The item he was trying upgrade was a tac. Phaser relay, what the rarity was my friend said he's not sure (speaking with him on TS) and after 18 failed stf's today he said he's probably going back for a while. He's an efficient German player, really not one to brag or embellish though.
If that's true, there's probably a misunderstanding between everyone. If you could gather more info, I would appreciate it.
Your pun hits the mark, but there are people who sell their online identity all the time..
I'd never do it..
I just hope they change the system to: what you see is what you get. The game can be very difficult at the advanced level missions (especially with say 4 pugs). I don't want top-end gear for bragging rights, or PvP (which I never do in this game). I want good gear to be able survive & have a successful mission. I have played this game a long time. I've liked what they have done with this game with one glaring exception. If PW does what they should I'd come back in a heartbeat, if not I'd miss it.
I'm running Mk XII purple gear and see no need to go beyond that.
The stat gain is simply not worth the expense of the crafting system.
This is why I wonder why people NEED to craft.
People should be complaining about the things that actually effect gameplay, like leveling speed, dead queues, unfun mob mechanics, etc.
I have absolutely no problem with Cryptic making the RnD system as a whole, since it is a major factor in bringing them revenue. Sure it needs some tweaks to "guarantee" an upgrade after so many attempts. But on the whole, the RnD system can be completely ignored and isn't necessary to ingame enjoyment.
However, lack of people in the queues, lack of rewards in the queues, excessive grinding of exp;
These are all necessary parts of the game to have an enjoyable experience. I'd rather they fix the necessary parts of the game first.
RnD and upgrades exist in a vacuum, they are not needed IMO. Cryptic needs to adjust it so it is a fair revenue stream, but it should only ever be treated as such.
You don't upgrade an item because you need to, you do it to support Cryptic, and in return Cryptic gives you shiny stats; much like the system of purchases of C-Store and lockbox ships functions. This is Pay-to-Win in its ideal model.
However with Delta Rising, Cryptic made the grinding painful enough to start to make people feel that RnD and upgrades are indeed necessary to enjoy the game to its fullest, and IMO those are predatory tactics.
So to be clear OP, you don't ever need to do RnD, so don't let the devs dictate to you that you need it just because of their primitive Pavlovian psychology traps they added with DR. The first step to playing this game without the need to spend money is to realize that they are employing predatory psychological tactics to force money out of you.
Convert your rage into peaceful protest, and maybe we can see a change.
No it isn't. The warning is clearly posted, and you chose to gamble... multiple times.
How about a better example..
If you do a duty-officer mission when it completes you know exactly how it came out
critical success
success
or failure
with so much literally at stake your aren't told anything in the upgrade system about the mission outcome. Upgrades at the lower levels are automatic at the top tier the rules change
I never ignored it.. I made tickets (which were ignored by STO - hence no feedback) & asked around my fleet and others. I asked a GM. No one knew, not many have gotten as far as I have in the upgrade system. That is why I'm here - to warn others & hopefully people won't all be like sheep & complain if they choose or possibly take there business elsewhere. 'Beeeeh - you don't need it', 'Beeeeh - it was your own fault.. I know your kind..:rolleyes:
How about a better example..
If you do a duty-officer mission when it completes you know exactly how it came out
critical success
success
or failure
with so much literally at stake your aren't told anything in the upgrade system about the mission outcome. Upgrades at the lower levels are automatic at the top tier the rules change
I never ignored it.. I made tickets & asked around my fleet and others. I asked a GM. No one knew, not many have gotten as far as I have in the upgrade system. That is why I'm here - to warn others & hopefully people won't all be like sheep & complain if they choose or possibly take there business elsewhere. 'Beeeeh - you don't need it', 'Beeeeh - it was your own fault.. I know your kind..:rolleyes:
But you don't need it.
I definitely agree the gambling aspect has to go; it's just supremely unfair to do it that way.
That 400k refined dilithium was spread over several panels (he's German - lost in translation) his highest rarity on his tac. panels is now 5%. He said it was 140k refined dilithium on the failed attempt to 'epic' - so my bad, the devil is in the details.
