one of their devs (or at least someone related to the company) was laughing at a guy who was threatening to kill himself.....yeah
also, HAVE YOU ever even heard of the same game? A new player literally cannot get to the same level as a veteran, ever, becuase to do so, they need to actually last long enough and be good enough to defeat people who have been on the game much longer.
Who wouldn't laugh at a guy threatening to kill himself? That sort of thing is pretty pathetic.
"Ooh, look at me, my life is so terrible I'm going to end it, but first I'll talk about it with my favorite MMO community."
also, HAVE YOU ever even heard of the same game? A new player literally cannot get to the same level as a veteran, ever, becuase to do so, they need to actually last long enough and be good enough to defeat people who have been on the game much longer.
EVE is not a 1v1 deathmatch game. It is a game that allows it's users to create the narrative of the universe. To enjoy it you either accept the limitations of an individual amongst the thousands. Or you refuse to accept those limitations and attempt to make in game history.
It really does showcase human nature in both it's glory and depravity within a safe place. I think aliens created that game to learn more about us sometimes.
Patrols in TD were not scaling to level. Players using this fact to bypass the leveling gating. Zero effort by factor of still getting level 50 exp rewards while being 5+ levels above the enemy, thus easily destroying them with little effort. Expand that criteria to groups of people flooding the content. This was a bug and unintended. Players used it to their advantage, thus exploit. This was not a concern. Then you expand the criteria of exploit. Max specialized players now earn dilithium for.......using the exploit. This now touches multiple systems. End result, they lock it down until such time as it can be rectified. The vocal minority rages.
Lets look at what ELSE is being addressed, though. EXP requirements loosened in multiple areas. Dificulty curve addressed, especially DR content ships being damage sponges. Ship Mastery made easier to accomplish......when it already required less SP than your charactor to reach the next grade. Ah, but it didn't earn skill points for ground missions, which is.....about one third of content. And they reduced requirement by one third.
Objectively......they listened to us.
And now I go back to waiting until maintenance is over so I can continue my reputation grind with Romulan Republic.
also, HAVE YOU ever even heard of the same game? A new player literally cannot get to the same level as a veteran, ever, becuase to do so, they need to actually last long enough and be good enough to defeat people who have been on the game much longer.
Are you talking about EVE still? i played it for several months a year or so ago. What you say is true but only to a certain point.
Just to state the obvious but you can only fly one ship at a time in EVE. When a vet player goes into a certain ship not all of their skill points bonuses are taken into effect. If they are in a battlecruiser for example and they have training for every weapon type and size and every ship type and every ship system imaginable that wont matter. Because the only bonuses that apply are the ones for the weapons the ship currently has equipped, the bonuses for the ship they are currently in and for the systems they currently have equipped. With specialization a new player can catch up to a vet player quite easily. Each ship and each piece of gear has a list of recommended and prerequisite skills that the player needs to be trained just to be able to sit in the ships. But once you max those out then you re good for that ship.
Pretty much any MMO that wants raids to always be endgame will do exactly that. WOW has essentially done it quite a bit with their older raids.
Destiny also does exactly that (recycles in its case about 99% of the game for the last 10 levels by adding more 0's to enemy health and damage with the expectation that you're going to grind your brains out on it anyway.)
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Just be glad that they didn't shut down the game on a Saturday and rolled back the servers to deal with an exploit like in Neverwinter. Some accounts were permanently banned as well due to this exploit. That day is forever known in Neverwinter as Caturday due to players that used the exploit used their astral diamonds (dilithium) to purchase cats from their version of the Dilithium Store.
In some ways it's terrible. Animations are canned and have barely changed since release. Graphics are sub-par compared to what was available 4 years ago, going by recent releases it's going backwards in the shader department too.
However there is a lot of fun to be had in the developing of the ships and their builds (well that's my enjoyment). Currently with the health problem it makes everything tedious. I mentioned this in another thread in that you could have a gear rating based off Resists and DPS potential of a ship, that in turn would be grouped with everyone elses Gear stat which in turn would adjust the scaling of instances on the fly. Not hard to do or implement, let alone think of. This would prevent areas not scaling correctly to the ships/players involved.
