Right I'm a trek nerd, watching Star Trek original series on BBC 2 at 6 when I was a kid, made sure tea and homework where finished. Going down to the local video store (remember those) to hire The Next Gen before it came on TV, watching each series as it came out in full. Even a full Star Trek movie marathon in the local cinema when Generations came out, 12 hours + on cinema seat is no joke.
Now the minute STO went FtP I joined and I've love it. I run a mid sized Fed fleet that I consider a lot of my members friends (The Space Invaders), I'm able to play most nights for a few hours and I enjoy it.
This game needs people to spend money to survive it's a business first a game second, a lot of people forget that.
But here's the thing, a few friends have asked about the game, whether it's worth joining and spending money on......
'Join fine but I would not spend a penny on it'. There are to many reasons to list as to why but the on going bugs, visual and gameplay, the general lack of respect for customers that seems to come across from the devs. I just get a feeling that those off us who post and use the forum, (usually long time members, ie old hands) seem to be disregarded as ranters and not simply impassioned fans of the IP and hopefulls of what the game could be.
Cider and forums should not mix but I'll post anyway.....
Where ever you go, there you are.......
Join The Space Invaders,..... Federation and KDF fleets.
It's funny how many people will get their questions and feedback responded to (and even acted upon in some cases) if the poster(s) in question are just plain civil and respectful to the devs. That doesn't mean agree with everything they say or do, or worship the ground they work on. But just having manners and knowing how to properly communicate to them is enough.
A little bit of civility goes a long way.
It is quite apparent, however, that there are many posters on the STO forums who not only believe they shouldn't have to be civil and respectful, but that part of Cryptic's job is to actually be abused by the players via the forums. Therefore, Cryptic actually becomes even worse at their job because they refuse to be treated like garbage by the posters!
And when enough of those players happen to become a 'trend', it shouldn't come as a surprise that Cryptic disregards many on the forums as whiners and ranters.
However, if people just offer a little bit of constructive feedback and treat people at Cryptic as fellow human beings instead of some kind of James Bond villain charicature, you would be amazed at just how often you might actually get your feedback acted upon.
As someone who has been on the forums for a while, I can say without any prejudice that there is more toxic vitriol and rhetoric than any sort of actual constructive feedback. Although that feedback is there, no matter how small it might be.
However, if people just offer a little bit of constructive feedback and treat people at Cryptic as human beings, you would be amazed at just how often you might actually get your feedback acted upon.
I'm pretty respectful when addressing devs on issues like bugs, gameplay suggestions and whatnot. And i want to believe that the above is true, but most of the time i just throw up my hands and say to myself 'whatever' because i know that if i bring something up it wont be addressed. There are probably legit reasons too like the dev team might be overloaded or that they have to stick to this 'vision' of what STO has to be and i try to tell myself that maybe thats what it is. But in the back of my mind i sometimes think...what if they really just dont give a s**t?
It's funny how many people will get their questions and feedback responded to (and even acted upon in some cases) if the poster(s) in question are just plain civil and respectful to the devs.
A little bit of civility goes a long way.
It is quite apparent, however, that there are many posters on the STO forums who not only believe they shouldn't have to be civil and respectful, but that part of Cryptic's job is to be abused by the players via the forums. Therefore, Cryptic actually becomes even worse at their job because they refuse to be treated like garbage by the posters!
And when enough of those players happen to become a 'trend', it shouldn't come as a surprise that Cryptic disregards many on the forums as whiners and ranters.
However, if people just offer a little bit of constructive feedback and treat people at Cryptic as fellow human beings instead of some kind of James Bond villain charicature, you would be amazed at just how often you might actually get your feedback acted upon.
As someone who has been on the forums for a while, I can say without any prejudice that there is more toxic vitriol and rhetoric than any sort of actual constructive feedback. Although that feedback is there, no matter how small it might be.
All true, but it goes both ways.
Certain devs have, lets say, not been that civil in some of their public utterences.
And a politely expressed lie is not much better than an angrily expressed truth.
While its absolutely true that forum posters, if they want their point to be heard, should at least be civil, there has to be a willingness to meet that civility.
It's not absolutely absent, that willingness, but its far from global.
And it is not as present as it should be in areas where you'd expect it to be strongest.
I'm pretty respectful when addressing devs on issues like bugs, gameplay suggestions and whatnot. And i want to believe that the above is true, but most of the time i just throw up my hands and say to myself 'whatever' because i know that if i bring something up it wont be addressed. There are probably legit reasons too like the dev team might be overloaded and i try to tell myself that maybe thats what it is. But in the back of my mind i sometimes think...what if they really just dont give a s**t?
Listening to feedback does not always mean acting upon the feedback. Listening to the players does not always mean acting upon what they say.
I've offered plenty of feedback, and protested plenty of changes I personally do not agree with, and I've been ignored there too. Ignored, perhaps, in the way that feedback isn't acted upon, but I actually don't doubt people at Cryptic actually read that feedback.
And you know what? That's their right. They're developers, and they can consider what I have to say, but in the end it's their game. But to say they don't act on player feedback at all falls into the area of blind cynicism.
If my feedback gets ignored? I might snark a bit, or really insist on that feedback being acted upon. But it's not worth getting venomous over.
Listening to feedback does not always mean acting upon the feedback. Listening to the players does not always mean acting upon what they say.
I've offered plenty of feedback, and protested plenty of changes I personally do not agree with, and I've been ignored there too. Ignored, perhaps, in the way that feedback isn't acted upon, but I actually don't doubt people at Cryptic actually read that feedback.
And you know what? That's their right. They're developers, and they can consider what I have to say, but in the end it's their game. But to say they don't act on player feedback at all falls into the area of blind cynicism.
If my feedback gets ignored? I might snark a bit, or really insist on that feedback being acted upon. But it's not worth getting venomous over.
I don't disagree, but what you're describing is not the same class as thing as 'feedbackwhatfeedback?' remarks about, for instance, the tribble testing of the doff UI.
This isn't an on or off thing.
Performance in this area is patchy.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it fails really hard.
Shouldn't really keep failing as hard as it does on occasion, as it smacks of a reticence to learn.
