Have YOU considered, though, that their utter silence on the matter doesn't bode well?! A simple "Oops! Our bad. We'll fix it ASAP!" would go a long way. The longer they wait with responding, the more I'm beginning to fear it was absolutely intentional.
I tought some of those ragers were leaving...why are they still posting:D:D
Sorry but just funny when peeps rage and said they would quit and they stick around. Someone said it best DR separates the child from the real men...dont kill the messenger :D:
So, what this sounds like to me: only a week and a half after the launch of DR, you essentially have a certain number of players at Level 110.
That's insane. Given that the dev team said at STLV that you won't be able to "burn through content" once DR goes live, and that there is no Bonus XP event going on... yeah, if you've maxed out at Level 60 AND maxed out your specializations, that's an exploit.
No, that is not an exploit, that is NORMAL in most MMO's, The SWTOR team failed to see it coming and apparently, so dod the STO team. Players WILL find the most efficient way to level, it happens in EVERY game.
let me repeat that: EVERY MMO has some players who use the quests/missions (or whatever you want to call them) that are in the game to level in the most efficient, fastest manner possible. Considering that folks were doing Tau Dewa to level on Tribble I cannot see how the devs are suprised.
"Creative uses of game mechanics" are often nerfed by all game devs in MMO's but this wasn't all that creative, this was really mundane and certainly was not an exploit. the fact that players are being treated like they cheated, regardless if they did any Tau Dewa or not is, honestly, ridiculous and self defeating over the long term. Mostly bcause players have long memories.
I tought some of those ragers were leaving...why are they still posting:D:D
Sorry but just funny when peeps rage and said they would quit and they stick around. Someone said it best DR separates the child from the real men...dont kill the messenger :D:
Heh - I'll rage on occasion.... but mostly I just want answers from an official source. I like the game, I really do, and I usually enjoy playing it.
Truth be told, xp can be regained... however, with all the *real* issues at the moment *desktop crashes, etc.) the game is reching an unplayable state by by many.
I just want to know !: is it being addressed and 2: when they expect to have it addressed.
I tought some of those ragers were leaving...why are they still posting:D:D
Sorry but just funny when peeps rage and said they would quit and they stick around. Someone said it best DR separates the child from the real men...dont kill the messenger :D:
I suspect they're hoping they're wrong, Cryptic just released a really bad, (and poorly timed) patch and will reverse it easing their aggravation. (Possibly with a double XP weekend or giving us something back like the old M.I.)
Personally since I've a lifetime membership I'll just stop logging in for awhile until I see some news I like/humility and contrition from the devs.
...the fact that players are being treated like they cheated, regardless if they did any Tau Dewa or not is, honestly, ridiculous and self defeating over the long term. Mostly because players have long memories.
This +1. We didn't cheat. We played an MMO. If they didn't want us to play that way, the onus was on them to lock that down when they were told by Tribble testers that would happen.
I suspect they're hoping they're wrong, Cryptic just released a really bad, (and poorly timed) patch and will reverse it easing their aggravation. (Possibly with a double XP weekend or giving us something back like the old M.I.)
Personally since I've a lifetime membership I'll just stop logging in for awhile until I see some news I like/humility and contrition from the devs.
Same here. Not going to log in any more, until I get my 300,000 XP back. The thought alone of having lost all those spec points, and having to grind them back, at a 70% reduced rate, just because some petty devs couldn't stand me actually playing the game, *shudder*. So, I will grant them their sorry wish, and not play at all. Until they roll back this horrible, blanket punitive measure, born out of petty spite. Especially since I wasn't even involved with the Tau Dewa crowd at all.
It's especially annoying for the players hit by this who didn't use Tau Dewa. The damned game tells you 'You will no longer gain a level each story! Play some patrols!" I played Argala on Elite. As I was instructed. It's one of the few maps with decent enemies, no annoying fetch quests, and without a freaking sun in your face.
Have YOU considered, though, that their utter silence on the matter doesn't bode well?! A simple "Oops! Our bad. We'll fix it ASAP!" would go a long way. The longer they wait with responding, the more I'm beginning to fear it was absolutely intentional.
Fine, it's your time that you're wasting, why should I care about what you do? I'll just continue to play the game and enjoy the expansion.
It does not matter if people knew what they were doing was an exploit or not. "Ignorantia juris non excusat"... ignorance of the law excuses no one.
So playing missions, and gaining the reward the devs put in there is against the rules now?
Seriously?
