I don't particularly like the upgrading system as it is now, it's expensive and it's too tempting for some people who can't afford it to spend more than they have. What you need to remember is that you can do all the content in the game very easily with Mk XII gear, and all I would ever do is upgrade to Mk XIV, if it goes Ultra or Epic on the way great, if not then it doesn't really matter.
This exactly.
" Experience is a hard mistress, she gives the tests first, and the lessons after... "
So those of us who put the time, effort, money and resources into grinding out Rep gear and Fleet holdings to obtain gear for our multiple characters had everything just handed to us?
Did I mention anyone that "put the time, effort, money and resources into grinding out Rep gear and Fleet holdings to obtain gear for our multiple characters"? I could have sworn that I didn't.
I think I found a trick to that. Make a new character, transfer your upgrade kits to that character, then upgrade. Since they're below level 10, the items won't outlevel them, thus making it easier to get a gold. All you'll need to worry about is transferring them back to your main after they're gold so you can throw tech points at them.
And this method was suggested by a dev, so it's probably legit.
Now, that IS actually a golden tip! Thank you!
Apologies. Actually, that's kinda the only part I read. ;_;
After reading this thread I came to one conclusion:
Please stop using "you don't have to it" as a counter-argument unless the initial complaint was "I have to do it". Please keep the mother of all straw-mans away. Thank you. :P
Interesting solution, but even when a Dev said it was OK, I wouldn't do it. I just don't trust their flip flopping.
Looking at using grinding DOFF's alts for Dilithuim myself.
Eh, it was just a suggestion. It may not even be the cheapest way to get Mk XIV golds, I haven't tried it myself. But it definitely cuts your odds of making it to gold up.
I have yet to hear a reasonable argument from anyone here that leads me to believe that it's the game that's dying, rather than a handful of forum-goers that are just sad that the game isn't handing everything to them.
And this is coming from someone with 45 characters. I have a hell of a lot on my shoulders, and I sure as hell ain't complaining about it. But that's just me.
Impressive array of characters. The reasonable argument you are looking for is the numbers consistently in the Queue's being below half the avg it was before DR and before the 2x XP event prior to DR.
The other parts of the same argument are literally scanning the amount of instances available and how many people are in them. There's less than 50% of the instances during the normal times I play in most areas. Some may have migrated from ESD to the Jenolan Sphere, but even then I only see 2 different instances with lots of people in them, the rest have 3-5 people totalling about 5 instances.
Going on how many people are in your personal instance is irrelevant, but when you see number of instances halved or less with the numbers in them lower than you've seen in recent memory (going back to April for me) then it starts to add up. It's not in the best interest of Cryptic to say, well we don't have the avg numbers we had before DR, they'll put spin on other nebulous stats like number of missions run etc...
The fleet I'm in recruited a ton of people before DR. We compeleted our Tier 5 Fleet Starbase around release of DR. Prior to release there was around 10-20 people on avg on at the same time as me and I'm on at the USA off time for the most part. Now I barely see 3-5 people on. Very few fleets haven't had a hit in numbers of players active at any given time.
When you look at each piece of data individually it's easy to dismiss. Collectively you can't ignore there is something majorly wrong.
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
Impressive array of characters. The reasonable argument you are looking for is the numbers consistently in the Queue's being below half the avg it was before DR and before the 2x XP event prior to DR.
The other parts of the same argument are literally scanning the amount of instances available and how many people are in them. There's less than 50% of the instances during the normal times I play in most areas. Some may have migrated from ESD to the Jenolan Sphere, but even then I only see 2 different instances with lots of people in them, the rest have 3-5 people totalling about 5 instances.
Going on how many people are in your personal instance is irrelevant, but when you see number of instances halved or less with the numbers in them lower than you've seen in recent memory (going back to April for me) then it starts to add up. It's not in the best interest of Cryptic to say, well we don't have the avg numbers we had before DR, they'll put spin on other nebulous stats like number of missions run etc...
