This guy is right, as sad as it is the space portion of the game only encourages DPS-centred builds that can already outstrip anything the game can throw up by miles. You don't need to have a tank any more than you need a drain ship or crowd control except in very, and I emphasise very limited situations.
That's what happens when health is increased on mobs and resistances get buffed up to insane levels, the only thing that matters at that point is destroying them, as dps-centred ships are the only things that never get held back while the more traditional engineering and science based builds hit a wall at one point or another.
That's not the only issue, too. DPS can kill a lot of things before the damage is a threat, yea. But I could have a cruiser using Attract Fire, 4 +Th Romulan consoles (the Fleet Star Cruiser has that many), maxed Threat Control, using Attack Pattern Delta and the DOff that makes APD double your Threat gen, in a decent-power FAW build... and a high-end DPS build will STILL draw more aggro. Simple fact of the matter is, someone dealing 30k DPS will generate more threat than a Cruiser dealing 15k and maxed out in Threat Gen.
We need enemies that:
Deal enough damage to be a threat to squishier ships.
Can TAKE damage without being pushovers or DPS sponges.
Will target things that are SUPPOSED to be Tanks instead of focusing the DPSers.
What we need is for non-weapon Threat to mean more. And we need enemies worth tanking. Build the game so you need a tank... THEN add things that make tanks better.
What we need is for non-weapon Threat to mean more. And we need enemies worth tanking. Build the game so you need a tank... THEN add things that make tanks better.
I'm not a fan of fake aggro. I mean, seriously...I'm not a fan of fake aggro in the least. You've got some enemy that's supposed to be a threat to the known universe, and it's supposed to attack the one guy cause he's telling "Yo mama so fat.." jokes rather than the guys doing damage or healing folks?
I'm more of a fan of the positional tank - collision and not shooting through things. Somebody wants to be the tank, they position themselves to take the damage...not tease the target about having a bad hair day.
That MMO Trinity nonsense is the largest crock of TRIBBLE in gaming history...having some end of the world guy ignoring the folks killing him, the folks keeping the meatshield alive, while wailing away on the tank...seriously? Largest crock of TRIBBLE ever...though the magic wand healing in STO comes pretty close, wave that wand and heal the ship.
Obviously my opinion...not stating it as a fact. Different folks will have different opinions on what's the largest crock of TRIBBLE.
But here's the thing: Game balance is so dead, that skill is pointless anyway. There's no need for a tank in this game - trust me, I've tried. Everyone takes bleedthrough because everyone gets aggro because everyone is doing stupid amounts of DPS. That skill won't be useful until the game gets balanced in favor of necessary tank roles.
While it was a bit blunt, that's sadly the truth.
We never really used a tank in STO, except for that ground stf (Armek), and even then, most of the time it was a healer that did the tanking. I don't remember having the need for a tank in space at all.
Tanks in this game are pretty much useless as everyone said. Just like healers or debuffers. Players don't ask for tank or heal or anything but DPS when grouping for an STF. In fact, it's so obvious, it's not even worth mentioning. Having a non DPS is considered a penalty nowadays.
It's sad, but it's the reality. I wish it was something else, but it's not. As it is, this power will not be useful, except for that time when you do a PUG and you have more DPS than your entire team.
I'm not a fan of fake aggro. I mean, seriously...I'm not a fan of fake aggro in the least. You've got some enemy that's supposed to be a threat to the known universe, and it's supposed to attack the one guy cause he's telling "Yo mama so fat.." jokes rather than the guys doing damage or healing folks?
In star trek, we use spaceship. The crew on them doesn't shoot on what they see, but what their computer tell them. They don't use a window, and shoot at the most threatening target they can see. They use computers and sensors to tell them.
That's a weakness. Fool the sensors, and you have a higher threat than you should. Tell them you're doing more damage, or you have more weapons, whatever. Holograms can fake weaponry you don't have for example.
Or you can scramble the enemy sensor, and makes everyone but you "disappear".
You can find a way around to say why you are more threatening. As for the mum's joke, it worked fine on Shinzon, he dropped everything because he wanted Picard. Or some telepathic creepy stuff with Troi. Not sure.
I'm not a fan of fake aggro. I mean, seriously...I'm not a fan of fake aggro in the least. You've got some enemy that's supposed to be a threat to the known universe, and it's supposed to attack the one guy cause he's telling "Yo mama so fat.." jokes rather than the guys doing damage or healing folks?
I'm more of a fan of the positional tank - collision and not shooting through things. Somebody wants to be the tank, they position themselves to take the damage...not tease the target about having a bad hair day.
That MMO Trinity nonsense is the largest crock of TRIBBLE in gaming history...having some end of the world guy ignoring the folks killing him, the folks keeping the meatshield alive, while wailing away on the tank...seriously? Largest crock of TRIBBLE ever...though the magic wand healing in STO comes pretty close, wave that wand and heal the ship.
Obviously my opinion...not stating it as a fact. Different folks will have different opinions on what's the largest crock of TRIBBLE.