And whomever felt that introducing a lottery system to upgrade gear is a complete and utter idiot. This is pure greed and contempt for the customer. The entirety of the game is simply not worth the cost of upgrading a single item as far as I'm concerned.
and that is a perfectly valid opinion
my issue is that it was clearly stated as such and the OP misunderstood, wasted dil, and blamed the system for his own misunderstanding
its says "chance of quality improvement" when you try to upgrade a mk14 item
so to clarify, you misunderstood how the upgrade system works and your blaming the game
cautionary tale indeed
fair enough, bye bye
^^ Yes, yes, the usual grandstanding.
Funny thing is, though (or maybe not so funny), is that it doesnt really matter that the OP misunderstood: the insane upgrade costs remain the same. 318k per round for a single Shield, just to get it to Ultra Rare? Fu very much indeed!
And whomever felt that introducing a lottery system to upgrade gear is a complete and utter idiot. This is pure greed and contempt for the customer. The entirety of the game is simply not worth the cost of upgrading a single item as far as I'm concerned.
Not an idiot: just an insanely greedy lead Dev.
Thing is, DR killed alts: that is probably the greatest damage Cryptic did here. The hundreds of dollars I spent already on my main, I can never hope to do the same on my (heretofore fully decked out) Rom alt. All those very expensive purple doffs, Lobi consoles, lockboxes, the Spec tree, and subsequent XP nerfing, with DR Cryptic effectively sent all of those to the recycle bin.
Clearly stating that the upgrade system is a rip off and designed for the epeeners and you don't actually have to do it and you do it anyways makes me think it's not cryptic in this case that has the problem...I;m sorry, but personal responsibility has to step in at some point.
Whatever self-help 12-steps ladder you're on, please come off it! People wanting to upgrade is no different from people wanting end-game gear before DR.
You play the game to make progress. If there's no longer an attainable goal (leveling up, getting better gear, etc), people simply quit. And the latter actually IS the problem: (gear) progression can only be make at insane cost. And when people feel they can no longer progress their items -- at least not without going broke -- then this game is in serious trouble.
See, an MMO should never frustrate progress to the point where it can only be done by the super rich. Upgrading an item to Ultra Rare should never cost you ~300k Dilithium (and untold millions in EC, which is what my Mk XIV Ultra Rare KCB took, for instance).
I learned about the greens pretty quick..
& what bank to you rob to just upgrade with just purple..? lol!
Got lots of mats. but very little purple except Trellium - so yes I can make lots of v. rare engineering tech (lv. 15 in Engineering Research now)
am I any different than anyone else..?
You are correct OP, the upgrade costs are somewhat traumatic for rarity upgrades. Pls realizes that the benefit to get to gold isnt nearly as beneficial as the mk12 to 14 step.
I highly advice to restrain any attempts to selective gear you use constantly and continuously and you know how it works and what benefits it gives to you.
As an example I for my part started with spire tac consoles on one toon. If done with 1,5% rarity booster and experimental upgraders you only look at 100k Dil in worst case per console but in reality and depending on luck it has never been more than ~50k in my case. (5 consoles deliberately upgraded) One even only needed ~20k.
Considering that one can upgrade rarity eventually I approach this topic with worst case math and then decide if it is worth it compared to other in game investments I like to undertake.
Im far away from any statistic but to bring things into perspective I probably will need an average of 30 elite queues (meaning play 1 week!!!!) for 1(!!!) rarity upgrade.
Considering 8 toons with 1 ground and 1 space build each means some 220 upgradeable items and much of my stuff isnt even ultra rare like the spire consoles. I doubt I will complete it ever in my gaming lifetime so there is no point in the strive to do so.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
worst case math Cryptic's style is CHANCE to never win at all
first we had the BORG set in the old STF's. You could play & finish 500 and more STF's and there has been a CHANCE that you will not get your full set. (happened to 2 of my toons), while others got their set on the first finish.
to solve that problem they developed the reputation system.
then, there are lockboxes. you could spend 100's of dollars, open 100's of boxes and get NO SHIP (as the chance of 0,4% pro box is not additive)
to solve that they created LOBI
now, there is a R&D system, where there is NO CLEAR STATEMENT of the maths behind the rarity upgrades (my private assumption is that the dev's just don't care / think so far)
so yes, it is unfinished game design and it will <probably> be addressed sooner o later.
Yes WANT. Key word there. Not NEED. The fact that you lack the impulse control to take your time with the upgrades and do it at a pace your comfortable with and instead just ramming more resources to get it done fast isn't cryptic's fault. Yes, they set the price too high...but you are also at fault for your own lack of self control. Macdonald is bad for your health. If you go there knowing it is bad for your health and eat 5 big macs a day because you WANT it and get a heart attack, who's fault is that? Yes you can blame macdonalds to some degree, but it is also YOUR FAULT.
And yes if you have alts, I can see the need to rush to get gold items because you have alts...maybe making it so BTC items become BTA when you make them gold might be way to help a bit with that (yes I have been giving the whole alt unfriendly aspect a lot of consideration lately).
Bogus analogy is bogus. The Upgrade system can be altered in a few seconds, Macca's have been selling plastic as food for decades...
The problem is there is a duty of care, Macca's for instance really should be liable for the damage caused by dangerous processed foods which are nutritionally deficient yet market it as something that is perfectly ok to eat and especially targeting children with their advertising.
However STO could easily have it's Upgrade system fixed. Have the RP system altered so it's chance to upgrade isn't reverted to zero each time. Have it so that when you fill the Tech up after Mk 14 it doesn't trickle over costing a fortune in Dil. Reduce the dil costs for applying upgrade tokens so it's not insanely overpriced. All that would reduce weapons from costing more than ships on the exchange and returning them to more palatable levels.
Oh and rep gear already has a MASSIVE dil input to get. It should have a discount to upgrade as most is at Mk 12 VR already so unlikely to ding UR or EPIC anytime soon. The upgrades to UR should be fixed not random so you don't waste stupid amounts of Dil trying to get the right Rom Plasma Beams or Refracting Tetryon Beams.
I can continue with the list if you like...
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
Just up-grade to mk xiv and the cost isn't that bad (if you don't do it on to many alt's).
But to up-grade a mk xiv very rare to epic will somethimes cost you a insane amout of very rare tech's and dilitium.
I had 76 very rare cannon tech upgrades, my ship have 2 very rare mk xiv dhc, so i went and upgrade
1 cannon (to ultra-rare)... 76 very rare cannon tech's later the cannon still was very rare and i send over 80k dilitium... chance to get ultra rare was at 32% so i gor more very rare cannon tech from exchance and after using about 23 it finaly went to ultra rare...
So it cost me about 99 very rare cannon upgrade tech's and 106.425 dilitium to upgrade 1 dhc mk xiv very rare to ultra-rare (+ 2.9 dps).
Yes WANT. Key word there. Not NEED. The fact that you lack the impulse control to take your time with the upgrades and do it at a pace your comfortable with and instead just ramming more resources to get it done fast isn't cryptic's fault.
I saw a TV documentary, the other day, about a business going bankrupt. And it was asked of the bank in question financing everything, why they had kept pumping in millions of dollars, knowing said business was going under. And their reply was simply that they had done so, because they had already sunk so much money into it, that it was more opportune for them to try one more investment, rather than just writing everything off.
Same thing with this game. Naturally I could just call it quits today, but I already heftily invested in this game, and in my progress. So, like that bank, grudgingly I just play along a bit futher, in hope of better times, as stopping my progression is, effectively, tantamount to just quitting. And I'm not ready to do that yet.
As for the speed of upgrading, Cryptic bumped *everything* I owned to being sub-par, overnight. So, there's simply a pressure, from within the game itself, to go upgrade things. If you don't, it means you can only use a very select few weps and/or ships, majorly cramping your style. That is currently *already* happening: people feel constricted in their use of ships/weps/space sets, simply because everything is so wickedly expensive to upgrade.
Naturally I can also toss out a quick, hollow line about 'taking personal responsibilty,' people allegedly being unable to control their impulses, and yada, yada, yada. But if you want your stuff back at endgame level again (which is an entirely fair wish), then upgrades are simply required. Or you just stop playing. But, like I said, I'm not reaady to do that yet.
I saw a TV documentary, the other day, about a business going bankrupt. And it was asked of the bank in question financing everything, why they had kept pumping in millions of dollars, knowing said business was going under. And their reply was simply that they had done so, because they had already sunk so much money into it, that it was more opportune for them to try one more investment, rather than just writing everything off.
Same thing with this game.
I have yet to hear a reasonable argument from anyone here that leads me to believe that it's the game that's dying, rather than a handful of forum-goers that are just sad that the game isn't handing everything to them.
And this is coming from someone with 45 characters. I have a hell of a lot on my shoulders, and I sure as hell ain't complaining about it. But that's just me.
Just up-grade to mk xiv and the cost isn't that bad (if you don't do it on to many alt's).
But to up-grade a mk xiv very rare to epic will somethimes cost you a insane amout of very rare tech's and dilitium.
For the record, I only try and go for Epic on Mk II weps, and quit when they're not Gold by Mk VII. Everything else I'm happy to keep at Ultra Rare (which still is very expensive for all your Rep gear).
I have yet to hear a reasonable argument from anyone here that leads me to believe that it's the game that's dying, rather than a handful of forum-goers that are just sad that the game isn't handing everything to them.
You conveniently snipped my post to make it look like I said the game was dying. Not very nice of you. Instead, I was saying that, similar to the bank in my example, people keep investing in this game because they're already in so deep.
For the record, I only try and go for Epic on Mk II weps, and quit when they're not Gold by Mk VII. Everything else I'm happy to keep at Ultra Rare (which still is very expensive for all your Rep gear).
I think I found a trick to that. Make a new character, transfer your upgrade kits to that character, then upgrade. Since they're below level 10, the items won't outlevel them, thus making it easier to get a gold. All you'll need to worry about is transferring them back to your main after they're gold so you can throw tech points at them.
And this method was suggested by a dev, so it's probably legit.
You conveniently snipped my post to make it look like I said the game was dying. Not very nice of you. Instead, I was saying that, similar to the bank in my example, people keep investing in this game because they're already in so deep.
Apologies. Actually, that's kinda the only part I read. ;_;
Comments
Some of the most annoying words spoken on the forum:D
You can't, its all bound to account!
Your pun hits the mark, but there are people who sell their online identity all the time..
I'd never do it..
I just hope they change the system to: what you see is what you get. The game can be very difficult at the advanced level missions (especially with say 4 pugs). I don't want top-end gear for bragging rights, or PvP (which I never do in this game). I want good gear to be able survive & have a successful mission. I have played this game a long time. I've liked what they have done with this game with one glaring exception. If PW does what they should I'd come back in a heartbeat, if not I'd miss it.
This is why I wonder why people NEED to craft.
People should be complaining about the things that actually effect gameplay, like leveling speed, dead queues, unfun mob mechanics, etc.
I have absolutely no problem with Cryptic making the RnD system as a whole, since it is a major factor in bringing them revenue. Sure it needs some tweaks to "guarantee" an upgrade after so many attempts. But on the whole, the RnD system can be completely ignored and isn't necessary to ingame enjoyment.
However, lack of people in the queues, lack of rewards in the queues, excessive grinding of exp;
These are all necessary parts of the game to have an enjoyable experience. I'd rather they fix the necessary parts of the game first.
RnD and upgrades exist in a vacuum, they are not needed IMO. Cryptic needs to adjust it so it is a fair revenue stream, but it should only ever be treated as such.
You don't upgrade an item because you need to, you do it to support Cryptic, and in return Cryptic gives you shiny stats; much like the system of purchases of C-Store and lockbox ships functions. This is Pay-to-Win in its ideal model.
However with Delta Rising, Cryptic made the grinding painful enough to start to make people feel that RnD and upgrades are indeed necessary to enjoy the game to its fullest, and IMO those are predatory tactics.
So to be clear OP, you don't ever need to do RnD, so don't let the devs dictate to you that you need it just because of their primitive Pavlovian psychology traps they added with DR. The first step to playing this game without the need to spend money is to realize that they are employing predatory psychological tactics to force money out of you.
Convert your rage into peaceful protest, and maybe we can see a change.
How about a better example..
If you do a duty-officer mission when it completes you know exactly how it came out
critical success
success
or failure
with so much literally at stake your aren't told anything in the upgrade system about the mission outcome. Upgrades at the lower levels are automatic at the top tier the rules change
I never ignored it.. I made tickets (which were ignored by STO - hence no feedback) & asked around my fleet and others. I asked a GM. No one knew, not many have gotten as far as I have in the upgrade system. That is why I'm here - to warn others & hopefully people won't all be like sheep & complain if they choose or possibly take there business elsewhere. 'Beeeeh - you don't need it', 'Beeeeh - it was your own fault.. I know your kind..:rolleyes:
But you don't need it.
I definitely agree the gambling aspect has to go; it's just supremely unfair to do it that way.
and that is a perfectly valid opinion
my issue is that it was clearly stated as such and the OP misunderstood, wasted dil, and blamed the system for his own misunderstanding
^^ Yes, yes, the usual grandstanding.
Funny thing is, though (or maybe not so funny), is that it doesnt really matter that the OP misunderstood: the insane upgrade costs remain the same. 318k per round for a single Shield, just to get it to Ultra Rare? Fu very much indeed!
Not an idiot: just an insanely greedy lead Dev.
Thing is, DR killed alts: that is probably the greatest damage Cryptic did here. The hundreds of dollars I spent already on my main, I can never hope to do the same on my (heretofore fully decked out) Rom alt. All those very expensive purple doffs, Lobi consoles, lockboxes, the Spec tree, and subsequent XP nerfing, with DR Cryptic effectively sent all of those to the recycle bin.
I don't see the need to go beyond Mk XIV and whatever the quality is. If I win the lottery with a random epic upgrade, that's even better.
Whatever self-help 12-steps ladder you're on, please come off it! People wanting to upgrade is no different from people wanting end-game gear before DR.
You play the game to make progress. If there's no longer an attainable goal (leveling up, getting better gear, etc), people simply quit. And the latter actually IS the problem: (gear) progression can only be make at insane cost. And when people feel they can no longer progress their items -- at least not without going broke -- then this game is in serious trouble.
See, an MMO should never frustrate progress to the point where it can only be done by the super rich. Upgrading an item to Ultra Rare should never cost you ~300k Dilithium (and untold millions in EC, which is what my Mk XIV Ultra Rare KCB took, for instance).
& what bank to you rob to just upgrade with just purple..? lol!
Got lots of mats. but very little purple except Trellium - so yes I can make lots of v. rare engineering tech (lv. 15 in Engineering Research now)
am I any different than anyone else..?
I highly advice to restrain any attempts to selective gear you use constantly and continuously and you know how it works and what benefits it gives to you.
As an example I for my part started with spire tac consoles on one toon. If done with 1,5% rarity booster and experimental upgraders you only look at 100k Dil in worst case per console but in reality and depending on luck it has never been more than ~50k in my case. (5 consoles deliberately upgraded) One even only needed ~20k.
Considering that one can upgrade rarity eventually I approach this topic with worst case math and then decide if it is worth it compared to other in game investments I like to undertake.
Im far away from any statistic but to bring things into perspective I probably will need an average of 30 elite queues (meaning play 1 week!!!!) for 1(!!!) rarity upgrade.
Considering 8 toons with 1 ground and 1 space build each means some 220 upgradeable items and much of my stuff isnt even ultra rare like the spire consoles. I doubt I will complete it ever in my gaming lifetime so there is no point in the strive to do so.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
going to mk xiii is worth it
first we had the BORG set in the old STF's. You could play & finish 500 and more STF's and there has been a CHANCE that you will not get your full set. (happened to 2 of my toons), while others got their set on the first finish.
to solve that problem they developed the reputation system.
then, there are lockboxes. you could spend 100's of dollars, open 100's of boxes and get NO SHIP (as the chance of 0,4% pro box is not additive)
to solve that they created LOBI
now, there is a R&D system, where there is NO CLEAR STATEMENT of the maths behind the rarity upgrades (my private assumption is that the dev's just don't care / think so far)
so yes, it is unfinished game design and it will <probably> be addressed sooner o later.
Bogus analogy is bogus. The Upgrade system can be altered in a few seconds, Macca's have been selling plastic as food for decades...
The problem is there is a duty of care, Macca's for instance really should be liable for the damage caused by dangerous processed foods which are nutritionally deficient yet market it as something that is perfectly ok to eat and especially targeting children with their advertising.
However STO could easily have it's Upgrade system fixed. Have the RP system altered so it's chance to upgrade isn't reverted to zero each time. Have it so that when you fill the Tech up after Mk 14 it doesn't trickle over costing a fortune in Dil. Reduce the dil costs for applying upgrade tokens so it's not insanely overpriced. All that would reduce weapons from costing more than ships on the exchange and returning them to more palatable levels.
Oh and rep gear already has a MASSIVE dil input to get. It should have a discount to upgrade as most is at Mk 12 VR already so unlikely to ding UR or EPIC anytime soon. The upgrades to UR should be fixed not random so you don't waste stupid amounts of Dil trying to get the right Rom Plasma Beams or Refracting Tetryon Beams.
I can continue with the list if you like...
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
But to up-grade a mk xiv very rare to epic will somethimes cost you a insane amout of very rare tech's and dilitium.
I had 76 very rare cannon tech upgrades, my ship have 2 very rare mk xiv dhc, so i went and upgrade
1 cannon (to ultra-rare)... 76 very rare cannon tech's later the cannon still was very rare and i send over 80k dilitium... chance to get ultra rare was at 32% so i gor more very rare cannon tech from exchance and after using about 23 it finaly went to ultra rare...
So it cost me about 99 very rare cannon upgrade tech's and 106.425 dilitium to upgrade 1 dhc mk xiv very rare to ultra-rare (+ 2.9 dps).
I saw a TV documentary, the other day, about a business going bankrupt. And it was asked of the bank in question financing everything, why they had kept pumping in millions of dollars, knowing said business was going under. And their reply was simply that they had done so, because they had already sunk so much money into it, that it was more opportune for them to try one more investment, rather than just writing everything off.
Same thing with this game. Naturally I could just call it quits today, but I already heftily invested in this game, and in my progress. So, like that bank, grudgingly I just play along a bit futher, in hope of better times, as stopping my progression is, effectively, tantamount to just quitting. And I'm not ready to do that yet.
As for the speed of upgrading, Cryptic bumped *everything* I owned to being sub-par, overnight. So, there's simply a pressure, from within the game itself, to go upgrade things. If you don't, it means you can only use a very select few weps and/or ships, majorly cramping your style. That is currently *already* happening: people feel constricted in their use of ships/weps/space sets, simply because everything is so wickedly expensive to upgrade.
Naturally I can also toss out a quick, hollow line about 'taking personal responsibilty,' people allegedly being unable to control their impulses, and yada, yada, yada. But if you want your stuff back at endgame level again (which is an entirely fair wish), then upgrades are simply required. Or you just stop playing. But, like I said, I'm not reaady to do that yet.
And this is coming from someone with 45 characters. I have a hell of a lot on my shoulders, and I sure as hell ain't complaining about it. But that's just me.
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For the record, I only try and go for Epic on Mk II weps, and quit when they're not Gold by Mk VII. Everything else I'm happy to keep at Ultra Rare (which still is very expensive for all your Rep gear).
You conveniently snipped my post to make it look like I said the game was dying. Not very nice of you. Instead, I was saying that, similar to the bank in my example, people keep investing in this game because they're already in so deep.
And this method was suggested by a dev, so it's probably legit.
Apologies. Actually, that's kinda the only part I read. ;_;
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