If Starfleet is not a military organization even with MACO within it, then what is the UFP military organization with its own fleet?
I love Gene Rodenberry as much as any big Star Trek fan, but his notion of Starfleet not being a military organization is one of those rare times that he is (here I go...) full of **B.S.**
Even watching TOS, when it was the ONLY Trek around, there's many examples of Starfleet fighting the Federation's wars. When you watch "Balance of Terror" the military vibe is so strong. Remember the testing of the M-5 program? What did Starfleet do to test the M-5 that was temporarily outfitted on the Enterprise? They conducted... wargames, sending 4-5 other Constitution-class ships to test the meshing of the M-5 program on the USS Enterprise.
Starfleet gets the warships (that's what they are... they're heavily armed, well defended, capable of doing many things, regardless of how touchie-feely Picard tries to make out Starfleet to be). If Starfleet does not indeed get the warships and are not a military organization, just who the hell had been fighting the enemies of the Federation in the many wars it has experienced?
Who were the ones dying in those famed, long duration, long ranged Exploration Missions?
Who shuttles around the Federation's Diplomats as well as usually the first to receive a foreign power's Diplomatic envoy?
Who has continuously fought the Klingon Empire for the Federation?
Who has continuously fought the Romulans for the Federation? Do recall that the threat of war with the Romulans and a MILITARY ALLIANCE against them was the very core reason why the Federation was made to begin with.
Who fought the Cardassians from before TNG's timeframe for the Federation?
Who, on behalf of the Federation, were the ones doing the fighting and dying in the Dominion War? Who were all those replacement ships being made for and who did they go to?
Who were getting the newly designed ships to use on behalf of defending the Federation?
There is only one answer.
Starfleet.
No matter how Gene Rodenberry didn't want to say that Starfleet was a military organization, no matter how much Picard and company scoffed and threw up their noses that Starfleet's main reason to exist was to defend the Federation... Starfleet at its very core a military organization. Its ships are indeed warships (it's utter b.s. the notion that Starfleet's ships are not warships despite being the ones fighting ALL the Federation's wars).
Starfleet does many things for the Federation as we see throughout the shows and movies. But it is first and foremost a military organization that deters hostile action against the Federation (their arms race with the Klingons and Romulans, for example), and if that fails, be the first to **** somebody up if they try to do something hostile against the Federation.
Sorry Gene and Picard... Starfleet IS a military organization.
And MACO? That's absorbed and a Pre-UFP organization. No longer exists.
Why isn't MACO at the war front with its own fleet? Why is Starfleet the only UFP battle fleet during the times of war? This concerns both, STO and Star Trek in general.
According to Memory Alpha, "Gene Roddenberry was very adamant that the Starfleet was not a military or a militaristic operation." Canonically, Starfleet denies being a military organization (TNG: "Peak Performance"):
MACO, on the other hand, stands for Military Assault Command Operations.
What is the UFP military fleet, if not Starfleet? Why isn't it MACO in STO?
The MACO in STO is Starfleet's special operations branch, in the same vein as the SEALS, and the USMC's STA/Force Recon.
Starfleet serves as the primary armed force of the UFP. It is, for all intents and purposes, the Federation's main military branch (There's also an entity known as the Federation Naval Patrol. We don't know much about it besides it's operations are presumably blue water/brown water, based on the theme of that Voyager episode).
The whole "not a military" garbage was part of the impossibly utopian TRIBBLE spewed in the first two seasons of TNG. While canon, it's a major contradiction.
However, utopian ideals weren't behind it all. Roddenberry despised the "militarized" Starfleet that existed from ST II through ST VI. And his relationship with Harve Bennett, the man who set the ball rolling for this "militarized" Star Trek, was less than stellar (Roddenberry considered Bennett to be an "interloper" and was pissed at being made a figurehead). The success of Bennett's ideas did nothing to placate Roddenberry.
The first two seasons of TNG were basically Roddenberry thumbing his nose up at the films, Bennett, and Paramount's execs. Hence, the whole "Starfleet is not a military" TRIBBLE.
It wasn't until Roddenberry's death that The Next Generation started resonating with fanbase at large.
So, that's why there seems to be a ridiculous contradiction. Roddenberry's supposed "idealism" mixed with bitterness and a petty control freak attitude. One that alienated many of the old Star Trek insiders who was with the franchise since the 1960's.
Starfleet, despite the delusions of it not being so, functions as the Federation's military (or, at least, the main branch of it) geared for defense of Federation territory and interests. The Roddenberry purists either should acknowledge that (or at least maintain an open mind about it), or continue to follow the contradictory status born from Roddenberry's "moonbattery". "Military" and "exploration" are not contradictory concepts.
Thank you for the excellent description of not only Starfleet's purpose and structure, but the whole "Starfleet is not a military" tripe from early TNG, and why it made NO sense. GR was a genius, but the hyper-utopia presented in the first two seasons of TNG just had so many inherent logical problems--Starfleet suddenly not being military even though it was a military organization from TOS on being one of the big ones.
There was also that odd bit about the Klingons having "joined" the Federation, implying they were members and not just in a treaty.
And ironically enough one of the most dangerous and deadly WMD in all of Star Trek canon didn't come from Starfleet. The Genesis Device was invented by civilian scientists who were all contemptuous to some degree or other of the "militarized" Starfleet. (I never liked Carol Marcus much, at all because she kept Kirk from his son for terrible reasons and let him grow up hating his own father.) Starfleet was put in a supervisory role over the Genesis Project not because they wanted to weaponize it, but because it was already a one-torpedo planet killer and none of its designers seemed to even be aware of how freaking terrifying it was. Kirk never really seems enthusiastic about it--when he argues in its favor at all, there's no real passion behind it.
I can't imagine there were too many people in Starfleet actually happy about the idea of Genesis existing, but the Federation Council wrote the orders--and apparently couldn't think two moves ahead to realize how destabilizing Genesis' existence would be--so there wasn't much they could do about it. I can't imagine that many people actually being surprised when the Klingons flipped their lids.
The Klingons' reaction was murderous and absolutely wrong, but they were right about one thing: Genesis was an absolutely horrifying weapon of mass destruction, whether it was meant to be or not. McCoy knew it, too. And I think Kirk and Spock did, as well. Kirk arguably couldn't argue against it as well as he should have because 1) he was having a midlife crisis and 2) the chief scientist was his ex and the mother of his child (who he was instructed to stay away from). I'm not sure what Spock actually thought about it. He appeared to be playing the devil's advocate just to aggravate McCoy.
The worst thing is Genesis doesn't work for its intended purpose. The protomatter inside makes the newly formed planet become unstable and explode. All it's really good for is General Order 24.
as others have said starfleet is the primary military/defense organization against agressors why do you think majority of there ships are heavily armed? Course Starfleet isn't just military defense, starfleet is also the army or marines or the ground pounders (no offense meant if someone takes offense to that) also Starfleet is the exploration and scientific arm of starfleet as well, and that starfleet absorbed all the other organizations that use to be out there. So again as others have said
Starfleet is the Military/defense, exploration, scientific discovery and research and anything else I missed
I actually agree 100 percent with this. It was one of the points of my post, and if that didn't come across clearly, I screwed up. What I meant was that Starfleet is a single organization with two very different mandates (one peaceful and one military/defensive), and it's rarely doing both things at the same exact moment. This is not a structure I've ever seen in the real world, which is why I think so many people don't really get Starfleet.
Starfleet is basically what would happen if the US Navy and the US Geological Survey and the Red Cross/Doctors Without Borders were a single organization. It works, and works very well, but it confuses the TRIBBLE out of outside observers. Of course the Enterprise or Voyager must be a warship, they think. Why else would it have enough guns to glass a planet if it was just an explorer. (Yes, even Voyager has enough.)
That's the point. There is no real-life counterpart to Starfleet. It is a fictional ideal of a huge, space-faring, paramilitary organization that tends to every need that arises from being a space-faring civilization, made up of hundreds of worlds. I never got why people have to almost violently search for a template of the 20th century to put that organization in. The closest I ever got to find some sort of real-life counterpart was the former German border protection (BGS) which was characterized as a paramilitary police unit with combatant status in the case of national defense, had military and civil jurisdiction and ultimately was under civil authority, just like Starfleet. This of course only applies to the policing/defnsive functions and doesn't take into account the exploration, relief and science branches.
I love TNG and the Galaxy class, but the 2360s Galaxy was itself a monument to that era of the Federation's arrogance. It was the most heavily armed thing Starfleet had, with the best equipment and the best crews. The Enterprise-D was the best of the best. By definition it would've been--and was--routinely sent to very dangerous trouble spots, and attracted unexpected trouble just by existing. Part of its standing orders were to go into danger/mystery/something that ate up one of its sister ships/etc. and poke at it for science.
And yet it carried civilian children, almost always with no chance to get them off the ship if things got really hairy. That is arrogance of a most dangerous sort, and it's a miracle there weren't more civilian casualties. There would have had to have been if not for plot armor. Even the people who made the series admitted how stupid carrying so many civilians on the Enterprise was. Not that anyone onboard wanted to take infants and children to fight the Borg at Wolf-359, but they were put in position so that that's what they had to do. The dream of a floating peaceful city in space is excellent and one that should be strived for. But it doesn't mesh with the mission profile of the Federation flagship, which at least half the time is "go poke this mysterious and possibly dangerous and deadly new thing that possibly destroyed this other ship/planet/space station."
While I do agree that taking civilians to *every* encounter is irresponsible (although in DS9 it was stated that the Oddyssey unloaded the civilians at a starbase prior to going into combat) keep in mind that the Ent-D did not ferry around hundreds of civilians just for the sake of it. Starfleet vessels like the Ent-D were supposed to operate for years in deep-space. The civilians aboard were completely made up of families of the officers serving aboard. I am pretty sure they talked that over in great detail before sticking with their mom or dad/wife or husband. Officers on a Starfleet ship with a certain service time could ask for their families to come aboard and this was meant to reduce overall stress and fatigue being on missions that are supposed to take you into deep space for the entire youth of your children. It is a concept I actually *like* about Starfleet. But like I said, if you already know you will face combat, leaving the civilians at a starbase is probably the best thing to do.