I would agree with you... if such a mechanic existed in this game. Problem is, positional tanking - even on ground - isn't much of a thing in STO. The only big AoE thongs tend to be one-shots. NPCs don't use Shooter Mode. The MMO Trinity may not be the best solution, but it is the easiest for things to settle into. Else it wouldn't happen so often. So, in needing a tank role and in lieu of positional tanking, fake aggro is all you can get. At least in space it makes sense. "That cruiser has massive power levels, it's a huge threat and we need to bring it down." Remember, in the Dominion War, Galaxy-class cruisers were massive hulks of brutality and durability, and two of them was worth a wing of smaller ships. So cruisers kind of should be a big deal. These days, they are, because FAW boats are the kings of DPS, and Cruisers do it best - usually. But a DPS cruiser will get more aggro than a tank cruiser, easily. So, the solution is to make fake aggro work. Or just not have a tank class and let game balance go to TRIBBLE because you don't like the alternative of using a fully viable feature that mildly irritates you. Just let DPS rule the universe unopposed and heck to anybody that doesn't want to play that. Or you can use the Trinity and make it worthwhile, permitting whoever wants to play to do so as they wish and contribute equally. So that they can have fun. Which is what games are designed to do.
In star trek, we use spaceship. The crew on them doesn't shoot on what they see, but what their computer tell them. They don't use a window, and shoot at the most threatening target they can see. They use computers and sensors to tell them.
That's a weakness. Fool the sensors, and you have a higher threat than you should. Tell them you're doing more damage, or you have more weapons, whatever. Holograms can fake weaponry you don't have for example.
Or you can scramble the enemy sensor, and makes everyone but you "disappear".
Those would be angles to take, imho - things that reduced the perception of other targets - even gave the appearance that the damage was coming from somebody other than it was. It gets into the difference between active and passive.
Attract Fire? One can picture it TRIBBLE with enemy sensors so it appears that the ships around the Cruiser using it aren't posing the threat they are while the Cruiser is posing more of a danger than it actually is...
But [+Th][-Th]...? Not a fan.
We've got Jam Sensors...neener neener, you can't see me...what about Jam Sensors...neener, neener, you can only see me?
And I really shouldn't say all passive...imagine a Telepathic DOFF you could slot which would increase your apparent threat because of messing with their minds?
STO's setting...provides so many options to allow for all sorts of tanking...without running into the "Yo mama" jokes thing that creeps up in other games.
It's one thing to draw aggro on run of the mill grunts but I guess I just have higher expectations for certain mobs out there which are just as susceptible. Stuff that might work on a Probe really shouldn't work on the Borg Queen sort of thing.
But it's all just opinion...and I'm sorry that I flew off the handle in the way I did there. I really liked what could be done with tanking in PnP RPGs way back in the day...didn't like what happened with MMOs and what they did. So again, my apologies to all for those out of left field comments there.
The user of the ability is slowed. If he's using it to grief his teammates, then you should be able to outrun him to get out of the area of effect (which is quite small).
The problem with it being a disable is it turns off already running buffs. If possible it might be better to have it only prevent new activation of powers/firing of weapons- or alternatively instead of a disable make it reduce perception in the field of allies to 0.
So nobody can see them, but they can't see anyone either. Even though they can cycle buffs, they can't activate any powers targeting enemies, or fire weapons because they have no targets.
It is proving hard for me to find a way to level up fast enough so I am able to test out the new Specialization Tree, would it be possible to add Specialization Point tester pack to the Drozana Console?
I think it's very messed up that we're getting another spec tree to work through when so many of us are still not even half way through the first load. You need to address the lack of XP.
Join date is wrong, I've actually been around since STO Beta.
True alters don't have a "main". Account wide unlocks for all unique event rewards!!
If the Disable is removed, then it allows allies to have Perfect Stealth + Regen, while being able to act with impunity. That's not going to fly.
The user of the ability is slowed. If he's using it to grief his teammates, then you should be able to outrun him to get out of the area of effect (which is quite small).
The problem is that disables also have a root effect, making him unable to run out of the area. Perfect stealth also does not prevent the user from being hit by AOEs. Even if they have high regen, it won't prevent burst damage. Examples: Tier V delta power; Orbital Strike; bombs and mines; Mortars on the visible user (the caster).
Thinking about it, the first thing I would do if I saw someone using Sanctuary Bunker would be to run in and place a Transphasic Bomb, Mines, or just a buffed up Orbital Strike. No amount of regen will prevent that amount of burst damage. I also can further slow down the caster with Fuse Armor. Enemies disabled means they can't fire back so I'm free to rush in if I want. Not being able to see them makes no difference if they can't actually DO anything.
Sanctuary Bunker in its current form is starting to sound like a bad power altogether. The regen is too little, the stealth seems misplaced -- could go without it -- and the disable will certainly be annoying to those affected by it.
I think it should be reworked to behave more like a movable health regenerator:
- keep the caster slowed
- perhaps increase the radius a bit
- remove disable
- remove stealth
- increase regen moderately or substantially
- perhaps add an additional effect, like removing DoTs/exposes from affected allies.
- adjust the cooldown so uptime could be something like 33%, so three teammates cycling it would make it 100%, encouraging teamwork.
I believe these would make the power worth its name more properly.
I think it's very messed up that we're getting another spec tree to work through when so many of us are still not even half way through the first load. You need to address the lack of XP.
You don't need them both - you can't slot them both. If the new one appeals to you more, it might be wise to stop spending points in the other and save them to apply to this one. I'm 23 Intel, 15 Pilot, 0 Commando...I could grind out 22 points to drop in Commander when it launches rather than putting them in Intel or Commando.