The fleet I'm in recruited a ton of people before DR. We compeleted our Tier 5 Fleet Starbase around release of DR. Prior to release there was around 10-20 people on avg on at the same time as me and I'm on at the USA off time for the most part. Now I barely see 3-5 people on. Very few fleets haven't had a hit in numbers of players active at any given time.
When you look at each piece of data individually it's easy to dismiss. Collectively you can't ignore there is something majorly wrong.
I'm not saying the game isn't dying. I am however saying that there isn't enough evidence to convince me that is is. Is there people leaving? Yes, this is obvious to me as well. Are queues and social instances less populated? Again, it seems so. But DR introduced a lot of story, and even more patrol system grinding. It's entirely reasonable to consider that a good portion of players are running patrols or playing DQ episodes. Do I think that's where all the players went? No. But I wouldn't doubt it.
My point is, I'm not convinced that the game is dying. And before you play the 'you're biased toward Cryptic' card(not saying you WILL, but just to cover all bases here), I'm not entirely convinced of Geko's claim that there's MORE players either.
Whoever said you don't need the Upgraded gear is drinking the cool-aid, and has not even tried to run the new STF's. its a 50/50 shot at best with a mediocre team on any of the new ques. The New upgrade system is a sham at best. Its outright greed on PWE part and it they want to keep there player base it needs to stop. plain and simple.
So far as I am concerned, if you hand over X amount of either resources or cash to upgrade an item that upgrade should happen. That's what was paid for.
Frankly, to let us sink heaven knows how many upgrade tokens into a CHANCE of getting that Epic upgrade is insutling. They are called UPGRADE TOKENS, not upgrade CHANCE tokens. It, basically, amounts to false advertising - those tokens do NOT do what it says 'on the tin'. I mean for gods sake - this is like opening a can of beans, that was labelled as nothing other than a can of beans, and finding a note saying 'better luck next time' inside it!
The 'game of chance' TRIBBLE should be left for lock boxes.
I'm pretty sure "upgrade" is referring to mark number, rather than item quality.
Hmm that would be good for some Phased Biomatter Beams...
TBH that is actually something I would call exploiting the system, though that's not a punishable exploit as it's the system they have designed. Something is poorly designed if people have to use such an exploit to make the Upgrade and R&D systems viable, then whoever designed them F***** UP big time. Sorry Jessie Heinig (apologies if misspelt) but it's true.
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
After reading this thread I came to one conclusion:
Please stop using "you don't have to it" as a counter-argument unless the initial complaint was "I have to do it". Please keep the mother of all straw-mans away. Thank you. :P
Logic, reason and mutual understanding on the STO forum instead of "fanboy" vs. "hater" bickering, arguments and strawmen?
Come on Q Jr., I'm sure your father taught you better than to expect that.
They're not, or at least SHOULDN'T be, mutually exclusive. The increase in item quality improves said item's stats etc - the end product is superior to what it was beforehand; it is, in my opinion, still an upgrade.
Nah, they shouldn't be. But games have a tendency to label features after something IRL, but give them special rules. This leads to gameplay-story segregation. Another example in STO is handheld, or "Ground" weapons. You don't 'put them in your hand' as it were in game terms, you 'equip' it.
The same logic is why some words that aren't normally proper nouns are in games, such as "Raptor" or "Destroyer" in STO, as those are names of ship types, rather than descriptive terms.
Yes it's BS, and honestly I don't agree with the way that's handled in most games, but that's the logic as I understand it. :<
They're not, or at least SHOULDN'T be, mutually exclusive. The increase in item quality improves said item's stats etc - the end product is superior to what it was beforehand; it is, in my opinion, still an upgrade.
Besides which, is it possible to increase the item quality without using upgrade tokens?
You're absolutely right. A 'Quality Improvement' is every bit as much an upgrade as an increase in Mk. If not, I'd like my Upgrade Tech, and Dilithium, and EC back, please! :P
In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that when people are talking about the astronomical cost of upgrading, they're almost exclusively talking about the Quality Improvement cost.
Uhm... I saw some gold consoles I wanted so I bought them off of the exchange. Didn't cost me any upgrades or outrageous dil prices, and I didn't have to gamble.
Even the Tech point cost is ridiculous. Making a single Superior or Experimental Token is very expensive in either time or EC off the exchange. Then there's the cost of applying a token. It wouldn't be so bad if the dil cost happened only at upgrade time, but it happens on token application which makes everything cost lots more.
Then there's the quality gamble. That's gotta be close to the lock box for percentages (in fact it is going by numbers given out from testing). So the message is gamble, then gamble some more then gamble some more while trying to grind Dil out of your TRIBBLE...
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
Fair comment and youre right, I guess.
I guess that, if I am honest, I just hate the fact that it is possible to spend lots of resources, and money, on something that only offers a chance to upgrade an item to Epic.
Then don't?
Do what meimeitoo is gonna do and just buy your gear outright from the exchange. Or better yet, don't worry so much on getting to the highest place you can go in the game. If you're not PvPing, it's certainly not needed. I'm not telling you not to if you really really want to, that is your choice after all. But I don't think it's worth it.
Uhm... I saw some gold consoles I wanted so I bought them off of the exchange. Didn't cost me any upgrades or outrageous dil prices, and I didn't have to gamble.
Correct, but some of the stuff there really costs!
So its either 50 mil for a disruptor DHC mk7 with crit D times 4 vs. hundreds (or thousands?) attempts to craft and upgrade em with the mods you want by yourself.
You can either play Ferengi or Pakled in this game.
Gosh, there I am wanting to be a top ace pilot.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Without knowing the exact odds you face, I find it difficult to ascertain the exact level of sympathy you deserve.
However, if you've been diligently farming the mats to make this attempt over the month or three that the system has been in existence, then understand that the investment you made should have placed you right about exactly where Cryptic wants you to be in regards to upgrading that particular piece of gear - do remember it was clearly advertised that said upgrade system would require tremendous investments of time and diligently farmed resources...
And sorry that the RNG system pined for since the removal of "fat lootz after one STF" failed you and did not give you said fat lootz.
Dear Cryptic:
Do realize that your attempt to give the whales an exclusive place to use their duly paid for sets of full Gold - aka Battle of Korfez - has created a "false" set of "unreasonable expectations" within the community. Due to the longstanding "tradition" of every piece of content being playable after a reasonable grind, or possession of appropriate skill (as demonstrated by NWS), the fact that Korfez requires full sets of Mk XIV gold in addition to the requisite skills has generated a conundrum.
The playerbase at large is anticipating / expecting "traditionally reasonable" grind to reach the advertised bar of entry, which has historically been 3-6 months of work, 6 for a completely F2P, 3 for the lucky and/or player willing to drop a micro-transaction or two to accelerate the process. Being that there's what, 20-22 components per ship (6-8 weapons, 4 "gear" slots, 10 or 11 consoles), 6 months of popping a gold a week would just about fill the 6 month requirement. The fact that you planned for the upgrade system to require a year+ of grinding to meet the bar means that, perhaps, you should have withheld the content for most of said year so that many more people can have achieved the requisite entry bar.
This can be fixed in one of two ways, quickly. Method one would be to create a "normal" and/or "advanced" version of Korfez that can be played by the majority of the playerbase so that there's no "exclusive to whales content".
Method two is to re-adjust the crafting system so that ~25 hours of farming advanced = Mk XII purple -> Mk XIV gold. Since you desire 7x3=21 to 7x4=28 hours of play a week from each player, this would be a "reasonable" week's worth of work to get one gold, and 20-22 weeks (5 to 6 months) to kit out one ship. Do note, also, that this system would also be considered "alt friendly" in that the timeframes and/or microtransaction amounts to kit out multiple players / ships can be handled by the average player.
Thank you for your consideration...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
heh what is that they say about doing the same thing over and over expecting different results?
