PvP in the first couple of years, mainly in PUGs but also some with Fleetmates. (I never liked Ground too much and thus didn't play too much Ground PvP.)

    I have an alt that I leveled up almost exclusively by PvP. It was great fun until he hit level 50. Before then your opponents are mostly evenly matched, and you can get some actual competition. But once I hit 50 the curve went way, way up.

    I think what killed Space PvP here was two things:

    1) Not much variety. Not counting Ker'rat, the same two maps get boring. We were clamoring for new PvP maps back from the beginning.

    2) And this is the big one: The dedicated, hardcore PvPers, that run in premade groups - aka the e-peen squads. Not just tough, but impossibly tough. It was a good fight when we could get one kill in. 15-0 was the norm. I'm sure they loved it, yukking it up and patting each other on the back for wiping out another n00b. Bravo!

    Now you're going to say how getting wiped out 15-0 over and over again should motivate people to strive to get better, bla bla. Heard it all before. No matter what gear, tactics, or teamwork we could muster when we faced that bunch it was game over. That's no fun, especially when they have to throw in taunting and other childish behavior. That is what drove away all the casual to moderate players. How'd that work out for ya? Now they lament the empty queues.

    But you want Cryptic to devote development resources to something almost no one plays any more. I don't think that is a realistic expectation.

    I agree it's sad too, since PvP could be great fun. Some of the best times were having a good, evenly matched battle where both sides struggled to get a kill. Even when we lost it was fun since we had a respectful fight. The e-peeners killed that. So again, I say: Bravo!
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  • notrealednanotrealedna Member Posts: 1,028
    edited January 2015
    Please I have been asking this for a few years now and the only answer i get is "so you can do stf's faster the next time"

    Is that the reason to buy a ship and gear it up? because there is nothing after 60 except spec point grinding and why grind spec points? so I can do stf's even faster?

    Sad state of affairs

    Ive been asking this for years and I havent got a response yet.They kinda killed the game with their pve money grab thing and game is almost gone and I've yet to know why people invest so much just to kill npcs....boggles the mind.
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  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited January 2015
    So you also close Zone chat and have your Privacy settings so folks can't send tells too, right? :D

    Lol, zone chat is a cesspool of trolls, political and religious discussions, and spam. I have a special channel just to turn it on for PvP maps because it's just not worth having it otherwise.

    As to the rest of the discussion, when it comes to PvE, you just stack on as much DPS as you can and FAW your way through everything.

    vs

    For PvP you make builds that try to achieve team success, or at least, which keep you alive while doing something meaningful to contribute to the team.

    PvEers are not mean, but anyone that has done PvE long enough and then started doing PvP knows that PvE is way too easy. Yes, some PvE maps require teamwork to achieve success, but it still boils down to surviving and dishing out DPS.
  • dylantrinidydylantrinidy Member Posts: 313 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    gfreeman98 wrote: »
    OK, so what do you want changed? New maps? New mechanics? Other?

    Before you tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, I can tell you I played a fair bit of PvP in the first couple of years, mainly in PUGs but also some with Fleetmates. (I never liked Ground too much and thus didn't play too much Ground PvP.)

    I have an alt that I leveled up almost exclusively by PvP. It was great fun until he hit level 50. Before then your opponents are mostly evenly matched, and you can get some actual competition. But once I hit 50 the curve went way, way up.

    I think what killed Space PvP here was two things:

    1) Not much variety. Not counting Ker'rat, the same two maps get boring. We were clamoring for new PvP maps back from the beginning.

    2) And this is the big one: The dedicated, hardcore PvPers, that run in premade groups - aka the e-peen squads. Not just tough, but impossibly tough. It was a good fight when we could get one kill in. 15-0 was the norm. I'm sure they loved it, yukking it up and patting each other on the back for wiping out another n00b. Bravo!

    Now you're going to say how getting wiped out 15-0 over and over again should motivate people to strive to get better, bla bla. Heard it all before. No matter what gear, tactics, or teamwork we could muster when we faced that bunch it was game over. That's no fun, especially when they have to throw in taunting and other childish behavior. That is what drove away all the casual to moderate players. How'd that work out for ya? Now they lament the empty queues.

    But you want Cryptic to devote development resources to something almost no one plays any more. I don't think that is a realistic expectation.

    I agree it's sad too, since PvP could be great fun. Some of the best times were having a good, evenly matched battle where both sides struggled to get a kill. Even when we lost it was fun since we had a respectful fight. The e-peeners killed that. So again, I say: Bravo!

