I do not have as in-depth knowledge of the novels and other non-show lore as some of the rest of you, but here is my take on the matter. It will be similar to much of the previous conversation.
The Romulan Star Empire as it was during the TNG/DS9 era was immensely powerful, but preferred to be a group of interstellar puppeteers. In terms of political climate, Romulus was a police state, but I wouldn't compare the Tal Shiar of that period to be quite as bad as the Gestapo. I inferred from the relevant episodes that it was similar to a cross between the CIA and KGB. It was designed as a mere intelligence agency, but over time became more oppressive and corrupted into more of a secret police force. I never inferred from the shows the the Tal Shiar was ever as senselessly violent and ruthless as the Gestapo. To me, the Romulans seem very goal-oriented, and don't just do things without a reason.
But after Hobus, Sela relied heavily on the Tal Shiar to retain power, as Taris and Donatra controlled the majority of the Romulan military for a long time. And by the time Donatra was assimilated and Taris was dealt with, the Romulan Republic fleet broke off from the rest of the military, weakening the Empire's military even more. So the Tal Shiar essentially became the rulers of the Empire. This meant that after Sela is defeated by the player, the Empire no longer exists, and the Tal Shiar is all that is left. And even though its alliance with the Iconians died with Hakeev, the Tal Shiar is still completely opposed to the Republic. I remind you of the T2 Romulan Rep mission, in which what is left of the Tal Shiar is still attempting to subvert the Republic's leadership, and when she is turned down by D'Tan, Khiana recommends assassinating him.
So personally, I have no desire to play in an Empire faction, because in-story, the Empire no longer exists. Neither the Federation nor the Klingon Empire recognize it any longer as a political entity because all that is left of it is the Tal Shiar, which is now an enemy even to those who prefer the Empire to the Republic.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
^^Basically the Damar reaction: "His Cardassia is dead, and it isn't coming back."
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Although Jeckle doesn't seem to realize it, the Republic DOES appeal to Romulan fans. Maybe not the goose-stepping kind, but those of us who got our ideas of Romulans from TOS/TAS and the novels published between the end of TOS and the beginning of TNG (and some published during the life of TNG). We are hardly "the lowest common denominator." We hold true to the original presentation of Romulans as honorable warriors, of a kind with Humans, often savage, but also many other pleasant things.
Blatantly misrepresenting arguments again, I see.
--Romulans were the most requested playable faction in the game. This much we know, because there was a poll.
--TNG-DS9 style Romulans are the ones most people are familiar with, and the overwhelming majority of Romulan appearances in series, movies, and games have been this type of Romulan. It is not a leap at all to think that folk who were voting for Romulans in that poll expected TNG/DS9 style Romulans, particularly since that type of Romulan was already well represented (if somewhat caricatured) in STO already.
-- "Lowest common denomenator" refers to Cryptic's redesign of the Romulans (by their own admission-they are on record saying this!) to appeal to a wider audience-in other words, people who normally wouldn't play Romulans...t.he reason given? Basically that TNG/DS9 Romulans are "bad guys" and "bad guys" don't sell as well as "good guys". The Republic wasn't designed to appeal to Romulan fans, it was designed to appeal to folks who like playing bland generic rebel alliance "good guys" - The "Lowest common denominator"
Funny, my recollection is that you straight up and started claiming numerical superiority and demanding that RSE supporters count the number of posts in a particular 10+ page thread which you claimed would prove overwhelming support for your position.
As for the IRW thing, perhaps you have noticed that RRW is the default prefix? Most people couldn't be bothered. I know when I was leveling my Romulan I sure as heck didn't bother to change the prefix for every ship I used when I was leveling, and the implementation of the IRW prefix has always been spotty to begin with. (not sure if it has been fixed yet-I only fly the D'deridex, so I wouldn't know) Most folk who play STO are pretty 'casual' in regards to how seriously they are into the Lore. Do you think the "Shinzorn's" flying around "Enterprize's" and "Normandy's" care about their prefix? Or about Romulan lore in general? I doubt it.
On the other hand, most folk I have talked to in game with IRW prefixes are pretty into Romulans. All this is anecdotal evidence anyways, so it matters little.
For The Record There's a good chance that there are more RR supporters than RSE supporters out there....but then again, that's how Cryptic designed it, isn't it? Making the Tal Shiar (even more) incompetent and cartoonishly evil, removing the RSE navy from the picture, making Hakeev effectively the face of the RSE for most of the Romulan content, combined with the Romulans getting the best boff traits, amazing ships, and access to most of their allies good toys (without the reverse being true) Along with (by Cryptic's own admission) taking the Romulan faction in a tonally and aesthetically divergent direction from what was expected to appeal to a broader audience.
Everything Cryptic did in regards with the Romulans (mechanically, tonally, and aesthetically) was designed first in foremost to bring in as many people who normally wouldn't be interested in playing Romulans. But with all this dilution to appeal to as wide an audience as possible, there is plenty of room for criticism that what remains is only tangentially Romulan.
YOur use of lowest common denominator is flawed. It is a mathematical term, not the elitist insult you mean it as. The Romulan Republic is a perfectly fine Romulan State. as many have show here, they have Romulan motives. No offense intended, but you sound like any number of racial or religious supremecists, decrying behavior you see as aberrant. The Romulan Republic was indeed made to be palatable to a wider audience, but Cryptic did not simply make Romulans in name only, as they could have. THey delved further into Romulan history than TNG and DS9, and portrayed Romulan culture as it was before, with some alterations for modern considerations. The Republic's culture is based on the society presented in TOS (what there was of it) and in the Rihannsu and Vulcan's Soul novels. This is the portrayal of Romulans as they were before the creation of the Tal Shiar and it's subsequent police state in 2344 The imposition of a culture of fear and paranoia always changes a culture. The Romulans in TNG and DS9 are just as much an aberration of Romulan culture as the Taliban changed Afghani culture, or the TRIBBLE changed German culture, or the Soviets changed Russian culture, or the Iranian revolution changed Iranian culture.
As for the numbers issue, lets just drops that. We Republic supporters can go on knowing we outnumber you (IC and OOC) and you Imperialists can go on knowing that you are more Romulan-than-thou. The numbers will not be fully proven because Cryptic isn't going to take a census, but it would be far better for all concerned if you simply accepted that the majority of Romulans have no desire to live under a fascists police state that has broken up into warlordism, and would rather have food on the table, money in the bank, and leaders who care about their well being than waste time adhering to nebulous ideas of Romulan Superiority and waste their lives fighting to restore the power of the oligarchs who squabble over the broken pieces of the RSE.
YOur use of lowest common denominator is flawed. It is a mathematical term, not the elitist insult you mean it as. The Romulan Republic is a perfectly fine Romulan State. as many have show here, they have Romulan motives. No offense intended, but you sound like any number of racial or religious supremecists, decrying behavior you see as aberrant. The Romulan Republic was indeed made to be palatable to a wider audience, but Cryptic did not simply make Romulans in name only, as they could have. THey delved further into Romulan history than TNG and DS9, and portrayed Romulan culture as it was before, with some alterations for modern considerations. The Republic's culture is based on the society presented in TOS (what there was of it) and in the Rihannsu and Vulcan's Soul novels. This is the portrayal of Romulans as they were before the creation of the Tal Shiar and it's subsequent police state in 2344 The imposition of a culture of fear and paranoia always changes a culture. The Romulans in TNG and DS9 are just as much an aberration of Romulan culture as the Taliban changed Afghani culture, or the TRIBBLE changed German culture, or the Soviets changed Russian culture, or the Iranian revolution changed Iranian culture.
As for the numbers issue, lets just drops that. We Republic supporters can go on knowing we outnumber you (IC and OOC) and you Imperialists can go on knowing that you are more Romulan-than-thou. The numbers will not be fully proven because Cryptic isn't going to take a census, but it would be far better for all concerned if you simply accepted that the majority of Romulans have no desire to live under a fascists police state that has broken up into warlordism, and would rather have food on the table, money in the bank, and leaders who care about their well being than waste time adhering to nebulous ideas of Romulan Superiority and waste their lives fighting to restore the power of the oligarchs who squabble over the broken pieces of the RSE.
Uh NO. 'Least Common Denominator is used completely correctly there, as even a cursory google search or a flip through a dictionary would tell you if you bothered:
"—used to say that the quality of something is poor because it is designed or intended to appeal to the largest possible number of people"
-Merriam Webster
Yes I am aware it is based off of the Rihannsu novels etc.
That doesn't change the fact that the Romulans Cryptic decided to pull out for LoR were in a tiny minority of on-screen-appearances seen in onlytwo episodes and heavily contradicted by on-screen portrayals in TNG, DS9, and ENT. Romulans have been very consistent in their portrayal of cultural values, to the point where Romulans are most obviously associated with the sneaky deceitful militant types seen in those shows.
Tal Shiar was retconned into existing prior to TOS by later Trek literature. If you are going to bring up off-screen literature to justify the Bizarro Romulans we have now, that needs to be pointed out. ENT showed that Romulans pre-TOS were very much like Romulans post-TOS, which brings into question all claims of TOS-Romulan culture being the 'norm'.
Rihannsu and co were always just convenient auxiliary content for Cryptic to point to when they decided to turn them into faux rebel alliance/bajoran resistance, and doesn't change the fundamental reasons they cited for making them so.