Its not clearly stated but the interface should be enough to figure it out. You have progress bar that says "chance to upgrade quality" or something and its probably less than a 10% chance on a XIV purple that has just reached XIV. It also clearly says "possible outcome" or words to that effect in the "result" panel. Between the two, it should be obvious that it is a gamble. If that is not enough to figure it out, cranking it up so you can mash the upgrade button and getting the same item back out as went in should have been an indication as well -- you would observe the chance to upgrade bar change from 2% to 3% or whatever, and realize that this system stinks and stop pouring your dil into the black hole.
Upgrading XIVs is a losing game that is about like opening boxes for ships. If you want gold, upgrade mark IIs and stop after a couple of thousand dil if it has not gone the way you wanted.
Upgrading to XIV really isn't bad...it's the rarity game that is...and the rarity game does not have to be played at all. If you feel you need gold everything to be back to where you were pre DR...I'm farily certain the issue might be partially you.
It's obvious that the rarity game is meant to be played, otherwise why would they have created it in the first place ? People are complaining about the cost, not that they "have to do it".
So argue about the cost, show how it's not too high, give advice about doing it smart. Stop being an TRIBBLE* by suggesting that no one has to do it....
Comments
This exactly.
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Now, that IS actually a golden tip!
Thank you for that too.
Please stop using "you don't have to it" as a counter-argument unless the initial complaint was "I have to do it". Please keep the mother of all straw-mans away. Thank you. :P
Eh, it was just a suggestion. It may not even be the cheapest way to get Mk XIV golds, I haven't tried it myself. But it definitely cuts your odds of making it to gold up.
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Not to mention this tactic doesn't work for a lot of gear, rep/fleet for example.
Impressive array of characters. The reasonable argument you are looking for is the numbers consistently in the Queue's being below half the avg it was before DR and before the 2x XP event prior to DR.
The other parts of the same argument are literally scanning the amount of instances available and how many people are in them. There's less than 50% of the instances during the normal times I play in most areas. Some may have migrated from ESD to the Jenolan Sphere, but even then I only see 2 different instances with lots of people in them, the rest have 3-5 people totalling about 5 instances.
Going on how many people are in your personal instance is irrelevant, but when you see number of instances halved or less with the numbers in them lower than you've seen in recent memory (going back to April for me) then it starts to add up. It's not in the best interest of Cryptic to say, well we don't have the avg numbers we had before DR, they'll put spin on other nebulous stats like number of missions run etc...
The fleet I'm in recruited a ton of people before DR. We compeleted our Tier 5 Fleet Starbase around release of DR. Prior to release there was around 10-20 people on avg on at the same time as me and I'm on at the USA off time for the most part. Now I barely see 3-5 people on. Very few fleets haven't had a hit in numbers of players active at any given time.
When you look at each piece of data individually it's easy to dismiss. Collectively you can't ignore there is something majorly wrong.
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
My point is, I'm not convinced that the game is dying. And before you play the 'you're biased toward Cryptic' card(not saying you WILL, but just to cover all bases here), I'm not entirely convinced of Geko's claim that there's MORE players either.
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Why not?! This is no different from me using my lv 4 alt to open, say, Protonic weaponry boxes, so I receive em at low Mk.
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TBH that is actually something I would call exploiting the system, though that's not a punishable exploit as it's the system they have designed. Something is poorly designed if people have to use such an exploit to make the Upgrade and R&D systems viable, then whoever designed them F***** UP big time. Sorry Jessie Heinig (apologies if misspelt) but it's true.
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
Logic, reason and mutual understanding on the STO forum instead of "fanboy" vs. "hater" bickering, arguments and strawmen?
Come on Q Jr., I'm sure your father taught you better than to expect that.
Either way, my apologies, OP.
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The same logic is why some words that aren't normally proper nouns are in games, such as "Raptor" or "Destroyer" in STO, as those are names of ship types, rather than descriptive terms.
Yes it's BS, and honestly I don't agree with the way that's handled in most games, but that's the logic as I understand it. :<
Probably the only way is an outright replacement for an item of higher quality.
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You're absolutely right.
In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that when people are talking about the astronomical cost of upgrading, they're almost exclusively talking about the Quality Improvement cost.
^^ I'm pretty much reverting to this method too.