If the devs had a peoblem with the XP curve from doing non DR stuff post 50, after it was found reported and evena dvertized in MANY Youtube videos and on these forums... Sorry, but changing the rules after the fact is unfair, it is CHEATING in most games.
So why shoudl we condone that sort of unfair treatment of us?
Oh and for the record: highest toon on STO is 52, you see the WOD pre-patch launched on the same day as delta rising, plus there are new hallows end pets and toys....
It does not matter if people knew what they were doing was an exploit or not. "Ignorantia juris non excusat"... ignorance of the law excuses no one.
Ill counter with onus probandi, the burden of proof.
If the possibility of exploit was shared with them in beta and they chose not to address it but rather roll it through to live, then how is it an exploit at all and not what the devs had intended? Their ignorance is no more an excuse than any, although it seems they werent ignorant of the issue at all. This places the onus of this disaster entirely upon their shoulders unless they can prove that the release wasnt as intended.
Yes, if a law is written which permits illegal behaviour, those contributing to this behaviour are still committing an illegal act. However, upon review of the law, those who were penalized are often exonerated should it be proven that the law itself was in err.
In laymans terms, the Devs were lazy and rushed and dropped the ball, allowing an issue they were aware of to become accessible to all players. As a result, they penalized the players for actively taking part in an issue created solely by the devs.
Laziness, incompetence, or wilfulness, it has to be one of the three. None exonerate the Devs from complete blame in this, nor does it place the entirety of fault upon the players.
Remove the feature. Fine. But dont penalize the players for it.
It was actually the only thing in DR that felt right & fun :P .. teaming up with random people, interacting etc ...
... DR-Patrols are obviously cheating, though ... and should be removed from the game ...
so you were not just powerlevelling? because if you read what i wrote and you read what the exploit was you would know that powerlevelling was not the exploit.
for those that have lost points that truly were not exploiting put in a support ticket. I had a bug at DR launch with skillpoints I put in a support ticket, they asked me for a screenshot and they helped me. So if you lost points and were not exploiting did you ask them and open a ticket or are you all just jumping to conclusions? which is what a lot do around here (aside from not reading what the posters actually write .. which is another problem ... )
It's especially annoying for the players hit by this who didn't use Tau Dewa. The damned game tells you 'You will no longer gain a level each story! Play some patrols!" I played Argala on Elite. As I was instructed. It's one of the few maps with decent enemies, no annoying fetch quests, and without a freaking sun in your face.
We have apparently advanced at the incorrect speed, doing what was asked, with the content that was offered, in the correctly provided area. There are "certain maps" about.... That would be the only ones we realistically had in the Delta Quadrant!
Cute, but you're only telling half the story. The other, and far more prominent, part is the Nulla poena principle:
"Nullum crimen, nulla poena sine praevia lege poenali."
"No crime, no punishment. without a previously [defined] law."
In other words, you have to define FIRST what an exploit is, before you can punish ppl for it. Otherwise the law becomes just an arbitrary joke.
This is correct in 99% of the cases. There are a few edge cases where somethig is an exploit but there is no rule specifically against it....
Oh, say, tossing grenades to regrow the ice platforms in the Lich King fight thus removing one aspect of the encounter entirely (the Val'kyr dropping players to thier unrezzable doom) but just playing missions that have been there for over a year? and repeating them as the game has allowed for as long as the missions have existed? NOT in the same category!
It does not matter if people knew what they were doing was an exploit or not. "Ignorantia juris non excusat"... ignorance of the law excuses no one.
For IJNE to apply, it needs a law, moral or otherwise, to break. In this case, the debate is not whether or not people were aware they were breaking the law. Game rules do not equate to laws, and fallaciously conflating the two does not make it so.
This is a game, and the game has rules, not laws. Most players trust that what the game allows is in accordance with the game's rules. For the most part, computer games self-arbitrate; generally speaking, if the game allows you to do it, it's safe to assume that behaviour is acceptable within the game's rules.
When the game's self-arbitrary nature fails (such as when there is a bug), players are not always aware that a failure has occurred. In cases such as this one, players can be expected to make reasonable judgments about whether they have encountered an unintended behaviour (bug) or not.
In this case, I don't think players had sufficient reason to reasonably come to conclusion that their behaviour was unintended, let alone egregious. Continuing to play in Tau Dewa as they did was not only permissible, but also justifiable.
This is correct in 99% of the cases. There are a few edge cases where somethig is an exploit but there is no rule specifically against it....