However, it's worth remembering as you pointed out earlier, if this sort of thing is to work it takes players to do the necessary as well.
Certain devs have, lets say, not been that civil in some of their public utterences.
And a politely expressed lie is not much better than an angrily expressed truth.
I think that's where I just plain disagree as a matter of ethics. I'd prefer someone to be polite, even if they lie to me. I only save anger and venom for those truly worthy of it -- if they make something personal out of it. Otherwise, I would just be showing my immaturity and unwillingness to be an adult over what should be considered routine development feedback.
Although I certainly understand your perspective that one is not much better than the other, even if I don't personally agree with it.
While its absolutely true that forum posters, if they want their point to be heard, should at least be civil, there has to be a willingness to meet that civility.
It's not absolutely absent, that willingness, but its far from global.
And it is not as present as it should be in areas where you'd expect it to be strongest.
I believe in fair play. If a particular dev is getting devoured, that is to say, the dev is getting slammed with personal attacks, has his/her competence questioned, is being dehumanized, or whatnot... I personally believe that dev has a right to dish it right back out.
Personally, if someone gives me a personal attack, I tend to just roll my eyes because they can't actually argue my points. And I more or less imagine that's what Cryptic does too. If the feedback consists of vagueries and non-specific details laced with personal attacks, I don't doubt they in turn just roll their eyes and simply refuse to respond.
That said, I've held the position as of late that their communication is severely lacking -- part of the issue is that kind of unwillingness to meet the players halfway, I agree. But I think there's plenty of work to be done on both ends of communication, not just one. Both the posters on the forums and the devs at Cryptic have to be willing to adjust their channels of communication so proper transception and reception becomes more viable.
Well, I definitely understand where you're coming from. I find that I'm a lot less eager to recommend the game to folks these days simply because of how much more of a treadmill with poor reward for investment it has become(a topic which probably belongs in a different thread).
Perhaps it's just me, but the game just isn't as.. unique.. as it was once. Each season seems to bring it closer and closer to becoming just another theme park(as opposed to a living, breathing sandbox/world to immerse yourself into) MMO with a Star Trek paint job on it - an experience most of my friends have already played to death with various other franchise.
As for the growing rift between the development team and the players.. I suppose some of that is the catch-22 of acquiring popularity by pursuing the lowest common denominator(the highest profit margin). Not only does it throw more voices into the mix, it also fractures community preferences exponentially - thus making it harder to cater to and keep satisfied. Rather than embrace the growing difficulty of diversity, the game is regressing to the point where it's not about playing the way you want to play - it's about playing the way the management dictates(much like a job.. that you pay for).
I digress though. Perhaps the expansion the team is no-doubt feverishly working on will breathe new life into the game and the aspirations of its playerbase....
But I think there's plenty of work to be done on both ends of communication, not just one. Both the posters on the forums and the devs at Cryptic have to be willing to adjust their channels of communication so proper transception and reception becomes more viable.
We may disagree on the details, but seems to me we broadly agree.
I think the reaction to confrontation is something that, naturally, varies from person to person.....even culture to culture.
Personally, I just think that the devs need to grow a slightly (only slightly) thicker skin, and many posters need to dial it down a few notches.
I always thought that PwE (Cryptic) was one of the better players in the Free 2 Play gaming marketplace.
All in game resources are transferable, and there's nothing you cannot obtain for free just by grinding out in game resources.
Compare that to limiting gameplay unless you buy a pass. Or can't use the best gear unless you sub. Or those damned little crafting gems. You have to have a +9 to run the raid, but everything past +4 breaks unless you buy the gems, which still don't guarantee your gear won't break.
If the only advice you have is don't spend a penny on STO, I'd say that's still a pretty good recommendation.
Personally, I just think that the devs need to grow a slightly (only slightly) thicker skin, and many posters need to dial it down a few notches.
Then everyone take a deep breath and start again.
I agree. I also think there needs to be a bit of forgiveness (again, from both ends), over the past four years.
I think if we're going to expect any sort of revitalized communication from Cryptic, we have to be willing to forgive mistakes made -- even if said mistakes were never acknowledged or apologized for. Only if the devs are willing to be forgiven, of course.
In turn, I think Cryptic should be more willing to forgive some of the players over the past four years, but only if the players are open and receptive to being forgiven.
More importantly, in addition to growing thicker skin and dialing the rhetoric back a notch, I think it's important that the players be more willing to police themselves, in addition to more heavy-handed moderation from PWE, along with Cryptic being more careful about when they plan to give out information, and what information is being given out.
Four years is a long time to hold onto resentment toward Cryptic, and resentment toward the playerbase. It leads to nowhere productive, and if we want to see some change, we have to be the change we want to see.
It's funny how many people will get their questions and feedback responded to (and even acted upon in some cases) if the poster(s) in question are just plain civil and respectful to the devs. That doesn't mean agree with everything they say or do, or worship the ground they work on. But just having manners and knowing how to properly communicate to them is enough.
A little bit of civility goes a long way.
It is quite apparent, however, that there are many posters on the STO forums who not only believe they shouldn't have to be civil and respectful, but that part of Cryptic's job is to actually be abused by the players via the forums. Therefore, Cryptic actually becomes even worse at their job because they refuse to be treated like garbage by the posters!
And when enough of those players happen to become a 'trend', it shouldn't come as a surprise that Cryptic disregards many on the forums as whiners and ranters.
However, if people just offer a little bit of constructive feedback and treat people at Cryptic as fellow human beings instead of some kind of James Bond villain charicature, you would be amazed at just how often you might actually get your feedback acted upon.
As someone who has been on the forums for a while, I can say without any prejudice that there is more toxic vitriol and rhetoric than any sort of actual constructive feedback. Although that feedback is there, no matter how small it might be.
I say a lot is sheer frustration, really. How many times have I asked Cryptic to fix the boff seating on my bridges? Or to give those Embassy boffs their missing limbs back? Not that I've actually been rude about those things, but just sayin' I can understand ppl feeling ignored -- resulting in an overall sense Cryptic doesn't care.
As for Cryptic who 'refuse to be treated like garbage by the posters,' I'd say they're actually pretty civil and professional about it. They never take (and make) it personal, which is really not always the case on other forums, believe me. The 'rudest' thing I've ever seen Cryptic do is kinda like Tacofangs put it: that, at some point, they simply decided to take the players out of the decision making equation. Which, ironically, loops back on people's sense of being ignored/dismissed.
Posting out of frustration should be the exception to the rule, it should by no means be something someone does on a regular basis. Every once in a while, sure. But as long as the feedback is civil and plainly comprehensible, I don't see any issue with it, as long as it doesn't become the usual method of posting.
How many times have I asked Cryptic to fix the boff seating on my bridges? Or to give those Embassy boffs their missing limbs back? Not that I've actually been rude about those things, but just sayin' I can understand ppl feeling ignored -- resulting in an overall sense Cryptic doesn't care.
And I've asked Cryptic to look into this or that, and they very clearly haven't. However, we see bug fixes quite often. Yes, there are many bugs that haven't been fixed yet -- and I'm sure there are plenty that will never be fixed.
But at the same time, there are many bugs (including long-lasting ones) that do eventually get tended to, but there are a few of us who willingly turn a blind eye to it in order to pile on the rhetoric.
If my feedback gets ignored, if my bug reports get ignored... I just shrug and go concentrate on some other issue.
I might use it as ammunition when it comes to another issue, to back up some claims or evidence, but to go Khan Noonien Singh over Cryptic and making a posting doctrine out of, "For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee!"
... well, I can't see how that goes anywhere productive.
As for Cryptic who 'refuse to be treated like garbage by the posters,' I'd say they're actually pretty civil and professional about it. They never take (and make) it personal, which is really not always the case on other forums, believe me. The 'rudest' thing I've ever seen Cryptic do is kinda like Tacofangs put it: that, at some point, they simply decided to take the players out of the decision making equation. Which, ironically, loops back on people's sense of being ignored/dismissed.
I think his comment on that was taken out of context. Possibly poorly communicated. But he's not incorrect in that they are the artists and developers and in the end it is their artistic liberties they are taking as developers. Yes, we are their customers, yes we are paying them, but just because they aren't acting on every bit of feedback doesn't mean they aren't acting on any feedback at all. And players need to be mindful that Cryptic's vision is never going to 100% match their own. It certainly doesn't match mine.
The line between player feedback and developer perogative and initiative is something that needed to be said, because there are far too many angry fanboys and fangirls who think because they're passionate about the game, that it gives them the right to tell developers what to do and when to do it. Rather than suggest they do this or that, which is how it should be.
Players need to be realistic with their expectations with STO. If they've been around for 4 years, they should know better than to expect to be taken seriously with unrealistic expectations, and acknowledge that even though they may think this or that, that the ship has long since sailed for this topic or that topic.
It's funny how many people will get their questions and feedback responded to (and even acted upon in some cases) if the poster(s) in question are just plain civil and respectful to the devs. That doesn't mean agree with everything they say or do, or worship the ground they work on. But just having manners and knowing how to properly communicate to them is enough.
A little bit of civility goes a long way.
I've been missing my Liberated Borg Reman Bridge Officer on one of my Romulan characters for about a year. It's not in my Bridge officer list, the candidate list, inventory, bank or overflow bag. There's no option to reclaim it or the Reman Duty Officer Mini-pack, even though it was stated in the claiming process post that we could reclaim them and the ships from the C-Store, nor is it hidden away in the D-store reclaim section. I've sent in numerous tickets about it, but I haven't heard a peep in reply and the problem remains.
Civility is always the way to go, but I definitely understand the feeling of being ignored.
It's funny how many people will get their questions and feedback responded to (and even acted upon in some cases) if the poster(s) in question are just plain civil and respectful to the devs. That doesn't mean agree with everything they say or do, or worship the ground they work on. But just having manners and knowing how to properly communicate to them is enough.
A little bit of civility goes a long way.
It is quite apparent, however, that there are many posters on the STO forums who not only believe they shouldn't have to be civil and respectful, but that part of Cryptic's job is to actually be abused by the players via the forums. Therefore, Cryptic actually becomes even worse at their job because they refuse to be treated like garbage by the posters!
And when enough of those players happen to become a 'trend', it shouldn't come as a surprise that Cryptic disregards many on the forums as whiners and ranters.
However, if people just offer a little bit of constructive feedback and treat people at Cryptic as fellow human beings instead of some kind of James Bond villain charicature, you would be amazed at just how often you might actually get your feedback acted upon.
As someone who has been on the forums for a while, I can say without any prejudice that there is more toxic vitriol and rhetoric than any sort of actual constructive feedback. Although that feedback is there, no matter how small it might be.
Well yea but they have to back up that faith too, lets take a small trip down memory lane. Prior to reputation, I was one of the lucky sobs who did stfs a couple days before, and was able to pick up a few things. Some of it not good, some of it good. Many of us myself included posted many posts saying do not do this. Well they went ahead and did it anyway, more then that they turned it into a massive dilithium sink to add insult to injury. That kind of treatment does not encourage civil actions.
Lets go further back now at launch many people including myself were hoping for a playable Romulan faction. To keep this small and to the point they did have things up on the website that kept that hope alive. So years later they start talking about a Romulan faction, many people, and I mean many people posted to make it a complete faction. Then a few well I am not going to say what they are, because I am having violent thoughts right now. Anyways they said no make it a part faction to the klingons and Romulans. So what did the devs do instead of going with the majority, they did a half faction for the Romulans. Worse mistake they ever did make. For the record I enjoy playing a Romulan and flying a warbird my complaint is the story, and the no Romulan designed fleet starbases or buildings. Most importantly had them serving the Feds and the KDF. Again more insult to injury.
Lets go more recent. I like the upgraded system for the R&D but now I have to redo it a third time. Again more insult to injury they built the thing around Random loot, and duty officers. Closed off the old exploration zones which were critical to being able to control you intake on certain samples. It does not inspire one seeing something like that.
More recent they announce the Delta quadrant. I am sorry but their is many bugs, many small things, and many more items that need to be done first. Before this game goes there. Top on my list is getting the Romulans out from under the Federation/KDF either as a full faction that is the Romulan Republic or the Romulan Star Empire. Otherwise to be honest I would be thrilled about this expansion, but with recent events what does one have to look forward to?
The list could go on and on. To be clear this is not a nay say post for sto, I was here a few months after launch, this game has changed/grown by leaps and bounds. There are several things I see now that I do like.
As far as spending money on sto, given the increased emphasis on Dilithium to strongly encourage people to buy zen, and the increase emphasis on duty officers. There is a serious weak point for being able to gear up by other means. Again back to the exploration zones, those missions of the Genesis set up were generic, and the ground missions were a pain in the but. The marks you could get gave you vital control over getting gear for you and your bridge officers that was above white. Also was a good way to prepp prior to end game. Now there is a gear gap where that once was. Until they fill that gap in, and I am speaking for your ship and bridge officers, this game has a hole in it Obviously the episode rewards are enough for one character but not enough for all your bridge officers. So No I don't think i could recommend this game just yet but its getting there I hope.
Posting out of frustration should be the exception to the rule, it should by no means be something someone does on a regular basis. Every once in a while, sure. But as long as the feedback is civil and plainly comprehensible, I don't see any issue with it, as long as it doesn't become the usual method of posting.
The onus is usually on those bringing the compaint to be cival and cordial. And for good reasons, of course. However, the tone of the language is often used as a cop-out to not having to listen to the complaint: "Oh, they were rude to me, so I can dismiss everything they said now." Professionals, who know not to take things personal, will understand frustration is, in itself, a message. Children, for example, grasp this concept perfectly. When their mother says "Will you *&$%^&* clean up your room now?!", they don't get to say "But iconians said you should be civil!" Rather, they perfectly understand that mom's frustration IS the message, and that they should take heed and listen now.
So, a good Community Manager, for example, should not just listen to 'civil and plainly comprehensible' posts. In fact, I'd go so far as to say he should probably not bother with posts like that. Seriously, it's the posts where you can clearly see ppl are fed up, that are of importance -- their tone despite. The trick is to observe, without judgement. To just take the frustration as an expression of what simply 'is,' without juding the wording, or whether you think they are right or wrong, and then relay that sentiment to the powers that be.
I might use it as ammunition when it comes to another issue, to back up some claims or evidence, but to go Khan Noonien Singh over Cryptic and making a posting doctrine out of, "For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee!"
... well, I can't see how that goes anywhere productive.
The slight hyperbole notwithstanding, it CAN be made to be productive, if the person in question reading it, dev or Community Manager, looks at the frustration behind it, and not just at the superficial words themselves. They can go "Oh, they're rude to us!" Or "Hmm, seems ppl are really p*ssed off about this issue; best take it seriously." A choice.
The line between player feedback and developer perogative and initiative is something that needed to be said, because there are far too many angry fanboys and fangirls who think because they're passionate about the game, that it gives them the right to tell developers what to do and when to do it. Rather than suggest they do this or that, which is how it should be.
Players need to be realistic with their expectations with STO. If they've been around for 4 years, they should know better than to expect to be taken seriously with unrealistic expectations, and acknowledge that even though they may think this or that, that the ship has long since sailed for this topic or that topic.
You seem to be under the impression we disagree on this. We don't. And I think Tacofangs et al. were wise to stop including the playerbase in their decision making process. The playerbase, as a whole, is simply too unruly, to be included in any real decision making endeavor. Allowing players to make decisions, and listening to them, are two different things, though.
First "Iconians" how is it you are a member since 2012 and have 3000 posts and I am a member since 2007 as proved by a closed thread and have zilch?
Someone PEASE tell me WTF and ya I am being civil is " Arcgames " and WTF do they have to do with PWE let alone Cryptic as well which probly Cryptic is gone anyways I dont know if they are still doing any STO support of any kind.
I know there is a Cryptic account thing - I had to ' FIGHT ' and email for several months - YES SEVERAL MONTHS with PWE customer service when PWE took over to get my accounts straightened out. These PWE customer service people live and act like they are from a different planet - when you have to continuously beg for help because these people dont know TRIBBLE and send pre-written computer garbage to you explaining what you are supposed to do - IT IS A SAD CASE OF AFFAIRS.
Now that has been about a year for me I think I dont know anymore time goes by so fast so I cant comment on how things are going repsect to the above; personally I dont want to know as long as I can get into my accounts I am a happy trekkie - but OMFG changing over from Cryptic with hard-earned cash in my account was the worst gaming nightmare I have ever been through; needless to say every PWE game I ever played SUKKED.
Now someone tells me try Neverwinter FTP - I will look at a few reviews and a few youtube vids and see what transpires - EVERY PWE game is PAY TO WIN - STO is NO EXCEPTION - when you are forced to even pay for your lvl 50 ships with real money - ya tell this is not a PAY GAME.
That being said ... it doesnt mean that STO Free to play isnt a great game ! In fact STO is the best FTP game out there - you probly just cant go PVP and expect to get anywhere just throw in your STO PvP hat there folks do us all a favor and leave STO FTP and dont cause waves for us what carebears?
I am not really a carebear; but what the hell am I supposed to do if and when I finish all the content - season missions - I am a very slow player I am level 35 and am levelling now just with my DOFFs; I can make level 50 in 2 weeks or less that way alone probly.
The game itself is in fact ' BORING ' ; but you have to have a certain attitude and gameplay style to alleviate this boredom. For me it is creating foundry missions or running DOFF missions or doing Diplomatic and Exploration missions which may have opportunities for game variance for as long as I am around as long as I dont play every night of the week.
These forums and forum account is now on another " Arcgame " website ???? WTF is this I am sorry but I am really mad here I dont care; I cant do anything with my forum account because my character exists on another website and when did this all take place??
Someone please help me to understand this transition for me and help tp make my STO the game that it always was to me: a good place to play a nice Free To Play game PvE (ya PvE); be with a few friends that otherwise I would never see; and even have challenges to my gaming skills (only in the Foundry because the game itself is too repetitive and boring: get mission - do space battle - do ground battle - go back to space and hope to survive - forced to play advanced if you want any decent drops (not a bad challenge really) rinse and repeat.
I have other ideas in mind and I think Foundry authors feel the same - in fact the Foundry was supposed to be the backbone of Future STO and the Foundry is really lacking in support; the Foundry needs SUPPORT and game boosting or I wont be around much longer.
By the way; here is proof of my own Sadness and the Sadness of my Forum Account:
I am currently running Foundry Demos and Intros, am getting in touch with Capt Smirk and the Foundry Missions site which looks kool; I like to help people and live stream; that's what I do. So I am not quite as sad as the past state of STO affairs which is a good thing - right? If my forum rank gets reinstated say in 24-48 hours - I might even be a happy trekkie.
Anyways now that ranter is done ranting
I never found this game to be boring, what mostly sends me packing is Dilithium sinks, emphasis on duty officers, and the non fixing of bugs. Yea the leveling is not the toughest but if you visit all the dailiy areas there is no way you are bored. Ive been in those areas. Saying the game is completely boring is well not right. As for me I got my bones to pick with this game as my post clearly states. For now ill watch.
Right I'm a trek nerd, watching Star Trek original series on BBC 2 at 6 when I was a kid, made sure tea and homework where finished. Going down to the local video store (remember those) to hire The Next Gen before it came on TV, watching each series as it came out in full. Even a full Star Trek movie marathon in the local cinema when Generations came out, 12 hours + on cinema seat is no joke.
Now the minute STO went FtP I joined and I've love it. I run a mid sized Fed fleet that I consider a lot of my members friends (The Space Invaders), I'm able to play most nights for a few hours and I enjoy it.
This game needs people to spend money to survive it's a business first a game second, a lot of people forget that.
But here's the thing, a few friends have asked about the game, whether it's worth joining and spending money on......
'Join fine but I would not spend a penny on it'. There are to many reasons to list as to why but the on going bugs, visual and gameplay, the general lack of respect for customers that seems to come across from the devs. I just get a feeling that those off us who post and use the forum, (usually long time members, ie old hands) seem to be disregarded as ranters and not simply impassioned fans of the IP and hopefulls of what the game could be.
Cider and forums should not mix but I'll post anyway.....
another day another comment. just waiting for the next one. that seems to be how it is out here on the forum these days.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Well we better stop posting if they not gonna read the forums why the heck we bother to wright someting down here.
If Taco said they are not willing to read any of this why are we writing on the pages anyway ???
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Coffee: the finest organic suspension ever devised. It's got me through the worst of the last three years. I beat the Borg with it."
Way I see it is people leaving the dishes around the house it accumulate.
Things haven't changes as much as they have built up over time.
When I started playing the summer before reputation I was almost entirely happy with everything.
Then started with reputation system that blocked my ground sets, and murdered my incentive to do more alts, it's just been one insanly over the top dumb decision after the next - many of which were tragicly pitiful aswell.
Hey let's nerf their vendor trash because we are too pitiful to let them have 30 k EC without us time gating 11x 20 hour daily projects.
It's the accumulation of targetting everything that was fun and sucking the life out of everything one little feature at a time, for years, that led here.
It wasn't magic or random co-incidence. some great mystery with a lot of in's and out's.
Any one of us can whip out a 3000 item list, by heart, right now and I don't doubt just thinking about it, is ulcer time for developers that like tacofangs said would rather have people sucking up to them
We no longer include the forums, or players in general
Thanks for posting this in your sig. I had been going back and forth as to whether or not I should uninstall this game. This has given me the push I needed.
Okay if you're going to quote a dev, especially from the FCT, do it right.
That's because we no longer include the forums, or players in general (outside of more controlled interview settings) to see the process, talk about what we're planning on doing, or what's up coming. Instead, by time we are ready to talk about a thing, it pretty much is set in stone. That's not saying there isn't some wiggle room. We'll take feedback on how something was put in, and tweak some stuff, but the process has likely already been going long enough that we can't just dump it all and start over again.
I know it's hard to swallow, but we ARE the ones to decide how something is going to be. We are the one's being paid to do so. You are welcome to disagree with us, and we will gladly listen to your opinion on the matter, and may even change something because of it, but at the end of the day, we are the developers of the game. We're always hiring, if you'd like to sit on this side of the fence, PLEASE APPLY!
No where does it state they don't want player opinions. Hell there is a thread in Tribble discussing powers, metagame etc so OBVIOUSLY they want opinions. They have made changes based on player response in the past, but most people ignore that fact to rant
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Okay if you're going to quote a dev, especially from the FCT, do it right.
No where does it state they don't want player opinions. Hell there is a thread in Tribble discussing powers, metagame etc so OBVIOUSLY they want opinions. They have made changes based on player response in the past, but most people ignore that fact to rant
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Okay if you're going to quote a dev, especially from the FCT, do it right.
Actally, "we no longer include the forums, or players in general" are the verbatim words of Tacofangs: can't do it more right than that. :P
No where does it state they don't want player opinions. Hell there is a thread in Tribble discussing powers, metagame etc so OBVIOUSLY they want opinions. They have made changes based on player response in the past, but most people ignore that fact to rant
And I don't see anyone argue that they're not listening to our opinions. I *do* occassionally see ppl feeling ignored, though. Especially when it comes to bugs, as bug-fixing (or, conversely, QA before releasing something) seems to have a very low priority.
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A little bit of civility goes a long way.
It is quite apparent, however, that there are many posters on the STO forums who not only believe they shouldn't have to be civil and respectful, but that part of Cryptic's job is to actually be abused by the players via the forums. Therefore, Cryptic actually becomes even worse at their job because they refuse to be treated like garbage by the posters!
And when enough of those players happen to become a 'trend', it shouldn't come as a surprise that Cryptic disregards many on the forums as whiners and ranters.
However, if people just offer a little bit of constructive feedback and treat people at Cryptic as fellow human beings instead of some kind of James Bond villain charicature, you would be amazed at just how often you might actually get your feedback acted upon.
As someone who has been on the forums for a while, I can say without any prejudice that there is more toxic vitriol and rhetoric than any sort of actual constructive feedback. Although that feedback is there, no matter how small it might be.
I'm pretty respectful when addressing devs on issues like bugs, gameplay suggestions and whatnot. And i want to believe that the above is true, but most of the time i just throw up my hands and say to myself 'whatever' because i know that if i bring something up it wont be addressed. There are probably legit reasons too like the dev team might be overloaded or that they have to stick to this 'vision' of what STO has to be and i try to tell myself that maybe thats what it is. But in the back of my mind i sometimes think...what if they really just dont give a s**t?
All true, but it goes both ways.
Certain devs have, lets say, not been that civil in some of their public utterences.
And a politely expressed lie is not much better than an angrily expressed truth.
While its absolutely true that forum posters, if they want their point to be heard, should at least be civil, there has to be a willingness to meet that civility.
It's not absolutely absent, that willingness, but its far from global.
And it is not as present as it should be in areas where you'd expect it to be strongest.
Listening to feedback does not always mean acting upon the feedback. Listening to the players does not always mean acting upon what they say.
I've offered plenty of feedback, and protested plenty of changes I personally do not agree with, and I've been ignored there too. Ignored, perhaps, in the way that feedback isn't acted upon, but I actually don't doubt people at Cryptic actually read that feedback.
And you know what? That's their right. They're developers, and they can consider what I have to say, but in the end it's their game. But to say they don't act on player feedback at all falls into the area of blind cynicism.
If my feedback gets ignored? I might snark a bit, or really insist on that feedback being acted upon. But it's not worth getting venomous over.
I'm pretty sure you know the answer, without needing to ask.
If they want to play, let them try it out. But give them both the good points and the bad points from your own experience.
I don't disagree, but what you're describing is not the same class as thing as 'feedbackwhatfeedback?' remarks about, for instance, the tribble testing of the doff UI.
This isn't an on or off thing.
Performance in this area is patchy.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it fails really hard.
Shouldn't really keep failing as hard as it does on occasion, as it smacks of a reticence to learn.
However, it's worth remembering as you pointed out earlier, if this sort of thing is to work it takes players to do the necessary as well.
I think that's where I just plain disagree as a matter of ethics. I'd prefer someone to be polite, even if they lie to me. I only save anger and venom for those truly worthy of it -- if they make something personal out of it. Otherwise, I would just be showing my immaturity and unwillingness to be an adult over what should be considered routine development feedback.
Although I certainly understand your perspective that one is not much better than the other, even if I don't personally agree with it.
I believe in fair play. If a particular dev is getting devoured, that is to say, the dev is getting slammed with personal attacks, has his/her competence questioned, is being dehumanized, or whatnot... I personally believe that dev has a right to dish it right back out.
Personally, if someone gives me a personal attack, I tend to just roll my eyes because they can't actually argue my points. And I more or less imagine that's what Cryptic does too. If the feedback consists of vagueries and non-specific details laced with personal attacks, I don't doubt they in turn just roll their eyes and simply refuse to respond.
That said, I've held the position as of late that their communication is severely lacking -- part of the issue is that kind of unwillingness to meet the players halfway, I agree. But I think there's plenty of work to be done on both ends of communication, not just one. Both the posters on the forums and the devs at Cryptic have to be willing to adjust their channels of communication so proper transception and reception becomes more viable.
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Perhaps it's just me, but the game just isn't as.. unique.. as it was once. Each season seems to bring it closer and closer to becoming just another theme park(as opposed to a living, breathing sandbox/world to immerse yourself into) MMO with a Star Trek paint job on it - an experience most of my friends have already played to death with various other franchise.
As for the growing rift between the development team and the players.. I suppose some of that is the catch-22 of acquiring popularity by pursuing the lowest common denominator(the highest profit margin). Not only does it throw more voices into the mix, it also fractures community preferences exponentially - thus making it harder to cater to and keep satisfied. Rather than embrace the growing difficulty of diversity, the game is regressing to the point where it's not about playing the way you want to play - it's about playing the way the management dictates(much like a job.. that you pay for).
I digress though. Perhaps the expansion the team is no-doubt feverishly working on will breathe new life into the game and the aspirations of its playerbase....
We may disagree on the details, but seems to me we broadly agree.
I think the reaction to confrontation is something that, naturally, varies from person to person.....even culture to culture.
Personally, I just think that the devs need to grow a slightly (only slightly) thicker skin, and many posters need to dial it down a few notches.
Then everyone take a deep breath and start again.
All in game resources are transferable, and there's nothing you cannot obtain for free just by grinding out in game resources.
Compare that to limiting gameplay unless you buy a pass. Or can't use the best gear unless you sub. Or those damned little crafting gems. You have to have a +9 to run the raid, but everything past +4 breaks unless you buy the gems, which still don't guarantee your gear won't break.
If the only advice you have is don't spend a penny on STO, I'd say that's still a pretty good recommendation.
I agree. I also think there needs to be a bit of forgiveness (again, from both ends), over the past four years.
I think if we're going to expect any sort of revitalized communication from Cryptic, we have to be willing to forgive mistakes made -- even if said mistakes were never acknowledged or apologized for. Only if the devs are willing to be forgiven, of course.
In turn, I think Cryptic should be more willing to forgive some of the players over the past four years, but only if the players are open and receptive to being forgiven.
More importantly, in addition to growing thicker skin and dialing the rhetoric back a notch, I think it's important that the players be more willing to police themselves, in addition to more heavy-handed moderation from PWE, along with Cryptic being more careful about when they plan to give out information, and what information is being given out.
Four years is a long time to hold onto resentment toward Cryptic, and resentment toward the playerbase. It leads to nowhere productive, and if we want to see some change, we have to be the change we want to see.
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I say a lot is sheer frustration, really. How many times have I asked Cryptic to fix the boff seating on my bridges? Or to give those Embassy boffs their missing limbs back? Not that I've actually been rude about those things, but just sayin' I can understand ppl feeling ignored -- resulting in an overall sense Cryptic doesn't care.
As for Cryptic who 'refuse to be treated like garbage by the posters,' I'd say they're actually pretty civil and professional about it. They never take (and make) it personal, which is really not always the case on other forums, believe me. The 'rudest' thing I've ever seen Cryptic do is kinda like Tacofangs put it: that, at some point, they simply decided to take the players out of the decision making equation. Which, ironically, loops back on people's sense of being ignored/dismissed.
Posting out of frustration should be the exception to the rule, it should by no means be something someone does on a regular basis. Every once in a while, sure. But as long as the feedback is civil and plainly comprehensible, I don't see any issue with it, as long as it doesn't become the usual method of posting.
And I've asked Cryptic to look into this or that, and they very clearly haven't. However, we see bug fixes quite often. Yes, there are many bugs that haven't been fixed yet -- and I'm sure there are plenty that will never be fixed.
But at the same time, there are many bugs (including long-lasting ones) that do eventually get tended to, but there are a few of us who willingly turn a blind eye to it in order to pile on the rhetoric.
If my feedback gets ignored, if my bug reports get ignored... I just shrug and go concentrate on some other issue.
I might use it as ammunition when it comes to another issue, to back up some claims or evidence, but to go Khan Noonien Singh over Cryptic and making a posting doctrine out of, "For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee!"
... well, I can't see how that goes anywhere productive.
I think his comment on that was taken out of context. Possibly poorly communicated. But he's not incorrect in that they are the artists and developers and in the end it is their artistic liberties they are taking as developers. Yes, we are their customers, yes we are paying them, but just because they aren't acting on every bit of feedback doesn't mean they aren't acting on any feedback at all. And players need to be mindful that Cryptic's vision is never going to 100% match their own. It certainly doesn't match mine.
The line between player feedback and developer perogative and initiative is something that needed to be said, because there are far too many angry fanboys and fangirls who think because they're passionate about the game, that it gives them the right to tell developers what to do and when to do it. Rather than suggest they do this or that, which is how it should be.
Players need to be realistic with their expectations with STO. If they've been around for 4 years, they should know better than to expect to be taken seriously with unrealistic expectations, and acknowledge that even though they may think this or that, that the ship has long since sailed for this topic or that topic.
I've been missing my Liberated Borg Reman Bridge Officer on one of my Romulan characters for about a year. It's not in my Bridge officer list, the candidate list, inventory, bank or overflow bag. There's no option to reclaim it or the Reman Duty Officer Mini-pack, even though it was stated in the claiming process post that we could reclaim them and the ships from the C-Store, nor is it hidden away in the D-store reclaim section. I've sent in numerous tickets about it, but I haven't heard a peep in reply and the problem remains.
Civility is always the way to go, but I definitely understand the feeling of being ignored.
Well yea but they have to back up that faith too, lets take a small trip down memory lane. Prior to reputation, I was one of the lucky sobs who did stfs a couple days before, and was able to pick up a few things. Some of it not good, some of it good. Many of us myself included posted many posts saying do not do this. Well they went ahead and did it anyway, more then that they turned it into a massive dilithium sink to add insult to injury. That kind of treatment does not encourage civil actions.
Lets go further back now at launch many people including myself were hoping for a playable Romulan faction. To keep this small and to the point they did have things up on the website that kept that hope alive. So years later they start talking about a Romulan faction, many people, and I mean many people posted to make it a complete faction. Then a few well I am not going to say what they are, because I am having violent thoughts right now. Anyways they said no make it a part faction to the klingons and Romulans. So what did the devs do instead of going with the majority, they did a half faction for the Romulans. Worse mistake they ever did make. For the record I enjoy playing a Romulan and flying a warbird my complaint is the story, and the no Romulan designed fleet starbases or buildings. Most importantly had them serving the Feds and the KDF. Again more insult to injury.
Lets go more recent. I like the upgraded system for the R&D but now I have to redo it a third time. Again more insult to injury they built the thing around Random loot, and duty officers. Closed off the old exploration zones which were critical to being able to control you intake on certain samples. It does not inspire one seeing something like that.
More recent they announce the Delta quadrant. I am sorry but their is many bugs, many small things, and many more items that need to be done first. Before this game goes there. Top on my list is getting the Romulans out from under the Federation/KDF either as a full faction that is the Romulan Republic or the Romulan Star Empire. Otherwise to be honest I would be thrilled about this expansion, but with recent events what does one have to look forward to?
The list could go on and on. To be clear this is not a nay say post for sto, I was here a few months after launch, this game has changed/grown by leaps and bounds. There are several things I see now that I do like.
As far as spending money on sto, given the increased emphasis on Dilithium to strongly encourage people to buy zen, and the increase emphasis on duty officers. There is a serious weak point for being able to gear up by other means. Again back to the exploration zones, those missions of the Genesis set up were generic, and the ground missions were a pain in the but. The marks you could get gave you vital control over getting gear for you and your bridge officers that was above white. Also was a good way to prepp prior to end game. Now there is a gear gap where that once was. Until they fill that gap in, and I am speaking for your ship and bridge officers, this game has a hole in it Obviously the episode rewards are enough for one character but not enough for all your bridge officers. So No I don't think i could recommend this game just yet but its getting there I hope.
The onus is usually on those bringing the compaint to be cival and cordial. And for good reasons, of course. However, the tone of the language is often used as a cop-out to not having to listen to the complaint: "Oh, they were rude to me, so I can dismiss everything they said now." Professionals, who know not to take things personal, will understand frustration is, in itself, a message. Children, for example, grasp this concept perfectly. When their mother says "Will you *&$%^&* clean up your room now?!", they don't get to say "But iconians said you should be civil!" Rather, they perfectly understand that mom's frustration IS the message, and that they should take heed and listen now.
So, a good Community Manager, for example, should not just listen to 'civil and plainly comprehensible' posts. In fact, I'd go so far as to say he should probably not bother with posts like that. Seriously, it's the posts where you can clearly see ppl are fed up, that are of importance -- their tone despite. The trick is to observe, without judgement. To just take the frustration as an expression of what simply 'is,' without juding the wording, or whether you think they are right or wrong, and then relay that sentiment to the powers that be.
The slight hyperbole notwithstanding, it CAN be made to be productive, if the person in question reading it, dev or Community Manager, looks at the frustration behind it, and not just at the superficial words themselves. They can go "Oh, they're rude to us!" Or "Hmm, seems ppl are really p*ssed off about this issue; best take it seriously." A choice.
You seem to be under the impression we disagree on this. We don't. And I think Tacofangs et al. were wise to stop including the playerbase in their decision making process. The playerbase, as a whole, is simply too unruly, to be included in any real decision making endeavor. Allowing players to make decisions, and listening to them, are two different things, though.
First "Iconians" how is it you are a member since 2012 and have 3000 posts and I am a member since 2007 as proved by a closed thread and have zilch?
Someone PEASE tell me WTF and ya I am being civil is " Arcgames " and WTF do they have to do with PWE let alone Cryptic as well which probly Cryptic is gone anyways I dont know if they are still doing any STO support of any kind.
I know there is a Cryptic account thing - I had to ' FIGHT ' and email for several months - YES SEVERAL MONTHS with PWE customer service when PWE took over to get my accounts straightened out. These PWE customer service people live and act like they are from a different planet - when you have to continuously beg for help because these people dont know TRIBBLE and send pre-written computer garbage to you explaining what you are supposed to do - IT IS A SAD CASE OF AFFAIRS.
Now that has been about a year for me I think I dont know anymore time goes by so fast so I cant comment on how things are going repsect to the above; personally I dont want to know as long as I can get into my accounts I am a happy trekkie - but OMFG changing over from Cryptic with hard-earned cash in my account was the worst gaming nightmare I have ever been through; needless to say every PWE game I ever played SUKKED.
Now someone tells me try Neverwinter FTP - I will look at a few reviews and a few youtube vids and see what transpires - EVERY PWE game is PAY TO WIN - STO is NO EXCEPTION - when you are forced to even pay for your lvl 50 ships with real money - ya tell this is not a PAY GAME.
That being said ... it doesnt mean that STO Free to play isnt a great game ! In fact STO is the best FTP game out there - you probly just cant go PVP and expect to get anywhere just throw in your STO PvP hat there folks do us all a favor and leave STO FTP and dont cause waves for us what carebears?
I am not really a carebear; but what the hell am I supposed to do if and when I finish all the content - season missions - I am a very slow player I am level 35 and am levelling now just with my DOFFs; I can make level 50 in 2 weeks or less that way alone probly.
The game itself is in fact ' BORING ' ; but you have to have a certain attitude and gameplay style to alleviate this boredom. For me it is creating foundry missions or running DOFF missions or doing Diplomatic and Exploration missions which may have opportunities for game variance for as long as I am around as long as I dont play every night of the week.
These forums and forum account is now on another " Arcgame " website ???? WTF is this I am sorry but I am really mad here I dont care; I cant do anything with my forum account because my character exists on another website and when did this all take place??
Someone please help me to understand this transition for me and help tp make my STO the game that it always was to me: a good place to play a nice Free To Play game PvE (ya PvE); be with a few friends that otherwise I would never see; and even have challenges to my gaming skills (only in the Foundry because the game itself is too repetitive and boring: get mission - do space battle - do ground battle - go back to space and hope to survive - forced to play advanced if you want any decent drops (not a bad challenge really) rinse and repeat.
I have other ideas in mind and I think Foundry authors feel the same - in fact the Foundry was supposed to be the backbone of Future STO and the Foundry is really lacking in support; the Foundry needs SUPPORT and game boosting or I wont be around much longer.
By the way; here is proof of my own Sadness and the Sadness of my Forum Account:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=248500
I have a right to have my RANK Re-Instated - Effective Yesterday.
This Arcgames TRIBBLE demoted me just because of what I dont know - this is SAD.
BTW since I like STO so much I even Live Stream so if you want a pick-me-up head on over:
http://www.twitch.tv/cdr_zeta
I am currently running Foundry Demos and Intros, am getting in touch with Capt Smirk and the Foundry Missions site which looks kool; I like to help people and live stream; that's what I do. So I am not quite as sad as the past state of STO affairs which is a good thing - right? If my forum rank gets reinstated say in 24-48 hours - I might even be a happy trekkie.
Commander Zeta :cool:
I never found this game to be boring, what mostly sends me packing is Dilithium sinks, emphasis on duty officers, and the non fixing of bugs. Yea the leveling is not the toughest but if you visit all the dailiy areas there is no way you are bored. Ive been in those areas. Saying the game is completely boring is well not right. As for me I got my bones to pick with this game as my post clearly states. For now ill watch.
another day another comment. just waiting for the next one. that seems to be how it is out here on the forum these days.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Join The Space Invaders,..... Federation and KDF fleets.
If Taco said they are not willing to read any of this why are we writing on the pages anyway ???
"Coffee: the finest organic suspension ever devised. It's got me through the worst of the last three years. I beat the Borg with it."
Things haven't changes as much as they have built up over time.
When I started playing the summer before reputation I was almost entirely happy with everything.
Then started with reputation system that blocked my ground sets, and murdered my incentive to do more alts, it's just been one insanly over the top dumb decision after the next - many of which were tragicly pitiful aswell.
Hey let's nerf their vendor trash because we are too pitiful to let them have 30 k EC without us time gating 11x 20 hour daily projects.
It's the accumulation of targetting everything that was fun and sucking the life out of everything one little feature at a time, for years, that led here.
It wasn't magic or random co-incidence. some great mystery with a lot of in's and out's.
Any one of us can whip out a 3000 item list, by heart, right now and I don't doubt just thinking about it, is ulcer time for developers that like tacofangs said would rather have people sucking up to them
Thanks for posting this in your sig. I had been going back and forth as to whether or not I should uninstall this game. This has given me the push I needed.
No where does it state they don't want player opinions. Hell there is a thread in Tribble discussing powers, metagame etc so OBVIOUSLY they want opinions. They have made changes based on player response in the past, but most people ignore that fact to rant
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Actally, "we no longer include the forums, or players in general" are the verbatim words of Tacofangs: can't do it more right than that. :P
And I don't see anyone argue that they're not listening to our opinions. I *do* occassionally see ppl feeling ignored, though. Especially when it comes to bugs, as bug-fixing (or, conversely, QA before releasing something) seems to have a very low priority.