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Ships Are Not A Game - Why I say no thanks to T6 ships
gooddaytodie39
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
The Romulans and Klingons could use a couple more ships each to round out their options and bring them in line with the number of Fed ships available. Maybe some updates on older ships are needed, but in general, T6 ships are completely unnecessary and from what I've read since the announcement, unwanted.
Like the title says, Ships are not a game. What I mean by that is that what this game is sorely lacking is new content. We're going to have T6 ships, but what will be doing that will need T6 ships for the long term? Especially if everyone is still only running the same STFs they always do because of better rewards.
Cryptic is essentially shaming us and using cheap con psychology to get us to buy into the whole idea. "Your ship will not be obsolete, but you'll really want to buy these new ships with awesome powers that your old ships won't have and can't get". Not an exact quote, but that's my interpretation of it.
There are people that want to do well in space combat, there are people that want to fly their iconic Trek ships, there are people who have devoted hundreds of hours and or dollars into their current favorite ships, so why should we have to choose one or the other?
This MMO is not like others. Ships are not just our mounts we use to get around on. For some, they are the "Character" more so than the little humanoid we create when we started playing. Because of the unique dynamic here, I don't think that the business model based on a never ending stream of new ships, each one more powerful than the last, is sustainable. Even for casual players.
Think about what brings people to STO? Trek. They sure as hell don't come here for the cutting edge gameplay, amazing graphics, exceptional story telling, excellent voice acting etc.
If I want those things, I go play SWTOR. But I digress. I'm not going to speculate about what the T6 ships will have or not have or anything related. My disagreement is with the fundamental direction the game has been going in since LoR.
I do indeed think this expansion will be the make or break moment for STO and I don't think it will be good. If PWE does not see a rerturn on their investment like they did with LoR there most likely will not be another one. I completely disagree that this game needed a level cap raise as well. So at this point, Delta Rising means nothing to me. I'm not interested in T6 ships, or anything Voyager related.
This is not a thread to debate the meaning of words like "competitive" and other nonsense that gets repeated here ad nauseum. This thread is solely meant to tell Cryptic that I don't want T6 ships or a level cap raise. I will vote with my time and my wallet and I recommend you do the same. What I've seen over and over is that people are well addicted to this game and will complain then go on and buy whats offered and play what's offered and rationalize it later. Please don't do that.
I don't think Cryptic will not change anything they do until they have no other choice. That's what it's like dealing with arrogance (Geko).
Like the title says, Ships are not a game. What I mean by that is that what this game is sorely lacking is new content. We're going to have T6 ships, but what will be doing that will need T6 ships for the long term? Especially if everyone is still only running the same STFs they always do because of better rewards.
Cryptic is essentially shaming us and using cheap con psychology to get us to buy into the whole idea. "Your ship will not be obsolete, but you'll really want to buy these new ships with awesome powers that your old ships won't have and can't get". Not an exact quote, but that's my interpretation of it.
There are people that want to do well in space combat, there are people that want to fly their iconic Trek ships, there are people who have devoted hundreds of hours and or dollars into their current favorite ships, so why should we have to choose one or the other?
This MMO is not like others. Ships are not just our mounts we use to get around on. For some, they are the "Character" more so than the little humanoid we create when we started playing. Because of the unique dynamic here, I don't think that the business model based on a never ending stream of new ships, each one more powerful than the last, is sustainable. Even for casual players.
Think about what brings people to STO? Trek. They sure as hell don't come here for the cutting edge gameplay, amazing graphics, exceptional story telling, excellent voice acting etc.
If I want those things, I go play SWTOR. But I digress. I'm not going to speculate about what the T6 ships will have or not have or anything related. My disagreement is with the fundamental direction the game has been going in since LoR.
I do indeed think this expansion will be the make or break moment for STO and I don't think it will be good. If PWE does not see a rerturn on their investment like they did with LoR there most likely will not be another one. I completely disagree that this game needed a level cap raise as well. So at this point, Delta Rising means nothing to me. I'm not interested in T6 ships, or anything Voyager related.
This is not a thread to debate the meaning of words like "competitive" and other nonsense that gets repeated here ad nauseum. This thread is solely meant to tell Cryptic that I don't want T6 ships or a level cap raise. I will vote with my time and my wallet and I recommend you do the same. What I've seen over and over is that people are well addicted to this game and will complain then go on and buy whats offered and play what's offered and rationalize it later. Please don't do that.
I don't think Cryptic will not change anything they do until they have no other choice. That's what it's like dealing with arrogance (Geko).
Post edited by gooddaytodie39 on
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You shouldn't. If they try and force that decision on the players, they will lose a lot of business.
If only they'd actually reveal some relevant information about what's going to happen.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=18692121&postcount=7
I'm sorry to people who I, in the past, insulted, annoyed, etc.
You know what's the most worrying part about that post? The fact that he says that they only release information once the system is fully operational. That means they're not done yet...
Just sayin'
Although they'd never admit it, of course, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they're looking at community feedback to determine how much, and if, they can charge for the 'competitive' upgrades of our T5 lockbox ships. Companies are always looking for the edge of 'What we can get away with.'
So, people, by all means, keep raging against high upgrade cost!
That thread, like many others on the topic of this information, apparently is closed?
Weird.
In any event, the OP raises a very valid issue.
This game, because it's Star Trek, has many players very much tied into their ship. Their character, it's story, it's all very tied into the ship they fly.
So it's not quite the same dynamic as in say your average Fantasy MMO.
There you replace your super sparkly sword of +7 with a dark glowing sword of +9 and you don't really lose much attachment.
Here? Though? Giving up your Excelsior? That's going to cause riots. Absolute riots.
Tier 6? It's got the potential to blow up in their faces.
I don't know. I mean Cryptic has always had problems with balance, and tiers and layout and design. But this one, this one's big.
Of course, with no relevant information to go on ... who the heck knows.
It's getting tiresome actually. My level of caring is dipping fast. But I do have a lot of empathy and concern for the Star Trek Online players who still feel that love of Star Trek to the point where they have whole crews decked out in the uniforms that would match that era's ship that they fly. Those are Trek fans after my own heart. And I really don't want to see them trampled by bad design decisions that I fear could readily happen just by the mere mention of the acronym T6.
Indeed... And in my opinion, which I am probably going to get flamed about, is that the OP is wrong.... Ship do make up the game... The more ships to choose the better. A mayor part of Star Trek has to do with the ships, so why wouldn't STO focus somewhat on more ships and ships being primary...
But then again, this is my opinion.... sooo....
I think the OP is all for MORE ships.
The OP's concern is that T6 actually narrows the scope. Making it LESS Ships at T6.
Because T6 will prompt people to move out of T5 ships. And there are as stated only going to be 6 or 7 total T6 ships, across the 3 factions.
The dynamic is that it could remove options. Not open them up.
Because the numbers involved suggest something that runs counter to what they've said.
IF T6 is equivalent to T5 then just call it T5. Calling it T6 suggests it is a higher tier than T5. Which means T5 is less. How much less? Who knows. But in the world of MMOs, less is less. And gamers have no patience for less.
Heh, it's not a flame or anything...but consider this...er, each series was basically about a single ship. They weren't ship hopping.
Admiral Quinn is Starfleet's Chief Parking Lot Attendant...
In Star Bound, one level is the deference of being able to take hits, or getting 1-hit. Things could get that steep in STO, if the developers choose to.
As for the T6s. I'm not concerned as I'm a more wait and see what happens. All we can do is speculate on what they will be. I'm not worried like most saying the older ships will be obsolete as my regular T5s can handle what the game throws at me. So I wouldn't mind something with more challenge.
I won't be buying the T6s. Specially if they they mostly look like the strange ships I saw sneak peaks of. That they did show us. If I need to upgrade the ships, then we will see what it takes to do it. If too much, then I will have to pick wisely and go that route.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
I, for one, won't do that anymore. I won't grind again for weapons, shields, ground kits, reputation ground or space sets, or ship consoles, knowing I already spent two years help building my fleet to get the gear I have now, running reputation system missions on countless characters and doing the same PvE missions over and over again.
I have worked for and devoted time and real life money to this game before, I'm not going to start all over again.
Surely not after the total lack of respect and the way we've been treated the last couple of weeks. It took a full working week before we got the first post (that friday after the convention), which pretty much didn't tell us anything new, just a summary of the news from that same convention. It took another half a week before we got a second post, and it only contained some information about species that were on screen twenty (!) friggin' years ago. A link to the memory alpha wiki was about as useful as that blog post.
Since they obviously don't care about the concerns people have, I stopped caring as well. I simply don't care anymore. And why would I spend another Euro, or another hour grinding if I don't care?
Edit: If you ever encounter me with MkXII gear in a T5 ship, while everyone else flies better geared ships, you now know why.
Lest you forget, these same devs at the same Vegas venue stated quite clearly that they are working on making the game more challenging.
So the game will throw more at you in the expansion.
The example I've cited in another thread is ... T5 ship like a Star Cruiser stays "competitive" right now because the bar is set so low.
But they're making another tier.
AND raising the bar.
According to them at least.
It's all speculation right now. But what they are touting seems to have a lot of moving parts that don't all work well with each other in the grand scheme of things.
Hence the rampant worries you see in the forums.
How can T6 not be superior to T5 and still be T6?
How can the old ships stay competitive when they say they're making the game more challenging?
How does that fit together?
EDIT: Oh yeah, and Hawk says they're planning on revamping space combat. A big revamp of BOFF abilities.
I mean really, this is all insane when pieced together like a puzzle and then considered through the past history of their development track record.
I'd be all Jeff Goldblum up in this. Be afraid, be very afraid.
Good I'm more for it. I can handle it. For once I will have to use some of Boff skills I don't use often. I say bring it. So far only the Voth gave me something of a challenge. But after you figured out their attacks, they too fell to my weapons.
Many players has been asking for more challenge. So I'm sure they will up the bar.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Since the expansion also reportedly includes raising the level cap to 60, another tier of ships would seem appropriate to this.
I don't hear anyone screaming about being "forced" to abandon their starter ship when they hit 10 (well, except for those who bought the T1 Connie and want it to be T5). Nor when you "have to" upgrade to T3 at lvl 20. Why is this particular transition causing so much tsuris?
My character Tsin'xing
Because for what we know at the moment, there won't be a canon Star Trek ship left at top-notch T6 anymore. And that's a serious issue. If you can't understand this, I don't know what to say.
There's also another thing - ships are our secondary, or even primary, avatars in STO. I have been using certain ships for certain characters at end game level for more than 2 years now. When I wanted to play another, newly released, ship - I usually made a new character around it.
Personally, I've got nothing against raising a tier. What I have issues with is the rather vague statement "T5 ships will be competitive, but T6 ships with have something that will make you want them". That doesn't bode well. Does this mean that I need to leave my Galaxy, Vesta, B'rel, etc. if I want to go to the top progression the game offers?
Now they could make T5 ships upgradable to full and complete T6, regardless of the price. They won't hear another word from me on the topic. However, if they want to try forcing me to switch ship classes/designs if I want to have a complete T6 ship - then we have a problem.
That's weird. I've seen hundreds of posts on those exact topics.
Fleet ships EXIST because of those old topics. Because people didn't want to abandon their Nova. Or their Sovereign. Or their whatever.
I know you read those posts.
People want to fly their favorite ship. In a Star Trek game. It's not that shocking. They never wanted to abandon their favorite ship.
T5 Miranda threads ring any bells?
T5 NX threads?
How many times have they started a thread asking for a system to allow one's ship to ... get this ... Level With The Player.
Do we frequent the same forums? This has been an issue since launch day.
And when they up the bar, and your favorite T5 ship can't cut it, and your groupmates loudly let you know ...
See where the worry comes from?
How does T5 stay competitive against T+Number-Higher? And how does it stay competitive in content that raises the bar?
How is this MAGIC going to happen?
It's a valid concern.
To answer the question you didnt ask: STO end-game does not justify making those purchases all over again, especially considering that it is an arbitrary change that could be replayed any time Cryptic wants to squeeze the milk cow again. Upgrades of hulls and the component parts has to be either free or very close to it to justify. Otherwise better off putting the money into another venture.
Maybe because they are looking for feedback on the forums before making any final decisions on building everything.
Of course it's kinda hard when most posts about T6 ships are "Cryptic is gonna TRIBBLE us over!" and "My ship will be useless and they gonna force me to buy a new T6".
They have said multiple times not to worry about our T5 ships and they will take care of us. We don't need 50 friggin' threads on the forums ******** about it when we have almost no information yet.
What worries me isn't that its not done. Its that when they do tell us it will be DONE and thus they wont change it even if we all hate it. Making major design choices without first getting feedback from the players who actually play/support the game is a bad idea.
Prime example, throwing the BO change to live with 0 testing resulting in every BO skill npc's use to be 100% crit/ton of other issues with it. A smart move is to test the waters before you sink tons of money and man power into something.
You dont go build a house for someone without asking them what they would like, what their needs are. You outline the system, THEN get feedback, modify it if need be, THEN build it. Measure twice, cut once.
Did we spend time meticulously planning out and grinding for gear on our low level ships? I didn't. I don't want to scrap my favorite ship, which essentially carries the legacy of my character, and which I spent years perfecting, because it's under par. This is no simple tier transition like lower levels. This is forcefully and, unless I can make my ship full and/or entirely equivalent to T6, badly implementing a transition that simply doesn't work 2.5 years late.
2 years ago, they did Fleet gear.
That was 2 years after it started.
2 years later, they're actually doing a T6.
2 years from now, there will likely be a similar increase - either T7 or what they did with the Fleet stuff.
It's common practice in the MMO industry. You grind for a period of time. You then get to do it all over again...and again...and again...and again. The longer a game goes - the more times it will happen.
That's a solid point. But in the past they create threads specifically for such feedback right? Like even the crafting revamp had very specific threads created just for that feedback.
None have been created on this topic yet.
Which is why the feedback has generally been, as you state:
I mean, I can't fault people for voicing their concerns with what info has been given thus far (none).
That's all they've said. No information. So speculation happens.
In this case, I think we do. It underscores how important a topic it is. It also is a topic with a variety of variables and factors involved, so it's hard to keep it so narrow. There's the lockbox ships. There's T5 ships. Fleet ships. Consoles and weapons bought. There's the talk of harder content. There's the talk of space combat revamp. It's hard to keep this all as one thread with all that being involved.
And it's also frustrating to continually see every thread on this topic thuggishly shut down. I mean really, what the heck is the point of that?
People WANT to talk about this. It's a major aspect of the expansion. Why get all Wishstone about it? We know what happened when Wishstone got all Wishstone. Let people talk about this. They need to vent. They need to speculate.
And heaven forbid ANYONE at Cryptic try to use this whole T6 thing as a marketing tool to hype up the expansion. That'd make far too much sense I guess.
Instead stifle and choke any and all talk about it right?
Might as well just roll out the REDACTED tag and erase it all from the forums. I'm sure that will work.
Absolute riots.
This made me laugh out loud.
obscene gesture, vulcan neck pinch, claps, cheers
The sub model MMO industry yes.
The F2P model MMO I'm not so sure. Marvel Heroes has a significantly different approach that so far I really dig.
the biggest dread is t-6 ships this alone will relagate all of our t-5s useless though the devs say no
its common sense to relise the t-6 will have many advantages over anything else and if the common non spending player is not awarded a freebie t-6 at level 60 then this whole thing is going to blow up in thier faces.
The thing is once the t-6s hit the scene of ESTFs / PvP etc etc
anyone in a T-5 is going to be left in their wake t-5s wont be able to compete with a more superior ship no matter what the devs say.
I say no to T-6 ships i wouldve went with new space and ground gear at t-6 not new ships this to me stinks of disaster in the making.
Not saying DOOM just saying if they dont get this right the first time its going to severley hurt the game in a whole Imho.
I don't even have an excelsior. And yet I definitely fear what the playerbase of zealous excelsior fanatics will do if ...
- T6 marginalizes the ship in a meaningful way
- Hawk's projected space combat changes nerfs or marginalizes A2B in a meaningful way.
You all think the venom and toxicity is high right now? You haven't even seen what can happen on here when Cryptic makes a big bonehead move.