Are you doing this intentionally as an attempt to distort the facts, are you in denial, do you have such a short attention span that you cannot actually read anything longer than a sentence or two, do you only read far enough until you erroneously assume you have a weak point to attack, or are you simply incapable of understanding what is presented?.
Perhaps you should read what you block quote and drop into this chat from a wiki instead of just assuming anything you post is defacto irrefutable proof of your particular brand of fanon.
No, he was not appointed by the Republic military. Those portions of the Romulan Star Navy which rebelled WERE the Republic at the time. Read the entire quote. It makes plain that the "Republic" at its inception was made up of portions of the Romulan Star Navy. It goes on to describe subsequent events, including the player character coming into contact with the already-extant Republic.?
The quote you posted straight out states that the Republic military elected him. How I'm aware that much of the Republic military is ex Star Empire Military, how does that change anything? A militarily appointed leader is still a militarily appointed leader, and not a democratically elected one.
As for your claim about territory, have you looked at the galaxy map at all since Delta Rising went live? Do you imagine that all the Romulan worlds visited by the player character would remain under the control of the Star Empire? Even the Brea system, where the Tal'Shiar had its stronghold, fell to the player character, Obisek, and their various crew.
The Brea system was a commando raid, not an invasion force. None of the RSE worlds we visit are even mentioned as joining the Republic, which is all it would take. Besides, if Brea/Rator etc fell, one would think that it'd be worth mentioning. The lack of this makes me think that the map isn't entirely accurate.
And finally, interacting on friendly terms with a power which still openly attacks your own nation-state, has declared all political and military personnel of your own nation-state to be "terrorists," and covertly attempts to subvert your nation-state would be the sort of appeasement behavior which your gang of imperialists attributes to those you refer to as "space hippies" and "Federation Lite."
Except the Tal Shiar hasn't been active in the story for ages. Since their gambit to sabotage New Romulus to force D'Tan to their side failed miserably, they haven't really been on the stage. There isn't much of a conflict going on at all as far as us players know.
The perfect time for an official treaty to be signed, in a lull in the fighting.
I'm sure putting Sela to death or whatever will improve relations tenfold with the RSE though.
Well, im not as articulate or as passionate as either of them. However, I support the Romulan Republic and the grand experiment that D'Tan is helping engineer.
Something about the TNG episode where the Klingon and Cardassian scoff at the idea of being similar to the humans and Federation, where the Romulans accepting of the similarities
Ancient Griffon insult
That one is so stupid, he lost a Rock/Paper/Scissors game to a Pony.
protogoth
As it was said by catoblepasbeta, even the source you quote show only that D'tan was "elected" by the people who take part in the violant uprising. There is at least for now no valide source that he ever had to face re-election when or if the Republic grow - not when the Remans joined, and not when/if other worlds joined.
And of course it would make no sense (beside the lunatic believe in a "new society" in a "city upon a hill") that if Rator III and other major worlds would have indeed fallen to the Republic that the capital would be the faked New Romulos and not the real one (or another much better developed world with much more people on its soil). Only a fool would stay on a rough and unsecure world like Second New Romulus which is so near to unsafe borders, when he had other options.
A united "EMPIRE" is not a middle way by any stretch of the imagination, and this entirely biased view in favor of EMPIRE plus your assertion that Sela has more of what it takes to be a leader than D'Tan should lay bare for all to see that you are not a supporter of the Republic as you have pretended, but a blatant imperialist who should go crawl into the bunker with the last fanatical devotees of the losing (imperial) side.
What is your problem? There were reforms mentioned, so why this crying? Or is it the deep, unfounded hate you have against any EVIL Empire, a fact you try to deny but are unable to do so. *g*
The Empire is a proud Romulan Past, I would say, Present and very likely Future. That mean not it may not have republican elements like the RSE before Shinzon. But surely not copy of a foreign ideology and foreign values which means nothing for true Romulans (beside - in they eyes of the majority - some brainwashed fools, who need some help very much).
And of course Sela has much more what it needs to be a leader. She has courage, cunning, could intrigate and manipulate. She could do what is necessary, and her actions were honoured even by her enemies. If you look how the game goes, than it needs much more that than the naive behavior of D'Tan, fanboy of Spock. A leader has not be to be a nice person, far from it. By the way I had said she had much more what it need to be a leader than D'Tan. Honestly - to be just better than HE, I mus say, THAT is no huge problem *g*
And I must again made clear that the so called democracy the "Republicans" are so much enthusiastic about is nothing more than a lie, since its greatest "defenders" have HUGE problems with any point of view beside their own. Anyone who disagree too much - he had not take actions or so, and could also have done a lot for the Republic - they wish to force to exile or worse. Yeah, a new Republican Society, free blablabla... *g*
As catoblepasbeta pointed it out very well, from a Romulan perspective it would be a good time for peace, a first step towards unity and reunification (the reunification which really matters for most Romulans, not this stupid Vulcan-thing). If they treat the Empress as leader of the RSE (D'Tan had not problems to play buddy with the Klingon on the Fed head of State or Obisek who together killed surely many, MANY Romulans) instead of creating some kind of "justice" (what would be of course only the revenge from Selas greatest enemies), than a lot could be achieved. If the Republicans were wise enough - what means if the few with brains and not the many with the passion and the loud voices decide.
So in other words, he was appointed by the Republic military.
So how that supposed to prove that the average Romulan had a say in his rise to power? :rolleyes:
Fact of the matter is, we may not know how he got his position, but it probably wasn't by Republic-wide election.
Funny thing about countries' inaugural leaders: regardless of the form of government in use, they tend not to have been democratically elected by a majority of their constituents. That includes the United States: George Washington was effectively appointed the first POTUS, and ran unopposed for his second term. Simple fact is, somebody's gotta be in charge while you're setting things up.
That does not, however, automatically mean the legislative processes of the Republic are not democratic. Just because the head of state wants reunification does not make it official government policy. Barack Obama wants a raise to the minimum wage, but it has to pass Congress. (That's just an example: I'm not interested in starting a real-world political discussion.)
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
protogoth
As it was said by catoblepasbeta, even the source you quote show only that D'tan was "elected" by the people who take part in the violant uprising. There is at least for now no valide source that he ever had to face re-election when or if the Republic grow - not when the Remans joined, and not when/if other worlds joined.
And of course it would make no sense (beside the lunatic believe in a "new society" in a "city upon a hill") that if Rator III and other major worlds would have indeed fallen to the Republic that the capital would be the faked New Romulos and not the real one (or another much better developed world with much more people on its soil). Only a fool would stay on a rough and unsecure world like Second New Romulus which is so near to unsafe borders, when he had other options.
As I noted previously, "I can already predict the reactions of most of the imperialists to this information with some degree of accuracy." The simple fact of the matter is that it would not matter what my source were; you two would still deny its authority and continue to spew the falsehoods with which you have attempted to cast doubt on the Republic for months. Even here, the attempt to paint the Republic as a "violent uprising" is transparent; the violence was the reaction of Sela and her cronies to those who would "dare" to follow the example of the ancestors and simply leave to go their own way. Defending oneself and one's fellows from violent aggression does not constitute a "violent uprising."
The Rator system is closer to unsafe borders than the Mol'Rihan system is.
What is your problem? There were reforms mentioned, so why this crying? Or is it the deep, unfounded hate you have against any EVIL Empire, a fact you try to deny but are unable to do so. *g*
On the contrary, I have never attempted to deny my hatred for "evil" (if you insist on continuing to parrot the dualistic views of the Sklavenmoral by utilizing such an emotively-charged and metaphysically unsatisfying term) empires. A time did exist, however, when the RSE was a society of honorable warriors; that time is sadly long gone, and what now calls itself "Rihannsu Stelam Shiar" (more properly "Shiar ih'Saeihr Rihan") is, for most people, a corrupt, decadent, repressive tyranny which is too far gone to bother with trying to reform.
The Empire is a proud Romulan Past, I would say, Present and very likely Future. That mean not it may not have republican elements like the RSE before Shinzon. But surely not copy of a foreign ideology and foreign values which means nothing for true Romulans (beside - in they eyes of the majority - some brainwashed fools, who need some help very much).
Yes, a proud past did exist, but even it was never perfect; only brainwashed fools (or those who look back only through the rose-tinted glasses of nostalgia to an imaginary "Golden Age" which has never existed in any society) believe otherwise. The ideals of Republic are not "foreign," but universal, and "No True Scotsman" is still a fallacy.
And of course Sela has much more what it needs to be a leader. She has courage, cunning, could intrigate and manipulate. She could do what is necessary, and her actions were honoured even by her enemies. If you look how the game goes, than it needs much more that than the naive behavior of D'Tan, fanboy of Spock. A leader has not be to be a nice person, far from it. By the way I had said she had much more what it need to be a leader than D'Tan. Honestly - to be just better than HE, I mus say, THAT is no huge problem *g*
Sela is narcissistic, incompetent, megalomaniacal, and Machiavellian, at the very least. These are not the virtues of leadership, but symptoms of psychosis and sociopathy.
And I must again made clear that the so called democracy the "Republicans" are so much enthusiastic about is nothing more than a lie, since its greatest "defenders" have HUGE problems with any point of view beside their own. Anyone who disagree too much - he had not take actions or so, and could also have done a lot for the Republic - they wish to force to exile or worse. Yeah, a new Republican Society, free blablabla... *g*
Damaged Personality Disorder much? Stop playing the victim; the Star Empire is the abuser in this scenario.
As catoblepasbeta pointed it out very well, from a Romulan perspective it would be a good time for peace, a first step towards unity and reunification (the reunification which really matters for most Romulans, not this stupid Vulcan-thing). If they treat the Empress as leader of the RSE (D'Tan had not problems to play buddy with the Klingon on the Fed head of State or Obisek who together killed surely many, MANY Romulans) instead of creating some kind of "justice" (what would be of course only the revenge from Selas greatest enemies), than a lot could be achieved. If the Republicans were wise enough - what means if the few with brains and not the many with the passion and the loud voices decide.
And again with the "but you are all so MEAN to the poor, innocent, disadvantaged imperialists who have done nothing unethical" -- except attempt covert subversion of the Republic, overt aggression against the Republic (from its inception) and even loyal colony worlds of the Star Empire itself, kidnapping of Republic citizens (and even citizens of the Star Empire itself) who were turned over to an alien race to seed with their spores and were then eaten from the inside out, brainwashing of Republic military personnel, torture of everyone they could get their hands on (including loyal daughters and sons of the Star Empire itself), mass murder of citizens of the Star Empire itself (yes, Hobus again, and no, we will NOT forget this!), suppression of dissent, the enslavement of loyal citizens of the Star Empire ... A veritable litany of the worst acts and intentions known to history. But we are somehow unfair to them. Riiiiiight.
Oh, and uh, Passion is an intrinsic part of what it means to be Romulan. Or did you lose sight of that somewhere along the way in your tirade of propaganda against the Republic and gushing over the "glorious" crumbling ruin that was once worthy of some respect but is now only worthy of burial?
Funny thing about countries' inaugural leaders: regardless of the form of government in use, they tend not to have been democratically elected by a majority of their constituents. That includes the United States: George Washington was effectively appointed the first POTUS, and ran unopposed for his second term. Simple fact is, somebody's gotta be in charge while you're setting things up.
That does not, however, automatically mean the legislative processes of the Republic are not democratic. Just because the head of state wants reunification does not make it official government policy. Barack Obama wants a raise to the minimum wage, but it has to pass Congress. (That's just an example: I'm not interested in starting a real-world political discussion.)
Yes, I'm aware. But there still have not been any elections yet, so he cannot have been elected by the populous. The true test of a Rebellion is when the first ruler steps down to allow the populous to choose their own leader. That hasn't happened yet, so the Republic hasn't passed the test yet. Washington passed that test, D'Tan has yet to.
The RR becomes a Republic/Democracy as soon as fair elections are held.
The fact that the Republic seems to be holding off on any sort of reconciliation with the RSE so far could indicate that they are concerned that the current ruling body might not remain so if they let any Romulan join the Republic and have a say in the Government.
We never see or hear about a legislative branch of the RR, so we don't know if/how much of a say they have in the government.
Yes, I'm aware. But there still have not been any elections yet, so he cannot have been elected by the populous. The true test of a Rebellion is when the first ruler steps down to allow the populous to choose their own leader. That hasn't happened yet, so the Republic hasn't passed the test yet. Washington passed that test, D'Tan has yet to.
The RR becomes a Republic/Democracy as soon as fair elections are held.
Granted. But as an organized state the Republic is barely a year old. These things take a while. Again, the "early United States" analogy: Washington stuck around for eight years, two constitutional terms of office, before stepping down.
The fact that the Republic seems to be holding off on any sort of reconciliation with the RSE so far could indicate that they are concerned that the current ruling body might not remain so if they let any Romulan join the Republic and have a say in the Government.
I can think of a couple alternate explanations for that, actually, neither of which require a reinterpretation of D'Tan's portrayal:
There effectively isn't an RSE anymore because the government collapsed after Sela's abduction. Succession crisis in an absolute monarchy with no heir presumptive, you follow me? (Based on statements from Cryptic, this is the official explanation.)
There is a continuing RSE, but they aren't interested in reconciling with their successor state. Diplomacy is a two-way street; you can't negotiate with yourself. You can talk about diplomacy and seeking a peaceful resolution all you want, but unless the other side actually wants to engage, it's just rhetoric. I recall "Hidden Camera", where D'Tan told that Tal'Shiar officer to her face that he wanted to reunite all Romulans, provided it happened consensually and out in the open. This doesn't suit the aims of the Tal'Shiar. Good bet it wouldn't suit what supporters Sela has either.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Well, you have no argument that the Republic is more than a uprising (or at least the result of one). There was no legal ground on which D'Tans movement could build their breakaway, no authority which had legal power according to the law of the RSE had legalized this split. So of course it is not legal, and it was the right of the RSE to react - the WAY this was done may be another question. As far as I know (you may show me the § of the Romulan law to show me I am wrong) there was never a right to break away from the Empire and build your own state. And even less to do so by cooperation with the enemies of the Romulan people.
