I could be entirely wrong, and I am also not going to claim credit as "the one who got Geko to apologize" because I can't know what he was thinking since he didn't say that and others spoke up after me--but I *will* mention that with his most recent post, the strategy I took of pointing out how his words could be interpreted and how they undermined his intended message (the hard data is a different aspect and I am still in waiting and observation mode on that) while not calling him names or saying that he MUST be a hateful person does seem to have resulted in a more productive outcome than flames would have.
Sometimes it helps a little to model the kind of behavior you want to see. I can't say what if any impact it might have because how a person acts is their own decision, but I admit I *did* find that interesting to see what might occasionally happen if you don't flame back.
My issue is not with Geko as a person.
He reminds me of friends of mine. Maybe he reminds me of myself. I think some of the *personal* flack he takes is uncalled for and I don't generally speak up about that unless it crosses a line. I know people in his position have been doxed and received actual threats and that bothers me. It really does.
Geko as a person seems like somebody I'd probably have a fun conversation with at a coffee shop, bar, or convention. I just relistened to his last STOked interview and I found myself liking the guy as a person and sympathizing with him.
Now, when it comes to culture and strategy, yeah. I have issues with Cryptic and with the management and design that Geko is a big part of. And I absolutely take issue with how he presents himself to the community.
If I were in a room with him with a whiteboard and coffee and donuts and we were discussing strategy, I'd probably have a blast working with him. But it is different when you're talking business and it's different when you're talking public communication.
I guess you could say that I really like Al Rivera and I really don't like Captain Geko. I wouldn't mind engaging with Al Rivera the team leader and designer and fellow geek, particularly if I could have a say in those discussions. Whereas Captain Geko is this aloof figure who refuses to explain himself and is trying to sell me something, usually by taking away something I already have access to and selling it back to me. And I don't like that.
I figure the truth cuts both ways that Al Rivera -- if he knew me -- would rather deal with ME, the coffee guzzling guy in the glasses who loves diagramming pop culture, checking out ideas with napkin math, and is bordering on being a 30-something professional student at this point, than he would Leviathan99, that guy on the message board. And I'm sure he's probably read more of my frustrated posts and the first paragraphs of my rants more than he's read the third paragraph where I express desire to see Cryptic bigger and better or the attaboys I've tossed Cryptic.
I blame the medium maybe but at least part of the medium between us and Cryptic is not just the message board medium but the business medium. And they really aren't interested in letting customers break through the communication barriers there, which is maddening. I feel like Zod screaming through the Phantom Zone some time or like somebody talking over a really bad telephone connection.
The core theme of this vaguely reminds me of the way the Doom thread started (hint: it wasn't originally a contest to see how many ways you could say 'doom').
A group of people are so dead-set on discounting useless whining that they catch legitimate concerns in the collateral damage, and often end up doing the very thing they so vehemently oppose by literally whining about whining.
And all the while, they don't actually possess a clear definition of which statements even qualify as 'whining.'
I want to thank you. I am actually glad people like you exist.
No, I am serious here. You might be able to change something for the better, while I tend to be quite blinded by my hate right now.
I can't say what someone else is going to do, of course. But I do know that sometimes people--especially very technical people--have a genuinely difficult time predicting the potential consequences of what they say and do, and do not always see what the consequences to them could be (i.e. that said behavior will cause the opposite of the intended result) until it is explained what the problem is and why it is a problem.
Sometimes with very technical personalities, getting really emotional and going on a rant in return will just get you dismissed as an illogical idiot who can't take it, and only until you show logically how a certain behavior is counterproductive to their desired goal of what they want to get you to do, they won't take you seriously. For others it's not that they don't care but they genuinely don't get it and are honestly shocked (sometimes even hurt underneath, even if they don't show it) when what they do backfires and can't understand how it is that they keep stepping in it until someone lays it out step-by-step the difference between doing it right and doing it wrong.
I can't say that's the deal with Geko since he hasn't said that, but I have had to learn this the hard way dealing with people who HAVE said it is an issue for them.
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I hate to break it to you - but they have come forward and admitted their wrongdoing in the past. All the business with skills points and that Tau Dewa patrol for example - they took the skill points away, and then after an uprising by the players, they gave them back.
Granted, it could have been handled a bit better, but to say Cryptic never apologizes simply isn't true.
oh, you mean the apology that was basically a backhanded apology. while he said sorry, he kept trying to explain why everyone was a cheater.. apologies are when someone admits they were wrong.. admitting you are wrong means you don't try to stand there and still defend your decision..
the apology we got felt almost forced (like he was being told to make it, and didn't believe in it). I will give him credit for doing it, but the wow apology was from the heart, and he meant every word, and they even gave us something extra for the inconvenience.
all the sto apology got us was our rightly earned points back. nothing more, nothing less. don't make diangelos apology sound like it is on par with the wow apology, or any other games.. it was a backhanded apology..
as far as the people saying the community is the reason the devs don't speak up anymore,, well, the devs and company made their own bed on that one. you white knights make it sound like cryptic is run by a bunch of 90 year old women who would never say anything, or do anything to TRIBBLE the community off.
the condition the forums, and ingame chat are currently in are a direct dirivitive of failed promises, devs lashing out at players and insulting them, and cryptics own unwillingness to admit their failures in the past, instead, trying to keep their pride and continueing forward with said failures.