Not only that it can also link into the lvl system and if lvl matching is enabled it can adjust for gear below Mk 12 to match those of a lower lvl AND Gear rating.
It's incredibly bad to blame the playerbase for the issues in Tau Dewa when I know for a fact they were scaling correctly (if you checked the HP of the ships involved they were in the millions for ships like the Ravager which was about the only real boss ship), however the enemy composition made those Patrols a lot easier to clear than those in DR, where there was a higher composition of high hull ships.
For them to remove the ONE carrot for completing the Specialisation trees in that you then get dil from it, that is insulting. It's saying oh hey you can have a bonus for getting to that level of grind. OH **** sorry you can't have that because you can make too much dil now as we didn't bother to test it. Knee jerk reactions to idiotic design decisions.
All of the areas were functioning normally and within specification, it's the Dev's who failed to setup their game rather than an exploitation by the community.
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
For them to remove the ONE carrot for completing the Specialisation trees in that you then get dil from it, that is insulting. It's saying oh hey you can have a bonus for getting to that level of grind. OH **** sorry you can't have that because you can make too much dil now as we didn't bother to test it. Knee jerk reactions to idiotic design decisions.
That's one of the bigger issues for me, it makes me wonder what else will be changed/removed. They're going to run out of goodwill on the player side.
.....you mean the game that is filled with the worst of gaming society, where if you are new, you are gong nowhere without spending literally hundreds of IRL dollars, all of which can be lost in a second because some jerk decided to attack you. That game is so P2W it should have its own level of P2Wness.
thanks for naming ONE game, and sad one game being barely a game, and more of the perfect job for a TRIBBLE
I left STO three years ago to play EVE. I've been back here about a month and I think these forums are far worse than anything you'll find in EVE. At least there we don't whine like children when something is mildly challenging. You don't understand the EVE community so you shouldn't be talking about it as if you do.
one of their devs (or at least someone related to the company) was laughing at a guy who was threatening to kill himself.....yeah
also, HAVE YOU ever even heard of the same game? A new player literally cannot get to the same level as a veteran, ever, becuase to do so, they need to actually last long enough and be good enough to defeat people who have been on the game much longer.
You are completely wrong about this. It was said by a player at a fanfest event.
Also you do not need to get to the same level as a veteran. There are five levels to each skill -- the first four provide 80% of the benefit and can be done in a few days or less. Also you don't use all of your skills all of the time. You can be as proficient as a veteran in specific ships and roles.
How is it the fault of the community for taking advantage of an exploit when it is the Devs job to ensure that exploits don't exist?
Nope, can't go there. If there really was an exploit, then shame on those who used it; and shame on me for having supported them!
At this point I'm not so convinced there really was an exploit, though. What I hear the devs currently saying, is (paraphrased):
"We found out people were actually reaping the Dilithium rewards you get after completing the entire Specialization tree; and they were doing it so proficiently, banding together, that we saw our Zen income threatened, and decided to call it an exploit."
Like I said earlier, if people were somehow able to fight low-level NPC's, on Elite, whilst retaining their own high levels, I would definitely call THAT 'exploitive behavior.' If not, Cryptic was just being petty.
Speaking for myself only, up until the launch of the new season i was basically at end game. finally after 3 years and with only a minimal amount of daily grinding i could actually play and have fun. the ratio being about 50/50 (50%grinding and 50% playing). like with most other MMO's the grinding was necessary in order to maintain the equipment i needed to go do missions and to play PVE and PVP.
Shortly before the patch with the intro of the upgrade system and the crafting system that grind immediately became 20/80 (20%play and 80% grind). now i was still able to swallow this because there was once again an end game coming, yes the dill hole got bigger but once my grinding to get back to the top of the hill was over i could let my everyday game play fill that hole after i hit lvl60.
But now i find out that you are taking the lvl60 dillithium away.... and why. not because it wasnt a great idea, not because it wouldn't lvl the game play for all players at end game..... because someone found a way to exploit it......
Well that's were im gonna say Stop.... Hold up...... One Moment Please...... instead of punishing the loyal players who still "actually want to play" and who are trying desperately to find a way to still enjoy this game, why are you not punishing the people who are exploiting your system. ban them, kick them, steal all of there worldly goods.......
