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Attention to Geko - please read.
snipey47a
Member Posts: 485 Media Corps
Hi Geko,
Thank you for your time.
I have seen the following post from you in another thread:-
Congradulations, you got your wish. Your math is completely wrong. You win one internet!
First, before and after the patch, the SP cost per level changed every level. That is, the costs were not static from 50-55 as you mentioned. Here are the actual numbers:
Was:
Level.............SP required
50-51...........10,000
50-52...........11,000
50-53...........18,000
50-54...........28,500
50-55...........31,500
50-56...........45,000
50-57...........49,500
50-58...........48,000
50-59...........54,000
50-60...........55,500
Argala Normal rewarded: 944
Now:
Level.............SP required
50-51...........12,500
50-52...........31,820
50-53...........51,600
50-54...........81,700
50-55...........90,300
50-56...........129,000
50-57...........137,600
50-58...........141,900
50-59...........154,800
50-60...........154,800
Argala Normal now rewards: 2730
Increase in SP costs:
154,800/55,500=2.79 times more
Increase is SP rewarded from Argala:
2730/944=2.89
_______________________________________________________________________
Let me start by saying that I have never ranted about decisions Cryptic have made on these forums before. Rather, I adapted and accepted the change even if I didn't agree with them. However, from what I have just read here from someone who should know the STO system inside and out is genuinely horrifying.
Let's put aside the fact that it appears that each specialization point after you reach level 60 requires 158,000 Specialization XP.. We shall also put aside the fact that you dont appear to actual know how much XP is required to level up each level from 50-51, 51-52 etc. because your figures are grossly inaccurate and that is also genuinely horrifying.
I have a character that has just made level 51. To get to 55 requires another 311,592 points and yet you claim it is only 90k. I also have a character who would be about 10% into level 55 and to get to level 60 requires a further 689,000 points and you claim it is only 64k. So it is actually closer to 1,000,000 points required to get from 50-60 or around 850,000 points more than you playfully posted.
Good news though, Argala now pays 2730 points each time it is completed at the normal difficulty setting. That means those pesky Argala grinders will only have to do Argala 367 times to get from 50-60. Or put another way 1835 minutes which is 30.6 hours of continuously and mind-numbingly exploiting Argala. And how about each spec point after level 60 is achieved which requires 158,000 spec points? Well that will only take doing Argala 58 times or continuously doing Argala for nearly 5 unbelievably exciting hours.
And what of those who dont utilise Argala for spec XP levelling? Well after testing some normal and advanced PVEs with fleet mates, it appears the average XP earned from them is about 3,500. Well that is what is was for us 3500 isnt too far away from 2730 and when you look at the limited amount of PVEs to choose from, bearing in mind you need in excess of 300 of them just to get from 50-60, I think you have found a way to slow the grind down even more which is a feat that I did not think was possible let alone considered, developed, tested and then implemented live without someone along the way without someone saying "Ummm, are we sure this is right?"
Playful may your post have been but it suggest that the Developers of this game are patting themselves on the back because they have balanced the math (which is totally wrong if it is based on the two tables you posted) in favour of a percentage of players who use Argala to earn specialization points and/or to level. It also suggests that the players have resorted to this technique because any other way is worse than watching paint dry on your TV with the playback speed at super slo-mo. Do you Developers really think that Argala over and over and over and over and over again is how we, the community, want to spend our precious entertainment time so that we have some sense that we are actually making progress through the new levelling and specialization system?
But yes, I can understand your frustration when you see the system you designed not giving the outcome that you desired due to a percentage of the player base utilising one specific mission to hasten progression. Professional pride.. I get it. But to me your solution is like swatting an annoying fly with a thermo nuclear weapon. Yes, you killed those annoying flies buzzing around Argala but you have also killed everything else in the game.
So for the many, many numbers of players who don't level via Argala to get from 50 to 60 find that their next spec point and each and every subsequent one is going to take a ridiculously large amount of XP, what do you think they are going to do?