For that particular thing--Japorigate--I still remain unconvinced that there was not a small subset of people who did something WAY beyond just using the Tau Dewa sector, something that absolutely was out-and-out cheating. Something that no normal or even bugged patrol could produce on its own by just teaming and repeating content. I think the communication of this fact could have been way better and that the reaction to it could have been far more targeted instead of kneejerk. But I actually don't think D'Angelo was lying.
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I could be entirely wrong, and I am also not going to claim credit as "the one who got Geko to apologize" because I can't know what he was thinking since he didn't say that and others spoke up after me--but I *will* mention that with his most recent post, the strategy I took of pointing out how his words could be interpreted and how they undermined his intended message (the hard data is a different aspect and I am still in waiting and observation mode on that) while not calling him names or saying that he MUST be a hateful person does seem to have resulted in a more productive outcome than flames would have.
Sometimes it helps a little to model the kind of behavior you want to see. I can't say what if any impact it might have because how a person acts is their own decision, but I admit I *did* find that interesting to see what might occasionally happen if you don't flame back.
while I agree, I will say this, at one point, the forums were a fun happy place, and ingame chat was the same.. sure, you had a few trolls flaming and being dummies here and there, but, everyone was engaged and working towards a common goal.. im not gonna lie, a lot of times devs and players joked about stuff together, and when there was an issue, we discussed it..
but as we got closer to free to play, and pwe took control, stuff changed. answers that used to be ubundent, were scarce, if at all heard. the dev team stopped all together working with the player base. the change started to get on peoples nerves, as we were used to a certain type of response from cryptic, even though it wasn't great, it was still there..
now, we get nothing, they say next to nothing, they insult and ignore the player base.. this has created the type of forums you see now..
I love that people blame the player base, well rewind 4 years, and tell me what was there, and look now.. that shows a complete failure in the pr at cryptic.
whoever is in charge of making posts on the facebook page, should be incharge of the forums as well, cause on the face book page, if something goes wrong, we get regular updates, and there is more communication on that page, than there is anywhere else. even if the person doesn't know the answer, they let the public know that someone has seen the problem, that goes a long ways.
I just took a service of exelence course a few months back. I was trained to tell anyone I was dealing with that (weather I knew the answer or not), that we are aware of the issue, that we are working towards a resolution, and to give frequent updates.. showing that you care goes a long way..
if someone owes me something, or I need help from someone, I respond to delays better if said person lets me know they are gonna be late, or unable to make the deadline for what they owe me, rather than the time coming and going and not hearing anything.
For that particular thing--Japorigate--I still remain unconvinced that there was not a small subset of people who did something WAY beyond just using the Tau Dewa sector, something that absolutely was out-and-out cheating. Something that no normal or even bugged patrol could produce on its own by just teaming and repeating content. I think the communication of this fact could have been way better and that the reaction to it could have been far more targeted instead of kneejerk. But I actually don't think D'Angelo was lying.
I don't think he was either, but he at one point tried to tell people who were legitamatly jipped out of points too bad so sad..
its not about weather there was an issue or not, it was the way they just railroaded it.. especially with other game altering bugs on the bucket list as well.
add to that, that while some people might have been cheating, a lot were not, and they basically rolled everyone back.. they did that in neverwinter when people were destroying the auction house.. instead of punishing them, and fixing it from that point forward, they reversed the servers a few days, I know I lost something like 10 or more levels, and that was not fair.
further more, it was the very unattached apology that made it feel like he really wasn't sorry. his apology, the page it was, was more about why he thought he was right, and less about why he was wrong. that's not an apology.. not like the wow apolgy, where he basically said, hey, we effed up, he didn't even try to make excuses, just said they made the mistake, thanks for bearing with us, heres a little something something.. boom, bobs your uncle..
our apology was, hey guys, while I still think your all cheating s bags, I guess were gonna give everyone their points back, cause this seems to be an s storm that is not going away.. and it also seems to be getting us negative press at the moment. so well quietly sweep this under the rug and call it a day.
Tacofangs you can go read his whole "why developers can't handle negative posts" and gecko was kind enough to go off over nothing while on the air several times this summer.
Either way though, if you aren't able to perform your job for whatever reason you belong in another job.