I am almost positive the 2370s era Galaxies being fielded in the Dominion War were internally different given that they were more heavily armed, and there were so MANY of them--I always got the sense they were originally very difficult to build. And even after the war no one was going to load them up with children because taking children into the unknown is a horribly irresponsible idea.
The DW-Galaxies were scrambled and to around 70% "empty". That's a fact stated in the technical manual According to taking children into the unknown see above. Also, fictional future, different time and mindset.
The Federation (and thus, Starfleet) needs marines and war-capable vessels (which it most certainly has in abundance) is because it is charged with fighting wars. It is a navy. Navies have or transport marine ground force components to fulfill one of the basic functions they are responsible for. Did the MACO arm shrink during the more peaceful period of early TNG? Almost certainly. Did it ever completely cease to be? Almost certainly not. Picard's ship didn't carry MACOs because it wasn't going to war and wasn't responsible for moving troops to trouble spots.
It depends on your definition of "marine". By it's very credo, Starfleet doesn't have soldiers as it is not classified as a military, as much as some people don't want to hear that. It is best comparable to a paramilitary police organization. The ground troops you mention were regular Starfleet Officers in dedicated gear. Throughout the series, from TOs to TNG to DS9, we see the ship's crew get into combat areas. They actively go to battle planetside and the troops are always made up of Starfleet Security personnel. While there is equipment, there is no different structure in ground forces and ship crew. MACOs post-ENT only exist in STO and they didn't exist prior to ENT at all where they were clearly Earth military,not Starfleet. And considering Starfleet's mission profile, you don't need a separate branch to begin with.
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By the way, kudos to such an well worded and thorough posting, unfortunately I can only react to certain elements of it, but I do understand where you are coming from now. I'm not a native speaker, so it might be my fault that some things slipped my attention
The idea that Starfleet isn't the UFP's military is ludicrous.
And nobody doubts that they are. They are the military arm of the UFP but they are by definition not a military. Really, most quarrel just comes from terminology that expects us to send "Battleships" and "Soldiers" into combat and not "Explorers" and "Officers".
By the way, as a general statement, there is no "peaceful exploration". Exploration in the Star Trek sense means spearheading into the unknown depth of space with a very high probability that whatever you find wants to horribly murder your face. This is why "Explorrs" are super heavy battleship-esque armed vessels.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I'm still struggling to understand why just because Starfleet performs the duties of the military it must therefore be the military. For most of human history, there was no military, but there was plenty of war; the concept of a standing army is a relatively modern one. In "ye olden days" (a highly specific time period :P ) when a war needed fighting, one gave everyone a sword and told them to go and kill all the enemies who had a sword, but these levies were not the military. They wore chain-mail, and uniforms, they knew how to wield a sword, follow orders and kill a man, but once the war was over they just went back to being bakers or masons or peasants.
Putting a gun on a ship does not make it a warship, fighting a war does not make a man a soldier; Starfleet is only a military when it needs to be.
I'm still struggling to understand why just because Starfleet performs the duties of the military it must therefore be the military. For most of human history, there was no military, but there was plenty of war; the concept of a standing army is a relatively modern one. In "ye olden days" (a highly specific time period :P ) when a war needed fighting, one gave everyone a sword and told them to go and kill all the enemies who had a sword, but these levies were not the military. They wore chain-mail, and uniforms, they knew how to wield a sword, follow orders and kill a man, but once the war was over they just went back to being bakers or masons or peasants.
Putting a gun on a ship does not make it a warship, fighting a war does not make a man a soldier; Starfleet is only a military when it needs to be.
Indeed. Add to that that service in Starfleet seems to be entirely voluntary and it doesn't seem to be a big hussle to resign and rejoin as you please reinforces, at least in my opinion, this "militia" feel to it.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I'm still struggling to understand why just because Starfleet performs the duties of the military it must therefore be the military.
Fundamentally, you've hit the nail on the head. Starfleet is Starfleet. We can make various comparisons to real-world organizations, but it's pretty clear that there's no direct analogue. It's its own thing.
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
Fundamentally, you've hit the nail on the head. Starfleet is Starfleet. We can make various comparisons to real-world organizations, but it's pretty clear that there's no direct analogue. It's its own thing.
And if you think about the timeline and the universe there, being all three makes sense.
If you're going to have an exploration force, they need to be prepared to run across new people. One of two things usually happens when you meet a new culture with peaceful intentions, you establish peaceful relations or you get attacked y someone who doesn't have peaceful intentions. That exploration force needed to be prepared for both, so they get trained in diplomacy and combat So because they needed to know both anyway, Starfleet as the main exploration force for the Federation also became the main diplomatic force and the main defense force.
It is a military, an exploration force, a diplomatic corps all in one.
Has it ever occurred to you that Picard, and Roddenberry, were factually wrong?
Let's pose a formal definition of a military. My typical definition is "a legally and internationally recognized armed organization charged with defending a nation's interests from foreign aggression". Any objections?
Guess what. That's been part of Starfleet's job from the word "go". That Roddenberry disagreed is a personal problem on his end and does not mesh with what was actually written. Starfleet isn't only a military force, but that's a major part of the job.
Dear God, I really hate Picard sometimes. The man had his head so far up his TRIBBLE he could probably taste what he had for breakfast.
What if they refuse the term that it's a military organization because it has so many purposes that got nothing to do with war? saying it's a military organization, especially in the context it is usually used, is reducing it to a military purpose and nothning else.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
To the OP, they've Marines in space basically. (Some other term for that I'm sure...) Marines are part of the Department of the Navy. If they've still around in STO, I'm sure it's the same way.
Think about it: Starfleet = Navy; MACO = MArine COrps. That's as militaristic as it gets.
A navy is "a fleet of [ . . . ] military vessels". Furthermore:
The word formerly denoted fleets of both commercial and military nature. In modern usage "navy" used alone always denotes a military fleet, although the term "merchant navy" for a commercial fleet still incorporates the non-military word sense.
In most nations, the term "naval", as opposed to "navy", is interpreted as encompassing all maritime military forces, e.g., navy, marine / marine corps, and coast guard forces.
The ship's "NCC-1701" registry number stemmed from "NC" being one of the international aircraft registration codes assigned to the United States; the second "C" was added for differentiation. According to The Making of Star Trek, "NCC" is the Starfleet abbreviation for "Naval Construction Contract", comparable to what the U.S. Navy would call a hull number.
Kirk: "I'm a soldier, not a diplomat. I can only tell you the truth."
Kirk states that he is a soldierand he's a captain of a shipbut Picard states that Starfleet is not a military organization. All of this is under Roddenberry's supervision, who was "very adamant that the Starfleet was not a military or a militaristic operation". You can't have it both ways. Moreover, by Roddenberry's logic, soldiers don't lie and diplomats do. Isn't it ironic that Starfleet supposedly prefers diplomacy, while being a de facto military organization?
Just look at all the chartered merchant and trade companies throughout history, weather it's any of the East India companies, or the Hanseatic League. None of them were military organizations, but they did have armed warships, soldiers and were even waging war.
The East India Companies were trade monopolies who warred with each othernot against military fleets by themselves (excluding joint efforts)for control. The governments behind them still had a navy who would engage in a full-scale war with another navy. For example, the Royal Navy existed in parallel to the English East India Company.
At the height of its power in the late 14th century, the merchants of the Hanseatic League succeeded in using their economic clout and sometimes their military mighttrade routes required protection and the League's ships sailed well-armedto influence imperial policy.
Where the UFP is an empire, the Starfleet is its military. These examples actually strengthen my point. Otherwise, the comparison to a "merchant navy" is inapplicable (see: Star Trek: First Contact):
Picard: "The economics of the future is somewhat different. You see, money doesn't exist in the 24th century... The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives."
MACO itself simply doesn't have the manpower to run a battle fleet. Instead, they work alongside regular Starfleet and Battle Group Omega, providing special forces teams and other specialist roles.
If MACO is a special forces unit attached to Starfleet, while the latter is the only UFP battle fleet during a full-scale war, then it makes Starfleet a de facto navya military fleet.
I think a good way of looking at 25th-century Starfleet is similar to the Culture's fleets and/or Contact. They aren't technically a navy, and generally don't act as one (mostly for political reasons), but in a time of war they are all quite capable of becoming combat-effective very quickly. Section 31 and Special Circumstances also match up quite nicely.
Contact historically acts as its [Culture's] military arm in times of war, while Special Circumstances can be considered its secret service and its military intelligence. [ . . . ] The Culture had converted enough of its forces to military footing. [ . . . ] Culture's sentient warships, the most powerful of these being war-converted GSVs, which are described as powerful enough to oppose whole enemy fleets. Culture military craft are often designed to be ugly and graceless.
Starfleet took over all military duties from previous organizations. [ . . . ] Having MACOs in STO as part of Starfleet makes absolutely no sense. [ . . . ] - it is a ethical slap in the face what the UFP and Starfleet try to be.
Apparently, what Starfleet does and what it claims to be are two different stories.
But even in STOs context it is clear that MACOs [ . . . ] are [ . . .] regular, high-ranking Starfleet officers that recieve special training and equipment and join small "commando" operations when needed, the majority of ground combat is still performed by regular security personnel.
The space combat is performed by Starfleet, which denies being a military. There's also a MACO space set, which is more advanced than Starfleet's standard offerings.
The Federation was still what it had always been. They were still peaceful explorers who knew how to fight when they had to. They were still the heroes and the kind of humans we all wish we could be.
Starfleet was still the UFP military organization despite Roddenberry's "vision" and Picard's claims. Such a deception is not at all heroic. By the way, the UFP isn't just "humans", if you're referring to deeds.
As for the MACOs, [ . . . ] they're marines. [ . . . ] After the Dominion War it's impossible for anyone in-universe to reasonably argue Starfleet is not a combat navy when it needs to be.
If MACOs are marines, then Starfleet is a navy; not just "when it needs to be".
No one asks why the US Marines don't have their own fleet. It's understood that the US Navy will get them where they need to go.
Maybe it's due to the fact that the U.S. Navy is a military branch of the U.S. Armed Forces. In fact, its official website uses the .mil extension, which is reserved exclusively for military.
That's basically the point.
The premise of this thread is a joke, GR and morals or Starfleets status as a military not withstanding.
The premise is fine but it's clear that you're not getting the point, considering what you quoted. The U.S. Navy is a military. Starfleet denies being a militaryat least, Picard doesand so does Roddenberry, for that matter.
MACO was never a Naval force. If Earth would have some armada of it's own, it would just be the United Earth Navy or something like that, to supplement Starfleet.
MACO is a military organization that deals with space technology in STO (see: MACO Space). Starfleet denies being a military organization. It's only natural to question why MACO doesn't have a navy.
MACO plays no role in this entirely. Even if it wasn't absorbed into Starfleet... (but it was absorbed into Starfleet according to STO, which we are discussing here).
On the contrary, your "ground forces" argument for MACO is based on the ENT canon, while my argument takes STO with its MACO space set into account. If Starfleet denies being a military, while MACO is a military, it makes Starfleet's claim a lie. STO is based on Star Trek, after all.
The majority of Starfleet personnel doesn't sign up to fight. [ . . . ] No power would take on the UFP and Starfleet.
Strange, considering that Klingons have been portrayed as a recurring threat to the UFP throughout most of the Star Trek. Starfleet's standard holodeck programdesigned by MACOduring the tutorial mission in STO, is an attack on the Klingons.
The Federation-Klingon War (2372-73) describes the UFP rapidly losing ground and only hoping to regain what was lost. The best they could do was to slow the Klingons down, not stop them. In the meantime, a 1/3rd of the Klingon navy was still on the offensive in the Cardassian space.
the feddiebrel defiant is a PT boat with an asinine level of plot armour. not a proper warship like blind propagandists and mary sue writers would have you believe.
Kasidy Yates arrives and asks O'Brien if he's uncomfortable with her being on the Defiant, given that she's a civilian and the Defiant is a warship. O'Brien tells her he isn't, and that they've had civilians aboard before.
Starfleet typically avoids using the warship classification, instead applying euphemisms such as "escort" and "tactical cruiser" for the Defiant-class and Prometheus-class, respectively.
Starfleet is a single organization with two very different mandates (one peaceful and one military/defensive), and it's rarely doing both things at the same exact moment.
One does not exclude the other, considering that Starfleet is the only UFP battle fleet at the times of war, but, according to Picard, it does:
Picard: "Starfleet is not a military organization. It's purpose is exploration."
Starfleet is basically what would happen if the US Navy and the US Geological Survey and the Red Cross/Doctors Without Borders were a single organization.
That would still make it a de facto military organization. Do you even realize that military has scientists, engineers and various technical roles? Read the article titled "Science in the military":
According to the U.S. Department of Defense, out of more than 1.4 million people on active duty in the U.S. Army, Navy, Marine Corps, and Air Force, at least 200,000 perform science, engineering, and technical roles. Some of those people are building robots. Others are remotely piloting underwater vehicles. According to experts interviewed by Science Careers, all share one characteristic: They are military first, scientists second.
Science-minded soldiers and sailors must be comfortable with military life: conforming to strict rules, codes, and honor systems, and being ready to participate in combat missions if necessary. Serving in the military can be dangerous even in peacetime, so its important to understand the nature of the commitment. But as long as you know what to expect, the military can offer a wide range of opportunities for challenging and rewarding careers.
Does this ring a bell to anyone? Starfleet doesn't "unload" its supposed "non-military" part of the crew somewhere before going into battle; it's the same staff and the same crew.
That's been part of Starfleet's job from the word "go". That Roddenberry disagreed is a personal problem on his end and does not mesh with what was actually written. Starfleet isn't only a military force, but that's a major part of the job.
Are you even aware that Roddenberry created the original Star Trek television series? Picard explicitly stated that Starfleet wasn't a military organization, not that it "wasn't only" or "much more than" that.
So, that's why there seems to be a ridiculous contradiction. Roddenberry's supposed "idealism" mixed with bitterness and a petty control freak attitude. One that alienated many of the old Star Trek insiders who was with the franchise since the 1960's.
Except, the on-screen evidence already contradicted Roddenberry's "vision" in the 1960's original series, which he created and had control over.
Starfleet doesn't have soldiers as it is not classified as a military. [ . . . ] They are the military arm of the UFP but they are by definition not a military.
Putting a gun on a ship does not make it a warship, fighting a war does not make a man a soldier; Starfleet is only a military when it needs to be.
Starfleet does all of the above. Moreover, Kirk explicitly stated that he was a "soldier" in TOS: "Errands of Mercy". Saying "when it needs to be" doesn't excuse Starfleet of being a de facto military at any other time.
Service in Starfleet seems to be entirely voluntary and it doesn't seem to be a big hussle to resign and rejoin as you please reinforces, at least in my opinion, this "militia" feel to it.
Military service, is service by an individual or group in an army or other militia, whether as a chosen job or as a result of an involuntary draft (conscription).
Starfleet is Starfleet. We can make various comparisons to real-world organizations, but it's pretty clear that there's no direct analogue. It's its own thing.
There's a direct analogue: a navy. Moreover, actions speak louder than words.
Saying it's a military organization, especially in the context it is usually used, is reducing it to a military purpose and nothning else.
Do you realize that historically, exploration has been largely done by the naval vessels? Starfleet's purpose has been militaristic from the start. That makes Picard's statement and Roddenberry's "vision" a lie.
Of course, Starfleet being a military organization drastically changes things. The UFP expansion with Starfleet vessels now equals a military expansion.
When you join Starfleet, you join the UFP Navya military organization.
Think about it: Starfleet = Navy; MACO = MArine COrps. That's as militaristic as it gets.
The ship's "NCC-1701" registry number stemmed from "NC" being one of the international aircraft registration codes assigned to the United States; the second "C" was added for differentiation. According to The Making of Star Trek, "NCC" is the Starfleet abbreviation for "Naval Construction Contract", comparable to what the U.S. Navy would call a hull number.
Neither MACO or NCC have any confirmed in universe meaning. The whole MArine COrps stuff if fanon, it could stand for anything. Ditto for NCC.
That's not to say MACO couldn't stand for marine something or other, but it was never mentioned on the show.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Because it makes it a de facto military organization; because actions speak louder than words.
And they are also a de facto (and de jure) scientific, diplomatic and exploratory agency, so why does military connotations override that? Why is their military purpose automatically their primary function in your eyes? Why is Starfleet a military that also does exploratory duties as opposed to explorers that also do military duties?
What is the UFP military fleet, if not Starfleet? Why isn't it MACO in STO?
Because Starfleet and the federation are Mary Sues. They are internally and rationally inconsistent. That´s fine when its a TV show where only the briefest glimpses of either are shown. But in a game where the players are active members of Starfleet things need to make more sense. You think I´m totally off base here? In all of Star Trek there has only been one, ONE character that was a Federation citizen but not in Starfleet and wasn´t hyped to be in it. One. And he was usually not central to the story.
We are expected to keep believing that a bunch of scientific types are ALSO the military? What nonsense. Section 31 actually alleviates the cognitive dissonance issues quite a bit, but even they can´t be everywhere all the time! Star Trek only works within a particular universe with particular rules that allow the incredibly inept and relatively hapless Federation to work at all. For starfleet to make any sense you know that there must a real military somewhere because Starfleet just doesn´t make sense once players from the real world are asked to step in the shoes of a starfleet captain in STO. If anything I´d say the players should be some sort of off shoot, maybe mercs working for the federation? The way its set up you know that PMCs must be rampant in the alpha quadrant.
What if they refuse the term that it's a military organization because it has so many purposes that got nothing to do with war? saying it's a military organization, especially in the context it is usually used, is reducing it to a military purpose and nothning else.
this right here, the starfleet officers refuse to say its a military organizations because it isn't just a military organization, it is an organization that is more than military. Besides military it is also exploration, diplomatic, scientific, research etc. Starfleet will defend themselves if they have to but starfleet would rather do anything other than fight but again they will defend themselves and other members if they have to. Starfleet usually tries diplomacy but if that doesn't work then they fight.
I'm not going to quote Karmog's mile long post, but the answer to this question is simple.
Starfleet is the federation's military and it is not the federation's military.
Why? because nether of them actually exist! They are fictional constructions, they are whatever the writer of that episode or movie decides they are.
There is no consistency, why try to make it consistent?
Let's all stroll down to the Deus Ex Machina room, AKA the transporter room. It does everything the story needs it to, anything else be damned. The charactization of how it works during "second chances" is vastly different from say 'Realm of Fear" earlier in the season.
Realm of fear implies that you come out exactly as you go in, and that you are conscious the entire time.
and as it stands, this is the canon description of how the transporter works, as stated in ENT 4x10.
But half the time is goes off in some other direction.
Because that;s what the writers want for that story.
Everywhere I look, people are screaming about how bad Cryptic is.
What's my position?
That people should know what they're screaming about!
(paraphrased from "The Newsroom)
When starfleet is said to be not a military organization its a statement of idealogy and purpose, the Primary duty andpurpose and duty of Starfleet is science, exploration, and diplomancy. To search out new life and new civilizations, not to conduct war.
But just like Columbus didn't do his exploring unarmed, neither is starfleet unarmed.
As I said its about idealogy, about how the members of Starfleet see thier primary purpose.
Comparesion todays militaries Canadian Armed Forces, The American Army/Airforce/Navy, and so on see thier primary purpose as being a military, they have done other things, such as build homes in other countries, help during natural disasters, science, but first and formost thier top obiligation and thier reason for being is to fight wars, everything else is gravy.
Now take the RCMP, they're police force, not a military. But doing one of thier first acts was in fact to fight a minor civil war, to put down a metis rebellian. They fought battles. This does not make the RCMP a military, law and order is thier primary function, but at one time acting as a military reserve force before Canada had a proper military was one of thier responsiblities.
So Starfleet is a Scientific/Humanitarian Space organisation that acts as a reservist force because a interplanetary dedicated military is against the UFP's core peaceful idealogy. They're not complete pacifists they believe in self defence, but it has an idealogical undercurrent that is opposed to a dedicated military and what having one says about thier priorities and beliefs.
Starfleet are Military reservist organization, not a military organization.
Now MACO is likely an earth military organization for Planetary Earth defence, just as in Game Bajor has of its own. During a time of war they maybe go off world to seek out threats, but normally they're focus is staying prepared just in case an attack comes out of nowhere against thier planet. They maybe even have ships dedicated to solar system defence, but not designed for intersellar warfare, which why they'd rely upon starfleet during a time of war.
And while they wouldn't be apart of starfleet just like the Bajoran Militia isn', they are linked enough that personal
can transfere from one origanization to the other.
Now the KDF is designed different, they're underlining idealogy is different, they're a military designed for conquest and defence of the empire, not for science/Exploration/Diplomancy, although they do conduct those things as well. Still when they do Eploration/Science/and Diplomancy its usually for military purposes first and formost, but they're not stupid so they they also take advantage of other opportunities as well.
Romulan Republic is more frontier action, they're a military force, but the focus is more on anything that makes sure the fledgling republic servives, then a didicated universal idealogy.
When starfleet is said to be not a military organization its a statement of idealogy and purpose, the Primary duty andpurpose and duty of Starfleet is science, exploration, and diplomancy. To search out new life and new civilizations, not to conduct war.
But just like Columbus didn't do his exploring unarmed, neither is starfleet unarmed.
As I said its about idealogy, about how the members of Starfleet see thier primary purpose.
Comparesion todays militaries Canadian Armed Forces, The American Army/Airforce/Navy, and so on see thier primary purpose as being a military, they have done other things, such as build homes in other countries, help during natural disasters, science, but first and formost thier top obiligation and thier reason for being is to fight wars, everything else is gravy.
Now take the RCMP, they're police force, not a military. But doing one of thier first acts was in fact to fight a minor civil war, to put down a metis rebellian. They fought battles. This does not make the RCMP a military, law and order is thier primary function, but at one time acting as a military reserve force before Canada had a proper military was one of thier responsiblities.
So Starfleet is a Scientific/Humanitarian Space organisation that acts as a reservist force because a interplanetary dedicated military is against the UFP's core peaceful idealogy. They're not complete pacifists they believe in self defence, but it has an idealogical undercurrent that is opposed to a dedicated military and what having one says about thier priorities and beliefs.
Starfleet are Military reservist organization, not a military organization.
Now MACO is likely an earth military organization for Planetary Earth defence, just as in Game Bajor has of its own. During a time of war they maybe go off world to seek out threats, but normally they're focus is staying prepared just in case an attack comes out of nowhere against thier planet. They maybe even have ships dedicated to solar system defence, but not designed for intersellar warfare, which why they'd rely upon starfleet during a time of war.
And while they wouldn't be apart of starfleet just like the Bajoran Militia isn', they are linked enough that personal
can transfere from one origanization to the other.
Now the KDF is designed different, they're underlining idealogy is different, they're a military designed for conquest and defence of the empire, not for science/Exploration/Diplomancy, although they do conduct those things as well. Still when they do Eploration/Science/and Diplomancy its usually for military purposes first and formost, but they're not stupid so they they also take advantage of other opportunities as well.
Romulan Republic is more frontier action, they're a military force, but the focus is more on anything that makes sure the fledgling republic servives, then a didicated universal idealogy.
y
s
exactly this right here Starfleet is the primarily scientific, research, exploration,diplomatic and neet new races etc. Starfleet is never un armed because there will be times that they will have to defend themselves when necessary and fight a war after they have exhasted all diplomatic channels to try and stop the war but in case the diplomatic channels they try several dozen times or more they mobilize starfleet and prepare for war as a last option if diplomacy fails
Neither MACO or NCC have any confirmed in universe meaning. The whole MArine COrps stuff if fanon, it could stand for anything. Ditto for NCC.
That's not to say MACO couldn't stand for marine something or other, but it was never mentioned on the show.
"MArine COrps" is a logical conclusion based on facts. Canonically, MACO has been confirmed as Military Assault Command Operations.
NCC has been confirmed as Naval Construction Contract in "The Making of Star Trek", which was created by Roddenberry and Whitfield. In this case, an in-universe confirmation is unnecessary.
And they are also a de facto (and de jure) scientific, diplomatic and exploratory agency, so why does military connotations override that? Why is their military purpose automatically their primary function in your eyes? Why is Starfleet a military that also does exploratory duties as opposed to explorers that also do military duties?
None of the above is unique to a non-military organization. Furthermore, all Starfleet officers hold a military rank on top of their occupation and are required to follow a military chain of command in any of their duties.
the starfleet officers refuse to say its a military organizations because it isn't just a military organization. [ . . . ] Besides military it is also exploration, diplomatic, scientific, research etc.
None of that is unique to a non-military organization. Moreover, all Starfleet officers hold military ranks and have to follow a military chain of command, no matter their assignments.
Now take the RCMP, they're police force, not a military. But [ . . . ] they fought battles. [ . . . ] at one time acting as a military reserve force before Canada had a proper military was one of thier responsiblities.
Reports from Army officers surveying the territory led to the recommendation that a mounted force of between 100 to 150 mounted riflemen could maintain law and order.
The British Army and the Royal Navy were responsible for Canada's "proper" military, until it created its own. Furthermore, the RCMP ranks are mostly those of a police force; the Starfleet ranks are those of a military.
Starfleet is a Scientific/Humanitarian Space organisation that acts as a reservist force because a interplanetary dedicated military is against the UFP's core peaceful idealogy. [ . . . ] Starfleet are Military reservist organization, not a military organization.
A military reserve force is a military organization composed of citizens of a country who combine a military role or career with a civilian career.
That still makes Starfleet a military organization. Furthermore, having to follow a military chain of command in all of the Starfleet careers, makes it a de facto dedicated military organization.
"MArine COrps" is a logical conclusion based on facts. Canonically, MACO has been confirmed as Military Assault Command Operations.
Well in that case it canonically stands for Military Assault Command Operations, no mention of Marines at all. It could mean they are Army or just a heavily armed Security decision such as Military Police.
NCC has been confirmed as Naval Construction Contract in "The Making of Star Trek", which was created by Roddenberry and Whitfield. In this case, an in-universe confirmation is unnecessary.
Yeah, that's not canon.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
The MACO = Marine Corps analogy is entirely specualtive. Just because it sounds good to you doesn't mean it is it's intented purpose. As stated it standds for Military Assault Command Operations and are canonically part of Earth Military, not Starfleet. STO just uses the term due to fanservice, but STO is not canon as well.
NCC was based on a real life choice, but not the Naval Construction Contract. It was taken because of the registry *civilian* aircraft used in the US and the second C was added "just because". Maybe Rodenberry decided later on, but MA cites the guy that came up with the idea if I remember correctly. Remember, back when TOS started there wasn't even Starfleet or a UFP, those things were decided seven or eight episodes in. Canonically, as in on-screen reference we never got a explanation for either NCC, NX or even USS.
Also, keep in mind Starfleet is under civil command and also has civil jurisdiction akin to a police force. So Starfleet is at best a paramilitary, it doesn't matter what the ranks are called, besides US emergency services also use a lot of those ranks. You could compare Starfleet's military role to that of the coast guard as being a military branch, not a full-time military (at this point I apologize if I use the terms wrong as I am not an US citizen, but my quick research shows that the coast guard operates by a presidential mandate only in times of war as part of the military, before it operates akin to an emergency service) But as the UFP doesn't have a standing military, Starfleet is their military arm and "drafted" in times of war. Before that there is no armed service in the UFP, just Starfleet. So it's a paramilitary by today's standards.
But last but not least keep in mind this is fiction. Star Trek is supposed to depict humanity evolved past militaries (which doesn't mean defenseles). Starfleet doesn't have a present day equivalent, it just doesn't exist. It's supposed to be a service that is completely in charge of all space-faring business of the UFP which just happens to include defense as they have the heavy armed ships to begin with. It's just that. There is so much in-canon and behind the cameras that counters your fixation on "primary military service", although admittedly there is also quite a few inconsistencies, but like I said much of it was made up on the fly to begin with.
It might be a tough fact to accept for a lot of servicepeople, but Starfleet is not meant to be the branch you served in
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
It could mean they are Army or just a heavily armed Security decision such as Military Police.
No, it couldn'tnot with a shark on their patch, which indicates a maritime military force, like marines. Another possibility would be Navy SEALs but the ranks don't match like MACO and marine corps.
A special case is made for "non-fiction" reference books. [ . . . ] Unlike the novels and novelizations, these reference manuals have never been explicitly named as non-canon. [ . . . ] Roddenberry himself considered it part of the "background" of Star Trek. [ . . . ] Viacom Senior Director Harry Lang left no doubt that he considers the reference books as canon.
"As long as Gene Roddenberry is involved in it, he is the final word on what is Star Trek." Richard Arnold.
The MACO = Marine Corps analogy is entirely specualtive.
The evidence proves otherwise: If Starfleet is a de facto navy, then MACO is a de facto marine corps. The latter uses the mobility of a navy to rapidly deliver its forces. The [url="ttp://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100409062951/memoryalpha/en/images/7/70/MACO_Enterprise_logo.svg"]MACO logo[/url] also depicts a shark, which indicates a maritime military force, like marines. Another possibility would be Navy SEALs but the ranks don't match like they do between MACO and marine corps.
With the release of The Animated Series DVD, the studio appears to have changed its stance, and is leaning towards the animated series being part of established Star Trek canon.
TAS was also created by Roddenberry, even if he wasn't satisfied with it "canonically".
A line included in the script for Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country but not in the actual film was to have established that Starfleet was under civilian control.
That's not "on-screen". Otherwise, Starfleet's actions as a military organization speak louder than words.
It doesn't matter what the ranks are called, besides US emergency services also use a lot of those ranks.
It does matter. Starfleet ranks are the closest to the British Royal Navy and the U.S. Navy, not the emergency services. Moreover, it is the only UFP battle fleet during the times of war, making it a de facto military organization.
It's supposed to be a service that is completely in charge of all space-faring business of the UFP which just happens to include defense as they have the heavy armed ships to begin with.
Actions speaks louder than words. Being the only UFP battle fleet during the times of war, with military ranks and chain of command at all times, makes it a de facto military organization.