Oh, say, tossing grenades to regrow the ice platforms in the Lich King fight thus removing one aspect of the encounter entirely (the Val'kyr dropping players to thier unrezzable doom) but just playing missions that have been there for over a year? and repeating them as the game has allowed for as long as the missions have existed? NOT in the same category!
Indeed. People have been doing this for over a year. Moreover, Cryptic have been explicitely informed about it, on Tribble, and continued to allow it nonetheless (which only strengthened people in their 'reasonable expectation' that running patrols is not an exploit).
Then Geko realized he wasn't selling as much T6 ships as he had hoped (as an in-lieu-of means of being able to cope with the increased difficulty, other than grinding patrols in your current ships). And then the petty nerfing started, and ppl were suddenly exhibiting 'exploitive behavior.' Yeah, right.
Tell me, when in STO history, has Cryptic ever cared before how fast I leveled up?! Did they care I leveled my main inside week?
In the narrow confines of what some were doing, yes. People just don't seem to grasp the very simple concept of what exploit is. Exploits aren't what we all may think they are. An exploit is what the Developers deem it to be.
I see, so grouping up, setting difficulty to elite, flying to a system, entering a system, doing a mission and then repeating it, as the game allows is now cheating?
Read the ToS, which you agree to abide by each time you log in. Pay particular attention to the sections on exploits (as defined by Cryptic) and the parts where they discuss how Cryptic can change the game in any way at any time for any reason at all.
Yes, they can change things any time they want to. But that does not mean it is a good idea. Websters could redefine the color of the summer sky as "Plaid" and get every other dictionary company in the world to do the same. And they are allowed to do that, but so what? If Cryptic wants to punish players for playing the game, then why should we play? There are other games out there after all.
Why is it in cryptics best interest to do this, especially when they either KNEW it was possible beforehand or were being willfully ignorant of the possibility?
One of the first rules of buisness should be "Don't jimmy kick your customers"
Cryptic disagreed. They own the game and can change it however they want, whenever they want for whatever reason they want. What they say goes, not what you or I or anyone else says.
You're not worthy of thecosmic1's quote in your signature anymore.
It was an analogy and it is still applicable. Call them rules or laws or words to live to by, ignorance isn't an excuse.
Good for you. Cryptic disagreed. They own the game and can change it however they want, whenever they want for whatever reason they want. What they say goes, not what you or I or anyone else says.
You hold that everyone who played the game during the egregious error put in place by Cryptic is somehow an exploit, whether or not the players in question were actively taking advantage of that exploit or were even aware it existed.
I hold that Cryptic is in err for allowing a known issue to slip through to live through either laziness or incompetence only to rediscover it when players somehow managed to follow the very advice placed in to the game instructions with the expansion to level their characters from 50 60, only to call it an exploit after allowing this to happen and, thereby, punishing players game-wide for their own mistake.
These people where Chastised and punished for their stupidity, now log in and fight borg~
This, is the goal, of narrheehaw It's mission, to destroy new worlds and civilizations
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] And to boldly ruin, what no one has ruined before.
so[/url] you were not just powerlevelling? because if you read what i wrote and you read what the exploit was you would know that powerlevelling was not the exploit.
for those that have lost points that truly were not exploiting put in a support ticket. I had a bug at DR launch with skillpoints I put in a support ticket, they asked me for a screenshot and they helped me. So if you lost points and were not exploiting did you ask them and open a ticket or are you all just jumping to conclusions? which is what a lot do around here (aside from not reading what the posters actually write .. which is another problem ... )
*Actually*...
They've now decided that "power leveling *was* the exploit:
OK, fine. So they identiifed a "small number" if players that used the functionality THEY put into the game. In turn they neutered ALL players.
How is that fair? Why shoud dwe be punished for their mistake?
All exploits are "functionality" they put into the game. Voldemort was "functionality" they put into the game.
Cheaters need to get a new line, this has been the cheaters excuse for almost 2 decades of MMOs now. "Its not my fault I'm a cheater, they let me! do it! Its not fair to punish me."
All exploits are "functionality" they put into the game. Voldemort was "functionality" they put into the game.
Cheaters need to get a new line, this has been the cheaters excuse for almost 2 decades of MMOs now. "Its not my fault I'm a cheater, they let me! do it! Its not fair to punish me."
Riiiight let me try another approach.
You play the game, gain levels, avoid cheaters, even those who have NO IDEA it is an exploit and are simply playing the game the way the developers encouraged them to do in writing . You do everything just the way you should and in the end you get punished for the actions of a few.