To seperate yourself illegaly and than "defend" yourself when the government react is a very tricky thing. And hardly to call simple defensive in nature.
And "honourable warriors" well, this may be a narrow-minded point of view. Surely nearly none Romulan will share it to see the past in THIS way. Since most Romulans have a past (or their families have one) with the RSE of the 24th century only some fools will see that as BAD. Remember just the Republican Operative during Delta Rising who honoured the Empire until the Hobus-incident (what mean, even after Shinzon, and of course before). I think she stands much more for a majority than this warrior-jumbo-mumbo which sounds more if a Klingon would say it.
So if you claim the values of the Republic are not foreign, than tell me, when was a democracy D'Tan stile (I mean, in real sources, in-canon, so to speak, not non-canon information) in Romulan history? The RSE ruled over centuries, so it is hard to believe that any such thing does effect much romulans of the 24/25th century...
And wasn't the Reunification-movement which members play a big role in the Republic not much influenced by foreigners? Even D'tan speaks about (and praise) Spock, Spock, and - surprise, surprise - Spock. He NOT speaks (as far as I remember) about some ancient or not-so ancient Romulan thinker who argued for democracy and/or reunification with the Vulcans (if there was many).
Sela is narcissistic, incompetent, megalomaniacal, and Machiavellian, at the very least. These are not the virtues of leadership, but symptoms of psychosis and sociopathy.
Well, Machiavellian is a virtue I think many Romulans will understand a leader needs, and she was so "incompetent" that even Star Fleet Officers honoured her takeover and calming of the Romulan Civil War and called her one of (if not THE best) leader Romulans had since destruction of New Romulus (and you could argue if that would not also include "since Shinzons coup"). Yeah, very incompetent. But facts, well, facts do not matter...:D
And it is funny how ANY real or so called crime is brought up against the RSE (even things which were done by some dozen people who were not much more than puppets in the hands of the Iconians) while any crime the Republic and her beloved Reman, Klingon and Federation friends have done are ignored. That the RSE acted hostile against the Republic is no crime, since the Republic never had a real legalization - she is nothing more (and maybe less) than other parties in the civil war the Romulans had seen since Shinzon. And as it was written her it seems that Sela was not aware of some actions of Hakeev, and of course had no hand in the Hobus-thing, and in other areas disagree with Hakeev. Same could be said, of course, for other actors of the RSE. The Iconian-thing was not 100 percent Hakeevs agenda, that is of course true, and it may be that Sela (other than she claim) did know at least something what was done with the prisoners. But of course Hakeev he played a big role, and many other surely did not know very much.
Of course passion is important. But at first it should not made people blind and stupid, and of course it must be passion for the right things (or I think at least many Romulans will see it so). Passion for the tradition and for the Empire is a noble thing, athing which goes back over generations and were core of Romulan society (and most families had several members who sacrificed their lives for that passion - and were killed by Klingons, Feds, others foes and may Remans). Passion to destroy the Empire or passion to follow foreigners is either directed wrong or even criminal in many eyes.
Stop playing the victim; the Star Empire is the abuser in this scenario.
Ah, THAT old justification...
WE are the good one! We are for freedom, tralala - as long as it is OUR freedom and no one DARE to use this so called freedom to say another opinion. If he do that than he MUST be TRAITOR, a infiltrator, a servant of the BAD ENEMY.
This only shows that "freedom" D'Tan style mean only freedom to spit on what is holy for most Romulans, pray to what is foreign for most Romulans, and follow without questions those, which most Romulans would never trust as leaders, doing so with good cause. If that is the freedom for which the Republicans are fighting, well...
starswordc
But that shows also that he was, I think, either very stupid or lied. Her arguments why that "out in the open" would not work were 100 percent true, I would say (at least there are strong arguments for that). Either he did not see it (than he is a fool, not able to rule even a kindergarden) or he was not honest with his claim, since he did know that she never could work open, at least at that point. And what is the problem with secret negotiations? Spock himself does the same thing, more than once I guess...
As reluctant as I am to step into this, I have to point out that many of the Republicans had no choice about whose side they pick.
Multiple worlds had Romulans on it who were independant-bothering nobody as they built new lives for themselves and conceivably wouldn't have resisted if Sela had stormed in and taken over by installing a military presence there. But an element of the Star Empire itself-the Tal Shiar swooped down on those harmless worlds and killed or abducted most of the population to feed to the Elachi.
For many Republicans it was a choice between joining up with D'Tan who offered food, medicine, shelter and a degree of safety... Or being rounded up and turned into Elachi food.
And this is still the choice they have. True most Republicans probably don't care about reunification or about how the society is run. But D'Tan is holding out food and a blanket. The Tal Shiar offer a cold tube and Elachi-spore.
As long as the RSE doesn't offer something better than the Republic, it won't hold. Tradition and culture don't mean much when you're hungry.
Well, you have no argument that the Republic is more than a uprising (or at least the result of one). There was no legal ground on which D'Tans movement could build their breakaway, no authority which had legal power according to the law of the RSE had legalized this split. So of course it is not legal, and it was the right of the RSE to react - the WAY this was done may be another question. As far as I know (you may show me the § of the Romulan law to show me I am wrong) there was never a right to break away from the Empire and build your own state. And even less to do so by cooperation with the enemies of the Romulan people.
To seperate yourself illegaly and than "defend" yourself when the government react is a very tricky thing. And hardly to call simple defensive in nature.
Fun fact about Law: In the philosophy and practice of Jurisprudence, there's this little principle known as "precedence." If the departure from the jurisdiction and control of the Star Empire by those who became the Republic, and their establishment of the Republic, be illegal under Romulan Law, then so was the departure of the ancestors from Vulcan during The Sundering, and every government they have founded since, including that of the Romulan Star Empire. While one might object with an ex post facto assertion as an attempted justification, such a law would nevertheless have very strong implications as I have stated, damning the very existence of the Star Empire in spirit, if not in explicit word.
And "honourable warriors" well, this may be a narrow-minded point of view. Surely nearly none Romulan will share it to see the past in THIS way. Since most Romulans have a past (or their families have one) with the RSE of the 24th century only some fools will see that as BAD. Remember just the Republican Operative during Delta Rising who honoured the Empire until the Hobus-incident (what mean, even after Shinzon, and of course before). I think she stands much more for a majority than this warrior-jumbo-mumbo which sounds more if a Klingon would say it.
You are not familiar with the Romulans of TOS, are you?
So if you claim the values of the Republic are not foreign, than tell me, when was a democracy D'Tan stile (I mean, in real sources, in-canon, so to speak, not non-canon information) in Romulan history? The RSE ruled over centuries, so it is hard to believe that any such thing does effect much romulans of the 24/25th century...
And wasn't the Reunification-movement which members play a big role in the Republic not much influenced by foreigners? Even D'tan speaks about (and praise) Spock, Spock, and - surprise, surprise - Spock. He NOT speaks (as far as I remember) about some ancient or not-so ancient Romulan thinker who argued for democracy and/or reunification with the Vulcans (if there was many).
Sela herself states (in-game, in one of the voice-overs), that the Republic is reaching far into the past of Romulan history for inspiration. You may dislike what you regard as non-canon as much as you want; Cryptic has made use of significant bits of such for their own story. Thus, it is authoritative for STO.
As for Reunification, I have pointed out before, as have others, that Surakians were also among those who willingly departed from Vulcan in The Sundering. Thus, Surakian ideals are not "foreign," but have been part of Romulan and Reman culture since before the discovery of the Eisn system where ch'Rihan and ch'Havran were located.
The remainder of your post consists of the same old and tired attempts to make claims which have no basis in a vain effort to excuse the poor, mistreated Tal'Shiar and the milites gloriosi of the Star Empire. I do not care to engage in redundancy by showing, yet again, how they are illogical assertions.
D'Tan is trying to throw away what was best about being Romulan, while Sela wants to bring back everything that was BAD about being romulan.
A middle ground HAS to be found. One where Romulans are not throwing away what it means to be a Romulan, while at the same time trying to rule through fear like the Tal shiar.
.[/QUOTE/]
Cryptic has to make a mission and pve que about freeing Donatra. She's not THAT assimilated just some tubes on her head and shoulder and dark green eyes. Then she becomes the only cute Romulan again and re-establishes the Imperial Romulan State from the Typhon Pact and The Fall books on the foundations of the RSE and we can put Sela there where those two b*tches can fight.
Captain Joseph Riker, U.S.S. Odyssey==General V'Mar, U.S.S. Blackwater-A==Admiral Laura Holmes, U.S.S. Forward Unto Dawn Grand Master Thotok, son of Koloth, I.K.S. Sompek==Dahar Master Shanara, I.K.S. Balth'Quv Admiral R'Tath V'Tirex, R.R.W. Dhael Glohha'enh==Commander Ta'eth Korval, R.R.W Hachae ch'Rhian==Admiral Vranuk, R.R.W Delevhas
- I refuse to wear a uniform which makes me look like the fat girl on the wall at a high school dance
or,
- Makes me like look like an escapee from a Peter Pan ghetto fabulous festival.
- Also, I am too lazy to attend crowing and sneering classes.
- Sela. I saw her naked. Ran outta eye bleach. 'Nuff said.
- Tal Shiar cannot even blow up a planet correctly. Parts of them are still there.
Might wanna borrow the Death Star or watch the film and take good notes next time.
- Had Rinna Khev all that time and failed to program her to assassinate D'Tan.
Saved the best one for last. Why I'll never join the RSE? Easy. They hired Tovan Khev's girlfriend! :eek: :P
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
mikoto8472
Well, that is partly true (at least in some aspects). On the other hand of course no one could think the RSE would simply accept the breakaway of its worlds. And that is not only Sela - other people before her were also not very friendly towards such ambitions. Build a new life independent from your state is technical not without problem if there is no legal way of leaving the Empire (which is not, as far as I know).
And of course this split was often before anything about the Elachi become known - the details emerged only over time of the story arc while the Republic was already in making. And of course it is widely open if the TS is in any way still cooperating with the Elachi. As far as we know it was mainly Hakeevs thing, perhaps in some aspects Selas - so after Hakeevs death and Sela kidnapped there are good reasons to believe that the remaining parts of the RSE (or at least many of them) ended this cooperation. Since the fleet searched after Sela (according to Mivek) the RSE-leadership had no ideas were Sela was, and the kidnapping of your head of State is often seen as a not very friendly move, which surely harms your relations...;)
By the way, was in not so that the subcommander who speak with D'Tan had offered more than a cold tube etc.? But she was chased away by D'Tan...perhaps because he see it as you said - at the moment were he is no longer the one who could claim to feed them and defend them against the EVIL RSE, at this moment his influence would vanish...
protogoth
Fun fact about Law: In the philosophy and practice of Jurisprudence, there's this little principle known as "precedence." If the departure from the jurisdiction and control of the Star Empire by those who became the Republic, and their establishment of the Republic, be illegal under Romulan Law, then so was the departure of the ancestors from Vulcan during The Sundering, and every government they have founded since, including that of the Romulan Star Empire. While one might object with an ex post facto assertion as an attempted justification, such a law would nevertheless have very strong implications as I have stated, damning the very existence of the Star Empire in spirit, if not in explicit word.
This argument buys less than you think. At first we all know little about Vulcan law - only that is was a violant time with wars etc., so I think a binding law for ALL Vulcans which would deny the right to leave did simply not exist at this time. Of course Surak had not right for his way. You could also argue if not the Sundering was exactly directed AGAINST a similar move as D'Tan made it now - to change the behavior of the Romulan people as Surak want to do with the Vulcans (and D'Tan is influenced - if not more - by Suraks Thinking). Many Romulans will with full right claim that the Empire was the result and the legal heir of the Sundering, so a move away from that is a deep betrayal of the spirit of the Sundering. As is any move closer towards the Vulcans, anyway how far.
You are not familiar with the Romulans of TOS, are you?
As do you, I guess. I mean, striking without warning against poor-defended Fed-outposts, leaving little if any survivors...take part in a conspiracy which includes the killing of a leader of another state, blaming it to members of another fleet so that the blame is on them and preparing to kill a second head of state...yes, that is what NOBLE WARRIORS do...:D
Do not understanding me wrong, I have no problems with that actions from a Romulan point of view. But they show, that Romulan thinking of "noble" might not so noble in other interpretations of the word...;)
Sela herself states (in-game, in one of the voice-overs), that the Republic is reaching far into the past of Romulan history for inspiration. You may dislike what you regard as non-canon as much as you want; Cryptic has made use of significant bits of such for their own story. Thus, it is authoritative for STO.
As for Reunification, I have pointed out before, as have others, that Surakians were also among those who willingly departed from Vulcan in The Sundering. Thus, Surakian ideals are not "foreign," but have been part of Romulan and Reman culture since before the discovery of the Eisn system where ch'Rihan and ch'Havran were located.
The remainder of your post consists of the same old and tired attempts to make claims which have no basis in a vain effort to excuse the poor, mistreated Tal'Shiar and the milites gloriosi of the Star Empire. I do not care to engage in redundancy by showing, yet again, how they are illogical assertions.
It is also said about SELA herself that she reaches strongly towards the Romulan history for inspiration. Seems not so as if you could accept this fact...;)
And IF Surakians take part in the Sundering and IF they stay inside the Romulan society than they were a tiny, sometimes even hunted minority with little influence.
By the way I did not speak ONLY about D'Tan re-unification-obsession, but also his general policy. Not only made a alliance for limited time and limited goals (as the Romulans did in the past, but everytime only half-hearted it seems) but sending your men on the ships of longetime enemies, let them serve there, following orders from KDF/Star Fleet and fight foreign wars in which your people have little if any interest...well in which way THAT is not alien to all what we know about Romulans, than what?
Some may claim, that YOU of course show only the same old and tired and blind hate towards the Empire and all it has achieved and the same disrespect towards the sacrifices of the endless numbers of Romulans who had served the Empire well in armed forces, TS and in other way. I simply do not believe that is convincing from Romulans to Romulans, beside some very few brain-washed Empire-haters...
thunderfoot006
Well, but the Republic hired Tovan Kev himself - his girlfriend was at least so clever and split with him...
mikoto8472
Well, that is partly true (at least in some aspects). On the other hand of course no one could think the RSE would simply accept the breakaway of its worlds. And that is not only Sela - other people before her were also not very friendly towards such ambitions. Build a new life independent from your state is technical not without problem if there is no legal way of leaving the Empire (which is not, as far as I know).
And of course this split was often before anything about the Elachi become known - the details emerged only over time of the story arc while the Republic was already in making. And of course it is widely open if the TS is in any way still cooperating with the Elachi. As far as we know it was mainly Hakeevs thing, perhaps in some aspects Selas - so after Hakeevs death and Sela kidnapped there are good reasons to believe that the remaining parts of the RSE (or at least many of them) ended this cooperation. Since the fleet searched after Sela (according to Mivek) the RSE-leadership had no ideas were Sela was, and the kidnapping of your head of State is often seen as a not very friendly move, which surely harms your relations...;)
By the way, was in not so that the subcommander who speak with D'Tan had offered more than a cold tube etc.? But she was chased away by D'Tan...perhaps because he see it as you said - at the moment were he is no longer the one who could claim to feed them and defend them against the EVIL RSE, at this moment his influence would vanish...
You make some good points-the remnants of the RSE probably have ended their assosiation with the Iconians/Elachi/Solonae at this point given Sela's abduction and imprisonment. Its even possible that the RSE remnants have some stable worlds to house a population despite that its practically civil war as various people jockey for Sela's old throne. But could a former Republican Romulan seriously expect to just return to the RSE and get food, medicine and a place to live? I doubt it. Likely anyone seeking to rejoin the RSE would face a prison cell and half-rations whilst being tortured half to death for information. That's still not an appealing reason to rejoin.
D'Tan and the Republic still offer more than a cell and torture for any refugee or defector. People generally choose what's best for them personally. Who knows perhaps the taste of democracy and freedom whilst allied with the two most powerful factions in the alpha quadrant is appealing for the average Romulan refugee?
As for the woman that beams into D'Tan's office, she's Tal Shiar and we have no idea whose loyalty they hold. Do they still ally with the Elachi? Have they fallen back under the civil-war torn RSE's banner? Plus D'Tan didn't "chase her away." He simply declined her back-door offer. She was welcome to come back openly during office hours. If she was truly serious she could have sought his personal guarantee of protection during the negotiations. Instead she chose to present it as a back-door deal in the dark or nothing type deal.
Well, it depends very much who return to the RSE and under which circumstances. I do not think it would be easy in any case (by the way, I am also not sure that it would be easy for many RSE-people to join the Republic, what is with those who fight in the first line against the Republic, it allies and the Remans? Do you believe Obisek and his people say "all is forgiven and forgotten"? And I do not speak about such comic-like BAD MAN like Hakeev, but more about ordinary officers etc.), but it depends very much who has at the moment the control about this part of the RSE. By the way - did not at least a part of the TS/RSE MADE a offer to D'Tan? And a offer which sound not like torture until death etc.?
Who knows perhaps the taste of democracy and freedom whilst allied with the two most powerful factions in the alpha quadrant is appealing for the average Romulan refugee?
Well, in alliance with the Klingons people could surely not learn a lot about democracy and freedom (if you explain that not in the way "follow your orders or you might be stabbed do death by your commanding officer" ), I would say. And I am not sure if democracy and freedom really mean so much for many ordinary Romulans. That are things which are over centuries very little valued in their code of values (at least in the way D'Tan understand them). Honour (even honour by sacrifice your life, if necessary), Service for the Empire, Family, Tradition - I would say THAT were the core values which were central much more. And people are (in great parts) what they are teached to be. So I think a stable and united Empire will mean a lot for Romulans, while peace with Klingons and Feds, coming closer to the Vulcans (anyway how far) and making peace with the Remans is much less important, and in many cases even an insult (prejudice against old enemies like Klingons and Feds and "inferior" cousins like the Remans surely will live on for long time, and there are good reasons for hate towards many Klingons, Feds and Remans after all that years of war).
And I disagree about the TS-subcommander. It seems obvious for me that she indeed believed what she said, that open negotiations would never work because of all the bad blood (and I must say, I share her opinion, although we could not be sure to 100 percent - but Obisek and the Klingons and also some Feds have surely no interest in a lasting peace with the TS or at least the patience to forget their old hate). And D'Tans arguments were also foolish in my eyes, since even his beloved hero Spock did (as far as I know) EXACTLY the same type of secret diplomacy to create the circumstances of negotiations with the Klingon Empire. Or at least as far as I know he did not walk openly into the Great Hall on the Homeworld of the Klingons at visiting hour...
Only the ones who wish to be ruled by uncaring, selfish, and greedy autocrats, or wish to be the same. The Romulan Star Empire has been collapsing since the Dominion War. Le Ancien Regime and it's rotten edifice are crumbling under pressure from both within and without. One civil war after another, rampant warlordism and widespread popular discontent and unrest. Only a complete and utter miracle can save the Empire now. The Romulan Republic is the future of the Rihannsu and Havrannsu. If it isn't absorbed into the Republic, it will turn into a region populated by the fiefs of modern day feudal lords. Then it will end up getting absorbed anyway.
Rule number one of this forum: Speak for yourself. Don't ever presume to represent the entire playerbase no matter whose side you're on, the Republic's, the Empire's, or Cryptic's.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Thanks for that starswordc, sometimes when the people on this forum argue we forget that there are other people who are tired of hearing all this negativity and all the dealing in absolutes.
Comments
Perhaps you should read what you block quote and drop into this chat from a wiki instead of just assuming anything you post is defacto irrefutable proof of your particular brand of fanon.
The quote you posted straight out states that the Republic military elected him. How I'm aware that much of the Republic military is ex Star Empire Military, how does that change anything? A militarily appointed leader is still a militarily appointed leader, and not a democratically elected one.
The Brea system was a commando raid, not an invasion force. None of the RSE worlds we visit are even mentioned as joining the Republic, which is all it would take. Besides, if Brea/Rator etc fell, one would think that it'd be worth mentioning. The lack of this makes me think that the map isn't entirely accurate.
Except the Tal Shiar hasn't been active in the story for ages. Since their gambit to sabotage New Romulus to force D'Tan to their side failed miserably, they haven't really been on the stage. There isn't much of a conflict going on at all as far as us players know.