That's not the only issue, too. DPS can kill a lot of things before the damage is a threat, yea. But I could have a cruiser using Attract Fire, 4 +Th Romulan consoles (the Fleet Star Cruiser has that many), maxed Threat Control, using Attack Pattern Delta and the DOff that makes APD double your Threat gen, in a decent-power FAW build... and a high-end DPS build will STILL draw more aggro. Simple fact of the matter is, someone dealing 30k DPS will generate more threat than a Cruiser dealing 15k and maxed out in Threat Gen.
We need enemies that:
Deal enough damage to be a threat to squishier ships.
Can TAKE damage without being pushovers or DPS sponges.
Will target things that are SUPPOSED to be Tanks instead of focusing the DPSers.
What we need is for non-weapon Threat to mean more. And we need enemies worth tanking. Build the game so you need a tank... THEN add things that make tanks better.
Yeah there's some good things there, but also for the long term they might want to reconsider what Geko went and did by making the damage output of weapons go up exponentially at higher marks, that really didn't help matters for anyone, it just caused an even wider gap between the tacs and the other professions.
One thing I've said often enough would help would be to make the AI considerably more intelligent, so that they actually do a better job of defending themselves, avoiding fire and fight in a manner that takes advantage of the weaknesses of your ship, so for example raiders would cloak and decloak when they are in a firing position behind you for example. Heck, maybe give the tactical end diminishing returns like the other professions have to live with.
Truth is until the balance issue is fixed we aren't going to have a use for powers like this, because going back to the original point, we have no reason to now to do anything but a damage centred ship.
You don't need them both - you can't slot them both. If the new one appeals to you more, it might be wise to stop spending points in the other and save them to apply to this one. I'm 23 Intel, 15 Pilot, 0 Commando...I could grind out 22 points to drop in Commander when it launches rather than putting them in Intel or Commando.
However that is based on the assumption that you have one character. If you have alts then the argument falls apart because this is probably the most alt-unfriendly system added to the game to date, well closely followed by the upgrade system.
I personally think spec points should be account bound, so that you can play any character you want at any given point for the sake of fun without loosing out on meaningful progress, as all the characters benefit from a level up. It's been done well in other games, so why not do the same here?
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
You don't need them both - you can't slot them both. If the new one appeals to you more, it might be wise to stop spending points in the other and save them to apply to this one. I'm 23 Intel, 15 Pilot, 0 Commando...I could grind out 22 points to drop in Commander when it launches rather than putting them in Intel or Commando.
There are aspects that you have regardless of whether you've slotted a spec or not. There's the trait unlocks which slot independently of the specialization, the specialization training, and the kit modules.
I'd like to transfer more characters for testing, but character transfer isn't working.
I have several non-maxed characters (I.E. all of them) on Holodeck and I'd rather grind up the points on Holodeck and transfer to Tribble to try out the new tree. Plus, there's different torpedoes that I don't have on any of the characters I have on Tribble already.
There are aspects that you have regardless of whether you've slotted a spec or not. There's the trait unlocks which slot independently of the specialization, the specialization training, and the kit modules.
Yes, if one feels the need or has the desire for something from something...then they will work toward it. Many people out there just want to fill everything.
I think the problem is moreso that AoE spam is simply everywhere. There are very few opportunities to tank because damage is simply thrown out at everyone, all the time(BFAW, Torp Spreads, Rifts, Proton Barrages, etc.).
I think "tanking" would be more viable if focused, sustained damage(rather than burst) were more prevalent. Specifically: if ships lined up dual cannons and proceeded to CRF players down, or if there was a way to focus a sustained beam on a singular target(rather than the burst of beam overload - this is something I've long asked for).
Additionally, it is my opinion that all abilities, attack and defense buffs alike, shouldn't be possible to have 100% uptime. Everyone is flying around super-tanking everything because it's possible to just keep a myriad of buffs up all the time - I have some characters that probably have 20+ buffs once the combat gets rolling.
I have a couple characters that are built around tanking and they do a pretty good job of drawing the majority of hate in things like the Undine Battlezone, however there's really not much I can do to help other people during a Borg Unimatrix Torpedo Spread, or a Voth Aceton Mode Detonation, etc.
Sanctuary Bunker in its current form is starting to sound like a bad power altogether. The regen is too little, the stealth seems misplaced -- could go without it -- and the disable will certainly be annoying to those affected by it.
I think it should be reworked to behave more like a movable health regenerator:
- keep the caster slowed
- perhaps increase the radius a bit
- remove disable
- remove stealth
- increase regen moderately or substantially
- perhaps add an additional effect, like removing DoTs/exposes from affected allies.
- adjust the cooldown so uptime could be something like 33%, so three teammates cycling it would make it 100%, encouraging teamwork.
I believe these would make the power worth its name more properly.
I agree.
When I first saw it, I immediately thought of a beefier version of the one Nukara ground 3-set barrier field(would love to see that ability's duration doubled). The stealth/disable WILL be used to grief other players and I strongly suggest a different approach. Perhaps a voth-like 'push' mechanic and a heavier movement penalty? (I'd love to see a splash-damage reduction component, but I presume you guys don't have the tech for that right now.)
The weak link to the whole specialization system is the slow grind on points. I went from 50 to 60 on a casual play over the past three months and only got 10 spec points. If you add a new spec and don't increase spec point reward (retroactive) then the system will die an early death due to boredom and frustration. :rolleyes:
I think it's very messed up that we're getting another spec tree to work through when so many of us are still not even half way through the first load. You need to address the lack of XP.