Comments
Yes, LOL. I *have* considered it:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=20147701&postcount=53
Have YOU considered, though, that their utter silence on the matter doesn't bode well?! A simple "Oops! Our bad. We'll fix it ASAP!" would go a long way. The longer they wait with responding, the more I'm beginning to fear it was absolutely intentional.
Sorry but just funny when peeps rage and said they would quit and they stick around. Someone said it best DR separates the child from the real men...dont kill the messenger
No, that is not an exploit, that is NORMAL in most MMO's, The SWTOR team failed to see it coming and apparently, so dod the STO team. Players WILL find the most efficient way to level, it happens in EVERY game.
let me repeat that: EVERY MMO has some players who use the quests/missions (or whatever you want to call them) that are in the game to level in the most efficient, fastest manner possible. Considering that folks were doing Tau Dewa to level on Tribble I cannot see how the devs are suprised.
"Creative uses of game mechanics" are often nerfed by all game devs in MMO's but this wasn't all that creative, this was really mundane and certainly was not an exploit. the fact that players are being treated like they cheated, regardless if they did any Tau Dewa or not is, honestly, ridiculous and self defeating over the long term. Mostly bcause players have long memories.
Heh - I'll rage on occasion.... but mostly I just want answers from an official source. I like the game, I really do, and I usually enjoy playing it.
Truth be told, xp can be regained... however, with all the *real* issues at the moment *desktop crashes, etc.) the game is reching an unplayable state by by many.
I just want to know !: is it being addressed and 2: when they expect to have it addressed.
I suspect they're hoping they're wrong, Cryptic just released a really bad, (and poorly timed) patch and will reverse it easing their aggravation. (Possibly with a double XP weekend or giving us something back like the old M.I.)
Personally since I've a lifetime membership I'll just stop logging in for awhile until I see some news I like/humility and contrition from the devs.
This +1. We didn't cheat. We played an MMO. If they didn't want us to play that way, the onus was on them to lock that down when they were told by Tribble testers that would happen.
Same here. Not going to log in any more, until I get my 300,000 XP back. The thought alone of having lost all those spec points, and having to grind them back, at a 70% reduced rate, just because some petty devs couldn't stand me actually playing the game, *shudder*. So, I will grant them their sorry wish, and not play at all. Until they roll back this horrible, blanket punitive measure, born out of petty spite. Especially since I wasn't even involved with the Tau Dewa crowd at all.
So playing missions, and gaining the reward the devs put in there is against the rules now?
Seriously?
If the devs had a peoblem with the XP curve from doing non DR stuff post 50, after it was found reported and evena dvertized in MANY Youtube videos and on these forums... Sorry, but changing the rules after the fact is unfair, it is CHEATING in most games.
So why shoudl we condone that sort of unfair treatment of us?
Oh and for the record: highest toon on STO is 52, you see the WOD pre-patch launched on the same day as delta rising, plus there are new hallows end pets and toys....
Ill counter with onus probandi, the burden of proof.
If the possibility of exploit was shared with them in beta and they chose not to address it but rather roll it through to live, then how is it an exploit at all and not what the devs had intended? Their ignorance is no more an excuse than any, although it seems they werent ignorant of the issue at all. This places the onus of this disaster entirely upon their shoulders unless they can prove that the release wasnt as intended.
Yes, if a law is written which permits illegal behaviour, those contributing to this behaviour are still committing an illegal act. However, upon review of the law, those who were penalized are often exonerated should it be proven that the law itself was in err.
In laymans terms, the Devs were lazy and rushed and dropped the ball, allowing an issue they were aware of to become accessible to all players. As a result, they penalized the players for actively taking part in an issue created solely by the devs.
Laziness, incompetence, or wilfulness, it has to be one of the three. None exonerate the Devs from complete blame in this, nor does it place the entirety of fault upon the players.
Remove the feature. Fine. But dont penalize the players for it.
so you were not just powerlevelling? because if you read what i wrote and you read what the exploit was you would know that powerlevelling was not the exploit.
for those that have lost points that truly were not exploiting put in a support ticket. I had a bug at DR launch with skillpoints I put in a support ticket, they asked me for a screenshot and they helped me. So if you lost points and were not exploiting did you ask them and open a ticket or are you all just jumping to conclusions? which is what a lot do around here (aside from not reading what the posters actually write .. which is another problem ... )
We have apparently advanced at the incorrect speed, doing what was asked, with the content that was offered, in the correctly provided area. There are "certain maps" about.... That would be the only ones we realistically had in the Delta Quadrant!
Cute, but you're only telling half the story. The other, and far more prominent, part is the Nulla poena principle:
"Nullum crimen, nulla poena sine praevia lege poenali."
"No crime, no punishment. without a previously [defined] law."
In other words, you have to define FIRST what an exploit is, before you can punish ppl for it. Otherwise the law becomes just an arbitrary joke.
This is correct in 99% of the cases. There are a few edge cases where somethig is an exploit but there is no rule specifically against it....
Oh, say, tossing grenades to regrow the ice platforms in the Lich King fight thus removing one aspect of the encounter entirely (the Val'kyr dropping players to thier unrezzable doom) but just playing missions that have been there for over a year? and repeating them as the game has allowed for as long as the missions have existed? NOT in the same category!
For IJNE to apply, it needs a law, moral or otherwise, to break. In this case, the debate is not whether or not people were aware they were breaking the law. Game rules do not equate to laws, and fallaciously conflating the two does not make it so.
This is a game, and the game has rules, not laws. Most players trust that what the game allows is in accordance with the game's rules. For the most part, computer games self-arbitrate; generally speaking, if the game allows you to do it, it's safe to assume that behaviour is acceptable within the game's rules.
When the game's self-arbitrary nature fails (such as when there is a bug), players are not always aware that a failure has occurred. In cases such as this one, players can be expected to make reasonable judgments about whether they have encountered an unintended behaviour (bug) or not.
In this case, I don't think players had sufficient reason to reasonably come to conclusion that their behaviour was unintended, let alone egregious. Continuing to play in Tau Dewa as they did was not only permissible, but also justifiable.
Indeed. People have been doing this for over a year. Moreover, Cryptic have been explicitely informed about it, on Tribble, and continued to allow it nonetheless (which only strengthened people in their 'reasonable expectation' that running patrols is not an exploit).
Then Geko realized he wasn't selling as much T6 ships as he had hoped (as an in-lieu-of means of being able to cope with the increased difficulty, other than grinding patrols in your current ships). And then the petty nerfing started, and ppl were suddenly exhibiting 'exploitive behavior.' Yeah, right.
Tell me, when in STO history, has Cryptic ever cared before how fast I leveled up?! Did they care I leveled my main inside week?
I see, so grouping up, setting difficulty to elite, flying to a system, entering a system, doing a mission and then repeating it, as the game allows is now cheating?
Yes, they can change things any time they want to. But that does not mean it is a good idea. Websters could redefine the color of the summer sky as "Plaid" and get every other dictionary company in the world to do the same. And they are allowed to do that, but so what? If Cryptic wants to punish players for playing the game, then why should we play? There are other games out there after all.
Why is it in cryptics best interest to do this, especially when they either KNEW it was possible beforehand or were being willfully ignorant of the possibility?
One of the first rules of buisness should be "Don't jimmy kick your customers"
You're not worthy of thecosmic1's quote in your signature anymore.
Just kidding.
You hold that everyone who played the game during the egregious error put in place by Cryptic is somehow an exploit, whether or not the players in question were actively taking advantage of that exploit or were even aware it existed.
I hold that Cryptic is in err for allowing a known issue to slip through to live through either laziness or incompetence only to rediscover it when players somehow managed to follow the very advice placed in to the game instructions with the expansion to level their characters from 50 60, only to call it an exploit after allowing this to happen and, thereby, punishing players game-wide for their own mistake.
Let us agree that we are at an impasse.
These people where Chastised and punished for their stupidity, now log in and fight borg~
It's mission, to destroy new worlds and civilizations
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
And to boldly ruin, what no one has ruined before.
You're gaming on a Mac.
How can anyone take you seriously?
That said, if they advertise that it works on a crapple macintrash, it should do so.
I can, however see how getting you and the other Mac user back in game may not be a priority.
*Actually*...
They've now decided that "power leveling *was* the exploit:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1268701
All exploits are "functionality" they put into the game. Voldemort was "functionality" they put into the game.
Cheaters need to get a new line, this has been the cheaters excuse for almost 2 decades of MMOs now. "Its not my fault I'm a cheater, they let me! do it! Its not fair to punish me."
Riiiight let me try another approach.
You play the game, gain levels, avoid cheaters, even those who have NO IDEA it is an exploit and are simply playing the game the way the developers encouraged them to do in writing . You do everything just the way you should and in the end you get punished for the actions of a few.
Still feeing rosy about it?