    I don't disagree with you

    Add variety and random player queues

    as for it being realistic cryptic is not helping the situation by stringing us along with their "big pvp update on the list" just come out and tells us there will be no further development and end this argument
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    gonalius wrote: »
    And playing against another person is different, because...? What? It makes you feel superior to them?

    Quite an Infioriority Complex you have, don't you?

    The game is very unbalanced and PVP right now is really out of whack as a result. DR has pushed that unbalance to never before seen heights in Power Creep Online. It makes LOR look like a perfectly balanced addition to the game.

    That said, traditionally in STO's past, PVP was the only place where you could push for a larger challenge in STO.

    NPCs are dumb. Do not try to even challenge that, because the only way there is any challenge in PVE are from the following:
    * Large HP Mook NPCs that barely do abilities.
    * Terribly thought out multiplayer missions/instances with terribly thought out Victory Conditions.
    * "Boss" NPCs with cheese attacks.

    And that's it.

    But a Player on the other hand?... That's different. A player has a say in what happens and will do whatever he can to beat you. He'll be popping abilities just like you would. ENG, TAC, SCI BOFF and Captain abilities. Attack, Defensive, Repair abilities. Evasive Maneuvers. Hazard Emitters to clear the DOTs or other Hazard you laid on him. He'll come at you with shield piercing attacks. It all depends on what the 2 parties do. Unlike PVE, where the NPCs just sit there for you to repeatedly slap them across the face and for you to flex your muscles afterwards.

    Really? What's the point in celebrating in beating up the crippled TRIBBLE kid that passes for NPCs in this game?

    Also, in between PVE and PVP, did you know there's more possible viable builds, aspects that you can use in PVP? How so? Example:

    Well, for one, Tanks/High ENG ships are not treasured in PVE. Repeatedly throughout these boards, people say (including myself) that for running these missions and instances, Tanks are not needed because DPS is more important to help ensure you meet those Victory Time Limits, which emphases you burning stuff down quickly, or prevent enemy NPCs from reaching something.

    On the other hand, a very tough Cruiser can be the bulwark in a PVP team, shelling out lifesaving repairs to friendly teammates. This allows the Escorts and such to focus more on Attack knowing they have support. And the well played Cruiser would be tough to bring down. You could ignore him but then again, he's the TRIBBLE that keeps throwing out powerful repairs on guys that you were close to killing.

    "But wait!" you say... "That can happen in PVE also!"... It sure can, but higher end PVE content, as I mentioned before, pushes DPS to meet victory within those time limits. While in PVP, time isn't really a factor as much as Cryptic pushes it in PVE.

    I still vividly recall a 5v5 Arena match long ago FvK on the queues with a PVP PUG, one of the Feds was flying an Atrox. The ship's damage output wasn't a worry but the Sci abilities he was pumping was a concern, on top of his 2 hangars. He was savvy to read a fight and knew when to pop something like Grav Well, Tractor Beam on you while you were tied up with fighting someone else. With APO on cooldown, Evasive Maneuvers burned, his TB's were death for you since it pinned you in place for easy killing by everyone else. So we felt that we needed to kill him as a priority. A bunch of us try to focus on him but he simply would not go down. In between the ENG and SCI abilities that the Atrox is very high in, he just wouldn't break. And once we were getting through, someone else on his team sent a timely cross heal to keep him alive. To make matters worse, us focusing on this unkillable Atrox allowed the rest of his team to focus on us 1 by 1 and kill us piecemeal while we were focused.

    On and on. And time wasn't a factor, just getting the kills. And everyone had their role to play. The TAC oriented ships for the firepower to kill. The ENG oriented ships to be the solid base of the team and keep everyone alive. The SCI oriented ships to debuff, CC, drain, or whatever on the enemy. And every other ship in between. They're all more viable.

    Unlike PVE where the questions to ask if a ship is good is this:
    * What TAC BOFF seating count does it have?
    * How many TAC Consoles does it have?
    * If an ENG Cruiser, does it at least have LtCdr TAC on it?

    Now, as I said, the game is terribly unbalanced right now. But traditionally, you can do more things in PVP and still matter while the only thing that truly, truly matters in PVE, is the DPS Race.

    P.S. - Cloaks play a far larger role in PVP than they do in PVE. Not to mention those truly fancy Stealth Detection related tools Feds have have a far, FAR larger impact in PVP than the Zero impact they have in PVE. Most esp so since so many ships have cloaks now. Just more examples.

    Edit again: Traditionally in PVP, I felt, far, FAR better when I saw my team was mixed in ship composition. Cruisers, Escorts, Science, Carriers... a balanced mix. I was happy to see an ENG heavy ship like a Negh'Var. This is in sharp contrast to PVE... I was more happy to see an Escort or TAC Cruiser on my team than I would seeing something like a Galaxy-class or Negh'Var class.

    That is a huge, fundamental difference in what's viable and what's not in PVP and PVE.
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  • hyperionx09hyperionx09 Member Posts: 1,709 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    lucho80 wrote: »
    [...] when it comes to PvE, you just stack on as much DPS as you can and FAW your way through everything.

    vs

    For PvP you make builds that try to achieve team success, or at least, which keep you alive while doing something meaningful to contribute to the team.

    How about we be a bit more fair to both sides rather than being biased:

    PvE - Building to complete missions and queues fast enough to gain the marks/EC/Dil/etc necessary to improve those builds for eventual new content, and to not be a complete liability in pugs/teams. As well, necessary in order to even complete in PvP if so desired.

    vs

    PvP - Building to be the best at taking down as many other players before you yourself die; with or without a competent team. And if with a competent team, building to not become a liability. However, still requires being able to have efficient enough PvE builds to build up your PvP builds in the first place.

    Common to both for any level of success:
    DPS, costly equipment, and smart planning. And competent teammates if in a team.

    PvP is simply an extra to PvE for this game, and a number of PvP builds are reliant on stuff gained via PvE work. Even stupid-silly planned rainbow boats can do more DPS than random builds thrown together with a box of scraps from Mission rewards. STO can survive without PvP, but it cannot survive without PvE.

    Disclaimer: I do not mind PvP (participated in some silly friendly ones vs fleet mates solely for fun and ship testing; and I enjoy it more when it's personal (playing as an individual) in other games such as Destiny, Halo, or LoL), but deluding oneself into thinking that it has to be the end-all for a game like this is simply silly. Moreso if people do it only to flaunt some ephemeral superiority over someone else because that's the only gratification they can get.
  • rosetyler51rosetyler51 Member Posts: 1,631 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    So you also close Zone chat and have your Privacy settings so folks can't send tells too, right? :D

    Yes about Zone chat and if someone sends a mean tell I will take it as a sign to dish it right back
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Yes about Zone chat and if someone sends a mean tell I will take it as a sign to dish it right back

    It's just funny, imho, cause I've joked for years about having Ker'rat zone chat available as a separate app so folks could view it anywhere - phone, tablet, smart TV, webpage, etc - but I've actually deleted all my Fed toons in the past because I kept forgetting to turn off Zone before going to ESD to train a BOFF or something.
  • nimbullnimbull Member Posts: 1,564 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    ashkrik23 wrote: »
    This game does not revolve around PVP.

    Apparently it revolves around Argala these days. :D
    Green people don't have to be.... little.
  • scarlingscarling Member Posts: 708 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    He's got a good point at the least. A mmo without PVP is extremely boring and doesnt have much of point beyond reaching level cap and fitting your characters. After that, it is the same old stuff over and over and over and over. At least in PVP every opponent, every battle, every war brings in a new challenge. Its completely unpredictable and will make you think twice about using your same old cookie cutter DPS builds, in favor of controlling and debuffing skills or dare I even say it because its DPS blasphemy... Spike damage builds. I'd love a Fleet vs Fleet system like other games have a guild vs guild system. Would be awesome. As things are right now, I'm not exactly sure what I'm going to do after I get done fitting all my Alts. Alot of people lone wolf this game and arent very sociable. I think a PVP system would even help that out. It always seemed to me that games with guild PVP systems brought on a more social atmosphere within the guild and also a competitive spirit, that I down right miss in this game.
  • scarlingscarling Member Posts: 708 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Moreso if people do it only to flaunt some ephemeral superiority over someone else because that's the only gratification they can get.

    Sounds like DPS league to me.
  • scarlingscarling Member Posts: 708 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    woodwhity wrote: »
    You know there is a dps league to compare one another, and while its not a direct pvp-contest, it could be labeled indirect pvp.

    This made me cringe in a way I never thought possible. "Indirect pvp" is not PVP at all.
  • scarlingscarling Member Posts: 708 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    eulifdavis wrote: »
    Take a 30k or 40k DPS FaW build into a PvP encounter, and you'll get a lot of kills. PvP is just a DPS race with different minimum requirements, for the very reasons you listed. Players don't follow the script, so you can't reliably crowd-control them, and when DPS racing is involved, you can't expect to reliably tank or out-heal them. What's left is "kill him before he kills me" - a DPS race.

    PvP is just "who has the biggest guns?", nothing more.

    mmm DPSer enters the ring, kill them with their own DPS... Feedback pulse. Or maybe disable their weapons, or maybe debuff their damage, or maybe disable their shields and go straight for hull. or maybe beef up your resists. Just thinking a bit helps. If PVP was a DPS race, why are science vessels so feared in PVP?
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    patrickngo wrote: »
    You're missing the other part-'What it means'. Subnuke doesn't appear out of nowhere like a drifting cloud of suck. It means you're targeted and you don't know where.

    a casual would hit sci team-but he'd also hit EPTE or EPTS, and immediately hit Evasive manuevers (or wait for the tractor-beam and the de-cloaking sound)

    The "Whirr" is the sound of me buffing before I decloak. You can HEAR IT if you're listening, it means "I see you and I'm within ten K of you."

    It means get your EPTS and tac-team ready, and be ready to hit evasive.

    If you have a "Mine" it's a good time to drop it, there is a Bird of Prey on your tail and he's getting ready to strike.

    this is stuff even the casuals who frequent places like Ker'rat and N'Vak learn, the hardcore PvP'ers (esp. feddies) have actual tricks they use in those two situations, beyond the root fundamentals like "Engage Science Team" or "RSP" (which, as one player has for a ship name "Won't save you".)

    I've seen Thissler, Scora, Zelda, etc. turn BFAW dps machines into respawns in C&H, Ker'rat, and Arenas with ease, I've had to be 'lucky' and by lucky, I mean "fingers go where they're told when they're told and not a tenth of a second later" to do it myself.

    at the same time, I've seen in pvp, guys with crappier ships than mine who 'tank' fire that would easily annihilate your DPS focued builds, and y'know what?


    They get kills anyway.

    In PvE, it's all about the build-your gear (and following the script-or knowing it) is everything. in PvP, it's all about managing your buffs so you get killed less often than you kill.

    This was hilarious because the guy you were corresponding with had no idea whatsoever on those PVP fundamentals :)

    And he was trying to talk about PVP play when he himself had no idea whatsoever about it.

    DPS builds are very fragile in PVP. In a team environment where they have friends supporting you and keeping you alive, sure. But outside of that, they're as tough as egg shells.
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    deokkent wrote: »
    Anyways all this talk of pvp is meaningless post DR.

    There's plenty of PvP in STO post DR...it's just you're fighting against the folks in your PvE PUG to get the instance done. ;)
  • hamrbls#8230 hamrbls Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    You miss the point entirely. PVP players play because it’s about the experience, teamwork and having fun with your team. This is just a good venue to get together and have some fun. It only hurts anonymous egos.

    PVE players have a whole host of reasons. Some for the interaction with their fleet mates, some to escape the real world and others just to pass the time.

    If you are reading anymore into this game then the fact that its only purpose is to keep someone entertained for a brief moment in time, then well, your way overthinking this.

    Yes there are people who play that are wrapped way to tight. They have come to realize they can act in the most unprofessional manner with no consequence. For some that’s the point.
    Finally, I would say that you get what you put into the game. Ultimately the choice to play is yours, you can chose to not play. If you are unhappy with the game there is a simple solution. You find another game or you don’t play.

    Just saying…..
  • erei1erei1 Member Posts: 4,081 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    There's plenty of PvP in STO post DR...it's just you're fighting against the folks in your PvE PUG to get the instance done. ;)
    There is also a lot of pvp going on the forums. So far, it's balanced, and nobody have used OP build yet.
    We do have our cookie cutter arguments sadly.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    There's plenty of PvP in STO post DR...it's just you're fighting against the folks in your PvE PUG to get the instance done. ;)

    Don't forget the forums.
    XzRTofz.gif
  • theanothernametheanothername Member Posts: 1,511 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Without meaningful procedural generated deep space exploration whats the point of ship building?
  • scififan78scififan78 Member Posts: 1,383 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Please I have been asking this for a few years now and the only answer i get is "so you can do stf's faster the next time"

    Is that the reason to buy a ship and gear it up? because there is nothing after 60 except spec point grinding and why grind spec points? so I can do stf's even faster?

    Sad state of affairs

    I believe Kirk said it best when he said: "Because it's there."
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  • orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,222 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    The reason for ship building - for any standard player's ship building - is that it fits in with their playstyle. Whether it be highly competitive PvP, fun and social PvE, or creative and engaging RP, almost anything that involves flying your ship out of drydock involves some form of ship building.

    If you have no reason to build up your ship, don't do it. No one's forcing you. But there are many reasons to ship build, and if you need or even just want to do it, that's a good enough reason.
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