I think a good chunk of them will do what a good chunk of the Argala Grinders will do leave. And that is sad because many of these Argala grinders are some of the most knowledgeable people in the STO gaming universe and I fear a lot of that knowledge is going to exit stage left.
Seriously though all joking and sarcasm aside, start engaging better during development and changes with the community and especially with the ones who are experts at this game. They are your customers and you should be working with them to better your product which in-turn will benefit the entire community and therefore Cryptics profit margin.
Now stop scaring us with posts like that and fix this car crash of a mistake and soon.
Snipey47a
Thank you for your time.
I have seen the following post from you in another thread:-
Congradulations, you got your wish. Your math is completely wrong. You win one internet!
First, before and after the patch, the SP cost per level changed every level. That is, the costs were not static from 50-55 as you mentioned. Here are the actual numbers:
Was:
Level.............SP required
50-51...........10,000
50-52...........11,000
50-53...........18,000
50-54...........28,500
50-55...........31,500
50-56...........45,000
50-57...........49,500
50-58...........48,000
50-59...........54,000
50-60...........55,500
Argala Normal rewarded: 944
Now:
Level.............SP required
50-51...........12,500
50-52...........31,820
50-53...........51,600
50-54...........81,700
50-55...........90,300
50-56...........129,000
50-57...........137,600
50-58...........141,900
50-59...........154,800
50-60...........154,800
Argala Normal now rewards: 2730
Increase in SP costs:
154,800/55,500=2.79 times more
Increase is SP rewarded from Argala:
2730/944=2.89
_______________________________________________________________________
Let me start by saying that I have never ranted about decisions Cryptic have made on these forums before. Rather, I adapted and accepted the change even if I didn't agree with them. However, from what I have just read here from someone who should know the STO system inside and out is genuinely horrifying.
Let's put aside the fact that it appears that each specialization point after you reach level 60 requires 158,000 Specialization XP.. We shall also put aside the fact that you dont appear to actual know how much XP is required to level up each level from 50-51, 51-52 etc. because your figures are grossly inaccurate and that is also genuinely horrifying.
I have a character that has just made level 51. To get to 55 requires another 311,592 points and yet you claim it is only 90k. I also have a character who would be about 10% into level 55 and to get to level 60 requires a further 689,000 points and you claim it is only 64k. So it is actually closer to 1,000,000 points required to get from 50-60 or around 850,000 points more than you playfully posted.
Good news though, Argala now pays 2730 points each time it is completed at the normal difficulty setting. That means those pesky Argala grinders will only have to do Argala 367 times to get from 50-60. Or put another way 1835 minutes which is 30.6 hours of continuously and mind-numbingly exploiting Argala. And how about each spec point after level 60 is achieved which requires 158,000 spec points? Well that will only take doing Argala 58 times or continuously doing Argala for nearly 5 unbelievably exciting hours.
And what of those who dont utilise Argala for spec XP levelling? Well after testing some normal and advanced PVEs with fleet mates, it appears the average XP earned from them is about 3,500. Well that is what is was for us 3500 isnt too far away from 2730 and when you look at the limited amount of PVEs to choose from, bearing in mind you need in excess of 300 of them just to get from 50-60, I think you have found a way to slow the grind down even more which is a feat that I did not think was possible let alone considered, developed, tested and then implemented live without someone along the way without someone saying "Ummm, are we sure this is right?"
Playful may your post have been but it suggest that the Developers of this game are patting themselves on the back because they have balanced the math (which is totally wrong if it is based on the two tables you posted) in favour of a percentage of players who use Argala to earn specialization points and/or to level. It also suggests that the players have resorted to this technique because any other way is worse than watching paint dry on your TV with the playback speed at super slo-mo. Do you Developers really think that Argala over and over and over and over and over again is how we, the community, want to spend our precious entertainment time so that we have some sense that we are actually making progress through the new levelling and specialization system?
But yes, I can understand your frustration when you see the system you designed not giving the outcome that you desired due to a percentage of the player base utilising one specific mission to hasten progression. Professional pride.. I get it. But to me your solution is like swatting an annoying fly with a thermo nuclear weapon. Yes, you killed those annoying flies buzzing around Argala but you have also killed everything else in the game.
So for the many, many numbers of players who don't level via Argala to get from 50 to 60 find that their next spec point and each and every subsequent one is going to take a ridiculously large amount of XP, what do you think they are going to do?
I think a good chunk of them will do what a good chunk of the Argala Grinders will do leave. And that is sad because many of these Argala grinders are some of the most knowledgeable people in the STO gaming universe and I fear a lot of that knowledge is going to exit stage left.
Seriously though all joking and sarcasm aside, start engaging better during development and changes with the community and especially with the ones who are experts at this game. They are your customers and you should be working with them to better your product which in-turn will benefit the entire community and therefore Cryptics profit margin.
Now stop scaring us with posts like that and fix this car crash of a mistake and soon.
Snipey47a
Post edited by Unknown User on
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This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Was with you on those runs - and I know how long it was taking to get spec points prior to last night's patch. The alleged rewards are not commensurate with the actual leveling requirements.
Here's what Undine Infilitration Elite yielded:
[5:03] [System] [NumericReceived] You received 1,204 Specialization Experience
[5:03] [System] [NumericReceived] You received 1,206 Expertise
For an Elite mission.
Please check your numbers, Geko. What you're saying and what players are seeing are two totally different things.
/10char
Would you recommend STO to a friend?
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Because some of us actually want a hope in hell of levelling our alts.
Yep.
Bug Hunt Elite, 1238 XP, and that's with my veteran bonus (5%) and a consultant (3%). Plus another 1021 from killing bugs, for a total of 2259.
2259 from an "Elite" mission.
Some people play the game that way. There is nothing wrong with it because that is how they personally enjoy it.
The game itself is a grind though for dil, rep, ec, gear, etc. Being maxed out probably makes its easier to enjoy in that respect.
Counter question: Why do you feel it should take longer?
It's in most humans nature to want to be as good as they can be at every thing they do. If we didn't have this engrained in us we'd probably still be living in caves.
And here it simply shouldn't matter if you can (like pre DR) go from 0-50 in a weeks time, if you like the game, make friends, you'll play just as much or more than a person who is looking at years grind just to be competitive. And lets face it, there is absolutely nothing in this game to keep a person interested for a year while they claw their way to top when there are soo many other games that will provide that satisfaction in a fraction of the time.
TL/DR
Most people want to be the best. If there's a ladder to the top people will climb it. Again it's in most human beings nature.
Would you recommend STO to a friend?
I've been here since launch, much of that time has been spent in game, with a few breaks here and there, the math lies, whats on paper in this game lies, and half of it does not even work as intended.
Yet they have plenty of time to work on things that will make them more money of course. That's the name of the game here, that's what I was laughed off these forums for stating before DR launched, that they are in this for profit, not for players.
Everything they have done over the course of the last few years is all about more money, time gates, lock boxes, dil, and making the player base feel that if they do not take the easy way and pay they will be left behind. While it may not be pure pay to win the amount of time it would take to not pay, and be on a even playing field is like walking to the moon instead of taking a rocket there, and it is only going to get worse as it has for the last few years.
This is not a doom post, I play, and I will keep playing because I accept this for what it is and what its been turned into.
People asked for Elite and they gave it to them, hell I was one that was asking, yet its killed most of the que's. I was told on these very forums I HAVE to be Elite to play the elites, I have, and with others have beaten them, doesn't make me feel elite, makes me feel like I wasted my time and energy because its not elite, its a dps race and that's all it will ever be. A ten year old with enough cash and a little time looking at cookie cutter builds could do it, that's not elite, its another time gate, that's all.
The age of having to think your way through missions is over. The age of really tinkering with builds to get something special is over. They want time, and your money, lots of your money, and anything that comes before that is bad for business.
End of line.....
I agree with some of what you say here. Yes, Cryptic is a business and making money is what businesses do. They need it to survive. Therefore using that fact as a negative on its own would be like yelling at people for breathing air. We need to get over that fact and get over it quickly because businesses that don't make money go... a fact of life.
I sort of touched on the issue in my original post. Cryptic are making a product that we consume but they aren't developing that product in collaboration with their customers to ensure as much success & satisfaction for all involved. Offering people access to Tribble & Redshirt isn't collaboration. Being able to fiddle with the content, upload crash data and if the player is feeling up to it, report the issue on the forum is too unstructured for such a complex system that STO is.
If Cryptic were savy they would engage the customer (us), identify key players from all parts of the game and have them involved during all stages of new content development and other major system upgrades and changes. Obviously, the dev decision will be final but being engaged in that sort of process will yield them perspective from the end-user viewpoint.
The part of your post I disagree with is the DPS race part. Any high DPSer will tell you that simply slapping on Epic gear won't make you a DPS God. Gear is only half the equation. Knowing how to fly the ship is equally important.
Doffing moslty and running an ISA and CCa here and there. But can only do that so many times in a day. Tried to play other ques but started falling asleep waiting for something different to start.
And I still only have 1 power cell when I need how many to gear up with Delta? At least it felt like progress slowly getting new Spec points but I got nowhere today. lol.
A week ago I was thinking of starting a 5th toon. now Im thinking Ill stick with one until/if they get this all sorted out.
STO is a free game that means it has to target ppl with addiction problems in order to stay alive. So the rest of us we are here to play with those who open their wallet so largely that makes this game free:))
Im like 90% sure they typoed and meant to say 50-51,51-52,... and so on, as even the previous exp boosts make no sense. It never took 1000 exp to level from 59-60, thats ludicrous. As such it doesnt seem to of changed that much, you still had to run argala that many times to level before, infact by my calculation you had to run it 371.8 times (not counting any exp you get from kills, which is probably more than double the final box exp). I cant say if this change is good or bad, but their maths seems to be sound, even if their notation is off.
Craptic needs to up there game and start doing a good amount of testing on the test server and tell the truth in there posts because plays are not all as daft as they seem to think they are.
Too true. This game is no longer alt friendly.
To the OP. Beautifully and succinctly put.
if it only would take weeks to max all my toons I would be fine
it would take MONTH
Now:
Level.............SP required
01-50...........366,000
50-51...........31,820
51-52...........51,600
52-53...........81,700
53-54...........90,300
54-55...........129,000 (total up to here: 750,420, shown @ 55 in game)
55-56...........137,600
56-57...........141,900
57-58...........154,800
58-59...........154,800
59-60...........159,100 (total up to here: 1,498,620, shown @ 60 in game)
Just like a good little Ferenghi, all he cares about is profit.
The dudes a joke...
D,
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Please keep the QQ to a minimum.
>>>PUNISH THE FEDs<<<
>>>Positive Feedback from a PvE HERO<<<
Because for some of us, its the journey, not the goal.
Its Star Trek. Some of us treat it like a TV series.
Every login is a new episode.
Every level is a milestone.
We look forward to logging in on 'game night' with our friends and doing a few STFs
These days everyone acts like its some sort of race to get to the 'finish line' so they can start the process over again. Its like they are just collecting characters like they are Pok
To provide another perspective, which is my own, I see PvE in mmorpgs as a puzzle to solve, and at some point I've reached the solution and it becomes pure tedium that the game requires X repetitions before I can attain a goal for which I feel there is a trivial solution (repeat sequence 300, 3000, or even 300,000 times is, to me, a trivial solution if the thing being repeated is trivial, so the additional time spent is annoyance or even intolerable tedium if too great). Therefore, endless repetition, to me, is an annoying grind; one which I've learned to tolerate, because I know that companies won't design their game specifically for me.
In short, there are billions of people out there that aren't you, and there's nothing wrong with that. Heck, some of them even play games with you. Pretty cool, huh?
Playing the Delta Rising storyline IS like watching a TV series. A TV series where you have to wait 6 months for each episode, and there's a 50/50 chance that the episode will be exactly the same boring scene repeated 5 times over. And then they make you watch other, more boring TV series that you've watched 100 times before so you can qualify to watch the next new episode.
Does that sound like something you'd actually watch?
Free Tibet!
You exaggerate.
Between story missions, we didn't just grind on patrols.
Some of us teamed up to do some together, but we also ran STFs (mostly on normal at first due to the sudden change in mob hit points)
Leveling between missions didn't seem to be much of a problem.
Many of the patrol missions featured direct references from Voyager episodes. which we enjoyed. (when I saw the 2 Android races from VOY: Prototype I was like OH YEAH!)
I found myself logging into netflix later in the evening so I could watch the corresponding episode.
I'm not saying you are wrong and I'm not saying Cryptic hasn't made mistakes. I'm saying not everyone is upset with the expansion and level progression.
Maybe its a generation thing. The people in my group have all played other MMOs together (most of us know each other from pre-Abyssea FFXI) We have all played older MMOs and we all have played (or still are playing) tabletop RPG games.
And we all like Star Trek (although some of us do not like the JJ Abrams version)
A counter counter question then.
Say we had the faster levelling lots of people want, what's to stop you playing like you already do, and describe above?
Think of it like a Motorway. There's the fast lane right there, but if you want to trundle along in lane 1 at 40mph you can. But some people want to be there now, for them they can use lane 4.
You're all covering the same miles, just a different speeds, so why are you arguing for everyone to be forced to play your way? Its easier to slow yourself down than speed yourself up is my badly made point.
Me Personally, I feel the game is taking to long to progress. Unless your an ultra hardcore player with several hundred million EC and a stock of Dil you don't make any headway. And when it reaches that point you start to wonder if the time investment is worth it...
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=20808451&postcount=575
That does not include the fact that argala was never interesting because of the rewards in the end, but because of npc kills. Thus any comparison between the numbers before and after have to include those to be of any real value.
Its not only about how you do your math its about what you calculating and whether or not its the right formula/correct numbers you are using.
Actually, slowing down, isn't easier.
If you level just by finishing a mission, you can't finish the mission and do STFs and patrols with your friends without faster progression.
While XP buffs and multiple STFs can speed up XP gain
Cryptic can sell XP buffs (hopeful they will make better ones for the folks who want to use them because the current ones are very poor) Not many people would buy a XP nerf.
Using your Speedway analogy, Cryptic set the Speed limit on the track. If you want to use the fast lane, buy an XP boost. Otherwise, they want you going the speed limit so they can add more track for you to race on.
This is not true. A member of our group just returned after not playing for a year. He chose not to use his old character and opted to roll a new one.
He leveled from 1 to 53 in less than a week. He wasn't on all the time because he has a full-time job and a family. He didnt ask for help from anyone. He didnt need any EC or Dill outside of what he earned.
It wasn't perfect by any stretch, but it wasn't the detriment you described.
This exactly.
I've only got 2 of 40 leveled to 60 and for ME .... that says something.
It's not that I can't ... It's that I don't want to.
Content is fun. The grind isn't.
The bulk of my other alt-a-holic fleetmates are the exact same.
The sad truth is that easier leveling of alts would = more money from us to Cryptic as we'd be spending more on ship upgrades, etc.
U.S.S. Maelstrom, NCC-71417 (Constitution III-class/flagship) --- Fleet Admiral Hauk' --|-- Dahar Master Hauk --- I.K.S. qu'In 'an bortaS (D7-class / flagship)
Amazing that the money hungry people at Cryptic seem to have overlooked this isn't it?
Would you recommend STO to a friend?