NO we don't have to agree with your ideas on what Romulans desire. Cardassians took all those nasty unpleasant traits as cultural virtues, no reason why the Romulans couldn't be similar. Again, ENT establishes Romulans as being like post-TOS Romulans, which makes STOs Republic look even more like abnormalities.
And it wasn't a waste of time, because prior to LOR, in the story that Cryptic themselves wrote, the Romulan Star Empire survived the destruction of their homeworld, still had the military strength to repel a full on Klingon invasion, and was supposedly had a bright future to look forward to under sela. So no, those things you listed as points against the RSE are not fundamental attributes of RSE leadership, but are just as mutable as what they replaced.
Heck, even as the narrative is right now, the Republic is responsible for the fracturing of the RSE, so your point in that regard is rather bizarre.
Cardassians took all those nasty unpleasant traits as cultural virtues, no reason why the Romulans couldn't be similar.
Stop right there. This, here, is the key flaw of your entire argument. Cardassians didn't take all those nasty unpleasant traits as cultural virtues, the Cardassian military dictatorship did. Cardassians are not naturally assholish, as shown by them overthrowing the dictatorship and establishing a democratic government within weeks of the loss of the Obsidian Order.
Likewise, the one single solitary ordinary Romulan civilian we met in the canon was far from being a sneaky dastardly Romulan supremacist; rather she was a terrified civilian under the thumb of a repressive police state. The TNG Romulans you point to are not representative of ordinary Romulans. The Republic, coming as it did from those Romulans, is.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
The Republic is not responsible for the fracturing of the RSE. THat started with Shinzon's coup, followed by the infighting between Tal'Aura's RSE and Donatra's IRS. Then Donatra disappeared, Sela took over the RSE, the IRS fractured, and then the RSE fractured after Sela's Iconian buddies betrayed her.
AS for ENT, the only Romulans we see in ENT is a pair of Intelligence officers, Valdore and Talok, and Senator Vrax. All the information I can find lists Valdore and Talok as being ROmulan military, not Tal Shiar. Talok's position in particular would be a Tal Shiar job, but both Memory Alpha and Beta list him as being military. Also, I can find no information as to the Tal Shiar being founded anytime other than in 2344 buy Praetor Devoras Narviat, as a replacement for the older, corrupt civilian intelligence agency.
Yes. The Empire had a bright, bright future to look forward to. LOR shows them up to their ears in Elachi and Iconian schemes before Virinat. If you can call Iconian servitude a bright future, than I would suggest you would be more happy living in North Korea. THe virtues you attest to the Cardassians were a result of Military control of the government. The Detapa council, the civilian government, had little to no power. Yet here the Cardassians are in a similar situation to the Romulans. The fall of the fascists governemt leads to freedom and democracy.
The Republic is not responsible for the fracturing of the RSE. THat started with Shinzon's coup, followed by the infighting between Tal'Aura's RSE and Donatra's IRS. Then Donatra disappeared, Sela took over the RSE, the IRS fractured, and then the RSE fractured after Sela's Iconian buddies betrayed her.
AS for ENT, the only Romulans we see in ENT is a pair of Intelligence officers, Valdore and Talok, and Senator Vrax. All the information I can find lists Valdore and Talok as being ROmulan military, not Tal Shiar. Talok's position in particular would be a Tal Shiar job, but both Memory Alpha and Beta list him as being military. Also, I can find no information as to the Tal Shiar being founded anytime other than in 2344 buy Praetor Devoras Narviat, as a replacement for the older, corrupt civilian intelligence agency.
Yes. The Empire had a bright, bright future to look forward to. LOR shows them up to their ears in Elachi and Iconian schemes before Virinat. If you can call Iconian servitude a bright future, than I would suggest you would be more happy living in North Korea. THe virtues you attest to the Cardassians were a result of Military control of the government. The Detapa council, the civilian government, had little to no power. Yet here the Cardassians are in a similar situation to the Romulans. The fall of the fascists governemt leads to freedom and democracy.
The Republic was part of the petty squabbling and fracturing, therefore it shares in the blame.
The book Kobayashi Maru sets the creation of the Tal Shiar in 2155, almost two centuries earlier than the 2344 figure.
I wasn't claiming that Valdore and co were Tal Shiar. Romulan military and civilians routinely involve themselves in duplicitous schemes, the Tal Shiar is not unique in that. Remember that we never once saw a Tal Shiar operative in all of TNG, all those scheming backstabbing Romulans were military or civilian.
I was talking about Pre-Legacy of Romulus, in regards to the 'bright future'. In case you didn't notice, the Elachii didn't exist in STO prior to LOR, Hakeev wasn't the ranking leader of the Tal Shiar, Sela and the Tal Shiar had a long-running rivalry, the Empress wasn't in league with Hakeev/the Iconians, and the Republic didn't form until after Sela's disappearance.
As for the Cardassians, the cardassian 'virtues' went further than just military control-we saw that it had permeated to the very roots of cardassian culture. "The Never Ending Sacrifice" is the most obvious example.
As for the constant comparison of RSE fans to TRIBBLE, racial supremacists, and other assorted fascists and dictators, I'd say to grow up, but even kids know that when you play cops and robbers, some folks play cops, and some play robbers, and you'd be hard pressed to find one who thought that kids who played robbers deserved to be thrown in jail IRL.
Particularly in a game where one can play as the 'Space Barbarians' that are the Klingons, who torture, murder, and enslave, that line of thinking is preposterous.
Stop right there. This, here, is the key flaw of your entire argument. Cardassians didn't take all those nasty unpleasant traits as cultural virtues, the Cardassian military dictatorship did. Cardassians are not naturally assholish, as shown by them overthrowing the dictatorship and establishing a democratic government within weeks of the loss of the Obsidian Order.
Likewise, the one single solitary ordinary Romulan civilian we met in the canon was far from being a sneaky dastardly Romulan supremacist; rather she was a terrified civilian under the thumb of a repressive police state. The TNG Romulans you point to are not representative of ordinary Romulans. The Republic, coming as it did from those Romulans, is.
Again, I point to "The Never Ending Sacrifice". Something that Cardassian culture holds in high regard, apparently.
You need to rewatch that scene, 'Soup lady' was not acting in a 'terrified' manner.
She thought they were security, and thought intercessor was in trouble- she fished for gossip and tried to curry favor with a free meal. Didn't seem 'terrified' to me.
She was suspicious and manipulative, just like any number of military or intelligence personnel we have seen, albeit on a much more petty level.
Again, I point to "The Never Ending Sacrifice". Something that Cardassian culture holds in high regard, apparently.
Correction: Garak held it in high regard, and I note he's a consummate liar by his own admission and an insider in the system whose virtues the book extolled. In the novel The Never-Ending Sacrifice (which follows that Cardassian kid who had been raised Bajoran from the episode "Cardassians"), Natima Lang called it a horrible propaganda piece by an oppressive regime and "our greatest lie". Considering the overthrow of the dictatorship by popular revolt the moment there was an opening, I think her interpretation is a lot closer to the truth.
Opinions are like ani. Everybody's got one.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Considering Natima Lang was a member of the dissident movement, her opinion is obviously colored somewhat.
The revolt was against the Dominion who were TRIBBLE over the Cardassian people majorly. Using them as cannon fodder, committing genocide on Cardassian civilians, etc etc.
Considering Natima Lang was a member of the dissident movement, her opinion is obviously colored somewhat.
The revolt was against the Dominion who were TRIBBLE over the Cardassian people majorly. Using them as cannon fodder, committing genocide on Cardassian civilians, etc etc.
I'm not talking about Damar's revolt, I'm talking about the one right at the end of season 3 that removed the military from power and restored the Detapa Council. The one that the Klingons thought the Founders had a hand in, which made them decide to unilaterally invade the Cardassian Union and then withdraw from the Khitomer Accords when the Federation called them out for being nitwits.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
The Republic wasn't even founded until long after the fracturing of the RSE had begun in earnest. And LOR is now STO canon. It's part of the story now. Complaining about how great things were for the Star Empire before LOR is exactly the same as what you and your friends say about those supporting the Republic and our liking for TOS. You are being hypocritical.
Starsword is right. When the military dictatorship fell, a revolt restored power to the Detapa Council. It was the Klingon invasion, and Gul Dukat's coup, that led to Cardassia joining the Dominion, and therefore to Damar's resistance movement.
That shop keeper seen in TNG was terrified of Picard and Data. Because he believed them to be TAL SHIAR. HE was terrified of the Tal Shiar, and the prospect that they were in hes shiop./ That says all that needs to be said, really. The Gestapo are here. It's time to consider wetting your pants.
P.S.: I never said that people how RP as RSE members should be sent to jail, nor have I compared them to TRIBBLE's. I compared the RSE and it's leadership to TRIBBLE Germany and TRIBBLE's. Strawman attacks are poor tactis.
I'm not talking about Damar's revolt, I'm talking about the one right at the end of season 3 that removed the military from power and restored the Detapa Council. The one that the Klingons thought the Founders had a hand in, which made them decide to unilaterally invade the Cardassian Union and then withdraw from the Khitomer Accords when the Federation called them out for being nitwits.
I got the feeling that the Coup in season four was not a popular uprising as much as it was a palace coup against the weakened Obsidian Order and more expansionist military factions that wanted to abrogate the Cardassian-Federation Treaty and dissolve the DMZ. Also the Never Ending Sacrifice was referenced as the quintessential expression of a whole genre of Cardassian literature.
Also Tolmarius Catoblepasbeta was referencing the fact that prior to LOR the story of the RSE was a country recovering from a long civil war under a powerful and charismatic leader, and this was retconned into a nest of cartoon villains to justify the shoehorning in of the Romulan Republic with its faction choosing and and Bajoran Militia storyline. Also it takes a lot of nerve to accuse your opponent of straw-manning when it is almost a perfect description of your forum faction's main method of operation.
The Republic wasn't even founded until long after the fracturing of the RSE had begun in earnest. And LOR is now STO canon. It's part of the story now. Complaining about how great things were for the Star Empire before LOR is exactly the same as what you and your friends say about those supporting the Republic and our liking for TOS. You are being hypocritical.
Starsword is right. When the military dictatorship fell, a revolt restored power to the Detapa Council. It was the Klingon invasion, and Gul Dukat's coup, that led to Cardassia joining the Dominion, and therefore to Damar's resistance movement.
That shop keeper seen in TNG was terrified of Picard and Data. Because he believed them to be TAL SHIAR. HE was terrified of the Tal Shiar, and the prospect that they were in his shiop./ That says all that needs to be said, really. The Gestapo are here. It's time to consider wetting your pants.
P.S.: I never said that people how RP as RSE members should be sent to jail, nor have I compared them to TRIBBLE's. I compared the RSE and it's leadership to TRIBBLE Germany and TRIBBLE's. Strawman attacks are poor tactis.
In regards to the TRIBBLE thing-if one's response to getting called out on it is to call the person calling you out on it of building a strawman...well you have some serious perspective issues. Trotting out Godwin's law and making comparisons to members of various extremist groups and dictatorships going on whenever someone comes mentions they are a fan of the Romulan Star Empire- that is the definition of a Straw man.
I am seriously doubting if you actually watched that episode now. You can't even get the gender of the person in question right. If she was terrified, she probably could have managed it with less smirking and brown nosing after she "figures out" (incorrectly) who they are. Nothing in that scene indicates that she was 'wetting' her pants over the idea of being in the same room. Quite the contrary, really.
I got the feeling that the Coup in season four was not a popular uprising as much as it was a palace coup against the weakened Obsidian Order and more expansionist military factions that wanted to abrogate the Cardassian-Federation Treaty and dissolve the DMZ. Also the Never Ending Sacrifice was referenced as the quintessential expression of a whole genre of Cardassian literature.
Also Tolmarius Catoblepasbeta was referencing the fact that prior to LOR the story of the RSE was a country recovering from a long civil war under a powerful and charismatic leader, and this was retconned into a nest of cartoon villains to justify the shoehorning in of the Romulan Republic with its faction choosing and and Bajoran Militia storyline. Also it takes a lot of nerve to accuse your opponent of straw-manning when it is almost a perfect description of your forum faction's main method of operation.
I got the feeling that the Coup in season four was not a popular uprising as much as it was a palace coup against the weakened Obsidian Order and more expansionist military factions that wanted to abrogate the Cardassian-Federation Treaty and dissolve the DMZ.
According to my source, there's been an uprising on the Cardassian homeworld. The Central Command has been overthrown and power has been transferred to civilian authorities.
Also the Never Ending Sacrifice was referenced as the quintessential expression of a whole genre of Cardassian literature.
By one person. And I can point to My Immortal being the "quintessential expression of a whole genre of Earth literature". That genre is called the "badfic". Being the "quintessential expression" of something doesn't mean that something is one of either objective or subjective quality.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
In regards to the TRIBBLE thing-if one's response to getting called out on it is to call the person calling you out on it of building a strawman...well you have some serious perspective issues. Trotting out Godwin's law and making comparisons to members of various extremist groups and dictatorships going on whenever someone comes mentions they are a fan of the Romulan Star Empire- that is the definition of a Straw man.
I am seriously doubting if you actually watched that episode now. You can't even get the gender of the person in question right. If she was terrified, she probably could have managed it with less smirking and brown nosing after she "figures out" (incorrectly) who they are. Nothing in that scene indicates that she was 'wetting' her pants over the idea of being in the same room. Quite the contrary, really.
Godwins Law is not a logical fallacy. It is an observation. And I am not comparing you or your erstwhile comrades to TRIBBLE's. I am comparing the Star Empire, for whom it is an entirely reasonable comparison. As for Sela, she is hardly a fit leader. Her one accomplishment was the use the Hirogen to usurp the throne and then abolish the Senate. Other than that, She has failed in every endeavor she has attempted, from the conquest of Vulcan to her alliance with the Iconians.
As for the shopkeeper, I apologize profusely and wholeheartedly for my utter audacity in daring to make a simple spelling error in your august presence. I shall commit myself to a regimen of flagellation in atonement for my most grievous sin.
Funny, my recollection is that you straight up and started claiming numerical superiority and demanding that RSE supporters count the number of posts in a particular 10+ page thread which you claimed would prove overwhelming support for your position.
Oh, I see we're back to one of your favorite rhetorical games: where you engage in four things:
1. denial
2. petitio principii
3. projection
4. vocalization of projection in the form "I know you are but what am I?"
It's really cute and semi-effective on the elementary school playground, and to a lesser extent even on the junior high school playground, but here it just shows the weakness of your position.
And this behavior is why so many people no longer want to engage in this forum. Your intransigent and petulant refusal to admit that YOU HAVE BEEN SHOWN TO BE WRONG REPEATEDLY, and yet when this is pointed out, you again repeat the cycle with the same 4 things, denying that anyone has shown you to be wrong, asserting your disproven position again and still without sufficient evidence, projecting your errors onto your opponents, and telling them that it is THEY who have been shown to be wrong repeatedly. Your behavior is pathetic and puerile. Go hop in the holding cell with Sela and take comfort from your beloved fellow incompetent.
Oh, I see we're back to one of your favorite rhetorical games: where you engage in four things:
1. denial
2. petitio principii
3. projection
4. vocalization of projection in the form "I know you are but what am I?"
It's really cute and semi-effective on the elementary school playground, and to a lesser extent even on the junior high school playground, but here it just shows the weakness of your position.
And this behavior is why so many people no longer want to engage in this forum. Your intransigent and petulant refusal to admit that YOU HAVE BEEN SHOWN TO BE WRONG REPEATEDLY, and yet when this is pointed out, you again repeat the cycle with the same 4 things, denying that anyone has shown you to be wrong, asserting your disproven position again and still without sufficient evidence, projecting your errors onto your opponents, and telling them that it is THEY who have been shown to be wrong repeatedly. Your behavior is pathetic and puerile. Go hop in the holding cell with Sela and take comfort from your beloved fellow incompetent.
Protogoth. Please. Stop.
Let the thread die, and let the EMPIRE FOREVAH!!! fanboy sulk in his corner.
This argument's been done more times than the thousands of Janeway's-a-psycho threads. There is nothing more that can be gained from the debate.
Godwins Law is not a logical fallacy. It is an observation. And I am not comparing you or your erstwhile comrades to TRIBBLE's. I am comparing the Star Empire, for whom it is an entirely reasonable comparison. As for Sela, she is hardly a fit leader. Her one accomplishment was the use the Hirogen to usurp the throne and then abolish the Senate. Other than that, She has failed in every endeavor she has attempted, from the conquest of Vulcan to her alliance with the Iconians.
As for the shopkeeper, I apologize profusely and wholeheartedly for my utter audacity in daring to make a simple spelling error in your august presence. I shall commit myself to a regimen of flagellation in atonement for my most grievous sin.
-Yes it is a Logical Fallacy. "TRIBBLE are bad. The Star Empire is bad. Anyone who likes the Star Empire must like TRIBBLE"
Same sort of reasoning whether it's Protogoth flat-out calling her opponents TRIBBLE or you comparing RSE-fans to Racial/Religious supremacists or insinuate that they'd fit in well with the North Korean regime.
Reductio ad Hitlerum and its ilk has no place here.
-As for Sela, she defeated a full-on Klingon invasion, and was supposedly doing a fairly good job of reuniting the empire and holding it together, and (at least pre-LOR) was interested in using diplomacy as a first option in getting colonies to rejoin.
-Right, you somehow misspelled her gender all three times, including somehow misspelling 'her' as 'his'. one letter out of three ain't bad, huh? :rolleyes: Sorry, I don't think you watched that episode, if it was just one misspelling, I wouldn't have brought it up.
Oh, I see we're back to one of your favorite rhetorical games: where you engage in four things:
1. denial
2. petitio principii
3. projection
4. vocalization of projection in the form "I know you are but what am I?"
It's really cute and semi-effective on the elementary school playground, and to a lesser extent even on the junior high school playground, but here it just shows the weakness of your position.
And this behavior is why so many people no longer want to engage in this forum. Your intransigent and petulant refusal to admit that YOU HAVE BEEN SHOWN TO BE WRONG REPEATEDLY, and yet when this is pointed out, you again repeat the cycle with the same 4 things, denying that anyone has shown you to be wrong, asserting your disproven position again and still without sufficient evidence, projecting your errors onto your opponents, and telling them that it is THEY who have been shown to be wrong repeatedly. Your behavior is pathetic and puerile. Go hop in the holding cell with Sela and take comfort from your beloved fellow incompetent.
Oh wow.:D
Your lack of self-awareness is staggering.
-'shown to be wrong repeatedly' in this case meaning 'stated to be wrong repeatedly'
- I don't think anything would be 'sufficient evidence' to you that TNG-Romulans were the most widespread depiction, considering on-screen evidence isn't enough for you.
- I don't need to project errors onto you. You haven't had anything worthwhile to bring to the table for a while. Nowdays its just throwing a dart at a wall to pick out a random fallacy to erroneously apply to whatever someone says in favor of the Romulans from TNG/DS9/ENT. That and incessant name calling, which I addressed in my responses to Tolmarius.
- Your own evidence is sorely lacking, and draws primarily from the Star Trek EU, not the shows or movies, which is mostly what I use for evidence. Even when provided with book material, (like the example on the founding of the Tal Shiar) you dismiss it, showing a double standard. heck the fact that outside of LoR, Cryptic doesn't treat EU stuff as equal to on-screen material doesn't seem to give you pause gives me plenty more reason to not think highly of your 'evidence'. (bluegills aren't mutant trill, Taris and Sela are still alive, there's no such thing as Watraii, no such thing as the Heart of Virtue, no Winged Defender class, etc etc)
Your response is one big intertwined Strawman Argument. You are:
1. Quoting my words out of context, pretending that my comparing the RSE to the TRIBBLE's and other fascist governments equates to me calling all non-Rpublic Romulans TRIBBLE's, and all STO players who like the RSE TRIBBLE's irl.
2. Pretending that someone who has made a mistake while defending a position is THE defender, and thus pretending that denying that defender's arguments defeats every other defender of that position, and thus the position itself.
3.Oversimplyfying the opponents argument ("TRIBBLE are bad. The Star Empire is bad. Anyone who likes the Star Empire must like TRIBBLE") and attacking this oversimplified version.
I have never called you or any of your erstwhile comrades TRIBBLE's. I have joked about you liking a government that is TRIBBLE-like, and I have made jokes about your desire to play the villains full time. But I have never called you a TRIBBLE, so kindly stop slandering me.
Sela in no way repeled a Klingon invasion of any sort. The only Klingon invasion was the one in 2389 that captured Tranome Sar and Naquencia. THat invasion/campaign went on for over a year until the far more competent Taris defeated J'mpok at Zeta Pictoris. Sela wouldn't usurp the praetorship for another 13 years.
As for your going on about Unification. I will admit that I made a mistake there about the character's gender. I was dead tired when I made that post and it has been some time since I have seen Unification. In fact, I've only seen it once, since I have better things to do than watch reruns of TNG obsessively, especially when TOS and DS9 are superior. But you are simply using my error as another strawman attack, as a means to attempt to disregard all of my arguments.
Your response is one big intertwined Strawman Argument. You are:
1. Quoting my words out of context, pretending that my comparing the RSE to the TRIBBLE's and other fascist governments equates to me calling all non-Rpublic Romulans TRIBBLE's, and all STO players who like the RSE TRIBBLE's irl.
2. Pretending that someone who has made a mistake while defending a position is THE defender, and thus pretending that denying that defender's arguments defeats every other defender of that position, and thus the position itself.
3.Oversimplyfying the opponents argument ("TRIBBLE are bad. The Star Empire is bad. Anyone who likes the Star Empire must like TRIBBLE") and attacking this oversimplified version.
I have never called you or any of your erstwhile comrades TRIBBLE's. I have joked about you liking a government that is TRIBBLE-like, and I have made jokes about your desire to play the villains full time. But I have never called you a TRIBBLE, so kindly stop slandering me.
Eh?
Protogoth is the one who keeps comparing folks who disagree with her to TRIBBLE. You however, have compared others to racial supremacists, religious supremacists, and insinuated that others would fit in with the North Korean regime. Which is just as vapid and insulting here as comparing them to TRIBBLE.
"TRIBBLE are bad. The Star Empire is bad. Anyone who likes the Star Empire must like TRIBBLE" is an association fallacy and is exactly what is going on when one compares someone they disagree with to TRIBBLE, Hitler, Stalin, etc. It's not 'oversimplifying' or building a strawman.
Sela in no way repeled a Klingon invasion of any sort. The only Klingon invasion was the one in 2389 that captured Tranome Sar and Naquencia. THat invasion/campaign went on for over a year until the far more competent Taris defeated J'mpok at Zeta Pictoris. Sela wouldn't usurp the praetorship for another 13 years.
Yes, it was Taris- that's correct. but I don't think Taris was necessarily more competent. Sela came to power in no small way because Taris was turning into a mad despot. The path to 2409 makes it clear that Sela was a better leader than Taris-more merciful in fact. But that of course was retconned out in LoR along with her rivalry with the Tal Shiar and her ignorance of the Iconian conspiracy.
For the record I was never terribly impressed with Sela even when she was on screen, but I don't think she needed to become more incompetent like she did in LoR, nor do I think she needed to be feeding her own people to mushroom aliens.
As for your going on about Unification. I will admit that I made a mistake there about the character's gender. I was dead tired when I made that post and it has been some time since I have seen Unification. In fact, I've only seen it once, since I have better things to do than watch reruns of TNG obsessively, especially when TOS and DS9 are superior. But you are simply using my error as another strawman attack, as a means to attempt to disregard all of my arguments.
Only disregarding your arguments in regard to that episode. Because you by your own admission aren't familiar with the episode. Also because you lied to cover up your error. It's not a strawman attack to point out that you don't seem to have a very good grasp of the episode in question, (and in fact, apparently hold in disregard people who do) because (again, by your own admission) you don't seem to have a very good grasp of that episode.
For the record, i don't "watch reruns of TNG obsessively" (now That's a strawman for you) I hopped onto netflix to watch the last few minutes of the episode to make sure I wasn't wrong about your assertion that soup lady was 'pants wettingly' afraid in that scene. Which she was not.
Protogoth is the one who keeps comparing folks who disagree with her to TRIBBLE. You however, have compared others to racial supremacists, religious supremacists, and insinuated that others would fit in with the North Korean regime. Which is just as vapid and insulting here as comparing them to TRIBBLE.
"TRIBBLE are bad. The Star Empire is bad. Anyone who likes the Star Empire must like TRIBBLE" is an association fallacy and is exactly what is going on when one compares someone they disagree with to TRIBBLE, Hitler, Stalin, etc. It's not 'oversimplifying' or building a strawman.
On the contrary, ...
Eventually, the law grew so widely cited that it spawned a backlash from those who thought TRIBBLE comparisons could be perfectly valid. As one Ars forum denizen put it last year, "I never really got the Godwin's law rule. TRIBBLE Germany was a reality and should be used as any part of history would be. If I have a valid point that I can make about something and it is directly quantifiable with TRIBBLE Germany, the point is still valid. Just because I mention TRIBBLE Germany doesn't invalidate it Are we going to change this rule every time a new evil force comes along, negating the current Godwin's law? The next law will be Bin Laden's law?"
Salon.com columnist Glenn Greenwald devoted an entire column to the topic, arguing that "the very notion that a major 20th Century event like German aggression is off-limits in political discussions is both arbitrary and anti-intellectual in the extreme. There simply are instances where such comparisons uniquely illuminate important truths."
Mother Jones writer Kevin Drum called the law "an endlessly tiresome way of feigning moral indignation" and hoped for its "repeal."
And as far back as 2005, libertarian writer Dave Weigel wrote that we'd all be "better off rolling back Godwin's Law and admitting the all-purpose usefulness of TRIBBLE analogies."
Godwin's law does not claim to articulate a fallacy; it is instead framed as a memetic tool to reduce the incidence of inappropriate hyperbolic comparisons.
-- Source (emphasis added)
More to the point, ...
Godwin's law applies especially to inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic comparisons of other situations (or one's opponent) with TRIBBLE often referred to as "playing the Hitler card". The law and its corollaries would not apply to discussions covering known mainstays of TRIBBLE Germany such as genocide, eugenics, or racial superiority, nor, more debatably, to a discussion of other totalitarian regimes or ideologies, if that was the explicit topic of conversation, because a TRIBBLE comparison in those circumstances may be appropriate.
-- Source (emphasis added)
Nobody has committed Association Fallacy in pointing out the similarities between the RSE and TRIBBLE Germany, nor, more specifically, between the Tal'Shiar and the Gestapo. Your effort to paint what we have said as Association Fallacy is where your Straw Man comes in. YOU KNOW THIS, BUT YOU HAVE REPEATEDLY ATTEMPTED TO TWIST WHAT WE HAVE SAID INTO THIS CARICATURE. The argument we have put forth is that there are numerous similarities between the RSE and the TRIBBLE (and especially between the Tal'Shiar and the Gestapo). Yet, even when we compared the Tal'Shiar to the KGB or NKVD, you cried "foul" lest the truth interrupt your perverse phantasy of glorious raptor vomiting all over any effort to restore the ORIGINAL presentation of Romulans as honorable warriors.