The perfect time for an official treaty to be signed, in a lull in the fighting.
I'm sure putting Sela to death or whatever will improve relations tenfold with the RSE though.
Something about the TNG episode where the Klingon and Cardassian scoff at the idea of being similar to the humans and Federation, where the Romulans accepting of the similarities
That one is so stupid, he lost a Rock/Paper/Scissors game to a Pony.
Silly fact, I make bad headcanon about those two.
As it was said by catoblepasbeta, even the source you quote show only that D'tan was "elected" by the people who take part in the violant uprising. There is at least for now no valide source that he ever had to face re-election when or if the Republic grow - not when the Remans joined, and not when/if other worlds joined.
And of course it would make no sense (beside the lunatic believe in a "new society" in a "city upon a hill") that if Rator III and other major worlds would have indeed fallen to the Republic that the capital would be the faked New Romulos and not the real one (or another much better developed world with much more people on its soil). Only a fool would stay on a rough and unsecure world like Second New Romulus which is so near to unsafe borders, when he had other options.
What is your problem? There were reforms mentioned, so why this crying? Or is it the deep, unfounded hate you have against any EVIL Empire, a fact you try to deny but are unable to do so. *g*
The Empire is a proud Romulan Past, I would say, Present and very likely Future. That mean not it may not have republican elements like the RSE before Shinzon. But surely not copy of a foreign ideology and foreign values which means nothing for true Romulans (beside - in they eyes of the majority - some brainwashed fools, who need some help very much).
And of course Sela has much more what it needs to be a leader. She has courage, cunning, could intrigate and manipulate. She could do what is necessary, and her actions were honoured even by her enemies. If you look how the game goes, than it needs much more that than the naive behavior of D'Tan, fanboy of Spock. A leader has not be to be a nice person, far from it. By the way I had said she had much more what it need to be a leader than D'Tan. Honestly - to be just better than HE, I mus say, THAT is no huge problem *g*
And I must again made clear that the so called democracy the "Republicans" are so much enthusiastic about is nothing more than a lie, since its greatest "defenders" have HUGE problems with any point of view beside their own. Anyone who disagree too much - he had not take actions or so, and could also have done a lot for the Republic - they wish to force to exile or worse. Yeah, a new Republican Society, free blablabla... *g*
As catoblepasbeta pointed it out very well, from a Romulan perspective it would be a good time for peace, a first step towards unity and reunification (the reunification which really matters for most Romulans, not this stupid Vulcan-thing). If they treat the Empress as leader of the RSE (D'Tan had not problems to play buddy with the Klingon on the Fed head of State or Obisek who together killed surely many, MANY Romulans) instead of creating some kind of "justice" (what would be of course only the revenge from Selas greatest enemies), than a lot could be achieved. If the Republicans were wise enough - what means if the few with brains and not the many with the passion and the loud voices decide.
Funny thing about countries' inaugural leaders: regardless of the form of government in use, they tend not to have been democratically elected by a majority of their constituents. That includes the United States: George Washington was effectively appointed the first POTUS, and ran unopposed for his second term. Simple fact is, somebody's gotta be in charge while you're setting things up.
That does not, however, automatically mean the legislative processes of the Republic are not democratic. Just because the head of state wants reunification does not make it official government policy. Barack Obama wants a raise to the minimum wage, but it has to pass Congress. (That's just an example: I'm not interested in starting a real-world political discussion.)
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
That's really disturbing.
As I noted previously, "I can already predict the reactions of most of the imperialists to this information with some degree of accuracy." The simple fact of the matter is that it would not matter what my source were; you two would still deny its authority and continue to spew the falsehoods with which you have attempted to cast doubt on the Republic for months. Even here, the attempt to paint the Republic as a "violent uprising" is transparent; the violence was the reaction of Sela and her cronies to those who would "dare" to follow the example of the ancestors and simply leave to go their own way. Defending oneself and one's fellows from violent aggression does not constitute a "violent uprising."
The Rator system is closer to unsafe borders than the Mol'Rihan system is.
On the contrary, I have never attempted to deny my hatred for "evil" (if you insist on continuing to parrot the dualistic views of the Sklavenmoral by utilizing such an emotively-charged and metaphysically unsatisfying term) empires. A time did exist, however, when the RSE was a society of honorable warriors; that time is sadly long gone, and what now calls itself "Rihannsu Stelam Shiar" (more properly "Shiar ih'Saeihr Rihan") is, for most people, a corrupt, decadent, repressive tyranny which is too far gone to bother with trying to reform.
Yes, a proud past did exist, but even it was never perfect; only brainwashed fools (or those who look back only through the rose-tinted glasses of nostalgia to an imaginary "Golden Age" which has never existed in any society) believe otherwise. The ideals of Republic are not "foreign," but universal, and "No True Scotsman" is still a fallacy.
Sela is narcissistic, incompetent, megalomaniacal, and Machiavellian, at the very least. These are not the virtues of leadership, but symptoms of psychosis and sociopathy.
Damaged Personality Disorder much? Stop playing the victim; the Star Empire is the abuser in this scenario.
And again with the "but you are all so MEAN to the poor, innocent, disadvantaged imperialists who have done nothing unethical" -- except attempt covert subversion of the Republic, overt aggression against the Republic (from its inception) and even loyal colony worlds of the Star Empire itself, kidnapping of Republic citizens (and even citizens of the Star Empire itself) who were turned over to an alien race to seed with their spores and were then eaten from the inside out, brainwashing of Republic military personnel, torture of everyone they could get their hands on (including loyal daughters and sons of the Star Empire itself), mass murder of citizens of the Star Empire itself (yes, Hobus again, and no, we will NOT forget this!), suppression of dissent, the enslavement of loyal citizens of the Star Empire ... A veritable litany of the worst acts and intentions known to history. But we are somehow unfair to them. Riiiiiight.
Oh, and uh, Passion is an intrinsic part of what it means to be Romulan. Or did you lose sight of that somewhere along the way in your tirade of propaganda against the Republic and gushing over the "glorious" crumbling ruin that was once worthy of some respect but is now only worthy of burial?
Yes, I'm aware. But there still have not been any elections yet, so he cannot have been elected by the populous. The true test of a Rebellion is when the first ruler steps down to allow the populous to choose their own leader. That hasn't happened yet, so the Republic hasn't passed the test yet. Washington passed that test, D'Tan has yet to.
The RR becomes a Republic/Democracy as soon as fair elections are held.
The fact that the Republic seems to be holding off on any sort of reconciliation with the RSE so far could indicate that they are concerned that the current ruling body might not remain so if they let any Romulan join the Republic and have a say in the Government.
We never see or hear about a legislative branch of the RR, so we don't know if/how much of a say they have in the government.
I can think of a couple alternate explanations for that, actually, neither of which require a reinterpretation of D'Tan's portrayal:
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Well, you have no argument that the Republic is more than a uprising (or at least the result of one). There was no legal ground on which D'Tans movement could build their breakaway, no authority which had legal power according to the law of the RSE had legalized this split. So of course it is not legal, and it was the right of the RSE to react - the WAY this was done may be another question. As far as I know (you may show me the § of the Romulan law to show me I am wrong) there was never a right to break away from the Empire and build your own state. And even less to do so by cooperation with the enemies of the Romulan people.
To seperate yourself illegaly and than "defend" yourself when the government react is a very tricky thing. And hardly to call simple defensive in nature.
And "honourable warriors" well, this may be a narrow-minded point of view. Surely nearly none Romulan will share it to see the past in THIS way. Since most Romulans have a past (or their families have one) with the RSE of the 24th century only some fools will see that as BAD. Remember just the Republican Operative during Delta Rising who honoured the Empire until the Hobus-incident (what mean, even after Shinzon, and of course before). I think she stands much more for a majority than this warrior-jumbo-mumbo which sounds more if a Klingon would say it.
So if you claim the values of the Republic are not foreign, than tell me, when was a democracy D'Tan stile (I mean, in real sources, in-canon, so to speak, not non-canon information) in Romulan history? The RSE ruled over centuries, so it is hard to believe that any such thing does effect much romulans of the 24/25th century...
And wasn't the Reunification-movement which members play a big role in the Republic not much influenced by foreigners? Even D'tan speaks about (and praise) Spock, Spock, and - surprise, surprise - Spock. He NOT speaks (as far as I remember) about some ancient or not-so ancient Romulan thinker who argued for democracy and/or reunification with the Vulcans (if there was many).
Well, Machiavellian is a virtue I think many Romulans will understand a leader needs, and she was so "incompetent" that even Star Fleet Officers honoured her takeover and calming of the Romulan Civil War and called her one of (if not THE best) leader Romulans had since destruction of New Romulus (and you could argue if that would not also include "since Shinzons coup"). Yeah, very incompetent. But facts, well, facts do not matter...:D
And it is funny how ANY real or so called crime is brought up against the RSE (even things which were done by some dozen people who were not much more than puppets in the hands of the Iconians) while any crime the Republic and her beloved Reman, Klingon and Federation friends have done are ignored. That the RSE acted hostile against the Republic is no crime, since the Republic never had a real legalization - she is nothing more (and maybe less) than other parties in the civil war the Romulans had seen since Shinzon. And as it was written her it seems that Sela was not aware of some actions of Hakeev, and of course had no hand in the Hobus-thing, and in other areas disagree with Hakeev. Same could be said, of course, for other actors of the RSE. The Iconian-thing was not 100 percent Hakeevs agenda, that is of course true, and it may be that Sela (other than she claim) did know at least something what was done with the prisoners. But of course Hakeev he played a big role, and many other surely did not know very much.
Of course passion is important. But at first it should not made people blind and stupid, and of course it must be passion for the right things (or I think at least many Romulans will see it so). Passion for the tradition and for the Empire is a noble thing, athing which goes back over generations and were core of Romulan society (and most families had several members who sacrificed their lives for that passion - and were killed by Klingons, Feds, others foes and may Remans). Passion to destroy the Empire or passion to follow foreigners is either directed wrong or even criminal in many eyes.
Ah, THAT old justification...
WE are the good one! We are for freedom, tralala - as long as it is OUR freedom and no one DARE to use this so called freedom to say another opinion. If he do that than he MUST be TRAITOR, a infiltrator, a servant of the BAD ENEMY.
This only shows that "freedom" D'Tan style mean only freedom to spit on what is holy for most Romulans, pray to what is foreign for most Romulans, and follow without questions those, which most Romulans would never trust as leaders, doing so with good cause. If that is the freedom for which the Republicans are fighting, well...
starswordc
But that shows also that he was, I think, either very stupid or lied. Her arguments why that "out in the open" would not work were 100 percent true, I would say (at least there are strong arguments for that). Either he did not see it (than he is a fool, not able to rule even a kindergarden) or he was not honest with his claim, since he did know that she never could work open, at least at that point. And what is the problem with secret negotiations? Spock himself does the same thing, more than once I guess...
Multiple worlds had Romulans on it who were independant-bothering nobody as they built new lives for themselves and conceivably wouldn't have resisted if Sela had stormed in and taken over by installing a military presence there. But an element of the Star Empire itself-the Tal Shiar swooped down on those harmless worlds and killed or abducted most of the population to feed to the Elachi.
For many Republicans it was a choice between joining up with D'Tan who offered food, medicine, shelter and a degree of safety... Or being rounded up and turned into Elachi food.
And this is still the choice they have. True most Republicans probably don't care about reunification or about how the society is run. But D'Tan is holding out food and a blanket. The Tal Shiar offer a cold tube and Elachi-spore.
As long as the RSE doesn't offer something better than the Republic, it won't hold. Tradition and culture don't mean much when you're hungry.
Fun fact about Law: In the philosophy and practice of Jurisprudence, there's this little principle known as "precedence." If the departure from the jurisdiction and control of the Star Empire by those who became the Republic, and their establishment of the Republic, be illegal under Romulan Law, then so was the departure of the ancestors from Vulcan during The Sundering, and every government they have founded since, including that of the Romulan Star Empire. While one might object with an ex post facto assertion as an attempted justification, such a law would nevertheless have very strong implications as I have stated, damning the very existence of the Star Empire in spirit, if not in explicit word.
You are not familiar with the Romulans of TOS, are you?
Sela herself states (in-game, in one of the voice-overs), that the Republic is reaching far into the past of Romulan history for inspiration. You may dislike what you regard as non-canon as much as you want; Cryptic has made use of significant bits of such for their own story. Thus, it is authoritative for STO.
As for Reunification, I have pointed out before, as have others, that Surakians were also among those who willingly departed from Vulcan in The Sundering. Thus, Surakian ideals are not "foreign," but have been part of Romulan and Reman culture since before the discovery of the Eisn system where ch'Rihan and ch'Havran were located.
The remainder of your post consists of the same old and tired attempts to make claims which have no basis in a vain effort to excuse the poor, mistreated Tal'Shiar and the milites gloriosi of the Star Empire. I do not care to engage in redundancy by showing, yet again, how they are illogical assertions.
and we are winning.
That one is so stupid, he lost a Rock/Paper/Scissors game to a Pony.
only because players arent given the opportunity to do anything BUT help the republic :P
Grand Master Thotok, son of Koloth, I.K.S. Sompek==Dahar Master Shanara, I.K.S. Balth'Quv
Admiral R'Tath V'Tirex, R.R.W. Dhael Glohha'enh==Commander Ta'eth Korval, R.R.W Hachae ch'Rhian==Admiral Vranuk, R.R.W Delevhas
Grand Master Thotok, son of Koloth, I.K.S. Sompek==Dahar Master Shanara, I.K.S. Balth'Quv
Admiral R'Tath V'Tirex, R.R.W. Dhael Glohha'enh==Commander Ta'eth Korval, R.R.W Hachae ch'Rhian==Admiral Vranuk, R.R.W Delevhas
- I refuse to wear a uniform which makes me look like the fat girl on the wall at a high school dance
or,
- Makes me like look like an escapee from a Peter Pan ghetto fabulous festival.
- Also, I am too lazy to attend crowing and sneering classes.
- Sela. I saw her naked. Ran outta eye bleach. 'Nuff said.
- Tal Shiar cannot even blow up a planet correctly. Parts of them are still there.
Might wanna borrow the Death Star or watch the film and take good notes next time.
- Had Rinna Khev all that time and failed to program her to assassinate D'Tan.
Saved the best one for last. Why I'll never join the RSE? Easy. They hired Tovan Khev's girlfriend! :eek: :P
fixed it for ya
Well, that is partly true (at least in some aspects). On the other hand of course no one could think the RSE would simply accept the breakaway of its worlds. And that is not only Sela - other people before her were also not very friendly towards such ambitions. Build a new life independent from your state is technical not without problem if there is no legal way of leaving the Empire (which is not, as far as I know).
And of course this split was often before anything about the Elachi become known - the details emerged only over time of the story arc while the Republic was already in making. And of course it is widely open if the TS is in any way still cooperating with the Elachi. As far as we know it was mainly Hakeevs thing, perhaps in some aspects Selas - so after Hakeevs death and Sela kidnapped there are good reasons to believe that the remaining parts of the RSE (or at least many of them) ended this cooperation. Since the fleet searched after Sela (according to Mivek) the RSE-leadership had no ideas were Sela was, and the kidnapping of your head of State is often seen as a not very friendly move, which surely harms your relations...;)
By the way, was in not so that the subcommander who speak with D'Tan had offered more than a cold tube etc.? But she was chased away by D'Tan...perhaps because he see it as you said - at the moment were he is no longer the one who could claim to feed them and defend them against the EVIL RSE, at this moment his influence would vanish...
protogoth
This argument buys less than you think. At first we all know little about Vulcan law - only that is was a violant time with wars etc., so I think a binding law for ALL Vulcans which would deny the right to leave did simply not exist at this time. Of course Surak had not right for his way. You could also argue if not the Sundering was exactly directed AGAINST a similar move as D'Tan made it now - to change the behavior of the Romulan people as Surak want to do with the Vulcans (and D'Tan is influenced - if not more - by Suraks Thinking). Many Romulans will with full right claim that the Empire was the result and the legal heir of the Sundering, so a move away from that is a deep betrayal of the spirit of the Sundering. As is any move closer towards the Vulcans, anyway how far.
As do you, I guess. I mean, striking without warning against poor-defended Fed-outposts, leaving little if any survivors...take part in a conspiracy which includes the killing of a leader of another state, blaming it to members of another fleet so that the blame is on them and preparing to kill a second head of state...yes, that is what NOBLE WARRIORS do...:D
Do not understanding me wrong, I have no problems with that actions from a Romulan point of view. But they show, that Romulan thinking of "noble" might not so noble in other interpretations of the word...;)
It is also said about SELA herself that she reaches strongly towards the Romulan history for inspiration. Seems not so as if you could accept this fact...;)
And IF Surakians take part in the Sundering and IF they stay inside the Romulan society than they were a tiny, sometimes even hunted minority with little influence.
By the way I did not speak ONLY about D'Tan re-unification-obsession, but also his general policy. Not only made a alliance for limited time and limited goals (as the Romulans did in the past, but everytime only half-hearted it seems) but sending your men on the ships of longetime enemies, let them serve there, following orders from KDF/Star Fleet and fight foreign wars in which your people have little if any interest...well in which way THAT is not alien to all what we know about Romulans, than what?
Some may claim, that YOU of course show only the same old and tired and blind hate towards the Empire and all it has achieved and the same disrespect towards the sacrifices of the endless numbers of Romulans who had served the Empire well in armed forces, TS and in other way. I simply do not believe that is convincing from Romulans to Romulans, beside some very few brain-washed Empire-haters...
thunderfoot006
Well, but the Republic hired Tovan Kev himself - his girlfriend was at least so clever and split with him...
You make some good points-the remnants of the RSE probably have ended their assosiation with the Iconians/Elachi/Solonae at this point given Sela's abduction and imprisonment. Its even possible that the RSE remnants have some stable worlds to house a population despite that its practically civil war as various people jockey for Sela's old throne. But could a former Republican Romulan seriously expect to just return to the RSE and get food, medicine and a place to live? I doubt it. Likely anyone seeking to rejoin the RSE would face a prison cell and half-rations whilst being tortured half to death for information. That's still not an appealing reason to rejoin.
D'Tan and the Republic still offer more than a cell and torture for any refugee or defector. People generally choose what's best for them personally. Who knows perhaps the taste of democracy and freedom whilst allied with the two most powerful factions in the alpha quadrant is appealing for the average Romulan refugee?
As for the woman that beams into D'Tan's office, she's Tal Shiar and we have no idea whose loyalty they hold. Do they still ally with the Elachi? Have they fallen back under the civil-war torn RSE's banner? Plus D'Tan didn't "chase her away." He simply declined her back-door offer. She was welcome to come back openly during office hours. If she was truly serious she could have sought his personal guarantee of protection during the negotiations. Instead she chose to present it as a back-door deal in the dark or nothing type deal.
Well, in alliance with the Klingons people could surely not learn a lot about democracy and freedom (if you explain that not in the way "follow your orders or you might be stabbed do death by your commanding officer"
And I disagree about the TS-subcommander. It seems obvious for me that she indeed believed what she said, that open negotiations would never work because of all the bad blood (and I must say, I share her opinion, although we could not be sure to 100 percent - but Obisek and the Klingons and also some Feds have surely no interest in a lasting peace with the TS or at least the patience to forget their old hate). And D'Tans arguments were also foolish in my eyes, since even his beloved hero Spock did (as far as I know) EXACTLY the same type of secret diplomacy to create the circumstances of negotiations with the Klingon Empire. Or at least as far as I know he did not walk openly into the Great Hall on the Homeworld of the Klingons at visiting hour...
You can't use a Jade Falcon avatar in here!
Only the ones who wish to be ruled by uncaring, selfish, and greedy autocrats, or wish to be the same. The Romulan Star Empire has been collapsing since the Dominion War. Le Ancien Regime and it's rotten edifice are crumbling under pressure from both within and without. One civil war after another, rampant warlordism and widespread popular discontent and unrest. Only a complete and utter miracle can save the Empire now. The Romulan Republic is the future of the Rihannsu and Havrannsu. If it isn't absorbed into the Republic, it will turn into a region populated by the fiefs of modern day feudal lords. Then it will end up getting absorbed anyway.
No, we wouldn't. How is it possible that you guys keep repeating this lie? You're not even a majority, let alone a unanimity.
Rule number one of this forum: Speak for yourself. Don't ever presume to represent the entire playerbase no matter whose side you're on, the Republic's, the Empire's, or Cryptic's.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
You do not now nor in any foreseeable future speak for me.
Whyever not? Adds some much needed posh to the place.
Which, BTW is simply crawling with... savrashi freebirths! :P