It doesn't apologize for nothing that you are an "analytic" person or whatever
If you can live until you are 40 or 50 and still don't have the ability to be around others then you have far greater problems then your immediate job...
They've just been out of touch with reality for so long whenever they post now they get attacked by 300 sharks seeing blood in the water
All of them got huge lists with items stretching back 4 years when all they want is to sell the next ship.
I think they quite obviously gave up earning credibility and respect not just in the lack of post and communication but just as much in where the gameplay is going.
If you notice how they love to enforce this picture of anyone complaining as illegitmate think about how disrespecful that is, like no one but them is entitled to an opinion.
This is after their 6 Q&A testers come out and say they don't have the resources to test anything and they entirely depend on the community to do beta testing... on the live server, after release.
In the end though I don't really care if they have this illusion of themselves of demi-gods, lack people's skills or are afraid.
All I care about is the 2½ years they spend deleting and nerfing litterly every feature in the whole game and just when you though everything was terrible DR hit.
And it's a pity, because something like this is probably exactly what everyone - the playerbase and Cryptic included - needs.
I guess you missed the week of people threatening to sue, terminate the employment of and even murder the developers of WoW the week before that apology went up. They then proceeded to NOT apologize for their comments and a few of them even threw the apology back at Allen's face in a few threads, citing it as lip service and complaining that they still had queues on highly popular realms, despite the wait time going down from five hours to 20 minutes.
What's the point in apologizing if the other guy continues to act like a total royal a-hole to spite you?
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP"
Believe me, I am just as frustrated with the state of the game as you are, and I am not in any way trying to diminish your frustrations because they are legitimate.
I also think there is an argument that could be made that Cryptic has some people with I compatibly broad job descriptions. I worked in customer service and had/have training for it. I actually suspect the *dedicated* skillset--as in, pure customer service--only barely exists at Cryptic, with just a few people who do not have the support from above or a large enough staff with them to be effective. That said, with the company likely not in any position for growth after this fiasco, I would say that realistically either a turnaround would come about by showing those who are here how to handle these kinds of situations, or it won't happen at all. :-/
So as frustrated I am, that's why I'm trying not to go the flaming and vilifying route because I feel like if there is even a small chance of getting this game and the community that I care about out of this total free-fall, being nasty will take a small chance down to pretty much zero.
Do I blame the customer base? No, ultimately the decision is down to the company. That said, maybe the "seed" of customer service could do with a little Miracle-Gro, so I'm going to throw a bit of that in the mix. Maybe it won't take. Or maybe it will. But I will know even if just for myself that I tried.
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For blizzard who are worth billions I'm sure giving added stuff to players who pay a sub to play is nothing
Sto is a free game remember
Yes yes yes customer service etc but as a whole cryptic aren't that bad I've delt with worse
I'm not asking for free stuff. I'm asking for an apology and for some effort to fix the big problems we keep telling them about (namely crafting and levelling grind).
I guess you missed the week of people threatening to sue, terminate the employment of and even murder the developers of WoW the week before that apology went up. They then proceeded to NOT apologize for their comments and a few of them even threw the apology back at Allen's face in a few threads, citing it as lip service and complaining that they still had queues on highly popular realms, despite the wait time going down from five hours to 20 minutes.
What's the point in apologizing if the other guy continues to act like a total royal a-hole to spite you?
I'll admit, I was not aware of this - the replies in the actual apology thread seemed overwhelmingly positive.
However, I still think that something similar would go a long way here.
For blizzard who are worth billions I'm sure giving added stuff to players who pay a sub to play is nothing
Sto is a free game remember
Yes yes yes customer service etc but as a whole cryptic aren't that bad I've delt with worse
except I net with the model cryptic has, they make more per customer than wow does..
its not about money, or what the company is worth.. you stand by your product and try to make it the best it can be, that is how you grow a company..
a company that has TRIBBLE poor customer service, in an industry that demands that customer service basically come first, isn't going to do well..
look at the top games out there, while I will not try to claim that they have larger player numbers, and larger profits because of customer service alone, I will say it goes a long way into helping the numbers..
blizzard, has pretty good customer service, probably the largest gaming company and most profitable out there (even after there merger)
trion, another gameing company that puts customer service first and foremost, and boom, they wipe the floor with cryptic as far as player numbers. (and they directly compete with blizzard, sto has no real competition when it comes to genre).
these are just two examples, there are others out there that have lesser customer service than these two, but much much better than cryptic, and they all do fine.. im using these two as they are a staple of how customer service should be.
both will come out and admit failure, problems, and apologize, genuinely. both you can call someone on the phone, and get assistance usually within the same day (given its not like a realease week or what not).
cryptic has nothing.. I have filed tickets, and their automated response system has completely borked the response.. I say I need help with a. they send me how to fix b.. and that is after a solid week of waiting for a response.. (and im lucky if its only a week).