In 1990, Godwin got fed up with TRIBBLE comparisons on bulletin boards, Usenet newsgroups, and the WELL discussion site. So prevalent had these comparisons become that Godwin began to wonder how debates had ever occurred without having that handy rhetorical hammer.
He believed that most of these comparisons simply trivialized the Holocaust and the true horror of the TRIBBLE regime and so consciously decided to build a countermeme designed to make discussion participants see how they were (and are) acting as vectors to a particularly silly and offensive meme. The result was Godwin's Law in its original form:
<< As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving TRIBBLE or Hitler approaches one. >>
The destruction of the Eisn system and the mass murder of BILLIONS are ABSOLUTELY WORTHY OF COMPARISON TO NAZISM WITHOUT MIKE GODWIN GETTING HIS KNICKERS IN A TWIST OVER "TRIVIALIZING" THE HOLOCAUST. Your efforts to dismiss this comparison as somehow fallacious (when never did Godwin claim a fallacy was being committed) are nauseating.
But Godwin never meant the law to cover all TRIBBLE comparisons, only "glib comparisons," as he wrote in a follow-up note to Greenwald. Godwin reflected on the law in a 2008 piece for Jewcy:
<< I sometimes have some ambivalence about the law, which is far beyond my control these days When I saw the photographs from Abu Ghraib, for example, I understood instantly the connection between the humiliations inflicted there and the ones the TRIBBLE imposed upon death camp inmatesbut I am the one person in the world least able to draw attention to that valid comparison.
Overall, though, I'm content that the law has as much popcult traction as it does. My feeling is that "Never Again" loses its meaning if we don't regularly remind ourselves of the terrible inflection point marked in human culture by the Holocaust Key to that obligation is remembering, which is what Godwin's Law is all about. >>
When he saw the success his counter-meme had, Godwin began pondering the ethics of the situationif destructive memes could spread virus-like through Internet society, did people have a positive ethical duty to create counter-memes? In Cyber Rights, he put it this way:
<< When we see a bad or false meme go by, should we take pains to chase it with a countermeme? Do we have an obligation to improve our informational environment? The time has come, I think, for good netizens and committed First Amendment supporters to commit ourselves to memetic engineeringcrafting good memes that improve society as well as "anti-viral" countermemes that may neutralize and even eliminate the bad memes floating around out there on the Net and in society at large. >>
Incidentally, ...
One of the funnier offshoots of Godwin's Law is Bright's Law, created by some guy named Peter Bright: "If you cannot work out whether someone is trolling or merely stupid, the answer is probably both."
Catoblepas, I never compared you to a TRIBBLE. In case you have not been paying attention, I am coparing the RSE to TRIBBLE's. It is a very appropriate comparison, as they hit all the high points. Racist, ultranationalist, militarist polices, persecution of minorities and their own people, commiting genocide and war crimes by the bushel, totalitarian government, and so on. They even have their own version of the Gestapo in the Tal Shiar. So I will say it again. I compare the RSE to TRIBBLE's. I needle RSE lovers because of their devotion to a fictional TRIBBLE-like state, and joke about their desire to have a villainous state as a viable player faction, but I have never refered to you as a TRIBBLE.
AS for Sela:
1. Her rivalry with the Tal Shiar, and distrust of them was never retconned out. Perhaps you should go back and play "Cloak and Dagger", where Sela choose the Romulan PC, disguised as a Tal Shiar agent, to be her personal eyes and ears in the Tal Shiar. That sounds like she distrusts them on some level. And if she was so buddied up with them, why did she leave Hakeev to die instead of smothering the area with troops from that dreadnought she was in? In fact, pretty much the only thing I like about her is that she was seemingly the only person in the RSE with the sand to tell Hakeev what a bloody moron he had been when his grand scheme to betray his people to extra-dimensional eldritch abomanations collapsed around his shiny dome.
2. She made deals with the Iconians because she naively thought that she could cheat the devil of his due. But the Elachi transformation....I'm somewhat certain that that is one thing she can't be accused of. She was a dictator. She did allow numerous war crimes to happen under her command. But she seemed genuinely shocked by the elachi process in that mission. I'm reasonably certain that she was unaware of what was happening, and thus while she does have command responsibility for that going on, I doubt she knowingly allowed it.
And finally, I already told you that I was tired when I made that post, and mixing minor characters up, not lieing. I could go the same route, and accuse you of lieing about Sela repeling an invasion, and you noit having a very good grasp on the lore, but I won't, because neither of us are lieing. And I certainly did not admit to not having a good grasp of the episode in question. I said that it had been a while since I saw it. I too went on Netflix to take another look. Regardless, the soup lady is scared of them. She's wary, and tries to avoid talking to them. Why? Because she thinksthey are Tal Shair. She's sure they are rounding someone (Pardek) up, and wants no part of it. The KGB are on the block. Don't give them reason to look closer at you.
...
Nobody has committed Association Fallacy in pointing out the similarities between the RSE and TRIBBLE Germany, nor, more specifically, between the Tal'Shiar and the Gestapo. Your effort to paint what we have said as Association Fallacy is where your Straw Man comes in. YOU KNOW THIS, BUT YOU HAVE REPEATEDLY ATTEMPTED TO TWIST WHAT WE HAVE SAID INTO THIS CARICATURE. ...
When you call people who propose being able to play as TNG-style RSE Romulans the 'Mein kampf crowd'....yes that is exactly what you are doing. Ad hominim piled upon association fallacy. Not an isolated incident either. Doesn't take a very observant eye to go through your posts and see instances of you comparing folks who voice their desire to play as RSE to TRIBBLE or something similar.
I don't even know why I bother replying anymore. Much more constructive debate to be had on these forums.
Catoblepas, I never compared you to a TRIBBLE. In case you have not been paying attention, I am coparing the RSE to TRIBBLE's. It is a very appropriate comparison, as they hit all the high points. Racist, ultranationalist, militarist polices, persecution of minorities and their own people, commiting genocide and war crimes by the bushel, totalitarian government, and so on. They even have their own version of the Gestapo in the Tal Shiar. So I will say it again. I compare the RSE to TRIBBLE's. I needle RSE lovers because of their devotion to a fictional TRIBBLE-like state, and joke about their desire to have a villainous state as a viable player faction, but I have never refered to you as a TRIBBLE.
Again, you didn't say that....that was directed at Protogoth. I apologize if that wasn't clear. What you have done is compare me to a racial/religious supremacist and insinuate that I'd fit in well with the North Korean regime, which is a just plain nasty thing to say.
AS for Sela:
1. Her rivalry with the Tal Shiar, and distrust of them was never retconned out. Perhaps you should go back and play "Cloak and Dagger", where Sela choose the Romulan PC, disguised as a Tal Shiar agent, to be her personal eyes and ears in the Tal Shiar. That sounds like she distrusts them on some level. And if she was so buddied up with them, why did she leave Hakeev to die instead of smothering the area with troops from that dreadnought she was in? In fact, pretty much the only thing I like about her is that she was seemingly the only person in the RSE with the sand to tell Hakeev what a bloody moron he had been when his grand scheme to betray his people to extra-dimensional eldritch abomanations collapsed around his shiny dome.
Prior to LoR she had no involvement with Hakeev, now he is her right hand. She didn't even have any spoken lines of dialogue with him before. She originally just showed up in response to Starfleet/KDF invading a RSE planet. They also removed the RSE military from the game, replacing them entirely with Tal Shiar. For me, at least, that counts as some considerable cozying-up to the Tal Shiar.
At least they have kept some ambiguity in the last episode as to what exactly her role was.
2. She made deals with the Iconians because she naively thought that she could cheat the devil of his due. But the Elachi transformation....I'm somewhat certain that that is one thing she can't be accused of. She was a dictator. She did allow numerous war crimes to happen under her command. But she seemed genuinely shocked by the elachi process in that mission. I'm reasonably certain that she was unaware of what was happening, and thus while she does have command responsibility for that going on, I doubt she knowingly allowed it.
Although it does bear repeating: She was not in league with the Iconians at all prior to LoR. The worst she was guilty of before was letting the Hirogen have the run of Romulan space. Which isn't so much different from Remans under Obiseks' watch hunting Romulan refugees for sport.
And finally, I already told you that I was tired when I made that post, and mixing minor characters up, not lieing. I could go the same route, and accuse you of lieing about Sela repeling an invasion, and you noit having a very good grasp on the lore, but I won't, because neither of us are lieing. And I certainly did not admit to not having a good grasp of the episode in question. I said that it had been a while since I saw it. I too went on Netflix to take another look. Regardless, the soup lady is scared of them. She's wary, and tries to avoid talking to them. Why? Because she thinksthey are Tal Shair. She's sure they are rounding someone (Pardek) up, and wants no part of it. The KGB are on the block. Don't give them reason to look closer at you.
Well, I did concede that I was wrong and mixed up Sela and Taris in that regard when you pointed out my error.
If you are mixing her up with another (male) character, that does make assertions on her state of mind questionable as well. Now that you have re-watched that part, perhaps we can restart this debate more productively
I think soup lady is suspicious, but I also think that's a pretty typical Romulan trait-so I don't think there's anything particularly odd about it. She's got a wariness about her, (which would be expected, since she thinks they are police) but it goes away quickly after she (falsely) gleans their agenda.