Then there's the quality gamble. That's gotta be close to the lock box for percentages (in fact it is going by numbers given out from testing). So the message is gamble, then gamble some more then gamble some more while trying to grind Dil out of your TRIBBLE...
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
Do what meimeitoo is gonna do and just buy your gear outright from the exchange. Or better yet, don't worry so much on getting to the highest place you can go in the game. If you're not PvPing, it's certainly not needed. I'm not telling you not to if you really really want to, that is your choice after all. But I don't think it's worth it.
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Correct, but some of the stuff there really costs!
So its either 50 mil for a disruptor DHC mk7 with crit D times 4 vs. hundreds (or thousands?) attempts to craft and upgrade em with the mods you want by yourself.
You can either play Ferengi or Pakled in this game.
Gosh, there I am wanting to be a top ace pilot.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Without knowing the exact odds you face, I find it difficult to ascertain the exact level of sympathy you deserve.
However, if you've been diligently farming the mats to make this attempt over the month or three that the system has been in existence, then understand that the investment you made should have placed you right about exactly where Cryptic wants you to be in regards to upgrading that particular piece of gear - do remember it was clearly advertised that said upgrade system would require tremendous investments of time and diligently farmed resources...
And sorry that the RNG system pined for since the removal of "fat lootz after one STF" failed you and did not give you said fat lootz.
Dear Cryptic:
Do realize that your attempt to give the whales an exclusive place to use their duly paid for sets of full Gold - aka Battle of Korfez - has created a "false" set of "unreasonable expectations" within the community. Due to the longstanding "tradition" of every piece of content being playable after a reasonable grind, or possession of appropriate skill (as demonstrated by NWS), the fact that Korfez requires full sets of Mk XIV gold in addition to the requisite skills has generated a conundrum.
The playerbase at large is anticipating / expecting "traditionally reasonable" grind to reach the advertised bar of entry, which has historically been 3-6 months of work, 6 for a completely F2P, 3 for the lucky and/or player willing to drop a micro-transaction or two to accelerate the process. Being that there's what, 20-22 components per ship (6-8 weapons, 4 "gear" slots, 10 or 11 consoles), 6 months of popping a gold a week would just about fill the 6 month requirement. The fact that you planned for the upgrade system to require a year+ of grinding to meet the bar means that, perhaps, you should have withheld the content for most of said year so that many more people can have achieved the requisite entry bar.
This can be fixed in one of two ways, quickly. Method one would be to create a "normal" and/or "advanced" version of Korfez that can be played by the majority of the playerbase so that there's no "exclusive to whales content".
Method two is to re-adjust the crafting system so that ~25 hours of farming advanced = Mk XII purple -> Mk XIV gold. Since you desire 7x3=21 to 7x4=28 hours of play a week from each player, this would be a "reasonable" week's worth of work to get one gold, and 20-22 weeks (5 to 6 months) to kit out one ship. Do note, also, that this system would also be considered "alt friendly" in that the timeframes and/or microtransaction amounts to kit out multiple players / ships can be handled by the average player.
Thank you for your consideration...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Its not clearly stated but the interface should be enough to figure it out. You have progress bar that says "chance to upgrade quality" or something and its probably less than a 10% chance on a XIV purple that has just reached XIV. It also clearly says "possible outcome" or words to that effect in the "result" panel. Between the two, it should be obvious that it is a gamble. If that is not enough to figure it out, cranking it up so you can mash the upgrade button and getting the same item back out as went in should have been an indication as well -- you would observe the chance to upgrade bar change from 2% to 3% or whatever, and realize that this system stinks and stop pouring your dil into the black hole.
Upgrading XIVs is a losing game that is about like opening boxes for ships. If you want gold, upgrade mark IIs and stop after a couple of thousand dil if it has not gone the way you wanted.
It's obvious that the rarity game is meant to be played, otherwise why would they have created it in the first place ? People are complaining about the cost, not that they "have to do it".
So argue about the cost, show how it's not too high, give advice about doing it smart. Stop being an TRIBBLE* by suggesting that no one has to do it....
*Not specifically you, but more in general.