I have two tickets out there, that are well past a month and a half since I put them in, they are all still in open status, and not responded to. I have no real option of calling anyone to get direct help from. and ingame gm support is a laughable joke.
yes, its true everygame has bugs, but sto is a large exception. sure, wow and trion have bugs when they launch stuff, but they also fix them pretty quick.. if their servers go down, it doesn't take a day to get them back up. it takes a few hours.. trion even throws little apologies in their patch notes when they release info on bug fixes.. it is not uncommon to see "hey, sorry, we goofed, that power was supposed to do x, and not y. heres the fix, enjoy". when I see that, I feel as if they care..
its not suprising that these are two of the larger mmos, while sto struggles to stay middle to lower end of the pack. and then, when I hear comments like jam jams comments when he first started, where he made fun of star trek fans (something to do with abe Lincoln and blah blah blah, but yeah, that incited a huge forum war, and was pretty much when the devs went silent) or gecko telling us why we wont see wolf 359 ships (because he doesn't like them), or calling the player base babies and what not, you can really see where a lot of the rage, and non support for the game comes from.
Posts like this are also why Cryptic developers don't really want to talk with players on the forums. Why bother if you know someone will insult and berate you anyway?
Because speaking as someone who for work was in this position, you don't treat your stakeholders as an undifferentiated mob, and you recognize that you're apologizing to "That nice person who's always supported us who we let down" while you're also expecting and going to ignore "The troll in the corner who will snap and whine anyway".
Avoiding your responsibilities to your customers with a hand-waving "Oh, not all 100% of people watching will be unwaveringly supportive" is a cowardly cop-out. It's a flimsy excuse. And it's not acceptable.
They have apologized in the past for their errors, they made a special combadge and emote to apologize for the release debacle. I've also seen other apologies in the past but not recently, they don't even communicate much with the unwashed masses anymore, and when they do, it's almost invariably in the form of an announcement from their ivory towers that we really can't respond to except in the forums.
Getting announements from on high is just not the same as a sit-down with the populace, it's more of a royal edict.
I guess you missed the week of people threatening to sue, terminate the employment of and even murder the developers of WoW the week before that apology went up. They then proceeded to NOT apologize for their comments and a few of them even threw the apology back at Allen's face in a few threads, citing it as lip service and complaining that they still had queues on highly popular realms, despite the wait time going down from five hours to 20 minutes.
What's the point in apologizing if the other guy continues to act like a total royal a-hole to spite you?
What's the point? The point is being professional. The point is owning up to your mistakes. The point is trying to compensate for the damage done by your mistakes. The point is realizing that your pockets are filled with the money of the people your mistake aggravated.
The difference is Allen realizes that while they surely have quite a few a-holes in their huge community, they also have cool, good hearted and rational people. And while he knows that there's probably nothing they can do to appease the a-holes, being a-holes and all - all the other normal and rational people will apreciate an honest appology and it would mean something to them, which in fact did in this particular case with WoW.
Unlike D'Angelo who called everyone exploiters or Geko who calls everyone morons.
I really do think that they will rebalance the xp, there have been some good suggestions made and though Cryptic and I have had our problems, I can't see them letting this particular issue stand when it so adversely affects the entire community.
As it's the weekend, the devs and planners are off at home ignoring the heck out of the game, I'm sure they'll look at it again on Monday and I'm also sure that they monitor the metrics closely to see what affects it's having on their bottom lines.
I do know one thing, if they were running things right, I would actually have to use my priority login from my LTS, I don't think that's ever been an issue when there hasn't been a major login bug. There is something seriously wrong, but the xp thing is fixable.
I am past this point. Two years ago I defended this game fiercly.
One year ago, I began to doubt Geko, but still loved STO.
Two months ago, I said "DR will be the make or break moment of STO".
It was break.
Here we are, and there is nothing left for me then to watch these forums and pray that DR will break Geko's neck.
2 years ago I stopped playing STO and played Mechwarrior Online for a change.
If you think STO is bad, has poor business practices, shoddy content and all that makes you angry enough to wish people's career failure or worse, don't try MW:O.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I'm not asking for free stuff. I'm asking for an apology and for some effort to fix the big problems we keep telling them about (namely crafting and levelling grind).
Do you realize how different the WoW and the STO situation are here?
With Blizzard, the problem was stuff like server queues - people taking forever to even log into the game.
With STO, your problem is how long it takes to craft or level.
In one case, the services people subscribed for were not provided. In the other, people don't like the particular implementation of a (no subcription required) service.
You can still log into STO, play your characters, do missions and all that. The only thing you're not happy with is how fast the various progression bars in the game move, but it doesn't block you from playing the game.
What's the point? The point is being professional. The point is owning up to your mistakes. The point is trying to compensate for the damage done by your mistakes.
WoW subscribers basically got 3 days of their subscription back due to the server problems.