If she was scared senseless, I don't think she would have been too eager to pry into their business, even after they gave her their cover story. Nor do I think she would be as quick with a smirk or be currying favor by giving away free meals and throwing her neighbor under the bus by implying he's disloyal.
I think her as an example of a (non-unificationist) civilian as showing how dangerous and manipulative even the lowliest of Romulans can be.
What's that, you say? "D'Tan's Grand Imperial Palace"? You mean the Capitol City on New Romulus? Oh, you insist it's not a city at all? Well, Foreman Kylor begs to differ:
Although it does bear repeating: She was not in league with the Iconians at all prior to LoR. The worst she was guilty of before was letting the Hirogen have the run of Romulan space. Which isn't so much different from Remans under Obiseks' watch hunting Romulan refugees for sport.
A, that never happened. I do recall Remans pirating Mining Guild ships prior to Hobus (Star Trek: Countdown), but that's a different situation.
B, Obisek is not the leader of the entire Reman people. He is the leader of a particular resistance movement and the de facto leader of the Republic-affiliated Remans, and before that was simply a planetary militia commander who was living quite happily on Crateris until the Tal Shiar f*cked that up like they f*ck up everything else they touch. What other members of his species do is not on him.
What's that, you say? "D'Tan's Grand Imperial Palace"? You mean the Capitol City on New Romulus? Oh, you insist it's not a city at all? Well, Foreman Kylor begs to differ:
In fairness to everyone who thinks that the city consists of an embassy, the military headquarters, and a bunch of tents, that's all we're actually allowed to visit since Cryptic did half a job and called it good.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Comments
The Romulan Star Empire as it was during the TNG/DS9 era was immensely powerful, but preferred to be a group of interstellar puppeteers. In terms of political climate, Romulus was a police state, but I wouldn't compare the Tal Shiar of that period to be quite as bad as the Gestapo. I inferred from the relevant episodes that it was similar to a cross between the CIA and KGB. It was designed as a mere intelligence agency, but over time became more oppressive and corrupted into more of a secret police force. I never inferred from the shows the the Tal Shiar was ever as senselessly violent and ruthless as the Gestapo. To me, the Romulans seem very goal-oriented, and don't just do things without a reason.
But after Hobus, Sela relied heavily on the Tal Shiar to retain power, as Taris and Donatra controlled the majority of the Romulan military for a long time. And by the time Donatra was assimilated and Taris was dealt with, the Romulan Republic fleet broke off from the rest of the military, weakening the Empire's military even more. So the Tal Shiar essentially became the rulers of the Empire. This meant that after Sela is defeated by the player, the Empire no longer exists, and the Tal Shiar is all that is left. And even though its alliance with the Iconians died with Hakeev, the Tal Shiar is still completely opposed to the Republic. I remind you of the T2 Romulan Rep mission, in which what is left of the Tal Shiar is still attempting to subvert the Republic's leadership, and when she is turned down by D'Tan, Khiana recommends assassinating him.
So personally, I have no desire to play in an Empire faction, because in-story, the Empire no longer exists. Neither the Federation nor the Klingon Empire recognize it any longer as a political entity because all that is left of it is the Tal Shiar, which is now an enemy even to those who prefer the Empire to the Republic.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Blatantly misrepresenting arguments again, I see.
--Romulans were the most requested playable faction in the game. This much we know, because there was a poll.
--TNG-DS9 style Romulans are the ones most people are familiar with, and the overwhelming majority of Romulan appearances in series, movies, and games have been this type of Romulan. It is not a leap at all to think that folk who were voting for Romulans in that poll expected TNG/DS9 style Romulans, particularly since that type of Romulan was already well represented (if somewhat caricatured) in STO already.
-- "Lowest common denomenator" refers to Cryptic's redesign of the Romulans (by their own admission-they are on record saying this!) to appeal to a wider audience-in other words, people who normally wouldn't play Romulans...t.he reason given? Basically that TNG/DS9 Romulans are "bad guys" and "bad guys" don't sell as well as "good guys". The Republic wasn't designed to appeal to Romulan fans, it was designed to appeal to folks who like playing bland generic rebel alliance "good guys" - The "Lowest common denominator"
Funny, my recollection is that you straight up and started claiming numerical superiority and demanding that RSE supporters count the number of posts in a particular 10+ page thread which you claimed would prove overwhelming support for your position.
As for the IRW thing, perhaps you have noticed that RRW is the default prefix? Most people couldn't be bothered. I know when I was leveling my Romulan I sure as heck didn't bother to change the prefix for every ship I used when I was leveling, and the implementation of the IRW prefix has always been spotty to begin with. (not sure if it has been fixed yet-I only fly the D'deridex, so I wouldn't know) Most folk who play STO are pretty 'casual' in regards to how seriously they are into the Lore. Do you think the "Shinzorn's" flying around "Enterprize's" and "Normandy's" care about their prefix? Or about Romulan lore in general? I doubt it.
On the other hand, most folk I have talked to in game with IRW prefixes are pretty into Romulans. All this is anecdotal evidence anyways, so it matters little.
For The Record There's a good chance that there are more RR supporters than RSE supporters out there....but then again, that's how Cryptic designed it, isn't it? Making the Tal Shiar (even more) incompetent and cartoonishly evil, removing the RSE navy from the picture, making Hakeev effectively the face of the RSE for most of the Romulan content, combined with the Romulans getting the best boff traits, amazing ships, and access to most of their allies good toys (without the reverse being true) Along with (by Cryptic's own admission) taking the Romulan faction in a tonally and aesthetically divergent direction from what was expected to appeal to a broader audience.
Everything Cryptic did in regards with the Romulans (mechanically, tonally, and aesthetically) was designed first in foremost to bring in as many people who normally wouldn't be interested in playing Romulans. But with all this dilution to appeal to as wide an audience as possible, there is plenty of room for criticism that what remains is only tangentially Romulan.
As for the numbers issue, lets just drops that. We Republic supporters can go on knowing we outnumber you (IC and OOC) and you Imperialists can go on knowing that you are more Romulan-than-thou. The numbers will not be fully proven because Cryptic isn't going to take a census, but it would be far better for all concerned if you simply accepted that the majority of Romulans have no desire to live under a fascists police state that has broken up into warlordism, and would rather have food on the table, money in the bank, and leaders who care about their well being than waste time adhering to nebulous ideas of Romulan Superiority and waste their lives fighting to restore the power of the oligarchs who squabble over the broken pieces of the RSE.
"—used to say that the quality of something is poor because it is designed or intended to appeal to the largest possible number of people"
-Merriam Webster
Yes I am aware it is based off of the Rihannsu novels etc.
That doesn't change the fact that the Romulans Cryptic decided to pull out for LoR were in a tiny minority of on-screen-appearances seen in onlytwo episodes and heavily contradicted by on-screen portrayals in TNG, DS9, and ENT. Romulans have been very consistent in their portrayal of cultural values, to the point where Romulans are most obviously associated with the sneaky deceitful militant types seen in those shows.
Tal Shiar was retconned into existing prior to TOS by later Trek literature. If you are going to bring up off-screen literature to justify the Bizarro Romulans we have now, that needs to be pointed out. ENT showed that Romulans pre-TOS were very much like Romulans post-TOS, which brings into question all claims of TOS-Romulan culture being the 'norm'.
Rihannsu and co were always just convenient auxiliary content for Cryptic to point to when they decided to turn them into faux rebel alliance/bajoran resistance, and doesn't change the fundamental reasons they cited for making them so.
NO we don't have to agree with your ideas on what Romulans desire. Cardassians took all those nasty unpleasant traits as cultural virtues, no reason why the Romulans couldn't be similar. Again, ENT establishes Romulans as being like post-TOS Romulans, which makes STOs Republic look even more like abnormalities.
And it wasn't a waste of time, because prior to LOR, in the story that Cryptic themselves wrote, the Romulan Star Empire survived the destruction of their homeworld, still had the military strength to repel a full on Klingon invasion, and was supposedly had a bright future to look forward to under sela. So no, those things you listed as points against the RSE are not fundamental attributes of RSE leadership, but are just as mutable as what they replaced.
Heck, even as the narrative is right now, the Republic is responsible for the fracturing of the RSE, so your point in that regard is rather bizarre.
Stop right there. This, here, is the key flaw of your entire argument. Cardassians didn't take all those nasty unpleasant traits as cultural virtues, the Cardassian military dictatorship did. Cardassians are not naturally assholish, as shown by them overthrowing the dictatorship and establishing a democratic government within weeks of the loss of the Obsidian Order.
Likewise, the one single solitary ordinary Romulan civilian we met in the canon was far from being a sneaky dastardly Romulan supremacist; rather she was a terrified civilian under the thumb of a repressive police state. The TNG Romulans you point to are not representative of ordinary Romulans. The Republic, coming as it did from those Romulans, is.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
AS for ENT, the only Romulans we see in ENT is a pair of Intelligence officers, Valdore and Talok, and Senator Vrax. All the information I can find lists Valdore and Talok as being ROmulan military, not Tal Shiar. Talok's position in particular would be a Tal Shiar job, but both Memory Alpha and Beta list him as being military. Also, I can find no information as to the Tal Shiar being founded anytime other than in 2344 buy Praetor Devoras Narviat, as a replacement for the older, corrupt civilian intelligence agency.
Yes. The Empire had a bright, bright future to look forward to. LOR shows them up to their ears in Elachi and Iconian schemes before Virinat. If you can call Iconian servitude a bright future, than I would suggest you would be more happy living in North Korea. THe virtues you attest to the Cardassians were a result of Military control of the government. The Detapa council, the civilian government, had little to no power. Yet here the Cardassians are in a similar situation to the Romulans. The fall of the fascists governemt leads to freedom and democracy.
The book Kobayashi Maru sets the creation of the Tal Shiar in 2155, almost two centuries earlier than the 2344 figure.
I wasn't claiming that Valdore and co were Tal Shiar. Romulan military and civilians routinely involve themselves in duplicitous schemes, the Tal Shiar is not unique in that. Remember that we never once saw a Tal Shiar operative in all of TNG, all those scheming backstabbing Romulans were military or civilian.
I was talking about Pre-Legacy of Romulus, in regards to the 'bright future'. In case you didn't notice, the Elachii didn't exist in STO prior to LOR, Hakeev wasn't the ranking leader of the Tal Shiar, Sela and the Tal Shiar had a long-running rivalry, the Empress wasn't in league with Hakeev/the Iconians, and the Republic didn't form until after Sela's disappearance.
As for the Cardassians, the cardassian 'virtues' went further than just military control-we saw that it had permeated to the very roots of cardassian culture. "The Never Ending Sacrifice" is the most obvious example.
As for the constant comparison of RSE fans to TRIBBLE, racial supremacists, and other assorted fascists and dictators, I'd say to grow up, but even kids know that when you play cops and robbers, some folks play cops, and some play robbers, and you'd be hard pressed to find one who thought that kids who played robbers deserved to be thrown in jail IRL.
Particularly in a game where one can play as the 'Space Barbarians' that are the Klingons, who torture, murder, and enslave, that line of thinking is preposterous.
You need to rewatch that scene, 'Soup lady' was not acting in a 'terrified' manner.
She thought they were security, and thought intercessor was in trouble- she fished for gossip and tried to curry favor with a free meal. Didn't seem 'terrified' to me.
She was suspicious and manipulative, just like any number of military or intelligence personnel we have seen, albeit on a much more petty level.
Opinions are like ani. Everybody's got one.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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The revolt was against the Dominion who were TRIBBLE over the Cardassian people majorly. Using them as cannon fodder, committing genocide on Cardassian civilians, etc etc.
I'm not talking about Damar's revolt, I'm talking about the one right at the end of season 3 that removed the military from power and restored the Detapa Council. The one that the Klingons thought the Founders had a hand in, which made them decide to unilaterally invade the Cardassian Union and then withdraw from the Khitomer Accords when the Federation called them out for being nitwits.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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Starsword is right. When the military dictatorship fell, a revolt restored power to the Detapa Council. It was the Klingon invasion, and Gul Dukat's coup, that led to Cardassia joining the Dominion, and therefore to Damar's resistance movement.
That shop keeper seen in TNG was terrified of Picard and Data. Because he believed them to be TAL SHIAR. HE was terrified of the Tal Shiar, and the prospect that they were in hes shiop./ That says all that needs to be said, really. The Gestapo are here. It's time to consider wetting your pants.
P.S.: I never said that people how RP as RSE members should be sent to jail, nor have I compared them to TRIBBLE's. I compared the RSE and it's leadership to TRIBBLE Germany and TRIBBLE's. Strawman attacks are poor tactis.
I got the feeling that the Coup in season four was not a popular uprising as much as it was a palace coup against the weakened Obsidian Order and more expansionist military factions that wanted to abrogate the Cardassian-Federation Treaty and dissolve the DMZ. Also the Never Ending Sacrifice was referenced as the quintessential expression of a whole genre of Cardassian literature.
Also Tolmarius Catoblepasbeta was referencing the fact that prior to LOR the story of the RSE was a country recovering from a long civil war under a powerful and charismatic leader, and this was retconned into a nest of cartoon villains to justify the shoehorning in of the Romulan Republic with its faction choosing and and Bajoran Militia storyline. Also it takes a lot of nerve to accuse your opponent of straw-manning when it is almost a perfect description of your forum faction's main method of operation.
In regards to the TRIBBLE thing-if one's response to getting called out on it is to call the person calling you out on it of building a strawman...well you have some serious perspective issues. Trotting out Godwin's law and making comparisons to members of various extremist groups and dictatorships going on whenever someone comes mentions they are a fan of the Romulan Star Empire- that is the definition of a Straw man.
I am seriously doubting if you actually watched that episode now. You can't even get the gender of the person in question right. If she was terrified, she probably could have managed it with less smirking and brown nosing after she "figures out" (incorrectly) who they are. Nothing in that scene indicates that she was 'wetting' her pants over the idea of being in the same room. Quite the contrary, really.
Perfectly said.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Godwins Law is not a logical fallacy. It is an observation. And I am not comparing you or your erstwhile comrades to TRIBBLE's. I am comparing the Star Empire, for whom it is an entirely reasonable comparison. As for Sela, she is hardly a fit leader. Her one accomplishment was the use the Hirogen to usurp the throne and then abolish the Senate. Other than that, She has failed in every endeavor she has attempted, from the conquest of Vulcan to her alliance with the Iconians.
As for the shopkeeper, I apologize profusely and wholeheartedly for my utter audacity in daring to make a simple spelling error in your august presence. I shall commit myself to a regimen of flagellation in atonement for my most grievous sin.
Oh, I see we're back to one of your favorite rhetorical games: where you engage in four things:
1. denial
2. petitio principii
3. projection
4. vocalization of projection in the form "I know you are but what am I?"
It's really cute and semi-effective on the elementary school playground, and to a lesser extent even on the junior high school playground, but here it just shows the weakness of your position.
And this behavior is why so many people no longer want to engage in this forum. Your intransigent and petulant refusal to admit that YOU HAVE BEEN SHOWN TO BE WRONG REPEATEDLY, and yet when this is pointed out, you again repeat the cycle with the same 4 things, denying that anyone has shown you to be wrong, asserting your disproven position again and still without sufficient evidence, projecting your errors onto your opponents, and telling them that it is THEY who have been shown to be wrong repeatedly. Your behavior is pathetic and puerile. Go hop in the holding cell with Sela and take comfort from your beloved fellow incompetent.
Protogoth. Please. Stop.
Let the thread die, and let the EMPIRE FOREVAH!!! fanboy sulk in his corner.
This argument's been done more times than the thousands of Janeway's-a-psycho threads. There is nothing more that can be gained from the debate.
Grand Master Thotok, son of Koloth, I.K.S. Sompek==Dahar Master Shanara, I.K.S. Balth'Quv
Admiral R'Tath V'Tirex, R.R.W. Dhael Glohha'enh==Commander Ta'eth Korval, R.R.W Hachae ch'Rhian==Admiral Vranuk, R.R.W Delevhas
-Yes it is a Logical Fallacy. "TRIBBLE are bad. The Star Empire is bad. Anyone who likes the Star Empire must like TRIBBLE"
Same sort of reasoning whether it's Protogoth flat-out calling her opponents TRIBBLE or you comparing RSE-fans to Racial/Religious supremacists or insinuate that they'd fit in well with the North Korean regime.
Reductio ad Hitlerum and its ilk has no place here.
-As for Sela, she defeated a full-on Klingon invasion, and was supposedly doing a fairly good job of reuniting the empire and holding it together, and (at least pre-LOR) was interested in using diplomacy as a first option in getting colonies to rejoin.
-Right, you somehow misspelled her gender all three times, including somehow misspelling 'her' as 'his'. one letter out of three ain't bad, huh? :rolleyes: Sorry, I don't think you watched that episode, if it was just one misspelling, I wouldn't have brought it up.
Oh wow.:D
Your lack of self-awareness is staggering.
-'shown to be wrong repeatedly' in this case meaning 'stated to be wrong repeatedly'
- I don't think anything would be 'sufficient evidence' to you that TNG-Romulans were the most widespread depiction, considering on-screen evidence isn't enough for you.
- I don't need to project errors onto you. You haven't had anything worthwhile to bring to the table for a while. Nowdays its just throwing a dart at a wall to pick out a random fallacy to erroneously apply to whatever someone says in favor of the Romulans from TNG/DS9/ENT. That and incessant name calling, which I addressed in my responses to Tolmarius.
- Your own evidence is sorely lacking, and draws primarily from the Star Trek EU, not the shows or movies, which is mostly what I use for evidence. Even when provided with book material, (like the example on the founding of the Tal Shiar) you dismiss it, showing a double standard. heck the fact that outside of LoR, Cryptic doesn't treat EU stuff as equal to on-screen material doesn't seem to give you pause gives me plenty more reason to not think highly of your 'evidence'. (bluegills aren't mutant trill, Taris and Sela are still alive, there's no such thing as Watraii, no such thing as the Heart of Virtue, no Winged Defender class, etc etc)
1. Quoting my words out of context, pretending that my comparing the RSE to the TRIBBLE's and other fascist governments equates to me calling all non-Rpublic Romulans TRIBBLE's, and all STO players who like the RSE TRIBBLE's irl.
2. Pretending that someone who has made a mistake while defending a position is THE defender, and thus pretending that denying that defender's arguments defeats every other defender of that position, and thus the position itself.