(...)
The evidence proves otherwise: If Starfleet is a de facto navy, then MACO is a de facto marine corps. The latter uses the mobility of a navy to rapidly deliver its forces. The [url="ttp://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100409062951/memoryalpha/en/images/7/70/MACO_Enterprise_logo.svg"]MACO logo[/url] also depicts a shark, which indicates a maritime military force, like marines. Another possibility would be Navy SEALs but the ranks don't match like they do between MACO and marine corps.(...)
But this remains your personal speculation. Canonically, MACOs don't exist after the foundation of the UFP (and didn't exist at all in the IP up until ENT), there was never a mention of even a separate organization for Starfleet ground operations as even warzone operation were carried out by regular Starfleet personnel (mostly security/ops, as far as combat went). If you want to argue STO that's one thing as Cryptic could as well call them "the insane clown posse" but that wouldn't change canon as well
(...)They're not using "NC" but NCCthe meaning is different.(...)
Let me quote MA:
"The use of NCC as a prefix for Starfleet registry numbers, Matt Jefferies said that the registries for American civil aircraft are preceded by NC, and Soviet craft used a prefix of CCCC, and as such, he more-or-less combined the two. His philosophy was, "If we do anything in space, we (Americans and Russians) have to do it together." [X]wbm In contrast, the Star Trek Encyclopedia (2nd ed., p. 317) claims that the second C was just an arbitrary addition to make the registry look better.
Matt Jefferies was the guy who came up with the prefix. According to him it was meant to express cooperation, not militarism. Other sources even claim it was just a decision based on aesthetics.
(...)There were already military ranks on the Enterprise in the pilot episode TOS: "The Cage".(...)
Again, rank designations don't mean anything, especially not in a society so vastly different and evolved from ours. But historical examples also exist. Post WW2 Germany's Federal Border Guard was a paramilitary police organization under civil command which used the German navies' ranking structure for their maritime personnel.
With the release of The Animated Series DVD, the studio appears to have changed its stance, and is leaning towards the animated series being part of established Star Trek canon.
TAS was also created by Roddenberry, even if he wasn't satisfied with it "canonically".
Could mean anything and nothing, could just be a name kept, could be an oversight. Not enough proof for me - besides, Starfleet is never referred to as a Navy but only as a Fleet if I remember correctly. If that is not correct I apologize.
A line included in the script for Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country but not in the actual film was to have established that Starfleet was under civilian control.
That's not "on-screen". Otherwise, Starfleet's actions as a military organization speak louder than words.
Non of those actions proof that they can't be a paramilitary as well. Nobody doubts that they are the acting military of the UFP though.
(...)It does matter. Starfleet ranks are the closest to the British Royal Navy and the U.S. Navy, not the emergency services. Moreover, it is the only UFP battle fleet during the times of war, making it a de facto military organization.
See above. Again, acting military yes. Primarily military organization, no.
The Coast Guard is further defined by Title 14 of the United States Code:
The Coast Guard as established January 28, 1915, shall be a military service and a branch of the armed forces of the United States at all times.
Like I said, I'm not American. The source I read stated only by presidential mandate, I cannot say which one is correct as I don't care enough to verify one or the other
EDIT2: Title 14, § 3 of the United states code (which you cited, I think, ironically) states that the Coast Guard is a department of homeland security and thus a civilian body, unless per presidential mandate it is transferred to the US Navy.
According to this source, the split of police and military responsibilities define the Us Coast Guard as a paramilitary organization (Le Mière, Christian (2011): 'Policing the Waves: Maritime Paramilitaries in the Asia-Pacific', Survival, 53: 1, p. 140).
Starfleet, by its actions, is the equivalent of a navy.
It's the equivalent of anything you need regarding the space faring businesses of the UFP. The fact remains that Starfleet doesn't have and is not suppsoed to have a real-life counterpart. It's fiction.
But IRL see the Japanese military. Officially they aren't one, yet they are the equivalent. The same applies to some other states that don't have militaries but equivalent services.
Actions speaks louder than words. Being the only UFP battle fleet during the times of war, with military ranks and chain of command at all times, makes it a de facto military organization.
*shrugs* I have no problem with the official explanation and it doesn't require any suspension of disbelief to accept that. Then again, I'm not all that obsessed with militarism to begin with
If that's the case, then feel free to post it. Otherwise, the evidence proves that Starfleet is the UFP Navya military organization.
I don't care enough to go through all of it. There are numerous citations on MA on the matter, numerous in-universe citations and statements, civilian jurisdiction, the fact that most of the personnel we ever see in the shows holds "civilian" qualifications like botanists, archelogists, social scientists, security officers and the like that are all trained and prepared to partake in risky and combat operations if needed but fulfill other jobs until then and afterwards (akin to a militia), the loose policy of resigning and rejoining etc.
To me at least that's enough. I have no problems with the topic and never felt the need to pick it apart as the service of Starfleet does in my opinion not need another definition. It's Starfleet, plain and simple.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
No, it couldn'tnot with a shark on their patch, which indicates a maritime military force, like marines. Another possibility would be Navy SEALs but the ranks don't match like MACO and marine corps.
Oh well that makes sense, anyone that uses marine life in their logo must be a Naval Special Ops group. This changes the way I look at the lethal military officers running Seaworld...
FYI, the Isurus mackerel shark is used on the MACO patch because it's commonly known as the "Mako Shark", sharing the pronunciation with the organization. The new seal of the US Intelligence Service is a giant octopus, are you going to draw fact-ignoring conclusions based on that too?
Oh well that makes sense, anyone that uses marine life in their logo must be a Naval Special Ops group. This changes the way I look at the lethal military officers running Seaworld...
FYI, the Isurus mackerel shark is used on the MACO patch because it's commonly known as the "Mako Shark", sharing the pronunciation with the organization. The new seal of the US Intelligence Service is a giant octopus, are you going to draw fact-ignoring conclusions based on that too?
Excellent posting Kudos to you!
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
No, it couldn'tnot with a shark on their patch, which indicates a maritime military force, like marines. Another possibility would be Navy SEALs but the ranks don't match like MACO and marine corps.
A special case is made for "non-fiction" reference books. [ . . . ] Unlike the novels and novelizations, these reference manuals have never been explicitly named as non-canon. [ . . . ] Roddenberry himself considered it part of the "background" of Star Trek. [ . . . ] Viacom Senior Director Harry Lang left no doubt that he considers the reference books as canon.
"As long as Gene Roddenberry is involved in it, he is the final word on what is Star Trek." Richard Arnold.
Yeah, that's not how ST canon works. ST is ONLY the films and TV series.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
also if you scroll down I want to say about halfway down the page shows you all the branches in starfleet is exploration, research, meeting new species, scientific research/technological research, defense etc
UFP member worlds often keep merchant fleets and active navies to protect and support them.
Vulcan has its own ships, as does andoria for example.
Earth does not support a secondary military, because it already supplies a huge portion of Starfleets Manpower.
An organization like MACO would in any case be a branch of Starfleet and be ferried around as needed by starfleet vessels.
Them having their own starships is simply pointless.
One of starfleets duties is being the military. Case closed. No point arguing over an self evident fact.
However, its duties are also:
Coast guard, Taxi, Delivery boy, Parcelservice, Science and Exploration, RnD, Shipbuilding and maintenance, Disaster relief.
Honestly, i do not understand what you people are arguing about.
UFP member worlds often keep merchant fleets and active navies to protect and support them.
Vulcan has its own ships, as does andoria for example.
Earth does not support a secondary military, because it already supplies a huge portion of Starfleets Manpower.
An organization like MACO would in any case be a branch of Starfleet and be ferried around as needed by starfleet vessels.
Them having their own starships is simply pointless.
One of starfleets duties is being the military. Case closed. No point arguing over an self evident fact.
However, its duties are also:
Coast guard, Taxi, Delivery boy, Parcelservice, Science and Exploration, RnD, Shipbuilding and maintenance, Disaster relief.
Honestly, i do not understand what you people are arguing about.
I believe the phrase your looking for is "They are arguing over Semantics"
The [url="ttp://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100409062951/memoryalpha/en/images/7/70/MACO_Enterprise_logo.svg"]MACO logo[/url] also depicts a shark, which indicates a maritime military force, like marines.
You're reading way too much into that patch, dude. Unless you think the Gemini 5 astronauts travelled by covered wagon.
noun
1. the humorous use of a word or phrase so as to emphasize or suggest its different meanings or applications, or the use of words that are alike or nearly alike in sound but different in meaning; a play on words.
2. the word or phrase used in this way.
The shortfin mako shark or blue pointer, Isurus oxyrinchus, is a large mackerel shark. It is commonly referred to as the mako shark together with the longfin mako shark (Isurus paucus).
As for the debate over what is and is not canon...it's always up for debate, but I don't think the interpretation that ancillary materials like sourcebooks are canon is a very widely held one. I think the most common, and useful, definition of canon is the one followed by Memory Alpha:
The Star Trek canon is generally defined as all released television series and feature films since the release of Star Trek: The Animated Series on DVD. The studio changed its 1988 removal of TAS from canon by listing the cartoon series (aired 19731974), as a part of established canon in its database at StarTrek.com. The various "official" references (such as the Star Trek Encyclopedia or the Star Trek Chronology) may be used as a guide to canon information, but are not canon in and of themselves.
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
Comments
I love Gene Rodenberry as much as any big Star Trek fan, but his notion of Starfleet not being a military organization is one of those rare times that he is (here I go...) full of **B.S.**
Even watching TOS, when it was the ONLY Trek around, there's many examples of Starfleet fighting the Federation's wars. When you watch "Balance of Terror" the military vibe is so strong. Remember the testing of the M-5 program? What did Starfleet do to test the M-5 that was temporarily outfitted on the Enterprise? They conducted... wargames, sending 4-5 other Constitution-class ships to test the meshing of the M-5 program on the USS Enterprise.
Starfleet gets the warships (that's what they are... they're heavily armed, well defended, capable of doing many things, regardless of how touchie-feely Picard tries to make out Starfleet to be). If Starfleet does not indeed get the warships and are not a military organization, just who the hell had been fighting the enemies of the Federation in the many wars it has experienced?
Who were the ones dying in those famed, long duration, long ranged Exploration Missions?
Who shuttles around the Federation's Diplomats as well as usually the first to receive a foreign power's Diplomatic envoy?
Who has continuously fought the Klingon Empire for the Federation?
Who has continuously fought the Romulans for the Federation? Do recall that the threat of war with the Romulans and a MILITARY ALLIANCE against them was the very core reason why the Federation was made to begin with.
Who fought the Cardassians from before TNG's timeframe for the Federation?
Who, on behalf of the Federation, were the ones doing the fighting and dying in the Dominion War? Who were all those replacement ships being made for and who did they go to?
Who were getting the newly designed ships to use on behalf of defending the Federation?
There is only one answer.
Starfleet.
No matter how Gene Rodenberry didn't want to say that Starfleet was a military organization, no matter how much Picard and company scoffed and threw up their noses that Starfleet's main reason to exist was to defend the Federation... Starfleet at its very core a military organization. Its ships are indeed warships (it's utter b.s. the notion that Starfleet's ships are not warships despite being the ones fighting ALL the Federation's wars).
Starfleet does many things for the Federation as we see throughout the shows and movies. But it is first and foremost a military organization that deters hostile action against the Federation (their arms race with the Klingons and Romulans, for example), and if that fails, be the first to **** somebody up if they try to do something hostile against the Federation.
Sorry Gene and Picard... Starfleet IS a military organization.
And MACO? That's absorbed and a Pre-UFP organization. No longer exists.
The MACO in STO is Starfleet's special operations branch, in the same vein as the SEALS, and the USMC's STA/Force Recon.
Starfleet serves as the primary armed force of the UFP. It is, for all intents and purposes, the Federation's main military branch (There's also an entity known as the Federation Naval Patrol. We don't know much about it besides it's operations are presumably blue water/brown water, based on the theme of that Voyager episode).
The whole "not a military" garbage was part of the impossibly utopian TRIBBLE spewed in the first two seasons of TNG. While canon, it's a major contradiction.
However, utopian ideals weren't behind it all. Roddenberry despised the "militarized" Starfleet that existed from ST II through ST VI. And his relationship with Harve Bennett, the man who set the ball rolling for this "militarized" Star Trek, was less than stellar (Roddenberry considered Bennett to be an "interloper" and was pissed at being made a figurehead). The success of Bennett's ideas did nothing to placate Roddenberry.
The first two seasons of TNG were basically Roddenberry thumbing his nose up at the films, Bennett, and Paramount's execs. Hence, the whole "Starfleet is not a military" TRIBBLE.
It wasn't until Roddenberry's death that The Next Generation started resonating with fanbase at large.
So, that's why there seems to be a ridiculous contradiction. Roddenberry's supposed "idealism" mixed with bitterness and a petty control freak attitude. One that alienated many of the old Star Trek insiders who was with the franchise since the 1960's.
Starfleet, despite the delusions of it not being so, functions as the Federation's military (or, at least, the main branch of it) geared for defense of Federation territory and interests. The Roddenberry purists either should acknowledge that (or at least maintain an open mind about it), or continue to follow the contradictory status born from Roddenberry's "moonbattery". "Military" and "exploration" are not contradictory concepts.
Thank you for the excellent description of not only Starfleet's purpose and structure, but the whole "Starfleet is not a military" tripe from early TNG, and why it made NO sense. GR was a genius, but the hyper-utopia presented in the first two seasons of TNG just had so many inherent logical problems--Starfleet suddenly not being military even though it was a military organization from TOS on being one of the big ones.
There was also that odd bit about the Klingons having "joined" the Federation, implying they were members and not just in a treaty.
And ironically enough one of the most dangerous and deadly WMD in all of Star Trek canon didn't come from Starfleet. The Genesis Device was invented by civilian scientists who were all contemptuous to some degree or other of the "militarized" Starfleet. (I never liked Carol Marcus much, at all because she kept Kirk from his son for terrible reasons and let him grow up hating his own father.) Starfleet was put in a supervisory role over the Genesis Project not because they wanted to weaponize it, but because it was already a one-torpedo planet killer and none of its designers seemed to even be aware of how freaking terrifying it was. Kirk never really seems enthusiastic about it--when he argues in its favor at all, there's no real passion behind it.
I can't imagine there were too many people in Starfleet actually happy about the idea of Genesis existing, but the Federation Council wrote the orders--and apparently couldn't think two moves ahead to realize how destabilizing Genesis' existence would be--so there wasn't much they could do about it. I can't imagine that many people actually being surprised when the Klingons flipped their lids.
The Klingons' reaction was murderous and absolutely wrong, but they were right about one thing: Genesis was an absolutely horrifying weapon of mass destruction, whether it was meant to be or not. McCoy knew it, too. And I think Kirk and Spock did, as well. Kirk arguably couldn't argue against it as well as he should have because 1) he was having a midlife crisis and 2) the chief scientist was his ex and the mother of his child (who he was instructed to stay away from). I'm not sure what Spock actually thought about it. He appeared to be playing the devil's advocate just to aggravate McCoy.
The worst thing is Genesis doesn't work for its intended purpose. The protomatter inside makes the newly formed planet become unstable and explode. All it's really good for is General Order 24.
Nice job breaking it, science heroes.
Starfleet is the Military/defense, exploration, scientific discovery and research and anything else I missed
That's the point. There is no real-life counterpart to Starfleet. It is a fictional ideal of a huge, space-faring, paramilitary organization that tends to every need that arises from being a space-faring civilization, made up of hundreds of worlds. I never got why people have to almost violently search for a template of the 20th century to put that organization in. The closest I ever got to find some sort of real-life counterpart was the former German border protection (BGS) which was characterized as a paramilitary police unit with combatant status in the case of national defense, had military and civil jurisdiction and ultimately was under civil authority, just like Starfleet. This of course only applies to the policing/defnsive functions and doesn't take into account the exploration, relief and science branches.
While I do agree that taking civilians to *every* encounter is irresponsible (although in DS9 it was stated that the Oddyssey unloaded the civilians at a starbase prior to going into combat) keep in mind that the Ent-D did not ferry around hundreds of civilians just for the sake of it. Starfleet vessels like the Ent-D were supposed to operate for years in deep-space. The civilians aboard were completely made up of families of the officers serving aboard. I am pretty sure they talked that over in great detail before sticking with their mom or dad/wife or husband. Officers on a Starfleet ship with a certain service time could ask for their families to come aboard and this was meant to reduce overall stress and fatigue being on missions that are supposed to take you into deep space for the entire youth of your children. It is a concept I actually *like* about Starfleet. But like I said, if you already know you will face combat, leaving the civilians at a starbase is probably the best thing to do.
The DW-Galaxies were scrambled and to around 70% "empty". That's a fact stated in the technical manual
It depends on your definition of "marine". By it's very credo, Starfleet doesn't have soldiers as it is not classified as a military, as much as some people don't want to hear that. It is best comparable to a paramilitary police organization. The ground troops you mention were regular Starfleet Officers in dedicated gear. Throughout the series, from TOs to TNG to DS9, we see the ship's crew get into combat areas. They actively go to battle planetside and the troops are always made up of Starfleet Security personnel. While there is equipment, there is no different structure in ground forces and ship crew. MACOs post-ENT only exist in STO and they didn't exist prior to ENT at all where they were clearly Earth military,not Starfleet. And considering Starfleet's mission profile, you don't need a separate branch to begin with.
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By the way, kudos to such an well worded and thorough posting, unfortunately I can only react to certain elements of it, but I do understand where you are coming from now. I'm not a native speaker, so it might be my fault that some things slipped my attention
And nobody doubts that they are. They are the military arm of the UFP but they are by definition not a military. Really, most quarrel just comes from terminology that expects us to send "Battleships" and "Soldiers" into combat and not "Explorers" and "Officers".
By the way, as a general statement, there is no "peaceful exploration". Exploration in the Star Trek sense means spearheading into the unknown depth of space with a very high probability that whatever you find wants to horribly murder your face. This is why "Explorrs" are super heavy battleship-esque armed vessels.
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Putting a gun on a ship does not make it a warship, fighting a war does not make a man a soldier; Starfleet is only a military when it needs to be.
Indeed. Add to that that service in Starfleet seems to be entirely voluntary and it doesn't seem to be a big hussle to resign and rejoin as you please reinforces, at least in my opinion, this "militia" feel to it.
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Fundamentally, you've hit the nail on the head. Starfleet is Starfleet. We can make various comparisons to real-world organizations, but it's pretty clear that there's no direct analogue. It's its own thing.
And if you think about the timeline and the universe there, being all three makes sense.
If you're going to have an exploration force, they need to be prepared to run across new people. One of two things usually happens when you meet a new culture with peaceful intentions, you establish peaceful relations or you get attacked y someone who doesn't have peaceful intentions. That exploration force needed to be prepared for both, so they get trained in diplomacy and combat So because they needed to know both anyway, Starfleet as the main exploration force for the Federation also became the main diplomatic force and the main defense force.
It is a military, an exploration force, a diplomatic corps all in one.
What if they refuse the term that it's a military organization because it has so many purposes that got nothing to do with war? saying it's a military organization, especially in the context it is usually used, is reducing it to a military purpose and nothning else.
This corresponds to my earlier statement from another discussion:
A navy is "a fleet of [ . . . ] military vessels". Furthermore:
In most nations, the term "naval", as opposed to "navy", is interpreted as encompassing all maritime military forces, e.g., navy, marine / marine corps, and coast guard forces.
USS Enterprise (NCC-1701):
This is why Starfleet is not a merchant navy.
TOS: "Errands of Mercy" featured the Federation-Klingon War (2267), which was preceded by years of tension between the two factions. The UFP's primary measure was to send its Starfleet flagship to the front lines of the war. Here is one of the statements from the episode:
Kirk states that he is a soldierand he's a captain of a shipbut Picard states that Starfleet is not a military organization. All of this is under Roddenberry's supervision, who was "very adamant that the Starfleet was not a military or a militaristic operation". You can't have it both ways. Moreover, by Roddenberry's logic, soldiers don't lie and diplomats do. Isn't it ironic that Starfleet supposedly prefers diplomacy, while being a de facto military organization?
The evidence proves that it was a lie from the start.
The East India Companies were trade monopolies who warred with each othernot against military fleets by themselves (excluding joint efforts)for control. The governments behind them still had a navy who would engage in a full-scale war with another navy. For example, the Royal Navy existed in parallel to the English East India Company.
Regarding the Hanseatic League:
Where the UFP is an empire, the Starfleet is its military. These examples actually strengthen my point. Otherwise, the comparison to a "merchant navy" is inapplicable (see: Star Trek: First Contact):
If MACO is a special forces unit attached to Starfleet, while the latter is the only UFP battle fleet during a full-scale war, then it makes Starfleet a de facto navya military fleet.
The Culture:
This comparison only strengthens my point.
Apparently, what Starfleet does and what it claims to be are two different stories.
The space combat is performed by Starfleet, which denies being a military. There's also a MACO space set, which is more advanced than Starfleet's standard offerings.
Starfleet was still the UFP military organization despite Roddenberry's "vision" and Picard's claims. Such a deception is not at all heroic. By the way, the UFP isn't just "humans", if you're referring to deeds.
If MACOs are marines, then Starfleet is a navy; not just "when it needs to be".
Except, Roddenberry was "very adamant that the Starfleet was not a military or a militaristic operation".
Maybe it's due to the fact that the U.S. Navy is a military branch of the U.S. Armed Forces. In fact, its official website uses the .mil extension, which is reserved exclusively for military.
The premise is fine but it's clear that you're not getting the point, considering what you quoted. The U.S. Navy is a military. Starfleet denies being a militaryat least, Picard doesand so does Roddenberry, for that matter.
MACO is a military organization that deals with space technology in STO (see: MACO Space). Starfleet denies being a military organization. It's only natural to question why MACO doesn't have a navy.
On the contrary, your "ground forces" argument for MACO is based on the ENT canon, while my argument takes STO with its MACO space set into account. If Starfleet denies being a military, while MACO is a military, it makes Starfleet's claim a lie. STO is based on Star Trek, after all.
Strange, considering that Klingons have been portrayed as a recurring threat to the UFP throughout most of the Star Trek. Starfleet's standard holodeck programdesigned by MACOduring the tutorial mission in STO, is an attack on the Klingons.
The Federation-Klingon War (2372-73) describes the UFP rapidly losing ground and only hoping to regain what was lost. The best they could do was to slow the Klingons down, not stop them. In the meantime, a 1/3rd of the Klingon navy was still on the offensive in the Cardassian space.
In TNG: "Yesterday's Enterprise", the UFP was six months away from surrendering to the Klingons.
TOS had the Federation-Klingon War (2267), which was preceded by years of tension between both factions.
Building up its military capabilities doesn't absolve Starfleet of being a military in the past.
The evidence proves otherwise. In DS9: "Valiant":
In DS9: "The Sound of Her Voice":
The Memory Alpha page correctly notes the following:
One does not exclude the other, considering that Starfleet is the only UFP battle fleet at the times of war, but, according to Picard, it does:
That makes it a deception.
That would still make it a de facto military organization. Do you even realize that military has scientists, engineers and various technical roles? Read the article titled "Science in the military":
Science-minded soldiers and sailors must be comfortable with military life: conforming to strict rules, codes, and honor systems, and being ready to participate in combat missions if necessary. Serving in the military can be dangerous even in peacetime, so its important to understand the nature of the commitment. But as long as you know what to expect, the military can offer a wide range of opportunities for challenging and rewarding careers.
Does this ring a bell to anyone? Starfleet doesn't "unload" its supposed "non-military" part of the crew somewhere before going into battle; it's the same staff and the same crew.
Probably because they have scanners that can scan. From Star Trek: Nememis, when the Enterprise scans the Scimitar:
I'm glad that you agree.
Are you even aware that Roddenberry created the original Star Trek television series? Picard explicitly stated that Starfleet wasn't a military organization, not that it "wasn't only" or "much more than" that.
Clearly, it still exists in STO but only as part of Starfleet, which denies being a military organization.
Except, the on-screen evidence already contradicted Roddenberry's "vision" in the 1960's original series, which he created and had control over.
That doesn't absolve it of being a de facto military organization.
Actions speak louder than words.
Because it makes it a de facto military organization; because actions speak louder than words.
Star Trek is supposed to be a futuristic setting.
Starfleet does all of the above. Moreover, Kirk explicitly stated that he was a "soldier" in TOS: "Errands of Mercy". Saying "when it needs to be" doesn't excuse Starfleet of being a de facto military at any other time.
Military service:
Militia:
That would still make Starfleet a military.
There's a direct analogue: a navy. Moreover, actions speak louder than words.
Have you ever heard of a military attaché?
Do you realize that historically, exploration has been largely done by the naval vessels? Starfleet's purpose has been militaristic from the start. That makes Picard's statement and Roddenberry's "vision" a lie.
Of course, Starfleet being a military organization drastically changes things. The UFP expansion with Starfleet vessels now equals a military expansion.
When you join Starfleet, you join the UFP Navya military organization.
Neither MACO or NCC have any confirmed in universe meaning. The whole MArine COrps stuff if fanon, it could stand for anything. Ditto for NCC.
That's not to say MACO couldn't stand for marine something or other, but it was never mentioned on the show.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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And they are also a de facto (and de jure) scientific, diplomatic and exploratory agency, so why does military connotations override that? Why is their military purpose automatically their primary function in your eyes? Why is Starfleet a military that also does exploratory duties as opposed to explorers that also do military duties?
Actually, MACO stands for Military Assault Command Operations.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Military_Assault_Command_Operations
Because Starfleet and the federation are Mary Sues. They are internally and rationally inconsistent. That´s fine when its a TV show where only the briefest glimpses of either are shown. But in a game where the players are active members of Starfleet things need to make more sense. You think I´m totally off base here? In all of Star Trek there has only been one, ONE character that was a Federation citizen but not in Starfleet and wasn´t hyped to be in it. One. And he was usually not central to the story.
We are expected to keep believing that a bunch of scientific types are ALSO the military? What nonsense. Section 31 actually alleviates the cognitive dissonance issues quite a bit, but even they can´t be everywhere all the time! Star Trek only works within a particular universe with particular rules that allow the incredibly inept and relatively hapless Federation to work at all. For starfleet to make any sense you know that there must a real military somewhere because Starfleet just doesn´t make sense once players from the real world are asked to step in the shoes of a starfleet captain in STO. If anything I´d say the players should be some sort of off shoot, maybe mercs working for the federation? The way its set up you know that PMCs must be rampant in the alpha quadrant.
this right here, the starfleet officers refuse to say its a military organizations because it isn't just a military organization, it is an organization that is more than military. Besides military it is also exploration, diplomatic, scientific, research etc. Starfleet will defend themselves if they have to but starfleet would rather do anything other than fight but again they will defend themselves and other members if they have to. Starfleet usually tries diplomacy but if that doesn't work then they fight.
Starfleet is the federation's military and it is not the federation's military.
Why? because nether of them actually exist! They are fictional constructions, they are whatever the writer of that episode or movie decides they are.
There is no consistency, why try to make it consistent?
Let's all stroll down to the Deus Ex Machina room, AKA the transporter room. It does everything the story needs it to, anything else be damned. The charactization of how it works during "second chances" is vastly different from say 'Realm of Fear" earlier in the season.
Realm of fear implies that you come out exactly as you go in, and that you are conscious the entire time.
and as it stands, this is the canon description of how the transporter works, as stated in ENT 4x10.
But half the time is goes off in some other direction.
Because that;s what the writers want for that story.
What's my position?
That people should know what they're screaming about!
(paraphrased from "The Newsroom)
But just like Columbus didn't do his exploring unarmed, neither is starfleet unarmed.
As I said its about idealogy, about how the members of Starfleet see thier primary purpose.
Comparesion todays militaries Canadian Armed Forces, The American Army/Airforce/Navy, and so on see thier primary purpose as being a military, they have done other things, such as build homes in other countries, help during natural disasters, science, but first and formost thier top obiligation and thier reason for being is to fight wars, everything else is gravy.
Now take the RCMP, they're police force, not a military. But doing one of thier first acts was in fact to fight a minor civil war, to put down a metis rebellian. They fought battles. This does not make the RCMP a military, law and order is thier primary function, but at one time acting as a military reserve force before Canada had a proper military was one of thier responsiblities.
So Starfleet is a Scientific/Humanitarian Space organisation that acts as a reservist force because a interplanetary dedicated military is against the UFP's core peaceful idealogy. They're not complete pacifists they believe in self defence, but it has an idealogical undercurrent that is opposed to a dedicated military and what having one says about thier priorities and beliefs.
Starfleet are Military reservist organization, not a military organization.
Now MACO is likely an earth military organization for Planetary Earth defence, just as in Game Bajor has of its own. During a time of war they maybe go off world to seek out threats, but normally they're focus is staying prepared just in case an attack comes out of nowhere against thier planet. They maybe even have ships dedicated to solar system defence, but not designed for intersellar warfare, which why they'd rely upon starfleet during a time of war.
And while they wouldn't be apart of starfleet just like the Bajoran Militia isn', they are linked enough that personal
can transfere from one origanization to the other.
Now the KDF is designed different, they're underlining idealogy is different, they're a military designed for conquest and defence of the empire, not for science/Exploration/Diplomancy, although they do conduct those things as well. Still when they do Eploration/Science/and Diplomancy its usually for military purposes first and formost, but they're not stupid so they they also take advantage of other opportunities as well.
Romulan Republic is more frontier action, they're a military force, but the focus is more on anything that makes sure the fledgling republic servives, then a didicated universal idealogy.
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exactly this right here Starfleet is the primarily scientific, research, exploration,diplomatic and neet new races etc. Starfleet is never un armed because there will be times that they will have to defend themselves when necessary and fight a war after they have exhasted all diplomatic channels to try and stop the war but in case the diplomatic channels they try several dozen times or more they mobilize starfleet and prepare for war as a last option if diplomacy fails
"MArine COrps" is a logical conclusion based on facts. Canonically, MACO has been confirmed as Military Assault Command Operations.
NCC has been confirmed as Naval Construction Contract in "The Making of Star Trek", which was created by Roddenberry and Whitfield. In this case, an in-universe confirmation is unnecessary.
None of the above is unique to a non-military organization. Furthermore, all Starfleet officers hold a military rank on top of their occupation and are required to follow a military chain of command in any of their duties.
See "Science in the military".
None of that is unique to a non-military organization. Moreover, all Starfleet officers hold military ranks and have to follow a military chain of command, no matter their assignments.
Why not? These are the fundamentals of the franchise that STO is based on.
The evidence proves otherwise.
From "Voyages of Christopher Columbus":
Furthermore, see Spanish Navy:
The RCMP history:
The British Army and the Royal Navy were responsible for Canada's "proper" military, until it created its own. Furthermore, the RCMP ranks are mostly those of a police force; the Starfleet ranks are those of a military.
Military reserve force:
That still makes Starfleet a military organization. Furthermore, having to follow a military chain of command in all of the Starfleet careers, makes it a de facto dedicated military organization.
That makes Starfleet a de facto military organization.
The military ranks and command structure of Starfleet in any of its assignments prove that its priorities are militaristic.
Well in that case it canonically stands for Military Assault Command Operations, no mention of Marines at all. It could mean they are Army or just a heavily armed Security decision such as Military Police.
Yeah, that's not canon.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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The MACO = Marine Corps analogy is entirely specualtive. Just because it sounds good to you doesn't mean it is it's intented purpose. As stated it standds for Military Assault Command Operations and are canonically part of Earth Military, not Starfleet. STO just uses the term due to fanservice, but STO is not canon as well.
NCC was based on a real life choice, but not the Naval Construction Contract. It was taken because of the registry *civilian* aircraft used in the US and the second C was added "just because". Maybe Rodenberry decided later on, but MA cites the guy that came up with the idea if I remember correctly. Remember, back when TOS started there wasn't even Starfleet or a UFP, those things were decided seven or eight episodes in. Canonically, as in on-screen reference we never got a explanation for either NCC, NX or even USS.
Also, keep in mind Starfleet is under civil command and also has civil jurisdiction akin to a police force. So Starfleet is at best a paramilitary, it doesn't matter what the ranks are called, besides US emergency services also use a lot of those ranks. You could compare Starfleet's military role to that of the coast guard as being a military branch, not a full-time military (at this point I apologize if I use the terms wrong as I am not an US citizen, but my quick research shows that the coast guard operates by a presidential mandate only in times of war as part of the military, before it operates akin to an emergency service) But as the UFP doesn't have a standing military, Starfleet is their military arm and "drafted" in times of war. Before that there is no armed service in the UFP, just Starfleet. So it's a paramilitary by today's standards.
But last but not least keep in mind this is fiction. Star Trek is supposed to depict humanity evolved past militaries (which doesn't mean defenseles). Starfleet doesn't have a present day equivalent, it just doesn't exist. It's supposed to be a service that is completely in charge of all space-faring business of the UFP which just happens to include defense as they have the heavy armed ships to begin with. It's just that. There is so much in-canon and behind the cameras that counters your fixation on "primary military service", although admittedly there is also quite a few inconsistencies, but like I said much of it was made up on the fly to begin with.
It might be a tough fact to accept for a lot of servicepeople, but Starfleet is not meant to be the branch you served in
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That doesn't change what was stated: a logical conclusion based on evidence.
No, it couldn'tnot with a shark on their patch, which indicates a maritime military force, like marines. Another possibility would be Navy SEALs but the ranks don't match like MACO and marine corps.
Actually, that's not a fact. According to Star Trek canon:
"As long as Gene Roddenberry is involved in it, he is the final word on what is Star Trek." Richard Arnold.
The evidence proves otherwise: If Starfleet is a de facto navy, then MACO is a de facto marine corps. The latter uses the mobility of a navy to rapidly deliver its forces. The [url="ttp://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100409062951/memoryalpha/en/images/7/70/MACO_Enterprise_logo.svg"]MACO logo[/url] also depicts a shark, which indicates a maritime military force, like marines. Another possibility would be Navy SEALs but the ranks don't match like they do between MACO and marine corps.
They're not using "NC" but NCCthe meaning is different.
There were already military ranks on the Enterprise in the pilot episode TOS: "The Cage".
There is something that has appeared "on-screen". TAS: "The Counter-Clock Incident":
Star Trek: The Animated Series:
TAS was also created by Roddenberry, even if he wasn't satisfied with it "canonically".
According to Memory Alpha:
That's not "on-screen". Otherwise, Starfleet's actions as a military organization speak louder than words.
It does matter. Starfleet ranks are the closest to the British Royal Navy and the U.S. Navy, not the emergency services. Moreover, it is the only UFP battle fleet during the times of war, making it a de facto military organization.
USCG:
The Coast Guard as established January 28, 1915, shall be a military service and a branch of the armed forces of the United States at all times.
Starfleet, by its actions, is the equivalent of a navy.
Actions speaks louder than words. Being the only UFP battle fleet during the times of war, with military ranks and chain of command at all times, makes it a de facto military organization.
If that's the case, then feel free to post it. Otherwise, the evidence proves that Starfleet is the UFP Navya military organization.
But this remains your personal speculation. Canonically, MACOs don't exist after the foundation of the UFP (and didn't exist at all in the IP up until ENT), there was never a mention of even a separate organization for Starfleet ground operations as even warzone operation were carried out by regular Starfleet personnel (mostly security/ops, as far as combat went). If you want to argue STO that's one thing as Cryptic could as well call them "the insane clown posse" but that wouldn't change canon as well
Let me quote MA:
"The use of NCC as a prefix for Starfleet registry numbers, Matt Jefferies said that the registries for American civil aircraft are preceded by NC, and Soviet craft used a prefix of CCCC, and as such, he more-or-less combined the two. His philosophy was, "If we do anything in space, we (Americans and Russians) have to do it together." [X]wbm In contrast, the Star Trek Encyclopedia (2nd ed., p. 317) claims that the second C was just an arbitrary addition to make the registry look better.
Matt Jefferies was the guy who came up with the prefix. According to him it was meant to express cooperation, not militarism. Other sources even claim it was just a decision based on aesthetics.
Again, rank designations don't mean anything, especially not in a society so vastly different and evolved from ours. But historical examples also exist. Post WW2 Germany's Federal Border Guard was a paramilitary police organization under civil command which used the German navies' ranking structure for their maritime personnel.
Could mean anything and nothing, could just be a name kept, could be an oversight. Not enough proof for me - besides, Starfleet is never referred to as a Navy but only as a Fleet if I remember correctly. If that is not correct I apologize.
Non of those actions proof that they can't be a paramilitary as well. Nobody doubts that they are the acting military of the UFP though.
See above. Again, acting military yes. Primarily military organization, no.
Like I said, I'm not American. The source I read stated only by presidential mandate, I cannot say which one is correct as I don't care enough to verify one or the other
EDIT2: Title 14, § 3 of the United states code (which you cited, I think, ironically) states that the Coast Guard is a department of homeland security and thus a civilian body, unless per presidential mandate it is transferred to the US Navy.
According to this source, the split of police and military responsibilities define the Us Coast Guard as a paramilitary organization (Le Mière, Christian (2011): 'Policing the Waves: Maritime Paramilitaries in the Asia-Pacific', Survival, 53: 1, p. 140).
It's the equivalent of anything you need regarding the space faring businesses of the UFP. The fact remains that Starfleet doesn't have and is not suppsoed to have a real-life counterpart. It's fiction.
But IRL see the Japanese military. Officially they aren't one, yet they are the equivalent. The same applies to some other states that don't have militaries but equivalent services.
*shrugs* I have no problem with the official explanation and it doesn't require any suspension of disbelief to accept that. Then again, I'm not all that obsessed with militarism to begin with
I don't care enough to go through all of it. There are numerous citations on MA on the matter, numerous in-universe citations and statements, civilian jurisdiction, the fact that most of the personnel we ever see in the shows holds "civilian" qualifications like botanists, archelogists, social scientists, security officers and the like that are all trained and prepared to partake in risky and combat operations if needed but fulfill other jobs until then and afterwards (akin to a militia), the loose policy of resigning and rejoining etc.
To me at least that's enough. I have no problems with the topic and never felt the need to pick it apart as the service of Starfleet does in my opinion not need another definition. It's Starfleet, plain and simple.
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Oh well that makes sense, anyone that uses marine life in their logo must be a Naval Special Ops group. This changes the way I look at the lethal military officers running Seaworld...
FYI, the Isurus mackerel shark is used on the MACO patch because it's commonly known as the "Mako Shark", sharing the pronunciation with the organization. The new seal of the US Intelligence Service is a giant octopus, are you going to draw fact-ignoring conclusions based on that too?
Excellent posting
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How is it a logical conclusion? You stated what it stood for then made up a completely different meaning.
No, it would indicate a force that likes sharks.
Yeah, that's not how ST canon works. ST is ONLY the films and TV series.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Starfleet - Memory Alpha http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starfleet
also if you scroll down I want to say about halfway down the page shows you all the branches in starfleet is exploration, research, meeting new species, scientific research/technological research, defense etc
Vulcan has its own ships, as does andoria for example.
Earth does not support a secondary military, because it already supplies a huge portion of Starfleets Manpower.
An organization like MACO would in any case be a branch of Starfleet and be ferried around as needed by starfleet vessels.
Them having their own starships is simply pointless.
One of starfleets duties is being the military. Case closed. No point arguing over an self evident fact.
However, its duties are also:
Coast guard, Taxi, Delivery boy, Parcelservice, Science and Exploration, RnD, Shipbuilding and maintenance, Disaster relief.
Honestly, i do not understand what you people are arguing about.
I believe the phrase your looking for is "They are arguing over Semantics"
You're reading way too much into that patch, dude. Unless you think the Gemini 5 astronauts travelled by covered wagon.
PUN
Mako
As for the debate over what is and is not canon...it's always up for debate, but I don't think the interpretation that ancillary materials like sourcebooks are canon is a very widely held one. I think the most common, and useful, definition of canon is the one followed by Memory Alpha: