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XP grind is ridiculous
mintyfresh05
Member Posts: 10 Arc User
I think the whole scalling XP and the amount required to the amount given is unrealistic. I get that the skill cap hasn't moved for some time and people should have something to work towards but running the numbers it seems like a bad joke.
Each level is about 52,200 skill points, you need 10 of these to get to 60. Then there are 60 specializations, so that's 70 levels you need!
52,200 x 70 = 3,654,000....wow
Now lets talk rewards an advanced space stf will give around 2000 xp, some patrols 5000 xp. But lets go ith the Advanced stf what most people are doing 1 because they cant get to level 60, 2 because the xp boosted by elite compared to advanced is not worth it with stupidly high resistant shields on the ships and the amount of time to kill them
That means you would need to run infected space 1827 times.........
Ok thats not so bad is it? Well for all of you that have 10 alts thats now 18,270 times.....
10 stfs a day would still take you 1827 days excluding missions. Thats about 5 years.......
For most casual players who work have a family or just would like to see the sun at least once a week this is too much.
I know MMOs need a grind but these figures need looking at, no wonder people took advantage of the patrol missions exploit, maybe they have some other stuff they need to do in the next 5 years.
Each level is about 52,200 skill points, you need 10 of these to get to 60. Then there are 60 specializations, so that's 70 levels you need!
52,200 x 70 = 3,654,000....wow
Now lets talk rewards an advanced space stf will give around 2000 xp, some patrols 5000 xp. But lets go ith the Advanced stf what most people are doing 1 because they cant get to level 60, 2 because the xp boosted by elite compared to advanced is not worth it with stupidly high resistant shields on the ships and the amount of time to kill them
That means you would need to run infected space 1827 times.........
Ok thats not so bad is it? Well for all of you that have 10 alts thats now 18,270 times.....
10 stfs a day would still take you 1827 days excluding missions. Thats about 5 years.......
For most casual players who work have a family or just would like to see the sun at least once a week this is too much.
I know MMOs need a grind but these figures need looking at, no wonder people took advantage of the patrol missions exploit, maybe they have some other stuff they need to do in the next 5 years.
Post edited by mintyfresh05 on
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All you need to do is play. Plus their will be experience bonus weekends.
Don't burn yourself out.
If you are looking for something to do just come to the messageboards and complain that their is nothing to do.
Having said that, it suggests that the old "too fast to level up" hasn't changed, till you hit Level 50 at least. So this may not affect new players who simply won't get anywhere near this problem, or will at least level up with the problem in existence.
I there we have two main problems interacting here:
1. The historically-created (by Cryptic) expectation that leveling up (rep grinds too) includes maxing out
2. The XP nerf meaning that very few (or maybe no) people will ever achieve maxing out
Regrettably for Cryptic, the solution as players to this situation is obvious: don't bother to try to max out. Shift to Normal, and make normal work (even if it means we do what the low-DPS chan did and actually self-nerf our equipment).
It does mean that STO becomes much more about casual play, hanging out with Star Trek fans, doing the occasional Foundry mission, and then going off and doing something else.
At least, that's my "Plan B" approach to this situation if Cryptic don't come to their senses.
That's an oxymoron..you have to grind to "play".
I sympathize with the OP since this game has come to a virtual crawl and XP leveling is like a second job...where's the JOY on that one?
I believe you can buy JOY at the C store.
STO is more story driven, but there's not enough to level us to be able to continue the story, forcing us into repeatable content. Now if they made ALL of the patrols repeatable, including the original ones in Serius block and others... then MAYBE we might have enough if they bump up the XP gain a bit. But rignt now as far as I know the only patrols that are repeatable are Tau Dewa and Delta Quadrant.
BTW... Nurse Joy is only on a version of Earth populated by Pokemon, and her family is freakishly HUGE. A Joy in every town in every region.
Must you grind all of the Specialisation Points right away?
This is just another instant-gratification thread...
There is nothing that requires you grind all 70 Spec Points right now... There is nothing stopping you doing this over an extended period, through general game-play (STF's and Doffing etc) and as new seasonal episodes, and special events are released...
If you absolutely, positively must have it all now, then yes, you had better be prepared to be running patrols until your eyes bleed, otherwise, just let it happen, as it happens...
your calculations are slightly off, 10 of those specializations you get levelling from 50 to 60 so you require a further 50 levels to gain all 60 points.
But i agree with your post it is an insane amount of grinding and is probably worse than WoW now
The XP grind must slow enough for the above to have any perceived value. Think about that for a second.
That way you can level normally, get a taster of specialisations with the ten that come with it then worry about a hard grind for the remainder.
Leveling this way I only work on one character so have no need to buy things for the others that are stuck at 50 for the forseeable future.
Tbh, I'd love to see some sort of normalization of the XP gain across some of these places. If we're meant to grind it out super slowly over many months (as they obviously intend the "average" player to do), then it is obviously extremely stupid to run a good many of the STF's, as you will make next to no progress.
It's one of the many things I think is a real letdown in this "expansion"... if they had done the "Moar Levelz" thing a few months ago and said "You'll need to hit DR with at least level 56" then we would have been forewarned but noooo...
And for those of us who are only interested in the story (which is thinned out by patrol missions and the "not connected to DR, just quickly lobbing off loose ends" Mindscape mission) then the six (?) missions left interspersed with massive amount of grind is a serious, game-breaking disappointment.
Shame on us players for wanting to access some of the things the new content brings with it. It's true that this system is built for the long haul, but how do we get to the end of that haul?
Given how large the xp requirement is per level, how low the xp rewards are in relation to this, and how few options we have to gain said xp, you are forced to repeat content simply because there is nothing else to do. We have this long term and worthwhile goal of getting the specialisation points, but in order to do this, we must repeat the extremely limited content over and over and over. More content will come, for sure, but unless it is meaningful and varied, we'll still be forced to repeat the same few missions dozens, even hundreds of times (STFs obviously hundreds).
It was a great thing adding a deeper player customisation system, but there has to be gameplay to support it, otherwise it becomes a passive, and punishing, grind.
And from the looks of it, you probably still can. This problem doesn't mean the whole game takes longer, just the last piece. So Cryptic is still setting up the expectation that everything can be maxed out in a season (yes, they created this expectation with Reputation), and then at the last run (Specialization) saying "Oh really, what gave you that idea?"
Or by the fact that there are tons of missions you could use for leveling to 50, you could play different ones on different characters for example. DR provides no real leveling path whatsoever, which is very disappointing for some people.
Most people who are complaining have had 50s for a while, and have had gone through a lot of the level 50 content while at 50. A new character would be doing a lot of that previous level 50 content and still be leveling up.
The other side is that we are running a lot less Advanced PvE queues right now, due to the difficulty and reward changes made. People didn't have a problem grinding them before, or at least didn't complain so much about it. If we were playing those queues as often as we used to, the grind to 60 wouldn't feel like a grind at all.
Of course, anyone who thinks they have to grind every Specialization point is missing the point of the Specialization system. They're going to keep adding Specializations in the future, so trying to Pokemon Specializations gets ridiculous in the future. Instead, players should pick out what interests them most and plan for what they want. You don't need many Specialization points to get the majority of what you want. The rest is just there to fill in 'cause you can, and getting upset at that is something I can't fault the devs for at all.
They could have just given a skill tree cap so you can't have all the Specializations, but they're letting us have them all if we want to put in the effort. Pretty much every other MMO puts a cap on skill trees, it's rare to find one that lets you keep on going for as long as you want until you're either happy or full.
Approach Specializations like you would a skill tree in another MMO: plan things out, get what you need from each level and move on. After you have what you want, you can just play casual and get the rest at a relaxed pace.
My personal goal was getting Rock 'n' Roll as soon as I could. I did. I'm happy. Now, I'm working on Intelligence. I've so far spent 8 Specialization points, and I'm happy with my picks. What this Specialization system allows us to do is to not be afraid of making mistakes in choices. Level up again and you can get another skill that you might like better. It's a good thing. Anyone thinking they must get every Specialization point is, well, missing the point.
I can't really understand why people try to frown upon players wanting to unlock content Cryptic put into the game to be unlocked. It's good for you that you got what you wanted, but would I be missing the point if I wanted something one point further in than you? What about 5? How many points in does a player have to go before they're doing it wrong?
Do you think Cryptic added this system so players would not care about it or want to use it? Your post makes a lot of good points, like comparing it to skill tress from other games, but unlike other games, the apples on this tree are so darn hard to reach that you might as well forget they exist, unless you get into the grind.
Already all dealt with and picked apart.
Raising the level cap in this way means the player base which isn't interested in "more levels" (yes we exist) is now left with vendor-trash equipment which we would need to completely regrind. The problem is not Just the regrind (which we're not interested in) but also the massive cost (and I used to spend $100 a month on this game so saying "Too much!" is something) means it's not really a great release.
You do not want to make established players who feel like they've "made it" feel like newbies. I've already essentially walked from my toons, all nine of them. Whether I go back depends on whether this situation is reversed to some extent.
Cryptic has created a situation with every other advancement system that it is possible for an individual player to achieve a maximum level within one season. Omega, Dyson, Romulan, Nukara, have all contributed to this. Level 1-50 still doesn't take long either. So having this one thing that suddenly doesn't fit this pattern is an outlier.
But worse, the whole reason that Reputation was brought into "maximum four ground, four space" was because of Power Creep... the very thing reintroduced in buckets by R&D, Specializations, Ship Mastery, and Ship Traits.
People have tried to get a real run on gaining specializations... and Cryptic scattershot at a bunch of people, retro-nerfing achievements in a hissy fit of spectacular proportions, based on little more than "we decided after the fact, after we were warned about it, that we didn't like this... so we've very carefully randomly removed some people's points while not bothering with other people, because we can". This didn't affect me personally but it does introduce the very real spectre of "If I grind faster than they like, I'lll come in and discover it gone without notice" What's that you're saying about working to get them?
The whole thing is not just problematic, but amateurish, because it reintroduces problems the game had at launch with not enough content to achieve levels, reintroduces Power Creep, and thanks to the Illustrious Executive Producer and his Grand Pronouncement, we no longer feel confident to bother trying very hard.
Very badly handled all-round.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
This section of your statement encapsulates the hilarity of their thought process very nicely. I laughed out loud, then I laughed some more at the sheer absurdity of it all. Thank you for sharing.
Prince and Darling Nikki would approve ... with a little DMSR thrown in.
I didn't say don't get all the Specialization points. What I said is that anyone who feels they must get all the Specialization points is going to make themselves frustrated because that's not the goal of the system.
The goal is to be able to provide a skill tree type system as seen in many other MMOs without the worry of being locked out of choices. It means that you should plan to pick the path you want most first, then fill in the rest as time goes by. No one's forcing anyone to try and get all of the Specialization points, and you don't need to do so to be competitive.
If you want to, that's great. But the point is you don't have to and still be fine.
Anyone who feels that they must get them all is suffering from the common "I must be l337" syndrome of many an MMO gamer, but that's not the design goal of the system.
Put another way, would you have rather made them cap the number of Spec points given so you could only get a certain number of abilities? Isn't this system better than that alternative?
Of all the things to complain about with this release, the structure of the Specialization system is just about lowest on my priority list. It is the most open and least pressure inducing Spec tree system imaginable, yet people complain about it.
I haven't upgraded 95% of my gear to XIII much less XIV. I don't really plan to at any point, either. The content, including Advanced queues can be done with XII gear. I certainly didn't feel like a "newbie" at the start of DR because of the newer tiers of gear and ships. I didn't feel like one because of the Specialization or Mastery systems.
If there's a thing that makes me feel like a "newbie" or "underpowered" relative to what I could do previously, it's that I can't carry weak teams through what used to be Elite queues. That's not due to gear or skills (as in character skills--my player skills remain the same, i.e. good but not great).
The problem is, due to the larger pools of HP and the optionals that can't be failed, Advanced queues require a level of teamwork that is very hard to find in a pick-up group.
Even assuming the majority of players who jump into Advanced queues have the best gear available, without teamwork (or at least everyone being on the same page because everyone knows the thing inside and out), Advanced queues generally fail.
Of course, the problem there is that we would have to upgrade the calibre of these players (not all, but enough that there's often a spoiler who does something to fail the mission). Cryptic seems to believe that players as a whole want to spend the effort (as moderate as it is) to be better at these things than they were. That is an optimistic view, and one that is obviously failing.
The problem is that players get comfortable with a status quo. A status quo whose bar may have been too low but became status quo nonetheless. Instead of players learning queues and working together, however, we have backlash and people not playing queues at all. I still lay blame at Cryptic's feet, but it is mainly that they were far too optimistic, assuming that people would adapt and rise to meet a higher challenge. Instead, people balked, and largely for good reason.
As for people who were racking up the Spec points, some of that was through exploit, whether they meant to or not. That exploit should have been, and was, closed.
What I don't agree with was the wiping out of those points. The devs needed to be 100% sure that every Spec point they wiped out was gained via an exploit. That is not the case, and I don't think there is or was a foolproof way to measure it. Innocent people look to have gotten caught in it, and thus it was a bad decision.
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For the tl;dr crowd, again, all I am stating is that the perception that you "must" get all the Specialization points is missing the point. You don't. You really, really, really don't.
If you want to, that's cool. But you can be competitive without them. You can also be competitive on everything except Elite without XIII or XIV gear.
That doesn't mean Cryptic hasn't messed up. I'm just saying that there are much, much bigger fish to fry than the Specialization system, which is the crux of this thread.
The alternative, if they didn't want us to reach 60 fast; is lower the level requirements of the missions and scale down NPCs accordingly.
I'm fine with grinding out the extra 50 or so points to max all Specializations. I'm NOT fine with their flawed and immersion-breaking gaps between mission chains due to not being of the requisite level.
I am just losing faith in the game.
I can agree with that. I'm basically DOffing to 59 to see the final mission because the level 58 patrols gained me a whopping 1 bar of xp.
It'd be a bit easier if Advanced queues weren't so full of fail (as in most pick-up groups fail the optionals-that-are-not-optional and thus the entire mission). It'd also be easier if replaying lower level content also always properly scaled xp.
DOffing has been my go to for gaining experience simply because it's such a low investment of time and energy that it feels worth it.
MMO devs need to always frame their work with the following question: will players feel like what they're doing is worth their time? There are many things about DR that make me say yes, yet just as many where I say no. That is a problem. Moreso, where I say no, I often used to be able to say yes, which makes things worse.
the thing is DR is not even a month old and i am half way to lv60 already, and i havent even been trying that hard.
besides i dont care if it takes a while, im not doing very much differant to how i played before DR launched, other then doing the missions every now and then.
thats a lot of some players biggest problem thay want to blaze through everything in no time flat so they can get back to complaining theres nothing to play for.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.