But please stop punishing your player base! Those of us who are desperately trying to find a reason to keep playing.
Speaking for myself only, up until the launch of the new season i was basically at end game. finally after 3 years and with only a minimal amount of daily grinding i could actually play and have fun. the ratio being about 50/50 (50%grinding and 50% playing). like with most other MMO's the grinding was necessary in order to maintain the equipment i needed to go do missions and to play PVE and PVP.
Shortly before the patch with the intro of the upgrade system and the crafting system that grind immediately became 20/80 (20%play and 80% grind). now i was still able to swallow this because there was once again an end game coming, yes the dill hole got bigger but once my grinding to get back to the top of the hill was over i could let my everyday game play fill that hole after i hit lvl60.
But now i find out that you are taking the lvl60 dillithium away.... and why. not because it wasnt a great idea, not because it wouldn't lvl the game play for all players at end game..... because someone found a way to exploit it......
Well that's were im gonna say Stop.... Hold up...... One Moment Please...... instead of punishing the loyal players who still "actually want to play" and who are trying desperately to find a way to still enjoy this game, why are you not punishing the people who are exploiting your system. ban them, kick them, steal all of there worldly goods.......
But please stop punishing your player base! Those of us who are desperately trying to find a reason to keep playing.
They will not ban a bunch of people becouse they might lose potental sales. However they better start to realize if they keep punishing all their player base becouse a group found an exploit they will lose alot of thier loyal paying player base.
Speaking for myself as a loyal paying gold sub member since dec.2010 I am getting sick and tired of everytime their is a exploit I get smacked in the face and punished for something I never took part in I have no reason in the world to try and find a way to cheat the system even if it was their fault I still would'nt engage in it I have the time to grind and earn it the honest way. But yet I get punished like the rest.
So I have been rally thinking of dropping my sub the last few monthe's heck I even started a post awhile back to get info on what I would lose if I went f2p. I believe crptic you have put the final nail in the coffin come the 29th of oct Im going to drop down to f2p I will not renew my sub.
I say this not as a threat I am not stupid I know this game will go on without my 14.99 a month. However if alot of your paying playerbase like me decides to go f2p and has the ability to grind for anything they want ingame and never spend a dime your going to have a major problem. And the lord knows I hope you dont becouse I love this game but I am sick of being punished for your mistakes. Sorry to hi jack your post op.
At this point I'm not so convinced there really was an exploit, though. What I hear the devs currently saying, is (paraphrased):
"We found out people were actually reaping the Dilithium rewards you get after completing the entire Specialization tree; and they were doing it so proficiently, banding together, that we saw our Zen income threatened, and decided to call it an exploit."
There's an extra cause-and-effect piece here, though. Once enough people get new end-game and power-grind enough Dil, the Dil Exchange rates would be all but guaranteed to go through the roof. It might actually get to the point where it'd be less painful to spend the real money in ZEN, instead of grind a couple hundred Dil for 1 single ZEN.
So I don't believe this was a threat to ZEN profits.
one of their devs (or at least someone related to the company) was laughing at a guy who was threatening to kill himself.....yeah
also, HAVE YOU ever even heard of the same game? A new player literally cannot get to the same level as a veteran, ever, becuase to do so, they need to actually last long enough and be good enough to defeat people who have been on the game much longer.
I started playing EvE about 5 month's ago, using a 2 week buddy code given to me by a friend. I started by flying cheep Frig's in Faction Warfare when the group was on and minning when they wern't. At the start of the second week I was able to hold my own in fights against vets in the small and novice plex's, at the end of that second week I scored my first solo kill against one.
Once I subbed, my buddy sold the plex he got for referring me and gave me half. Yes it took me a couple months to get to the point where I was earning enough isk in game to cover my weekly losses. but the 350 mil from that plex covered them up until that point.
I made a second character to use in null, and joined up with a corp in Providence. since then I have started a planetary production system for repair paste and other fuels, and started a combat booster ( illegal drugs) production PoS and made a name for myself on every side of the galaxy for being able to sneak through enemy territory ( pretty much anyone not in provi is set red for me due to the corp) in unarmed cloaky minning ships and stealing any and every gas i need to produce those boosters.
