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MACO fleet

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  • tenkaritenkari Member Posts: 2,906 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    reynoldsxd wrote: »
    UFP member worlds often keep merchant fleets and active navies to protect and support them.
    Vulcan has its own ships, as does andoria for example.

    Earth does not support a secondary military, because it already supplies a huge portion of Starfleets Manpower.

    An organization like MACO would in any case be a branch of Starfleet and be ferried around as needed by starfleet vessels.
    Them having their own starships is simply pointless.


    One of starfleets duties is being the military. Case closed. No point arguing over an self evident fact.
    However, its duties are also:
    Coast guard, Taxi, Delivery boy, Parcelservice, Science and Exploration, RnD, Shipbuilding and maintenance, Disaster relief.


    Honestly, i do not understand what you people are arguing about.

    I believe the phrase your looking for is "They are arguing over Semantics"
  • jeffel82jeffel82 Member Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    karmog wrote: »
    The [url="ttp://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100409062951/memoryalpha/en/images/7/70/MACO_Enterprise_logo.svg"]MACO logo[/url] also depicts a shark, which indicates a maritime military force, like marines.

    You're reading way too much into that patch, dude. Unless you think the Gemini 5 astronauts travelled by covered wagon.

    PUN
    noun
    1. the humorous use of a word or phrase so as to emphasize or suggest its different meanings or applications, or the use of words that are alike or nearly alike in sound but different in meaning; a play on words.
    2. the word or phrase used in this way.

    Mako
    The shortfin mako shark or blue pointer, Isurus oxyrinchus, is a large mackerel shark. It is commonly referred to as the mako shark together with the longfin mako shark (Isurus paucus).

    As for the debate over what is and is not canon...it's always up for debate, but I don't think the interpretation that ancillary materials like sourcebooks are canon is a very widely held one. I think the most common, and useful, definition of canon is the one followed by Memory Alpha:
    The Star Trek canon is generally defined as all released television series and feature films since the release of Star Trek: The Animated Series on DVD. The studio changed its 1988 removal of TAS from canon by listing the cartoon series (aired 1973–1974), as a part of established canon in its database at StarTrek.com. The various "official" references (such as the Star Trek Encyclopedia or the Star Trek Chronology) may be used as a guide to canon information, but are not canon in and of themselves.
    You're right. The work here is very important.
    tacofangs wrote: »
    ...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
  • karmogkarmog Member Posts: 115 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    angrytarg wrote: »
    But this remains your personal speculation.

    No, it remains a logical conclusion based on evidence. You said it was "entirely speculative", which is not the case.
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Canonically, MACOs don't exist after the foundation of the UFP.

    According to Memory Alpha:
    It seems possible that Earth's entire military structure was absorbed into the UFP Starfleet. However, it is equally as possible that MACOs continued as a separate organization from the Starfleet navy.

    They also exist in STO.
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Matt Jefferies was the guy who came up with the prefix.

    According to Wikipedia, Roddenberry, as the series creator, decided on (or approved) a different meaning for the prefix in The Making of Star Trek.
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Rank designations don't mean anything, especially not in a society so vastly different and evolved from ours.

    If ranks didn't mean anything, then Starfleet wouldn't use them.

    Starfleet ranks:
    Starfleet ranks were designed by William Ware Theiss with the first versions adopted mainly from the insignia of the United States Navy. According to Inside Star Trek: The Real Story, Gene Roddenberry had not wanted Starfleet to appear "too military" which is why the stripe system was "toned down" by making a Lieutenant begin with one stripe (in the real United States Navy this insignia would be worn by an Ensign) and having ensigns wear no insignia.

    The later pip designs of Star Trek: The Next Generation and Star Trek Enterprise would mirror the insignia system of the U.S. navy almost exactly.

    As you can see, Starfleet ranks, for the most part, were copied from the U.S. Navy.
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Paramilitary [ . . . ] organization. [ . . . ] Non of those actions proof that they can't be a paramilitary as well.

    The following evidence proves the "paramilitary" assumption wrong:

    Maquis:
    The Maquis, as the Federation paramilitary groups came to be known.

    TNG: "Preemptive Strike":
    GUL EVEK: So you don't think the fact that some of the Maquis are former Starfleet officers has anything to do with it?
    PICARD: Starfleet does not condone the Maquis' actions in the Demilitarised Zone any more than your government would condone the paramilitary actions of Cardassian civilians.
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Could mean anything and nothing, could just be a name kept, could be an oversight.

    Speaking of "speculation". . . .

    TOS: "Tomorrow is Yesterday" (canon):
    CHRISTOPHER: Must have taken quite a lot to build a ship like this.
    KIRK: There are only twelve like it in the fleet.
    CHRISTOPHER: I see. Did the Navy
    KIRK: We're a combined service, Captain. Our authority is the United Earth Space Probe Agency.

    Kirk admits that they are at least a navy in a "combined service". Furthermore, their actions show that it is a military service.

    UESPA:
    UESPA (pronounced "you-spah") was [ . . . ] one of several names given in early episodes for the agency under which the Enterprise and its crew operated before writers finally settled on "Starfleet".
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Acting military yes. Primarily military organization, no.

    Starfleet officers hold full—not "acting"—military ranks, with the exception of provisional ranks, occasionally given by commanding officers to individuals.
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Title 14, § 3 of the United states code [ . . . ] states that the Coast Guard is a department of homeland security and thus a civilian body, unless per presidential mandate it is transferred to the US Navy.

    It neither states nor makes it a "civilian body".
    The Coast Guard as established January 28, 1915, shall be a military service and a branch of the armed forces of the United States at all times. The Coast Guard shall be a service in the Department of Homeland Security, except when operating as a service in the Navy.

    From Joint Chiefs of Staff:
    The Joint Chiefs do not include the Commandant of the Coast Guard, Admiral Paul F. Zukunft, because the Coast Guard is normally under the Department of Homeland Security, where the other four branches are under the Department of Defense. However, the Coast Guard is always a military service (14 United States Code, section 1) and may operate under the Department of the Navy during wartime. The commandant of the Coast Guard is however, occasionally invited by the chairman to attend meetings of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
    angrytarg wrote: »
    According to this source, the split of police and military responsibilities define the Us Coast Guard as a paramilitary organization (Le Mière, Christian (2011): 'Policing the Waves: Maritime Paramilitaries in the Asia-Pacific', Survival, 53: 1, p. 140).

    According to the USCG:
    The U.S. Coast Guard is one of the five armed forces of the United States and the only military organization within the Department of Homeland Security.

    Consider that Roddenberry "was emphatic that Starfleet was not a military organization but something akin to the Coast Guard."

    Paramilitary:
    The use of the term paramilitary is debated, with different groups differently classifying groups as paramilitary or not.
    angrytarg wrote: »
    The fact remains that Starfleet doesn't have and is not suppsoed to have a real-life counterpart.

    The evidence proves otherwise: Starfleet's real-life counterpart is a navy.
    angrytarg wrote: »
    See the Japanese military. Officially they aren't one, yet they are the equivalent.

    JSDF:
    Under the terms of the Mutual Security Assistance Pact, ratified in 1952 along with the peace treaty Japan had signed with the United States and other countries, United States forces stationed in Japan were to deal with external aggression against Japan while Japanese forces, both ground and maritime, would deal with internal threats and natural disasters.

    Otherwise, the current JSDF are still called military forces.
    angrytarg wrote: »
    The official explanation [ . . . ] doesn't require any suspension of disbelief to accept.

    The official explanation contradicts the evidence.
    angrytarg wrote: »
    I don't care enough to go through all of it. There are numerous citations on MA on the matter, numerous in-universe citations and statements.

    If you can't provide specifics, then you have no evidence.
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Civilian jurisdiction.

    Starfleet conducts court-martial trials. There's even an episode titled TOS: "Court Martial".

    TNG: "The Measure of a Man":
    PHILLIPA: So you came to me for help.
    PICARD: Yes, I came to you. You're the JAG officer for this sector. I had no choice but to come to you.
    angrytarg wrote: »
    The fact that most of the personnel we ever see in the shows holds "civilian" qualifications like botanists, archelogists, social scientists, security officers.

    All Starfleet officers hold a military rank on top of their occupations and have to follow a military chain of command in any of their duties.
    angrytarg wrote: »
    The loose policy of resigning and rejoining etc.

    DS9: "The Way of the Warrior":
    SISKO: I'm sorry, Mister Worf, but I can't accept your resignation at this time.
    WORF: I do not understand. What further use could I be here?
    SISKO: I'm not sure yet. But as long as the fighting continues between the Klingons and the Cardassians, I need you here on the station.
    WORF: If you think that is wise.
    SISKO: I don't know if it's wise or not. But I do know that you're a good officer, and right now I need every good officer I can get.
    angrytarg wrote: »
    It's Starfleet, plain and simple.

    The evidence proves that Starfleet is the UFP Navy—a military organization.
    Anyone that uses marine life in their logo must be a Naval Special Ops group. [ . . . ] The Isurus mackerel shark is used on the MACO patch because it's commonly known as the "Mako Shark", sharing the pronunciation with the organization. [ . . . ] The new seal of the US Intelligence Service is a giant octopus.

    The Navy SEALs picked their "SEAL" (SEa, Air, Land) acronym in a particular order, so it could coincide with their maritime military operations. Depending on a team, some of their insignias literally feature a seal; others—at least an anchor and a trident. It makes sense that MACO would have a similar idea with the "mako shark". Military insignias are not created randomly.

    As for the new US Intelligence seal, it's not just an octopus—it's an octopus wrapping its tentacles around Earth, with "Nothing is beyond our reach" displayed at the bottom half of the emblem. Combined with their activity, this changes the meaning entirely.

    There are also MACO ranks—particularly the rank of Major. Notice that it features a gold oak leaf. Considering the rank, this symbol is unique to the following military branches: US Marine Corps, US Army and US Air Force.

    Keeping in mind Starfleet as the Navy, the "mako shark" on the patch, the gold oak leaf on the rank insignia and the MACO activity, the only logical conclusion is that MACO is the MArine COrps.
    artan42 wrote: »
    How is it a logical conclusion?

    Because it's based on evidence.
    artan42 wrote: »
    It would indicate a force that likes sharks.

    No, that's not how military insignias are created. See my reply to "edwardianed" above.
    artan42 wrote: »
    Yeah, that's not how ST canon works. ST is ONLY the films and TV series.

    The linked source on the reference books states otherwise. Furthermore, there's TOS: "Tomorrow is Yesterday" (TV series canon):
    CHRISTOPHER: Must have taken quite a lot to build a ship like this.
    KIRK: There are only twelve like it in the fleet.
    CHRISTOPHER: I see. Did the Navy
    KIRK: We're a combined service, Captain. Our authority is the United Earth Space Probe Agency.

    In other words, Kirk admits that they are at least a navy in a "combined service". Furthermore, their actions show that it is a military service.

    UESPA:
    UESPA (pronounced "you-spah") was [ . . . ] one of several names given in early episodes for the agency under which the Enterprise and its crew operated before writers finally settled on "Starfleet".
    darthloki wrote: »
    the page shows you all the branches in starfleet is exploration, research, meeting new species, scientific research/technological research, defense etc

    All Starfleet officers hold a military rank on top of their occupations and have to follow a military chain of command in any of their assignments.
    reynoldsxd wrote: »
    UFP member worlds often keep merchant fleets and active navies to protect and support them. Vulcan has its own ships, as does andoria for example.

    Where are those navies during the times of war? It's Starfleet that's at the front lines.
    reynoldsxd wrote: »
    Earth does not support a secondary military, because it already supplies a huge portion of Starfleets Manpower. [ . . . ] An organization like MACO would in any case be a branch of Starfleet and be ferried around as needed by starfleet vessels. Them having their own starships is simply pointless.

    That makes Starfleet a de facto military organization.
    reynoldsxd wrote: »
    One of starfleets duties is being the military. [ . . . ] However, its duties are also: Coast guard, Taxi, Delivery boy, Parcelservice, Science and Exploration, RnD, Shipbuilding and maintenance, Disaster relief.

    All Starfleet officers hold a military rank on top of their occupations and have to follow a military chain of command in any of their duties.
    jeffel82 wrote: »
    Unless you think the Gemini 5 astronauts travelled by covered wagon.

    Actually, I think a covered wagon represents a travel or a journey. See my reply to "edwardianed" above.
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