3.Oversimplyfying the opponents argument ("TRIBBLE are bad. The Star Empire is bad. Anyone who likes the Star Empire must like TRIBBLE") and attacking this oversimplified version.
I have never called you or any of your erstwhile comrades TRIBBLE's. I have joked about you liking a government that is TRIBBLE-like, and I have made jokes about your desire to play the villains full time. But I have never called you a TRIBBLE, so kindly stop slandering me.
Sela in no way repeled a Klingon invasion of any sort. The only Klingon invasion was the one in 2389 that captured Tranome Sar and Naquencia. THat invasion/campaign went on for over a year until the far more competent Taris defeated J'mpok at Zeta Pictoris. Sela wouldn't usurp the praetorship for another 13 years.
As for your going on about Unification. I will admit that I made a mistake there about the character's gender. I was dead tired when I made that post and it has been some time since I have seen Unification. In fact, I've only seen it once, since I have better things to do than watch reruns of TNG obsessively, especially when TOS and DS9 are superior. But you are simply using my error as another strawman attack, as a means to attempt to disregard all of my arguments.
Eh?
Protogoth is the one who keeps comparing folks who disagree with her to TRIBBLE. You however, have compared others to racial supremacists, religious supremacists, and insinuated that others would fit in with the North Korean regime. Which is just as vapid and insulting here as comparing them to TRIBBLE.
"TRIBBLE are bad. The Star Empire is bad. Anyone who likes the Star Empire must like TRIBBLE" is an association fallacy and is exactly what is going on when one compares someone they disagree with to TRIBBLE, Hitler, Stalin, etc. It's not 'oversimplifying' or building a strawman.
Yes, it was Taris- that's correct. but I don't think Taris was necessarily more competent. Sela came to power in no small way because Taris was turning into a mad despot. The path to 2409 makes it clear that Sela was a better leader than Taris-more merciful in fact. But that of course was retconned out in LoR along with her rivalry with the Tal Shiar and her ignorance of the Iconian conspiracy.
For the record I was never terribly impressed with Sela even when she was on screen, but I don't think she needed to become more incompetent like she did in LoR, nor do I think she needed to be feeding her own people to mushroom aliens.
Only disregarding your arguments in regard to that episode. Because you by your own admission aren't familiar with the episode. Also because you lied to cover up your error. It's not a strawman attack to point out that you don't seem to have a very good grasp of the episode in question, (and in fact, apparently hold in disregard people who do) because (again, by your own admission) you don't seem to have a very good grasp of that episode.
For the record, i don't "watch reruns of TNG obsessively" (now That's a strawman for you) I hopped onto netflix to watch the last few minutes of the episode to make sure I wasn't wrong about your assertion that soup lady was 'pants wettingly' afraid in that scene. Which she was not.
On the contrary, ...
-- Source
Godwin's law does not claim to articulate a fallacy; it is instead framed as a memetic tool to reduce the incidence of inappropriate hyperbolic comparisons.
-- Source (emphasis added)
More to the point, ...
Godwin's law applies especially to inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic comparisons of other situations (or one's opponent) with TRIBBLE often referred to as "playing the Hitler card". The law and its corollaries would not apply to discussions covering known mainstays of TRIBBLE Germany such as genocide, eugenics, or racial superiority, nor, more debatably, to a discussion of other totalitarian regimes or ideologies, if that was the explicit topic of conversation, because a TRIBBLE comparison in those circumstances may be appropriate.
-- Source (emphasis added)
Nobody has committed Association Fallacy in pointing out the similarities between the RSE and TRIBBLE Germany, nor, more specifically, between the Tal'Shiar and the Gestapo. Your effort to paint what we have said as Association Fallacy is where your Straw Man comes in. YOU KNOW THIS, BUT YOU HAVE REPEATEDLY ATTEMPTED TO TWIST WHAT WE HAVE SAID INTO THIS CARICATURE. The argument we have put forth is that there are numerous similarities between the RSE and the TRIBBLE (and especially between the Tal'Shiar and the Gestapo). Yet, even when we compared the Tal'Shiar to the KGB or NKVD, you cried "foul" lest the truth interrupt your perverse phantasy of glorious raptor vomiting all over any effort to restore the ORIGINAL presentation of Romulans as honorable warriors.
-- Source
The destruction of the Eisn system and the mass murder of BILLIONS are ABSOLUTELY WORTHY OF COMPARISON TO NAZISM WITHOUT MIKE GODWIN GETTING HIS KNICKERS IN A TWIST OVER "TRIVIALIZING" THE HOLOCAUST. Your efforts to dismiss this comparison as somehow fallacious (when never did Godwin claim a fallacy was being committed) are nauseating.
Incidentally, ...
-- Source
I don't for a moment believe you to be stupid. The possibility that you are trolling has entered my mind on numerous occasions, however.
Seriously, this debate's been going on since LoR launched, and it isn't getting any younger.
I dont think she can give it up.... its like OCD for her at this point.
AS for Sela:
1. Her rivalry with the Tal Shiar, and distrust of them was never retconned out. Perhaps you should go back and play "Cloak and Dagger", where Sela choose the Romulan PC, disguised as a Tal Shiar agent, to be her personal eyes and ears in the Tal Shiar. That sounds like she distrusts them on some level. And if she was so buddied up with them, why did she leave Hakeev to die instead of smothering the area with troops from that dreadnought she was in? In fact, pretty much the only thing I like about her is that she was seemingly the only person in the RSE with the sand to tell Hakeev what a bloody moron he had been when his grand scheme to betray his people to extra-dimensional eldritch abomanations collapsed around his shiny dome.
2. She made deals with the Iconians because she naively thought that she could cheat the devil of his due. But the Elachi transformation....I'm somewhat certain that that is one thing she can't be accused of. She was a dictator. She did allow numerous war crimes to happen under her command. But she seemed genuinely shocked by the elachi process in that mission. I'm reasonably certain that she was unaware of what was happening, and thus while she does have command responsibility for that going on, I doubt she knowingly allowed it.
And finally, I already told you that I was tired when I made that post, and mixing minor characters up, not lieing. I could go the same route, and accuse you of lieing about Sela repeling an invasion, and you noit having a very good grasp on the lore, but I won't, because neither of us are lieing. And I certainly did not admit to not having a good grasp of the episode in question. I said that it had been a while since I saw it. I too went on Netflix to take another look. Regardless, the soup lady is scared of them. She's wary, and tries to avoid talking to them. Why? Because she thinksthey are Tal Shair. She's sure they are rounding someone (Pardek) up, and wants no part of it. The KGB are on the block. Don't give them reason to look closer at you.
When you call people who propose being able to play as TNG-style RSE Romulans the 'Mein kampf crowd'....yes that is exactly what you are doing. Ad hominim piled upon association fallacy. Not an isolated incident either. Doesn't take a very observant eye to go through your posts and see instances of you comparing folks who voice their desire to play as RSE to TRIBBLE or something similar.
I don't even know why I bother replying anymore. Much more constructive debate to be had on these forums.
Again, you didn't say that....that was directed at Protogoth. I apologize if that wasn't clear. What you have done is compare me to a racial/religious supremacist and insinuate that I'd fit in well with the North Korean regime, which is a just plain nasty thing to say.
Prior to LoR she had no involvement with Hakeev, now he is her right hand. She didn't even have any spoken lines of dialogue with him before. She originally just showed up in response to Starfleet/KDF invading a RSE planet. They also removed the RSE military from the game, replacing them entirely with Tal Shiar. For me, at least, that counts as some considerable cozying-up to the Tal Shiar.
At least they have kept some ambiguity in the last episode as to what exactly her role was.
Although it does bear repeating: She was not in league with the Iconians at all prior to LoR. The worst she was guilty of before was letting the Hirogen have the run of Romulan space. Which isn't so much different from Remans under Obiseks' watch hunting Romulan refugees for sport.
Well, I did concede that I was wrong and mixed up Sela and Taris in that regard when you pointed out my error.
If you are mixing her up with another (male) character, that does make assertions on her state of mind questionable as well. Now that you have re-watched that part, perhaps we can restart this debate more productively
I think soup lady is suspicious, but I also think that's a pretty typical Romulan trait-so I don't think there's anything particularly odd about it. She's got a wariness about her, (which would be expected, since she thinks they are police) but it goes away quickly after she (falsely) gleans their agenda.
If she was scared senseless, I don't think she would have been too eager to pry into their business, even after they gave her their cover story. Nor do I think she would be as quick with a smirk or be currying favor by giving away free meals and throwing her neighbor under the bus by implying he's disloyal.
I think her as an example of a (non-unificationist) civilian as showing how dangerous and manipulative even the lowliest of Romulans can be.
Truth dispels propaganda -- again.
B, Obisek is not the leader of the entire Reman people. He is the leader of a particular resistance movement and the de facto leader of the Republic-affiliated Remans, and before that was simply a planetary militia commander who was living quite happily on Crateris until the Tal Shiar f*cked that up like they f*ck up everything else they touch. What other members of his species do is not on him.
In fairness to everyone who thinks that the city consists of an embassy, the military headquarters, and a bunch of tents, that's all we're actually allowed to visit since Cryptic did half a job and called it good.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/