I also have participated in several large battles (of close to 1,000+ players) over the last few months in our war with Test and Brave Newbies (who just tried recruiting me in Archage last week - lol). I was flying in the stealth bomber wings that determined the outcome of a couple of key systems through the war, just finished training for interceptors and will start helping out on gate camps and patrols while i work my way into interdictors.
5 months in and I earn enough from my P.I. and boosters to fund my losses in the war and on my F.W. character. 5 month's in and i've made major impacts in a war with long standing rivals to my region. 5 month's in I've made enough of a name for myself that alliances such as the Goons and PL put together 30-80 man fleets to hunt me down when wind of me in their space gets out - and they almost always go home empty handed after several hours of trying.
anyone wishing to try the game can ask me for a buddy code to get an extra week on their trial, and i'll offer the same deal - I'll split the plex $ 50/50 with you, and get you introductions to good corps for both F.W. and NRDS Null.
I don't really understand how a lot of players getting a bunch of Dilithium ORE will unbalance the system.
You can still only process 8K a day.
There's TONS of folks who have Thousands and Thousands of ORE piling up in their accounts.
That hasn't changed a dang thing as far as the Dilithium Trade goes.
This whole fiasco was purely a ding against the Dev's "predetermined path" they wanted us to take to end game.
They got annoyed that we found an easier way and now Everybody gets punished because a few of us bruised Their EGO's.
There's no reason to eliminate the Dilithium ORE reward, because They already have the 8K Daily Limit.
The only way around that is to BUY ZEN, which is Exactly what They want us to do anyway.
I call BS on the entire mess.
It's not the players fault that They don't have the foresight to test Their Own dang game properly...
:cool:
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Comments
Pretty much any MMO that wants raids to always be endgame will do exactly that. WOW has essentially done it quite a bit with their older raids.
Who wouldn't laugh at a guy threatening to kill himself? That sort of thing is pretty pathetic.
"Ooh, look at me, my life is so terrible I'm going to end it, but first I'll talk about it with my favorite MMO community."
EVE is not a 1v1 deathmatch game. It is a game that allows it's users to create the narrative of the universe. To enjoy it you either accept the limitations of an individual amongst the thousands. Or you refuse to accept those limitations and attempt to make in game history.
It really does showcase human nature in both it's glory and depravity within a safe place. I think aliens created that game to learn more about us sometimes.
Patrols in TD were not scaling to level. Players using this fact to bypass the leveling gating. Zero effort by factor of still getting level 50 exp rewards while being 5+ levels above the enemy, thus easily destroying them with little effort. Expand that criteria to groups of people flooding the content. This was a bug and unintended. Players used it to their advantage, thus exploit. This was not a concern. Then you expand the criteria of exploit. Max specialized players now earn dilithium for.......using the exploit. This now touches multiple systems. End result, they lock it down until such time as it can be rectified. The vocal minority rages.
Lets look at what ELSE is being addressed, though. EXP requirements loosened in multiple areas. Dificulty curve addressed, especially DR content ships being damage sponges. Ship Mastery made easier to accomplish......when it already required less SP than your charactor to reach the next grade. Ah, but it didn't earn skill points for ground missions, which is.....about one third of content. And they reduced requirement by one third.
Objectively......they listened to us.
And now I go back to waiting until maintenance is over so I can continue my reputation grind with Romulan Republic.
Are you talking about EVE still? i played it for several months a year or so ago. What you say is true but only to a certain point.
Just to state the obvious but you can only fly one ship at a time in EVE. When a vet player goes into a certain ship not all of their skill points bonuses are taken into effect. If they are in a battlecruiser for example and they have training for every weapon type and size and every ship type and every ship system imaginable that wont matter. Because the only bonuses that apply are the ones for the weapons the ship currently has equipped, the bonuses for the ship they are currently in and for the systems they currently have equipped. With specialization a new player can catch up to a vet player quite easily. Each ship and each piece of gear has a list of recommended and prerequisite skills that the player needs to be trained just to be able to sit in the ships. But once you max those out then you re good for that ship.
Can STO do this? :>
Destiny also does exactly that (recycles in its case about 99% of the game for the last 10 levels by adding more 0's to enemy health and damage with the expectation that you're going to grind your brains out on it anyway.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
You do realize it's not just 60 Levels anymore ... do you ? ... 50 to 60 isn't the issue at all ...
However there is a lot of fun to be had in the developing of the ships and their builds (well that's my enjoyment). Currently with the health problem it makes everything tedious. I mentioned this in another thread in that you could have a gear rating based off Resists and DPS potential of a ship, that in turn would be grouped with everyone elses Gear stat which in turn would adjust the scaling of instances on the fly. Not hard to do or implement, let alone think of. This would prevent areas not scaling correctly to the ships/players involved.
Not only that it can also link into the lvl system and if lvl matching is enabled it can adjust for gear below Mk 12 to match those of a lower lvl AND Gear rating.
It's incredibly bad to blame the playerbase for the issues in Tau Dewa when I know for a fact they were scaling correctly (if you checked the HP of the ships involved they were in the millions for ships like the Ravager which was about the only real boss ship), however the enemy composition made those Patrols a lot easier to clear than those in DR, where there was a higher composition of high hull ships.
For them to remove the ONE carrot for completing the Specialisation trees in that you then get dil from it, that is insulting. It's saying oh hey you can have a bonus for getting to that level of grind. OH **** sorry you can't have that because you can make too much dil now as we didn't bother to test it. Knee jerk reactions to idiotic design decisions.
All of the areas were functioning normally and within specification, it's the Dev's who failed to setup their game rather than an exploitation by the community.
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
Solves the problem.
Leave the STF's alone. Make them fun again.
That's one of the bigger issues for me, it makes me wonder what else will be changed/removed. They're going to run out of goodwill on the player side.
<Magical star trek name> 500 zen. Instantly upgrade 1 item to rank 14 epic quality.
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It is a peculiar phenomenon that we can imagine events that defy the laws of the universe.
What insane world do you live in where cats that are as big as houses chase yellow cars down street corners????
Yes, when the 7 Day old player suiced ganks a 7 Year old AFK miner in a belt :rolleyes:
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Join Date: Jul 2009
I left STO three years ago to play EVE. I've been back here about a month and I think these forums are far worse than anything you'll find in EVE. At least there we don't whine like children when something is mildly challenging. You don't understand the EVE community so you shouldn't be talking about it as if you do.
Firesworn Nation (@rswfire) - https://www.firesworn.com
You are completely wrong about this. It was said by a player at a fanfest event.
Also you do not need to get to the same level as a veteran. There are five levels to each skill -- the first four provide 80% of the benefit and can be done in a few days or less. Also you don't use all of your skills all of the time. You can be as proficient as a veteran in specific ships and roles.
You don't know what you're talking about.
Firesworn Nation (@rswfire) - https://www.firesworn.com
Nope, can't go there. If there really was an exploit, then shame on those who used it; and shame on me for having supported them!
At this point I'm not so convinced there really was an exploit, though. What I hear the devs currently saying, is (paraphrased):
"We found out people were actually reaping the Dilithium rewards you get after completing the entire Specialization tree; and they were doing it so proficiently, banding together, that we saw our Zen income threatened, and decided to call it an exploit."
Like I said earlier, if people were somehow able to fight low-level NPC's, on Elite, whilst retaining their own high levels, I would definitely call THAT 'exploitive behavior.' If not, Cryptic was just being petty.
Shortly before the patch with the intro of the upgrade system and the crafting system that grind immediately became 20/80 (20%play and 80% grind). now i was still able to swallow this because there was once again an end game coming, yes the dill hole got bigger but once my grinding to get back to the top of the hill was over i could let my everyday game play fill that hole after i hit lvl60.
But now i find out that you are taking the lvl60 dillithium away.... and why. not because it wasnt a great idea, not because it wouldn't lvl the game play for all players at end game..... because someone found a way to exploit it......
Well that's were im gonna say Stop.... Hold up...... One Moment Please...... instead of punishing the loyal players who still "actually want to play" and who are trying desperately to find a way to still enjoy this game, why are you not punishing the people who are exploiting your system. ban them, kick them, steal all of there worldly goods.......