STO players got lost specialization points back.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
The fact that at least one out of every two threads in the forums is a legitimate complaint about something,
the fact the gameplay bugs subsection of the forums is rife with bugs that are not mere bugs but plainly broken mechanics and systems,
the fact that dedicated players who have invested money and more importantly, time in the game for years are playing less and less or are thinking of leaving altogether,
the fact that new players are having a pretty decent experience until they hit the level 50 - DR wall,
the fact that the queues are empty not just because they are "hard" but because more than half of them were rendered worthless of time or are bugged or have ridiculous timers,
the fact that anyone who still plays has to dedicate their time to the harvesting of mats for upgrades instead of fooling around with their alts,
the fact that anyone who still plays are more or less locked in to their specific upgraded gear set on a specific toon unless they were very rich in resources before upgrading,
the fact that PVP has had its coffin nailed shut once and for all,
the fact that the fears that all T5U ships would be rendered worthless - shortly after the money for their upgrade was spent - were realized in the triumphant release of the T6 Intrepid,
all these facts apparently mean that nobody has any reason to apologize for anything to anyone.
WoW subscribers basically got 3 days of their subscription back due to the server problems.
STO players got lost specialization points back.
And this is relevant to my post....how?
I was just answering that other player what's the point in apologizing if a part of the community still behaves like a-holes towards you. You probably can't do anything to prevent a-holes being a-holes, but you sure can establish a positive and respectfull relationship with the cool and rational people that play your game - and that goes a long way.
I hate to break it to you - but they have come forward and admitted their wrongdoing in the past. All the business with skills points and that Tau Dewa patrol for example - they took the skill points away, and then after an uprising by the players, they gave them back.
Granted, it could have been handled a bit better, but to say Cryptic never apologizes simply isn't true.
Don't confuse words with an apology .
D'Angelo's signature was on a bunch of words . I saw no apology there .
Not for carpet bombing with "exploiters" .
Not for shutting down a sector .
Not for toying with the ingame achievements of players based on either unreliable data or incompetent use of data .
... his "apology" amounted to "f%^k it , we have better ways to nerf y'all" ...
I'd rather they just got things done instead of waste time with grovelling apologies. Actions speak louder than words.
The actions have spoken, just as loud as the words from PWEclvrgrovelandwhatever. Translated it is "We couldn't give a ***** what you want, we'll make an avg game into a Korean Grindfest and shove it in your face like week old faeces and try to force you to eat it, then say it was your fault for not eating it..."
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
Comments
My issue is not with Geko as a person.
He reminds me of friends of mine. Maybe he reminds me of myself. I think some of the *personal* flack he takes is uncalled for and I don't generally speak up about that unless it crosses a line. I know people in his position have been doxed and received actual threats and that bothers me. It really does.
Geko as a person seems like somebody I'd probably have a fun conversation with at a coffee shop, bar, or convention. I just relistened to his last STOked interview and I found myself liking the guy as a person and sympathizing with him.
Now, when it comes to culture and strategy, yeah. I have issues with Cryptic and with the management and design that Geko is a big part of. And I absolutely take issue with how he presents himself to the community.
If I were in a room with him with a whiteboard and coffee and donuts and we were discussing strategy, I'd probably have a blast working with him. But it is different when you're talking business and it's different when you're talking public communication.
I guess you could say that I really like Al Rivera and I really don't like Captain Geko. I wouldn't mind engaging with Al Rivera the team leader and designer and fellow geek, particularly if I could have a say in those discussions. Whereas Captain Geko is this aloof figure who refuses to explain himself and is trying to sell me something, usually by taking away something I already have access to and selling it back to me. And I don't like that.
I figure the truth cuts both ways that Al Rivera -- if he knew me -- would rather deal with ME, the coffee guzzling guy in the glasses who loves diagramming pop culture, checking out ideas with napkin math, and is bordering on being a 30-something professional student at this point, than he would Leviathan99, that guy on the message board. And I'm sure he's probably read more of my frustrated posts and the first paragraphs of my rants more than he's read the third paragraph where I express desire to see Cryptic bigger and better or the attaboys I've tossed Cryptic.
I blame the medium maybe but at least part of the medium between us and Cryptic is not just the message board medium but the business medium. And they really aren't interested in letting customers break through the communication barriers there, which is maddening. I feel like Zod screaming through the Phantom Zone some time or like somebody talking over a really bad telephone connection.
The core theme of this vaguely reminds me of the way the Doom thread started (hint: it wasn't originally a contest to see how many ways you could say 'doom').
A group of people are so dead-set on discounting useless whining that they catch legitimate concerns in the collateral damage, and often end up doing the very thing they so vehemently oppose by literally whining about whining.
And all the while, they don't actually possess a clear definition of which statements even qualify as 'whining.'
I can't say what someone else is going to do, of course. But I do know that sometimes people--especially very technical people--have a genuinely difficult time predicting the potential consequences of what they say and do, and do not always see what the consequences to them could be (i.e. that said behavior will cause the opposite of the intended result) until it is explained what the problem is and why it is a problem.
Sometimes with very technical personalities, getting really emotional and going on a rant in return will just get you dismissed as an illogical idiot who can't take it, and only until you show logically how a certain behavior is counterproductive to their desired goal of what they want to get you to do, they won't take you seriously. For others it's not that they don't care but they genuinely don't get it and are honestly shocked (sometimes even hurt underneath, even if they don't show it) when what they do backfires and can't understand how it is that they keep stepping in it until someone lays it out step-by-step the difference between doing it right and doing it wrong.
I can't say that's the deal with Geko since he hasn't said that, but I have had to learn this the hard way dealing with people who HAVE said it is an issue for them.
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oh, you mean the apology that was basically a backhanded apology. while he said sorry, he kept trying to explain why everyone was a cheater.. apologies are when someone admits they were wrong.. admitting you are wrong means you don't try to stand there and still defend your decision..
the apology we got felt almost forced (like he was being told to make it, and didn't believe in it). I will give him credit for doing it, but the wow apology was from the heart, and he meant every word, and they even gave us something extra for the inconvenience.
all the sto apology got us was our rightly earned points back. nothing more, nothing less. don't make diangelos apology sound like it is on par with the wow apology, or any other games.. it was a backhanded apology..
as far as the people saying the community is the reason the devs don't speak up anymore,, well, the devs and company made their own bed on that one. you white knights make it sound like cryptic is run by a bunch of 90 year old women who would never say anything, or do anything to TRIBBLE the community off.
the condition the forums, and ingame chat are currently in are a direct dirivitive of failed promises, devs lashing out at players and insulting them, and cryptics own unwillingness to admit their failures in the past, instead, trying to keep their pride and continueing forward with said failures.
the end.
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while I agree, I will say this, at one point, the forums were a fun happy place, and ingame chat was the same.. sure, you had a few trolls flaming and being dummies here and there, but, everyone was engaged and working towards a common goal.. im not gonna lie, a lot of times devs and players joked about stuff together, and when there was an issue, we discussed it..
but as we got closer to free to play, and pwe took control, stuff changed. answers that used to be ubundent, were scarce, if at all heard. the dev team stopped all together working with the player base. the change started to get on peoples nerves, as we were used to a certain type of response from cryptic, even though it wasn't great, it was still there..
now, we get nothing, they say next to nothing, they insult and ignore the player base.. this has created the type of forums you see now..
I love that people blame the player base, well rewind 4 years, and tell me what was there, and look now.. that shows a complete failure in the pr at cryptic.
whoever is in charge of making posts on the facebook page, should be incharge of the forums as well, cause on the face book page, if something goes wrong, we get regular updates, and there is more communication on that page, than there is anywhere else. even if the person doesn't know the answer, they let the public know that someone has seen the problem, that goes a long ways.
I just took a service of exelence course a few months back. I was trained to tell anyone I was dealing with that (weather I knew the answer or not), that we are aware of the issue, that we are working towards a resolution, and to give frequent updates.. showing that you care goes a long way..
if someone owes me something, or I need help from someone, I respond to delays better if said person lets me know they are gonna be late, or unable to make the deadline for what they owe me, rather than the time coming and going and not hearing anything.
I don't think he was either, but he at one point tried to tell people who were legitamatly jipped out of points too bad so sad..
its not about weather there was an issue or not, it was the way they just railroaded it.. especially with other game altering bugs on the bucket list as well.
add to that, that while some people might have been cheating, a lot were not, and they basically rolled everyone back.. they did that in neverwinter when people were destroying the auction house.. instead of punishing them, and fixing it from that point forward, they reversed the servers a few days, I know I lost something like 10 or more levels, and that was not fair.
further more, it was the very unattached apology that made it feel like he really wasn't sorry. his apology, the page it was, was more about why he thought he was right, and less about why he was wrong. that's not an apology.. not like the wow apolgy, where he basically said, hey, we effed up, he didn't even try to make excuses, just said they made the mistake, thanks for bearing with us, heres a little something something.. boom, bobs your uncle..
our apology was, hey guys, while I still think your all cheating s bags, I guess were gonna give everyone their points back, cause this seems to be an s storm that is not going away.. and it also seems to be getting us negative press at the moment. so well quietly sweep this under the rug and call it a day.
that's what I got from steves apology.
Tacofangs you can go read his whole "why developers can't handle negative posts" and gecko was kind enough to go off over nothing while on the air several times this summer.
Either way though, if you aren't able to perform your job for whatever reason you belong in another job.
It doesn't apologize for nothing that you are an "analytic" person or whatever
If you can live until you are 40 or 50 and still don't have the ability to be around others then you have far greater problems then your immediate job...
They've just been out of touch with reality for so long whenever they post now they get attacked by 300 sharks seeing blood in the water
All of them got huge lists with items stretching back 4 years when all they want is to sell the next ship.
I think they quite obviously gave up earning credibility and respect not just in the lack of post and communication but just as much in where the gameplay is going.
If you notice how they love to enforce this picture of anyone complaining as illegitmate think about how disrespecful that is, like no one but them is entitled to an opinion.
This is after their 6 Q&A testers come out and say they don't have the resources to test anything and they entirely depend on the community to do beta testing... on the live server, after release.
In the end though I don't really care if they have this illusion of themselves of demi-gods, lack people's skills or are afraid.
All I care about is the 2½ years they spend deleting and nerfing litterly every feature in the whole game and just when you though everything was terrible DR hit.
I guess you missed the week of people threatening to sue, terminate the employment of and even murder the developers of WoW the week before that apology went up. They then proceeded to NOT apologize for their comments and a few of them even threw the apology back at Allen's face in a few threads, citing it as lip service and complaining that they still had queues on highly popular realms, despite the wait time going down from five hours to 20 minutes.
What's the point in apologizing if the other guy continues to act like a total royal a-hole to spite you?
-Leonard Nimoy, RIP
Sto is a free game remember
Yes yes yes customer service etc but as a whole cryptic aren't that bad I've delt with worse
I also think there is an argument that could be made that Cryptic has some people with I compatibly broad job descriptions. I worked in customer service and had/have training for it. I actually suspect the *dedicated* skillset--as in, pure customer service--only barely exists at Cryptic, with just a few people who do not have the support from above or a large enough staff with them to be effective. That said, with the company likely not in any position for growth after this fiasco, I would say that realistically either a turnaround would come about by showing those who are here how to handle these kinds of situations, or it won't happen at all. :-/
So as frustrated I am, that's why I'm trying not to go the flaming and vilifying route because I feel like if there is even a small chance of getting this game and the community that I care about out of this total free-fall, being nasty will take a small chance down to pretty much zero.
Do I blame the customer base? No, ultimately the decision is down to the company. That said, maybe the "seed" of customer service could do with a little Miracle-Gro, so I'm going to throw a bit of that in the mix. Maybe it won't take. Or maybe it will. But I will know even if just for myself that I tried.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
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I'm not asking for free stuff. I'm asking for an apology and for some effort to fix the big problems we keep telling them about (namely crafting and levelling grind).
I'll admit, I was not aware of this - the replies in the actual apology thread seemed overwhelmingly positive.
However, I still think that something similar would go a long way here.
except I net with the model cryptic has, they make more per customer than wow does..
its not about money, or what the company is worth.. you stand by your product and try to make it the best it can be, that is how you grow a company..
a company that has TRIBBLE poor customer service, in an industry that demands that customer service basically come first, isn't going to do well..
look at the top games out there, while I will not try to claim that they have larger player numbers, and larger profits because of customer service alone, I will say it goes a long way into helping the numbers..
blizzard, has pretty good customer service, probably the largest gaming company and most profitable out there (even after there merger)
trion, another gameing company that puts customer service first and foremost, and boom, they wipe the floor with cryptic as far as player numbers. (and they directly compete with blizzard, sto has no real competition when it comes to genre).
these are just two examples, there are others out there that have lesser customer service than these two, but much much better than cryptic, and they all do fine.. im using these two as they are a staple of how customer service should be.
both will come out and admit failure, problems, and apologize, genuinely. both you can call someone on the phone, and get assistance usually within the same day (given its not like a realease week or what not).
cryptic has nothing.. I have filed tickets, and their automated response system has completely borked the response.. I say I need help with a. they send me how to fix b.. and that is after a solid week of waiting for a response.. (and im lucky if its only a week).
I have two tickets out there, that are well past a month and a half since I put them in, they are all still in open status, and not responded to. I have no real option of calling anyone to get direct help from. and ingame gm support is a laughable joke.
yes, its true everygame has bugs, but sto is a large exception. sure, wow and trion have bugs when they launch stuff, but they also fix them pretty quick.. if their servers go down, it doesn't take a day to get them back up. it takes a few hours.. trion even throws little apologies in their patch notes when they release info on bug fixes.. it is not uncommon to see "hey, sorry, we goofed, that power was supposed to do x, and not y. heres the fix, enjoy". when I see that, I feel as if they care..
its not suprising that these are two of the larger mmos, while sto struggles to stay middle to lower end of the pack. and then, when I hear comments like jam jams comments when he first started, where he made fun of star trek fans (something to do with abe Lincoln and blah blah blah, but yeah, that incited a huge forum war, and was pretty much when the devs went silent) or gecko telling us why we wont see wolf 359 ships (because he doesn't like them), or calling the player base babies and what not, you can really see where a lot of the rage, and non support for the game comes from.
Because speaking as someone who for work was in this position, you don't treat your stakeholders as an undifferentiated mob, and you recognize that you're apologizing to "That nice person who's always supported us who we let down" while you're also expecting and going to ignore "The troll in the corner who will snap and whine anyway".
Avoiding your responsibilities to your customers with a hand-waving "Oh, not all 100% of people watching will be unwaveringly supportive" is a cowardly cop-out. It's a flimsy excuse. And it's not acceptable.
Getting announements from on high is just not the same as a sit-down with the populace, it's more of a royal edict.
What's the point? The point is being professional. The point is owning up to your mistakes. The point is trying to compensate for the damage done by your mistakes. The point is realizing that your pockets are filled with the money of the people your mistake aggravated.
The difference is Allen realizes that while they surely have quite a few a-holes in their huge community, they also have cool, good hearted and rational people. And while he knows that there's probably nothing they can do to appease the a-holes, being a-holes and all - all the other normal and rational people will apreciate an honest appology and it would mean something to them, which in fact did in this particular case with WoW.
Unlike D'Angelo who called everyone exploiters or Geko who calls everyone morons.
It may not have been much, but it was definitely better than nothing.
Also, no one is asking for free stuff - just some effort to fix the current major problems and a simple apology. That's all.
yes, in some cases, A little generosity can go a long way, it might even work in STO ... lol
... in the form of XP ... lol
That would alter the natural course of your character's path in life.
And, ya know....Prime Directive.
-Leonard Nimoy, RIP
As it's the weekend, the devs and planners are off at home ignoring the heck out of the game, I'm sure they'll look at it again on Monday and I'm also sure that they monitor the metrics closely to see what affects it's having on their bottom lines.
I do know one thing, if they were running things right, I would actually have to use my priority login from my LTS, I don't think that's ever been an issue when there hasn't been a major login bug. There is something seriously wrong, but the xp thing is fixable.
darn it! i totally forgot, I'm Klingon and it's an internal affair, I can't call for Federation Aid ...
*giggles*
2 years ago I stopped playing STO and played Mechwarrior Online for a change.
If you think STO is bad, has poor business practices, shoddy content and all that makes you angry enough to wish people's career failure or worse, don't try MW:O.
With Blizzard, the problem was stuff like server queues - people taking forever to even log into the game.
With STO, your problem is how long it takes to craft or level.
In one case, the services people subscribed for were not provided. In the other, people don't like the particular implementation of a (no subcription required) service.
You can still log into STO, play your characters, do missions and all that. The only thing you're not happy with is how fast the various progression bars in the game move, but it doesn't block you from playing the game.
WoW subscribers basically got 3 days of their subscription back due to the server problems.
STO players got lost specialization points back.
the fact the gameplay bugs subsection of the forums is rife with bugs that are not mere bugs but plainly broken mechanics and systems,
the fact that dedicated players who have invested money and more importantly, time in the game for years are playing less and less or are thinking of leaving altogether,
the fact that new players are having a pretty decent experience until they hit the level 50 - DR wall,
the fact that the queues are empty not just because they are "hard" but because more than half of them were rendered worthless of time or are bugged or have ridiculous timers,
the fact that anyone who still plays has to dedicate their time to the harvesting of mats for upgrades instead of fooling around with their alts,
the fact that anyone who still plays are more or less locked in to their specific upgraded gear set on a specific toon unless they were very rich in resources before upgrading,
the fact that PVP has had its coffin nailed shut once and for all,
the fact that the fears that all T5U ships would be rendered worthless - shortly after the money for their upgrade was spent - were realized in the triumphant release of the T6 Intrepid,
all these facts apparently mean that nobody has any reason to apologize for anything to anyone.
This place gets weirder and weirder...
And this is relevant to my post....how?
I was just answering that other player what's the point in apologizing if a part of the community still behaves like a-holes towards you. You probably can't do anything to prevent a-holes being a-holes, but you sure can establish a positive and respectfull relationship with the cool and rational people that play your game - and that goes a long way.
Don't confuse words with an apology .
D'Angelo's signature was on a bunch of words . I saw no apology there .
Not for carpet bombing with "exploiters" .
Not for shutting down a sector .
Not for toying with the ingame achievements of players based on either unreliable data or incompetent use of data .
... his "apology" amounted to "f%^k it , we have better ways to nerf y'all" ...
The actions have spoken, just as loud as the words from PWEclvrgrovelandwhatever. Translated it is "We couldn't give a ***** what you want, we'll make an avg game into a Korean Grindfest and shove it in your face like week old faeces and try to force you to eat it, then say it was your fault for not eating it..."
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."