My highest level character is 60 and has only the 10 specialization points from leveling up and I had already spent them.
I did transfer her to Tribble but I won't be able to test the new specialization fully.
Why? Because of how long it is taking just to earn specialization points. Sure, I could go to the Jenolane Sphere in the Delta Quadrant and talk to that NPC that gives you skill points once per day, gaining about 2 spec points a day. This means it would take around 15 days just to earn enough points to max out the command specialization and Cryptic needs testing done now. By the time I earn enough points to test even half the new tree it may be live on Holodeck already.
The only honest feedback I can leave is: looking at the various abilities in the new specialization, I like what I'm seeing. But it would take far too long to get to a point where I can do any meaningful testing before the system goes to Holodeck.
I've been playing pretty hard lately, trying to get a plasmonic leech. My main has 20 spec points, and I see an insurmountable path ahead of me when trying to get spec points, not to mention if I want to do it with alts (hint, I do not).
I like the idea to make tanks more important, but as other posters already said unfortunately in the current state of the game this is futile. By designing the game to cater to literally nothing but high-damage-builds and having the efficiency of a tank tied to damage the viability of tanks has been de facto eliminated.
For a tank to be viable there had to be some changes to "the whole". One possible concept called "reflective tanking" might have some merit, I outlined this in another thread a while back:
Basically, the longer you manage to tank the more "grudge" you are building. This "grudge" is a temporary resource used for a strong counter attack which deals damage and/or disables and generates more threat, like a hyper charged shot or something similiar. Additionally, you get an ability similiar to a sci vessels sensor analysis which is castable on allies. If you mark an ally like this you are his or her designated protector. As a protector/defender you soak up a portion of damage he or she is taking as long as you manage to stay between the enemy and your ally. If your ally is under attack you start to build "grudge" twice as fast in order to generate more threat more quickly.
This would introduce some form of real, physical tanking and some way to "get back" at the enemy that would legitimetely consider the tank a bigger threat after such a counter attack. I mean the most dedicated tank in STO is the Galaxy class, that's the only thing that's repeatedly said about it in the flavour texts and official statements. In-canon, this ship is a heavily armed and respected ship with lots of firepower. This could be portrayed by a counter ability that deals single target damage and thus raises threat to levels that would restore the tanking functionality.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Have you ever considered borrowing an idea from City Of Heroes, well Villians? Make the 'tanks' agro grow incrementally along with maybe their damage output. It used to work decently with their brutes class, maybe make a variation (both being additional cruiser commands perhaps) that makes the agro grow much faster along with a proportional resistance/defense buff to help stay alive.
"..and like children playing after sunset, we were surrounded by darkness." -Ruri Hoshino
Now I see why everyone has been complaining about specialization point accumulation. I've been ignoring it but decided to copy a alt to tribble to test it out. And found out how little points I have. So given the choice of farming or ignoring I'll continue to ignore it.
Ex-CoH players, Please add the chat channel "CoX STO"
I was thinking for the recently revamped "Sanctuary" power that its new implementation totally defeats the purpose of the power. Now it's just a crappier any-captain ground cloak, rather than a cool team ability like before.
Of course the griefing potential of the original ability was significant, but it occurred to me that there's an acceptable middle ground that you guys could do by adapting some old code.
Specifically, the Photonic Tribble.
If you've forgotten how that works, when you activate it, you get its benefits and everyone on your team gets a copy of the power they can activate themselves.
If you were to adapt this code to the sanctuary power, you could make it activate on the person who has it, and grant everyone on your team, or in an AoE a togglable copy of the power. You could even set it to expire if they leave the AoE. That way allies can benefit from the power should they so choose to do so, but aren't forced, and you avoid the issue of team griefing with it without having to nerf the power into being an inferior ground cloak.
After careful examination of the new kit modules at Mk XII VR Quality:
Coordinate Bombing Strike
This could have its uses, however it suffers from the same issue as the Elachi gun from the lobi store, which is that once you’ve set the target it can be very easily avoided, which makes the power only useful in either narrow areas (and I mean narrow) or against stationary targets. Now one could argue that the power should be used in lieu with crowd control folks. However, most players in the game aren’t very good at working as a team so this is rather unlikely to happen.
Recommendation: This would work better if it randomly selected 5 enemies in the area and went around each to drop a bomb dead on target, would also look pretty darn cool.
Overwhelm Shields
No meaningful usefulness. Shield tanks (not that they are viable any more anyway) would get little benefit from this power as current powers do a better job in a way that makes sense, as even for anyone else, shields are simply too flimsy to bother with a power that doesn’t do enough to fill them.
Recommendation: What if we took the name more literally. The more you shoot the enemy the fuller their shields get until they go critical and deal severe electrical damage over time with 100% shield penetration?
Timely Intervention
I’ll be honest, this power isn’t that useful. Good players are more than able to look after themselves in ground combat on a basic level, and for a supporting officer there is a much better method of preventing harm to your teammates; don’t let them get hurt in the first place. If you’re also lucky enough to have voice chat to be able to communicate to use this power, you’re communication is good enough to prevent the harm in the first place. This simply isn’t a viable power.
Recommendation: Complete rework into something else. Maybe better if you actually swapped places, so you go to them and they go to where you were while at the same time taking the aggro of whatever was targeting them, that would have some uses.
Return Fire
More damage as one’s health goes down. Letting your health go low and stay low just to buff your damage is making you a potential problem for your team.
Recommendation: It might be better to work this as a kind of team wide shield penetration power or something similar.
Take Cover
Firstly this power won’t benefit a melee person at all. Secondly it assumes that those who do stand to potentially benefit (ie, anyone using a medium to long range weapon) actually needs to stop moving at that point. Repositioning should always be happening for a firearms officer, even if they’re just small moves to improve your aim, so this is highly situational, and while there are times it’ll have its uses, they’re few and far between.
Recommendation: Haven’t really got one, good power really, just highly situational.
Shock and Awe
No real use. Only profession to stand to benefit from this is an engineer, and while it does lower the damage resistance for the target it isn’t going to be noticed in the grand scheme of things.
Recommendation: Not sure with this one.
Strategic Analysis
While this is much better than Return Fire, it becomes less useful as the competence of the team goes up, which wouldn’t be as big a deal if it weren’t for the fact the power cuts out as soon as one leaves red alert. Pretty much assigned it to the junk pile as soon as I saw that happen.
Recommendation: Make it work outside combat.
Sanctuary
I actually have no complaints about this since the rework. Probably won’t get a lot of use but it isn’t a bad power.
Recommendation: Maybe remove the run speed debuff, otherwise not a lot to say.
Delegated Devastation
I don’t know about this, I mean as I see it you have to buff 3 people to offset you not fighting. That means three people in the party using energy weapons, which is becoming increasingly unlikely to happen nowadays. Any less than 3, or simply having less than 3 who are competent enough to count as part of the offset would mean that this is rarely useful.
Recommendation: What if this power replaced everyone else’s crit severity or something with their own for a certain length of time? It’s just a thought but it would be quite an interesting mechanic.
Hammer and Anvil
This does have merit. The damage increase when flanking is pretty good. I would question the damage resistance buff however. Competent players do have reasonable resistance anyway.
Diminishing returns makes this buff pretty meek.
Recommendation: Buff the Damage Resistance.
EDIT: On the point of spec point acquisition, I thought I might try to get some points during this xp weekend. I managed to get 17 spec points. However that took 227 back-to-back Gerren runs, and it is just simply depressing when you think if it wasn't an event, you'd get half the spec points and so would have to run 454 of the darn things. My mate did 500 runs or so, god knows how, I thought I was the crazy one. So for him to have achieved the same he'd have had to do over 1000 runs.
Now considering this is the closest we can get to content that is rewarding enough for time investment and realistic progress this is shockingly poor, so now that the level cap has essentially increased to 140 (30(Command)+30(Intel)+15(Commando)+15(Pilot)+60(Level Cap)-10(for 50-60)=140) is it really reasonable to expect people to do this, because that is without taking alts into consideration.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
Borticus, does Expose Weakness I & II stack with Violent Detonation I & II, ultimately giving 150 Kinetic damage resistance? If not, then Expose Weakness II is superfluous.
Also, on a related note, I'm loving these combo type energy exposes and torpedo exploits, really good idea
Was it already stated how we would acquire command kit modules to use ourselves when this hits holodeck? Intel modules are available with Delta Alliance rep. Will command modules be available with a new reputation or something?
Borticus, does Expose Weakness I & II stack with Violent Detonation I & II, ultimately giving 150 Kinetic damage resistance? If not, then Expose Weakness II is superfluous.
Expose Weakness I and II both give you the base Exploit value of -50 Damage Resistance Rating, with Rank II only increasing the Chance to Expose.
It is only by investing in Violent Detonation that the Damage Resistance Rating Ignored value is increased.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
at this point if I level this I level it, not grinding anything else. Most of my specialization points now come more from doffing than actually playing.
Also not buying yet another ship so I can use a specific special slot.
These systems might be great for new players starting from scratch but for people around for years its just more grind to get more skills to use on missions we were burned out on long ago that we are only doing to grind out some new system you added
Comments
That's not the only issue, too. DPS can kill a lot of things before the damage is a threat, yea. But I could have a cruiser using Attract Fire, 4 +Th Romulan consoles (the Fleet Star Cruiser has that many), maxed Threat Control, using Attack Pattern Delta and the DOff that makes APD double your Threat gen, in a decent-power FAW build... and a high-end DPS build will STILL draw more aggro. Simple fact of the matter is, someone dealing 30k DPS will generate more threat than a Cruiser dealing 15k and maxed out in Threat Gen.
We need enemies that:
- Deal enough damage to be a threat to squishier ships.
- Can TAKE damage without being pushovers or DPS sponges.
- Will target things that are SUPPOSED to be Tanks instead of focusing the DPSers.
What we need is for non-weapon Threat to mean more. And we need enemies worth tanking. Build the game so you need a tank... THEN add things that make tanks better.I'm not a fan of fake aggro. I mean, seriously...I'm not a fan of fake aggro in the least. You've got some enemy that's supposed to be a threat to the known universe, and it's supposed to attack the one guy cause he's telling "Yo mama so fat.." jokes rather than the guys doing damage or healing folks?
I'm more of a fan of the positional tank - collision and not shooting through things. Somebody wants to be the tank, they position themselves to take the damage...not tease the target about having a bad hair day.
That MMO Trinity nonsense is the largest crock of TRIBBLE in gaming history...having some end of the world guy ignoring the folks killing him, the folks keeping the meatshield alive, while wailing away on the tank...seriously? Largest crock of TRIBBLE ever...though the magic wand healing in STO comes pretty close, wave that wand and heal the ship.
Obviously my opinion...not stating it as a fact. Different folks will have different opinions on what's the largest crock of TRIBBLE.
We never really used a tank in STO, except for that ground stf (Armek), and even then, most of the time it was a healer that did the tanking. I don't remember having the need for a tank in space at all.
Tanks in this game are pretty much useless as everyone said. Just like healers or debuffers. Players don't ask for tank or heal or anything but DPS when grouping for an STF. In fact, it's so obvious, it's not even worth mentioning. Having a non DPS is considered a penalty nowadays.
It's sad, but it's the reality. I wish it was something else, but it's not. As it is, this power will not be useful, except for that time when you do a PUG and you have more DPS than your entire team. In star trek, we use spaceship. The crew on them doesn't shoot on what they see, but what their computer tell them. They don't use a window, and shoot at the most threatening target they can see. They use computers and sensors to tell them.
That's a weakness. Fool the sensors, and you have a higher threat than you should. Tell them you're doing more damage, or you have more weapons, whatever. Holograms can fake weaponry you don't have for example.
Or you can scramble the enemy sensor, and makes everyone but you "disappear".
You can find a way around to say why you are more threatening. As for the mum's joke, it worked fine on Shinzon, he dropped everything because he wanted Picard. Or some telepathic creepy stuff with Troi. Not sure.
I would agree with you... if such a mechanic existed in this game. Problem is, positional tanking - even on ground - isn't much of a thing in STO. The only big AoE thongs tend to be one-shots. NPCs don't use Shooter Mode. The MMO Trinity may not be the best solution, but it is the easiest for things to settle into. Else it wouldn't happen so often. So, in needing a tank role and in lieu of positional tanking, fake aggro is all you can get. At least in space it makes sense. "That cruiser has massive power levels, it's a huge threat and we need to bring it down." Remember, in the Dominion War, Galaxy-class cruisers were massive hulks of brutality and durability, and two of them was worth a wing of smaller ships. So cruisers kind of should be a big deal. These days, they are, because FAW boats are the kings of DPS, and Cruisers do it best - usually. But a DPS cruiser will get more aggro than a tank cruiser, easily. So, the solution is to make fake aggro work. Or just not have a tank class and let game balance go to TRIBBLE because you don't like the alternative of using a fully viable feature that mildly irritates you. Just let DPS rule the universe unopposed and heck to anybody that doesn't want to play that. Or you can use the Trinity and make it worthwhile, permitting whoever wants to play to do so as they wish and contribute equally. So that they can have fun. Which is what games are designed to do.
Those would be angles to take, imho - things that reduced the perception of other targets - even gave the appearance that the damage was coming from somebody other than it was. It gets into the difference between active and passive.
Attract Fire? One can picture it TRIBBLE with enemy sensors so it appears that the ships around the Cruiser using it aren't posing the threat they are while the Cruiser is posing more of a danger than it actually is...
But [+Th][-Th]...? Not a fan.
We've got Jam Sensors...neener neener, you can't see me...what about Jam Sensors...neener, neener, you can only see me?
And I really shouldn't say all passive...imagine a Telepathic DOFF you could slot which would increase your apparent threat because of messing with their minds?
STO's setting...provides so many options to allow for all sorts of tanking...without running into the "Yo mama" jokes thing that creeps up in other games.
It's one thing to draw aggro on run of the mill grunts but I guess I just have higher expectations for certain mobs out there which are just as susceptible. Stuff that might work on a Probe really shouldn't work on the Borg Queen sort of thing.
But it's all just opinion...and I'm sorry that I flew off the handle in the way I did there. I really liked what could be done with tanking in PnP RPGs way back in the day...didn't like what happened with MMOs and what they did. So again, my apologies to all for those out of left field comments there.
The problem with it being a disable is it turns off already running buffs. If possible it might be better to have it only prevent new activation of powers/firing of weapons- or alternatively instead of a disable make it reduce perception in the field of allies to 0.
So nobody can see them, but they can't see anyone either. Even though they can cycle buffs, they can't activate any powers targeting enemies, or fire weapons because they have no targets.
Would make testing a lot more easier...
not sure if this was already said...
The problem is that disables also have a root effect, making him unable to run out of the area. Perfect stealth also does not prevent the user from being hit by AOEs. Even if they have high regen, it won't prevent burst damage. Examples: Tier V delta power; Orbital Strike; bombs and mines; Mortars on the visible user (the caster).
Thinking about it, the first thing I would do if I saw someone using Sanctuary Bunker would be to run in and place a Transphasic Bomb, Mines, or just a buffed up Orbital Strike. No amount of regen will prevent that amount of burst damage. I also can further slow down the caster with Fuse Armor. Enemies disabled means they can't fire back so I'm free to rush in if I want. Not being able to see them makes no difference if they can't actually DO anything.
Sanctuary Bunker in its current form is starting to sound like a bad power altogether. The regen is too little, the stealth seems misplaced -- could go without it -- and the disable will certainly be annoying to those affected by it.
I think it should be reworked to behave more like a movable health regenerator:
- keep the caster slowed
- perhaps increase the radius a bit
- remove disable
- remove stealth
- increase regen moderately or substantially
- perhaps add an additional effect, like removing DoTs/exposes from affected allies.
- adjust the cooldown so uptime could be something like 33%, so three teammates cycling it would make it 100%, encouraging teamwork.
I believe these would make the power worth its name more properly.
STO Screenshot Archive
You don't need them both - you can't slot them both. If the new one appeals to you more, it might be wise to stop spending points in the other and save them to apply to this one. I'm 23 Intel, 15 Pilot, 0 Commando...I could grind out 22 points to drop in Commander when it launches rather than putting them in Intel or Commando.
Yeah there's some good things there, but also for the long term they might want to reconsider what Geko went and did by making the damage output of weapons go up exponentially at higher marks, that really didn't help matters for anyone, it just caused an even wider gap between the tacs and the other professions.
One thing I've said often enough would help would be to make the AI considerably more intelligent, so that they actually do a better job of defending themselves, avoiding fire and fight in a manner that takes advantage of the weaknesses of your ship, so for example raiders would cloak and decloak when they are in a firing position behind you for example. Heck, maybe give the tactical end diminishing returns like the other professions have to live with.
Truth is until the balance issue is fixed we aren't going to have a use for powers like this, because going back to the original point, we have no reason to now to do anything but a damage centred ship.
However that is based on the assumption that you have one character. If you have alts then the argument falls apart because this is probably the most alt-unfriendly system added to the game to date, well closely followed by the upgrade system.
I personally think spec points should be account bound, so that you can play any character you want at any given point for the sake of fun without loosing out on meaningful progress, as all the characters benefit from a level up. It's been done well in other games, so why not do the same here?
There are aspects that you have regardless of whether you've slotted a spec or not. There's the trait unlocks which slot independently of the specialization, the specialization training, and the kit modules.
I have several non-maxed characters (I.E. all of them) on Holodeck and I'd rather grind up the points on Holodeck and transfer to Tribble to try out the new tree. Plus, there's different torpedoes that I don't have on any of the characters I have on Tribble already.
Yes, if one feels the need or has the desire for something from something...then they will work toward it. Many people out there just want to fill everything.
I think the problem is moreso that AoE spam is simply everywhere. There are very few opportunities to tank because damage is simply thrown out at everyone, all the time(BFAW, Torp Spreads, Rifts, Proton Barrages, etc.).
I think "tanking" would be more viable if focused, sustained damage(rather than burst) were more prevalent. Specifically: if ships lined up dual cannons and proceeded to CRF players down, or if there was a way to focus a sustained beam on a singular target(rather than the burst of beam overload - this is something I've long asked for).
Additionally, it is my opinion that all abilities, attack and defense buffs alike, shouldn't be possible to have 100% uptime. Everyone is flying around super-tanking everything because it's possible to just keep a myriad of buffs up all the time - I have some characters that probably have 20+ buffs once the combat gets rolling.
I have a couple characters that are built around tanking and they do a pretty good job of drawing the majority of hate in things like the Undine Battlezone, however there's really not much I can do to help other people during a Borg Unimatrix Torpedo Spread, or a Voth Aceton Mode Detonation, etc.
I agree.
When I first saw it, I immediately thought of a beefier version of the one Nukara ground 3-set barrier field(would love to see that ability's duration doubled). The stealth/disable WILL be used to grief other players and I strongly suggest a different approach. Perhaps a voth-like 'push' mechanic and a heavier movement penalty? (I'd love to see a splash-damage reduction component, but I presume you guys don't have the tech for that right now.)
My highest level character is 60 and has only the 10 specialization points from leveling up and I had already spent them.
I did transfer her to Tribble but I won't be able to test the new specialization fully.
Why? Because of how long it is taking just to earn specialization points. Sure, I could go to the Jenolane Sphere in the Delta Quadrant and talk to that NPC that gives you skill points once per day, gaining about 2 spec points a day. This means it would take around 15 days just to earn enough points to max out the command specialization and Cryptic needs testing done now. By the time I earn enough points to test even half the new tree it may be live on Holodeck already.
The only honest feedback I can leave is: looking at the various abilities in the new specialization, I like what I'm seeing. But it would take far too long to get to a point where I can do any meaningful testing before the system goes to Holodeck.
For a tank to be viable there had to be some changes to "the whole". One possible concept called "reflective tanking" might have some merit, I outlined this in another thread a while back:
Basically, the longer you manage to tank the more "grudge" you are building. This "grudge" is a temporary resource used for a strong counter attack which deals damage and/or disables and generates more threat, like a hyper charged shot or something similiar. Additionally, you get an ability similiar to a sci vessels sensor analysis which is castable on allies. If you mark an ally like this you are his or her designated protector. As a protector/defender you soak up a portion of damage he or she is taking as long as you manage to stay between the enemy and your ally. If your ally is under attack you start to build "grudge" twice as fast in order to generate more threat more quickly.
This would introduce some form of real, physical tanking and some way to "get back" at the enemy that would legitimetely consider the tank a bigger threat after such a counter attack. I mean the most dedicated tank in STO is the Galaxy class, that's the only thing that's repeatedly said about it in the flavour texts and official statements. In-canon, this ship is a heavily armed and respected ship with lots of firepower. This could be portrayed by a counter ability that deals single target damage and thus raises threat to levels that would restore the tanking functionality.
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Of course the griefing potential of the original ability was significant, but it occurred to me that there's an acceptable middle ground that you guys could do by adapting some old code.
Specifically, the Photonic Tribble.
If you've forgotten how that works, when you activate it, you get its benefits and everyone on your team gets a copy of the power they can activate themselves.
If you were to adapt this code to the sanctuary power, you could make it activate on the person who has it, and grant everyone on your team, or in an AoE a togglable copy of the power. You could even set it to expire if they leave the AoE. That way allies can benefit from the power should they so choose to do so, but aren't forced, and you avoid the issue of team griefing with it without having to nerf the power into being an inferior ground cloak.
Coordinate Bombing Strike
This could have its uses, however it suffers from the same issue as the Elachi gun from the lobi store, which is that once you’ve set the target it can be very easily avoided, which makes the power only useful in either narrow areas (and I mean narrow) or against stationary targets. Now one could argue that the power should be used in lieu with crowd control folks. However, most players in the game aren’t very good at working as a team so this is rather unlikely to happen.
Recommendation: This would work better if it randomly selected 5 enemies in the area and went around each to drop a bomb dead on target, would also look pretty darn cool.
Overwhelm Shields
No meaningful usefulness. Shield tanks (not that they are viable any more anyway) would get little benefit from this power as current powers do a better job in a way that makes sense, as even for anyone else, shields are simply too flimsy to bother with a power that doesn’t do enough to fill them.
Recommendation: What if we took the name more literally. The more you shoot the enemy the fuller their shields get until they go critical and deal severe electrical damage over time with 100% shield penetration?
Timely Intervention
I’ll be honest, this power isn’t that useful. Good players are more than able to look after themselves in ground combat on a basic level, and for a supporting officer there is a much better method of preventing harm to your teammates; don’t let them get hurt in the first place. If you’re also lucky enough to have voice chat to be able to communicate to use this power, you’re communication is good enough to prevent the harm in the first place. This simply isn’t a viable power.
Recommendation: Complete rework into something else. Maybe better if you actually swapped places, so you go to them and they go to where you were while at the same time taking the aggro of whatever was targeting them, that would have some uses.
Return Fire
More damage as one’s health goes down. Letting your health go low and stay low just to buff your damage is making you a potential problem for your team.
Recommendation: It might be better to work this as a kind of team wide shield penetration power or something similar.
Take Cover
Firstly this power won’t benefit a melee person at all. Secondly it assumes that those who do stand to potentially benefit (ie, anyone using a medium to long range weapon) actually needs to stop moving at that point. Repositioning should always be happening for a firearms officer, even if they’re just small moves to improve your aim, so this is highly situational, and while there are times it’ll have its uses, they’re few and far between.
Recommendation: Haven’t really got one, good power really, just highly situational.
Shock and Awe
No real use. Only profession to stand to benefit from this is an engineer, and while it does lower the damage resistance for the target it isn’t going to be noticed in the grand scheme of things.
Recommendation: Not sure with this one.
Strategic Analysis
While this is much better than Return Fire, it becomes less useful as the competence of the team goes up, which wouldn’t be as big a deal if it weren’t for the fact the power cuts out as soon as one leaves red alert. Pretty much assigned it to the junk pile as soon as I saw that happen.
Recommendation: Make it work outside combat.
Sanctuary
I actually have no complaints about this since the rework. Probably won’t get a lot of use but it isn’t a bad power.
Recommendation: Maybe remove the run speed debuff, otherwise not a lot to say.
Delegated Devastation
I don’t know about this, I mean as I see it you have to buff 3 people to offset you not fighting. That means three people in the party using energy weapons, which is becoming increasingly unlikely to happen nowadays. Any less than 3, or simply having less than 3 who are competent enough to count as part of the offset would mean that this is rarely useful.
Recommendation: What if this power replaced everyone else’s crit severity or something with their own for a certain length of time? It’s just a thought but it would be quite an interesting mechanic.
Hammer and Anvil
This does have merit. The damage increase when flanking is pretty good. I would question the damage resistance buff however. Competent players do have reasonable resistance anyway.
Diminishing returns makes this buff pretty meek.
Recommendation: Buff the Damage Resistance.
EDIT: On the point of spec point acquisition, I thought I might try to get some points during this xp weekend. I managed to get 17 spec points. However that took 227 back-to-back Gerren runs, and it is just simply depressing when you think if it wasn't an event, you'd get half the spec points and so would have to run 454 of the darn things. My mate did 500 runs or so, god knows how, I thought I was the crazy one. So for him to have achieved the same he'd have had to do over 1000 runs.
Now considering this is the closest we can get to content that is rewarding enough for time investment and realistic progress this is shockingly poor, so now that the level cap has essentially increased to 140 (30(Command)+30(Intel)+15(Commando)+15(Pilot)+60(Level Cap)-10(for 50-60)=140) is it really reasonable to expect people to do this, because that is without taking alts into consideration.
Also, on a related note, I'm loving these combo type energy exposes and torpedo exploits, really good idea
Commander Science, Lieutenant Commander Engineering, Lieutenant Commander Universal, Lieutenant Tactical, Ensign Science
My character Tsin'xing
Expose Weakness I and II both give you the base Exploit value of -50 Damage Resistance Rating, with Rank II only increasing the Chance to Expose.
It is only by investing in Violent Detonation that the Damage Resistance Rating Ignored value is increased.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Ah right, gotcha. Thanks for the clarification
Commander Science, Lieutenant Commander Engineering, Lieutenant Commander Universal, Lieutenant Tactical, Ensign Science
Also not buying yet another ship so I can use a specific special slot.
These systems might be great for new players starting from scratch but for people around for years its just more grind to get more skills to use on missions we were burned out on long ago that we are only doing to grind out some new system you added