But please stop punishing your player base! Those of us who are desperately trying to find a reason to keep playing.
They will not ban a bunch of people becouse they might lose potental sales. However they better start to realize if they keep punishing all their player base becouse a group found an exploit they will lose alot of thier loyal paying player base.
Speaking for myself as a loyal paying gold sub member since dec.2010 I am getting sick and tired of everytime their is a exploit I get smacked in the face and punished for something I never took part in I have no reason in the world to try and find a way to cheat the system even if it was their fault I still would'nt engage in it I have the time to grind and earn it the honest way. But yet I get punished like the rest.
So I have been rally thinking of dropping my sub the last few monthe's heck I even started a post awhile back to get info on what I would lose if I went f2p. I believe crptic you have put the final nail in the coffin come the 29th of oct Im going to drop down to f2p I will not renew my sub.
I say this not as a threat I am not stupid I know this game will go on without my 14.99 a month. However if alot of your paying playerbase like me decides to go f2p and has the ability to grind for anything they want ingame and never spend a dime your going to have a major problem. And the lord knows I hope you dont becouse I love this game but I am sick of being punished for your mistakes. Sorry to hi jack your post op.
There's an extra cause-and-effect piece here, though. Once enough people get new end-game and power-grind enough Dil, the Dil Exchange rates would be all but guaranteed to go through the roof. It might actually get to the point where it'd be less painful to spend the real money in ZEN, instead of grind a couple hundred Dil for 1 single ZEN.
So I don't believe this was a threat to ZEN profits.
I started playing EvE about 5 month's ago, using a 2 week buddy code given to me by a friend. I started by flying cheep Frig's in Faction Warfare when the group was on and minning when they wern't. At the start of the second week I was able to hold my own in fights against vets in the small and novice plex's, at the end of that second week I scored my first solo kill against one.
Once I subbed, my buddy sold the plex he got for referring me and gave me half. Yes it took me a couple months to get to the point where I was earning enough isk in game to cover my weekly losses. but the 350 mil from that plex covered them up until that point.
I made a second character to use in null, and joined up with a corp in Providence. since then I have started a planetary production system for repair paste and other fuels, and started a combat booster ( illegal drugs) production PoS and made a name for myself on every side of the galaxy for being able to sneak through enemy territory ( pretty much anyone not in provi is set red for me due to the corp) in unarmed cloaky minning ships and stealing any and every gas i need to produce those boosters.
I also have participated in several large battles (of close to 1,000+ players) over the last few months in our war with Test and Brave Newbies (who just tried recruiting me in Archage last week - lol). I was flying in the stealth bomber wings that determined the outcome of a couple of key systems through the war, just finished training for interceptors and will start helping out on gate camps and patrols while i work my way into interdictors.
5 months in and I earn enough from my P.I. and boosters to fund my losses in the war and on my F.W. character. 5 month's in and i've made major impacts in a war with long standing rivals to my region. 5 month's in I've made enough of a name for myself that alliances such as the Goons and PL put together 30-80 man fleets to hunt me down when wind of me in their space gets out - and they almost always go home empty handed after several hours of trying.
anyone wishing to try the game can ask me for a buddy code to get an extra week on their trial, and i'll offer the same deal - I'll split the plex $ 50/50 with you, and get you introductions to good corps for both F.W. and NRDS Null.
Me playing UT2k4 (red guy) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz0DnP7wXnU
You can still only process 8K a day.
There's TONS of folks who have Thousands and Thousands of ORE piling up in their accounts.
That hasn't changed a dang thing as far as the Dilithium Trade goes.
This whole fiasco was purely a ding against the Dev's "predetermined path" they wanted us to take to end game.
They got annoyed that we found an easier way and now Everybody gets punished because a few of us bruised Their EGO's.
There's no reason to eliminate the Dilithium ORE reward, because They already have the 8K Daily Limit.
The only way around that is to BUY ZEN, which is Exactly what They want us to do anyway.
I call BS on the entire mess.
It's not the players fault that They don't have the foresight to test Their Own dang game properly...
:cool:
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion