Any word (devs ) on this yet? I really want to buy fleet AP 3x [dmg] 1x [CtD] instead of my 2x [acc]/2x [dmg] because I believe they'll be a dps upgrade. But I'd like to know for sure if dmg will be buffed to be in the same league as the other mods. I don't want to spend this much dil on new beams only to find out later you decided not to go over the [dmg] mod.
The only thing I know about Accuracy is the formula posted by adjudicatorhawk. According to adjudicatorhawk's posted formula, one of you is mistaken, unless I'm reading the formula completely wrong.
As Acc increases (and Difference increases as a result), chance to hit increases from Neutral towards 2* Neutral asymptotically. Its a classic diminishing returns formula. And since offense is judged based on damage output which is directly proportional to hit chance, that's a true diminishing return. Would you like to take a swing at explaining your statement, since it appears to be inconsistent with the math.
I may be forced to appeal to higher authority.
Thissler's point is that a not-Escort ship at full throttle can have a Defense of around 80%. Escorts, Raptors, and Raiders receive a little extra Defense on top of that, and the Corvette has an even higher passive defense modifier. Your maximum base accuracy (before items, but including the Accuracy trait) is about 28%. The old paradigm, [Acc]x3 weapons, would bring that up to 58%.
You can currently beat Defense against not-Escorts by jacking up your accuracy, by using UR [Acc]x4 beams and the Nukara Particle Converter along with the Counter-Command deflector, but even that puts you at only ~83% vs the not-Escort's 80%. If the opponent invested in the Counter-Command or Aegis engine, or is flying an Escort, then their Defense will still be higher.
PvE players, mostly shooting at slow-moving ships that don't have 80% Defense, are able to exceed the benefit from Accuracy, so they switch to CrtD weapons to maximize their critical damage, relying on their other item slots to maximize their Critical Chance. PvPers who use things like Tractor Beam or Gravity Well to stop their enemies cold are also advised to follow this route.
Thissler's point is that a not-Escort ship at full throttle can have a Defense of around 80%. Escorts, Raptors, and Raiders receive a little extra Defense on top of that, and the Corvette has an even higher passive defense modifier. Your maximum base accuracy (before items, but including the Accuracy trait) is about 28%. The old paradigm, [Acc]x3 weapons, would bring that up to 58%.
You can currently beat Defense against not-Escorts by jacking up your accuracy, by using UR [Acc]x4 beams and the Nukara Particle Converter along with the Counter-Command deflector, but even that puts you at only ~83% vs the not-Escort's 80%. If the opponent invested in the Counter-Command or Aegis engine, or is flying an Escort, then their Defense will still be higher.
PvE players, mostly shooting at slow-moving ships that don't have 80% Defense, are able to exceed the benefit from Accuracy, so they switch to CrtD weapons to maximize their critical damage, relying on their other item slots to maximize their Critical Chance. PvPers who use things like Tractor Beam or Gravity Well to stop their enemies cold are also advised to follow this route.
Its highly unlikely that was his point, since he said, and I quoted:
Regardless of the defense of the target with the exception being that defense is greater than accuracy any incremental accuracy increase will be of greater benefit than previous increments.
In either case, what sort of defense you're likely to be facing has some hypothetical impact on the kinds of weapons you might consider optimal, assuming you're carrying around all possible options and can make that choice, but the statement "each stack has a higher benefit than the previous" isn't useful because unless you're deeply in the hole on defense, the statement isn't true. The only time it is true appears to be when you're so far in the hole that Acc is also numerically immaterial.
It seems to me that the best route would be for Dmg to boost weapon rate of fire. Not as a proc like Rapid but as a passive, stacking boost to weapon rate of fire.
snip
Or Dmg could boost +weapons power/ +weapons power cap as this affects all weapons (obviously this wouldnt work for torps where rate of fire actually would be more suitable)
Or Dmg could boost +weapons power/ +weapons power cap as this affects all weapons (obviously this wouldnt work for torps where rate of fire actually would be more suitable)
Since +DMG was already stated to become a global damage buff this may all be moot. But given the problematic nature of global weapons power buffs and the fact that it doesn't affect torps, something that buffs individual powers but with an effect that makes it a viable trade to Acc would seem to be a better choice. I wonder if that could be done by making Dmg be a buff to weapon damage as it currently is, but with the added effect of enhanced bleedthrough. In effect, the overall effect of +Dmg would be that above the base damage of the attack, the attack did bonus damage that penetrated shields.
Bump, lets let this thread get out of sight. For someone running 3x dmg fleet beams I'm worried this fix/change to the dmg mod may take ages. Please make it a priority to review.
Well perhaps we should consider making [PvP Dmg] something like a [CritX] mod, where it's a [Dmg] mod + an additional 1/2 [Dmg] mod vs. people.
In the meantime, just give DMG a buff for the extra damage and it should be fine.
That said, about the idea of making [Dmg] more of a global mod, how would we adjust it for ground weps? Would it no affect kit powers and the like as well?
I don't want to upgrade my fleet beams because they are so much worse compared to any beam with 4x crit severity on them.
It's really bad when any weapon that isnt crtDx4 isn't worth the investment right now.
Yeah i dont want to invest into weapons till i know what will change and at least kinda how.
Buying weapons, crafting weapons and upgrading weapons is kinda the most expensive thing in sto, so dear dev please give us something to work with.
Using SWD, I'm totally for knowing if something is going to happen to this mod. At the same time, I'm not getting rid of my KCB no matter what, so upgrading it is happening.
Its a classic diminishing returns formula. And since offense is judged based on damage output which is directly proportional to hit chance, that's a true diminishing return. Would you like to take a swing at explaining your statement, since it appears to be inconsistent with the math.
I may be forced to appeal to higher authority.
It diminishes. Just not in that direction. Actually if you look at the quote from Adjudicator, there is a mistake. He should proofread. Besides the point. Just make yourself a little spreadsheet, run some numbers. And you'll see it.
Acc never goes bad. It gets better and better faster and faster.
Defense goes bad quickly. It gets worse and worse...faster and faster.
Here. What's this even mean?
but the statement "each stack has a higher benefit than the previous" isn't useful because unless you're deeply in the hole on defense, the statement isn't true.
Unless you're deeply in the hole on defense? Don't bother trying to explain that.
Understand the parameters I'm using here. Anytime that Defense is Greater than Accuracy, as you add Accuracy each additional increment of Accuracy yields greater results than the previous increments.
Yes it's diminishing returns. But in the OTHER direction. Like resistances. Stack as many consoles as you wish. The returns diminish. Each additional stack of rating yields LESS actual resistance. But as you remove rating, each subtracted stack of rating removes more actual resistance.
Seriously, over the entire course of STO the actual in game numbers that could be achieved, the actual real world experiences of players have nothing to do with your post. Like this bit here.
The only time it is true appears to be when you're so far in the hole that Acc is also numerically immaterial.
Uhhh...and that happens when?
Anyway damage as it is can't really be fixed. Just changed to something different. Being removed as a weapon mod seems simplest.
Have to say that having talked with the devs at this years Star Trek convention in Las Vegas that they are actually working on balancing the tags. All tags should be approximately equal to each other. Right now Acc is king and DMG is the ugly stepchild. They know this and are working to fix it. Also Acc bleeding into CrtD doesn't make any sense. It should bleed into CrtH first and then CrtD. Dmg mods add the same damage increase as going up a level in mark OR going up a level in rarity. The thing is when we could only get a max Crit chance of something like 10% then DMG ruled because your DPS increase from the others was small in comparison. Now that is reversed with people like me being able to hit up to 33% crit chance with the right epic universal consoles. I think they would do very good to just make all mods of ACC DMG CrtH and CrtD be like the Ac/Dm mod. Convert all current DmG mods into Ac/Dm and make the the others CH/Dm and CD/Dm. That would solve it right there.
The impact of damage mods currently decreases relative to a weapon's overall output as the weapon goes up in level. This, at least, I plan to address. I'm currently doing a balance pass on all weapon mods internally, so I hope to fix the disparities between the different mods and just make them equally impactful but in different ways.
Crit severity depends heavily on actually criting, first off. Each crit severity addition (20%) comes out to a 4% damage boost if you have a crit rating of 20%. Much less if you don't focus on crit.
How much does each DMG mod add to a weapon? I'm not in game right now, but I'm curious. For example, compare a Mark XII fleet weapon with DMG to one that doesn't, and you should be able to see what the % of extra damage is added per single DMG mod.
If I am not mistaken, each damage mod adds 2 to the damage on a Mark XII beam, from 190 to 192. That's roughly a 1% boost in damage.
That's about equivalent to a 2% crit increase (remember that base critting add 50% extra damage). So that's a good tradeoff. Remember, as someone mentioned earlier, DMG also gets boosted when you crit.
In the end, it comes down to whether or not you prefer spiky damage or steady damage.
LATER EDIT: I take it back. I thought Dmg was a percentile value. It's not. It seems to be a fixed amount. That's no bueno.
Comments
sig
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/5451/om71.jpg
It is a peculiar phenomenon that we can imagine events that defy the laws of the universe.
Thissler's point is that a not-Escort ship at full throttle can have a Defense of around 80%. Escorts, Raptors, and Raiders receive a little extra Defense on top of that, and the Corvette has an even higher passive defense modifier. Your maximum base accuracy (before items, but including the Accuracy trait) is about 28%. The old paradigm, [Acc]x3 weapons, would bring that up to 58%.
You can currently beat Defense against not-Escorts by jacking up your accuracy, by using UR [Acc]x4 beams and the Nukara Particle Converter along with the Counter-Command deflector, but even that puts you at only ~83% vs the not-Escort's 80%. If the opponent invested in the Counter-Command or Aegis engine, or is flying an Escort, then their Defense will still be higher.
PvE players, mostly shooting at slow-moving ships that don't have 80% Defense, are able to exceed the benefit from Accuracy, so they switch to CrtD weapons to maximize their critical damage, relying on their other item slots to maximize their Critical Chance. PvPers who use things like Tractor Beam or Gravity Well to stop their enemies cold are also advised to follow this route.
Its highly unlikely that was his point, since he said, and I quoted:
In either case, what sort of defense you're likely to be facing has some hypothetical impact on the kinds of weapons you might consider optimal, assuming you're carrying around all possible options and can make that choice, but the statement "each stack has a higher benefit than the previous" isn't useful because unless you're deeply in the hole on defense, the statement isn't true. The only time it is true appears to be when you're so far in the hole that Acc is also numerically immaterial.
Or Dmg could boost +weapons power/ +weapons power cap as this affects all weapons (obviously this wouldnt work for torps where rate of fire actually would be more suitable)
...#LLAP...
Since +DMG was already stated to become a global damage buff this may all be moot. But given the problematic nature of global weapons power buffs and the fact that it doesn't affect torps, something that buffs individual powers but with an effect that makes it a viable trade to Acc would seem to be a better choice. I wonder if that could be done by making Dmg be a buff to weapon damage as it currently is, but with the added effect of enhanced bleedthrough. In effect, the overall effect of +Dmg would be that above the base damage of the attack, the attack did bonus damage that penetrated shields.
sig
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/5451/om71.jpg
It is a peculiar phenomenon that we can imagine events that defy the laws of the universe.
In the meantime, just give DMG a buff for the extra damage and it should be fine.
That said, about the idea of making [Dmg] more of a global mod, how would we adjust it for ground weps? Would it no affect kit powers and the like as well?
I don't want to upgrade my fleet beams because they are so much worse compared to any beam with 4x crit severity on them.
It's really bad when any weapon that isnt crtDx4 isn't worth the investment right now.
sig
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/5451/om71.jpg
It is a peculiar phenomenon that we can imagine events that defy the laws of the universe.
Yeah i dont want to invest into weapons till i know what will change and at least kinda how.
Buying weapons, crafting weapons and upgrading weapons is kinda the most expensive thing in sto, so dear dev please give us something to work with.
It diminishes. Just not in that direction. Actually if you look at the quote from Adjudicator, there is a mistake. He should proofread. Besides the point. Just make yourself a little spreadsheet, run some numbers. And you'll see it.
Acc never goes bad. It gets better and better faster and faster.
Defense goes bad quickly. It gets worse and worse...faster and faster.
Here. What's this even mean?
but the statement "each stack has a higher benefit than the previous" isn't useful because unless you're deeply in the hole on defense, the statement isn't true.
Unless you're deeply in the hole on defense? Don't bother trying to explain that.
Understand the parameters I'm using here. Anytime that Defense is Greater than Accuracy, as you add Accuracy each additional increment of Accuracy yields greater results than the previous increments.
Yes it's diminishing returns. But in the OTHER direction. Like resistances. Stack as many consoles as you wish. The returns diminish. Each additional stack of rating yields LESS actual resistance. But as you remove rating, each subtracted stack of rating removes more actual resistance.
Seriously, over the entire course of STO the actual in game numbers that could be achieved, the actual real world experiences of players have nothing to do with your post. Like this bit here.
The only time it is true appears to be when you're so far in the hole that Acc is also numerically immaterial.
Uhhh...and that happens when?
Anyway damage as it is can't really be fixed. Just changed to something different. Being removed as a weapon mod seems simplest.
Will you make sure, that in a high dmg stf group, the dmg mod will be kinda on par
with crtd and pen?
And if so, can we expect the change to still happen this year maybe?
can u tells when we will see it on tribble? ty
1 year later..
sig
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/5451/om71.jpg
It is a peculiar phenomenon that we can imagine events that defy the laws of the universe.
Crit severity depends heavily on actually criting, first off. Each crit severity addition (20%) comes out to a 4% damage boost if you have a crit rating of 20%. Much less if you don't focus on crit.
How much does each DMG mod add to a weapon? I'm not in game right now, but I'm curious. For example, compare a Mark XII fleet weapon with DMG to one that doesn't, and you should be able to see what the % of extra damage is added per single DMG mod.
That's about equivalent to a 2% crit increase (remember that base critting add 50% extra damage). So that's a good tradeoff. Remember, as someone mentioned earlier, DMG also gets boosted when you crit.
In the end, it comes down to whether or not you prefer spiky damage or steady damage.
LATER EDIT: I take it back. I thought Dmg was a percentile value. It's not. It seems to be a fixed amount. That's no bueno.