Yes real naval tradition and terminology is mixed all throughout Star Trek, however, it doesn't extend very far before you get completely off the map. So trying to compose fleets/task forces the way that real navies do is not only useless but idiotic and a waste. Supplies. fuel, personnel,... none of these things is handled or transferred in the Trek universe the way it is in the real world.
Exactly this. Don't try to graft real-world naval tactics and organization onto a sci-fi TV series whose writers never paid that stuff any mind.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
The boy who sells hot-dogs across the street has an aunt whose ex. once dated a woman that is now the wife of one of the errand boys on the set of Star Trek III: The Search for Spock.
you guys are funny, screaming "don't use naval talk in star trek!" when the maker of Star Trek thought of it in sailing terms. Honestly, who puts the bridge of a space ship at the top, in a very exposed position?
The galaxy class was called a battleship, by Picard in Yesterday's enterprise. At this time, the galaxy was the most powerful ship the Federation had, so logic indicates that's why it was assigned 'battleship' title. When the excel was introduced, it was the most powerful ship.
The Defiant was called a battleship by Dukat when Tom Riker went on that shooting rampage with the Defiant.
Honestly, Star Trek needs to lay down the rules clearly for what is a battleship, cruiser and destroyer. Because they always are changing it.
In naval concept, a battleship meets a certain tonnage and carries a certain amount of weapons, but a destroyer today is more powerful than a battleship of ww2.
To be honest, I blame the writers for all these confusions.
Honestly, Star Trek needs to lay down the rules clearly for what is a battleship, cruiser and destroyer. Because they always are changing it...To be honest, I blame the writers for all these confusions.
Bingo.
But that doesn't give any of us the license to just make things up and present it as fact. :P
Fan theories are fine (I love 'em), but they need to be clearly labelled as fan theories.
And yes, Star Trek was largely inspired by the U.S. Navy. But that doesn't mean that everything in Starfleet needs to be identical to the USN. If it wasn't seen on the screen, it's all conjecture.
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
Yup, so much more difficult to type Connie Refit. /sarcasm
Which episode or movie did they use the term "Connie" instead of "Constitution"? I don't seem to recall that, which would lead someone to believe that's shorthand as well, and it's certainly not the proper term either, as even if it's used in-canon it's still shorthand used in-canon. So I guess what I'm saying here is if you're gonna wizz and moan about something you probably shouldn't do it yourself as hypocrisy is a lousy trait to flaunt...
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
At the time of her launch the Excelsior was the most heavily armed vessel and was the largest displacement Starship Starfleet had in its ranks. Exceptionally the larger Monitor type ships which were not classified as Starships, but were built for planetary or system defense or Space Control ships which are carrier type vessels with Fighters and Fast Patrol ship launch bays and racks which served as Task Force Command vessels usually are non-withstanding.
Naval architecture which for the most part directly translates into Trek would suggest that this would make the Excelsior akin to the Battleship type, but afaik this was never mentioned on the screen.
Other games have noted that she is a Battleship and it is noted on Memory Beta as such (not canon).
The Defiant can possibly be called a Pocket Battleship due to the fact she was so heavily gunned, but did not have the staying power of a true ship of the line as her firepower was near to a much larger warship class. It's vague whether her firepower was comparable to a true Battleship.
To touch on why Klingons and Cardassians call certain ships "Warships" I can only surmise that when you are a hammer everything looks like a nail
At the time of her launch the Excelsior was the most heavily armed vessel and was the largest displacement Starship Starfleet had in its ranks. Exceptionally the larger Monitor type ships which were not classified as Starships, but were built for planetary or system defense or Space Control ships which are carrier type vessels with Fighters and Fast Patrol ship launch bays and racks which served as Task Force Command vessels usually are non-withstanding.
Naval architecture which for the most part directly translates into Trek would suggest that this would make the Excelsior akin to the Battleship type, but afaik this was never mentioned on the screen.
Other games have noted that she is a Battleship and it is noted on Memory Beta as such (not canon).
The Defiant can possibly be called a Pocket Battleship due to the fact she was so heavily gunned, but did not have the staying power of a true ship of the line as her firepower was near to a much larger warship class. It's vague whether her firepower was comparable to a true Battleship.
To touch on why Klingons and Cardassians call certain ships "Warships" I can only surmise that when you are a hammer everything looks like a nail
Anyway there's me playing a little bit of Devi...OP's advocate.
If you want to provide valid canon facts, you should use Memory-alpha as reference.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
To be fair I don't think the Federation would ever have called something a battleship since it goes against the idea that Starfleet were explorers first and foremost. Also with the exception of the Defiant they did not build any ship with the sole purpose of combat. Even the Excelsior was used for scientific research. I vaguely remember an episode where it was mentioned that they were scanning nebulae or something.
Realistically they would build their ships as multimission capable with enough offense/defense they could fit so they stayed a match against any known factions ships.
If the cruiser can easily be put together, it's possible to do it quickly.
I would estimate about a hundred of them were built in the time span from its production to now. Estimating at least 1 a year.
Per spacedock maybe one a year. Mars and Earth have over a dozen each on both worlds. The Federation may have a shipyard over every world that has a high enough industrial capacity, probably numbering in the hundreds. But they wouldn't all be making the same ship at the same time, you do need freighters, runabouts and other support ships to keep the fleet running.
you guys are funny, screaming "don't use naval talk in star trek!" when the maker of Star Trek thought of it in sailing terms. Honestly, who puts the bridge of a space ship at the top, in a very exposed position?
No. We're saying don't try to take the metaphor too far. A real world Naval Fleet operates much differently and requires much different composition than a "true" Space Fleet with transporters, replicators and faster than light drive would.
The galaxy class was called a battleship, by Picard in Yesterday's enterprise. At this time, the galaxy was the most powerful ship the Federation had, so logic indicates that's why it was assigned 'battleship' title. When the excel was introduced, it was the most powerful ship.
Citing one appellation in one episode, an alternate reality one at that, does NOT make it fact. In that alternate reality, every Federation ship was a Battleship because they were in a war that shouldn't exist. In EVERY other reality, the Galaxy class and similar ships were EXPLORATION ships, NOT battleships.
The Defiant was called a battleship by Dukat when Tom Riker went on that shooting rampage with the Defiant.
What alien races may or may not call something is totally irrelevant as by definition they have a totally different culture/ideology. Klingons are warriors so to them, everything is a battle cruiser. The Cardassians are conquerors, so to them everything is geared towards that end.
In naval concept, a battleship meets a certain tonnage and carries a certain amount of weapons, but a destroyer today is more powerful than a battleship of ww2.
True, but again, such restrictions/requirements DO NOT apply to a SPACE Fleet, equipped with transporters, replicators and faster than light drives. Almost ANY Federation ship, even a Miranda, would grossly outweigh in raw tonnage not to mention sheer size, even the largest sea going Naval vessel. So that classification comparison is totally and completly moot.
To be honest, I blame the writers for all these confusions.
Actually, producers, then writers but yes, the staff of the shows are to blame. Mainly because they were trying to create and produce entertaining TV, not a religion or a culture with strict inviolable rules.
"Go play with your DPS in the corner, I don't care how big it is." ~ Me "There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
you guys are funny, screaming "don't use naval talk in star trek!" when the maker of Star Trek thought of it in sailing terms. Honestly, who puts the bridge of a space ship at the top, in a very exposed position?
The galaxy class was called a battleship, by Picard in Yesterday's enterprise. At this time, the galaxy was the most powerful ship the Federation had, so logic indicates that's why it was assigned 'battleship' title. When the excel was introduced, it was the most powerful ship.
Alternate timeline. At that point the Federation was at war with the Klingons so naturally their flagship would be considered a battleship instead of an explorer class heavy cruiser in the "prime" timeline.
In the prime universe the Sovereign class starship is a heavy cruiser. However, in the mirror universe that the Terran Empire refers to the Sovereign class starship as a battleship. I recall that from the Mirror Event earlier this year.
The Defiant was called a battleship by Dukat when Tom Riker went on that shooting rampage with the Defiant.
Just out of curiosity, do you know the name of that episode?
Honestly, Star Trek needs to lay down the rules clearly for what is a battleship, cruiser and destroyer. Because they always are changing it.
In naval concept, a battleship meets a certain tonnage and carries a certain amount of weapons, but a destroyer today is more powerful than a battleship of ww2.
It depends on the perspective.
In the prime universe and the prime time line Starfleet officially do not have any battleships or warships (referring to the Defiant being officially classified as an escort) because they are not at war. From the mirror universe perspective any heavily arm starship seems to be called a battleship like the Sovereign and Odyssey. The Terran Empire is aggressive and they consider themselves conquerors rather than explorers. As for the Klingons... as mentioned above, they have traditionally considered federation heavy cruisers as battle cruisers because that is what they would be call in their own society.
As for the naval concept of "battleship", that also depends on your point of view...
The Royal Navy officially called the HMS Hood a battlecruiser. However, to other people like Antony Preston (an English naval historian) they consider the HMS Hood to be a fast battleship. In reality, by the time WW II started, the HMS Hood was nothing more than a glass cannon. When initially launched in 1918 it was certainly considered a formidable naval vessel. However, as time progressed more powerful battleships (or battlecruisers) have been launched by other navy. The HMS Hood was supposed to go in for a major refit in 1938 or 1939, but that was prior to WW II.
Due to the restrictions imposed by the Treaty of Versailles, Germany could not deploy warships that displaced more than 10,000 long tons. They built the Deutschland class Panzerschiffe or "armored ships" which comprised the ships Deutschland, Admiral Scheer, and Admiral Graf Spee. These cruisers actually violated the treaty since the displacement ranged between 10,600 and 12,340 long ton, but that's besides the point. Using advanced technology for their times, Germany was able to create lighter ships which allowed the navy to install much heavier armaments for ships of their size. They all had six 11" guns which would normally be installed on battleships. Due to this fact the Royal Navy referred to them as "Pocket Battleships".
A current generation Guided Missile Destroyer (DDG) like the US Navy Arleigh Burke-class destroyer is certainly a formidable naval combat vessel due to it's ability to launch Harpoon anti-ship missiles. Other amarments inlcudes a single 5"/54 gun on the forward deck that is integrated into the AEGIS weapon system, and the Phalanx Close-in Weapon System for self-defense. However, do not forget that just like in STO, old ships have been refitted for more modern times.
A prime example would be the Iowa-class battleship, the U.S.S. Missouri. It's basic armaments included nine 16" guns along with twenty 5" guns and miscellaneous anti-aircraft gun emplacements. In the mid 1980's the U.S.S. Missouri underwent a massive overhaul which saw the installation of four MK 141 quad cell missile launchers, eight Armored Box Launchers for Tomahawk cruise missiles, and four Phalanx CIWS guns. In addition, the ship was fitted with the latest electronics and combat control systems. These new system both increased the U.S.S. Missouri's firepower and defensive capabilities. Far outstripping the Arleigh Burke-class destroyer's firepower.
To be fair I don't think the Federation would ever have called something a battleship since it goes against the idea that Starfleet were explorers first and foremost. Also with the exception of the Defiant they did not build any ship with the sole purpose of combat. Even the Excelsior was used for scientific research. I vaguely remember an episode where it was mentioned that they were scanning nebulae or something.
Realistically they would build their ships as multimission capable with enough offense/defense they could fit so they stayed a match against any known factions ships.
I have a hard time believing Starfleet designs their ships as "explorers first and foremost" when their ships throughout the history of the TV series and movies, fall into all kinds of danger by aliens, aggressive Klingons, Romulans, entities. Not to mention the MANY wars the Federation has found itself in.
Sure, it's not expected to make something like an Oberth-class have the firepower of a full fledged Cruiser, but Starfleet does not leave their designs hanging like that.
The Federation may like to believe that everyone will gather around the campfire to sing cumbayah and roast some marshmallows over the fire and tell nice little stories about their latest adventures.
But Starfleet doesn't believe that. They may not like putting the titles "Battleship" or "Battlecruiser" on their ships in the shows and movies, but make no mistake, Starfleet's designs can take care of themselves. The Federation gov't may believe in lofty ideals and rhetoric, but Starfleet is the one that does the fighting and dying. And conflict comes for them when oftenly unannounced and in varying scales. It's utterly foolish to believe that Starfleet builds their ships to act foremost as glorified diplomat shuttles or Dexter's Laboratory.
They are warships, first and above all things, designed to defend the Federation when trouble comes looking. And it usually does one way or another.
I have a hard time believing Starfleet designs their ships as "explorers first and foremost" when their ships throughout the history of the TV series and movies, fall into all kinds of danger by aliens, aggressive Klingons, Romulans, entities. Not to mention the MANY wars the Federation has found itself in.
Sure, it's not expected to make something like an Oberth-class have the firepower of a full fledged Cruiser, but Starfleet does not leave their designs hanging like that.
The Federation may like to believe that everyone will gather around the campfire to sing cumbayah and roast some marshmallows over the fire and tell nice little stories about their latest adventures.
But Starfleet doesn't believe that. They may not like putting the titles "Battleship" or "Battlecruiser" on their ships in the shows and movies, but make no mistake, Starfleet's designs can take care of themselves. The Federation gov't may believe in lofty ideals and rhetoric, but Starfleet is the one that does the fighting and dying. And conflict comes for them when oftenly unannounced and in varying scales. It's utterly foolish to believe that Starfleet builds their ships to act foremost as glorified diplomat shuttles or Dexter's Laboratory.
They are warships, first and above all things, designed to defend the Federation when trouble comes looking. And it usually does one way or another.
In my mine Starfleet has had 3 ages. 1st age besides ships design for a specific purpose like Oberth they are evenly design for peace and war. Connie and Excel are examples. Have enough power to be a force to reckon with but can still do much in peace time. By Early TNG they had moved into the 2nd age, they had peace with their major rivals so their mindset and designs leaned more in peace than war. They can still dish out but it was nolonger a 50/50 split. But with the Borg and the growing threat of the dominion plus the fact that in 10 years over half of the 1st generation Galaxys have been destroyed they moved into the 3rd age. In the 3rd age ship desgins were way more combat oriented, multiple phaser arrays, multiple torp launchers, designs that were sleeker and more manuverable. However most still can function well in peace.
There have been hundreds of threads about this over the years, i find it unbeliveable that this matter is being discussed over and over again. This i s really getting tiresome TBH.
Allright, ships in "real" trek are all more or less what STO would call "cruisers".
Even the Defiant was engineering heavy enough to fall under this classification.
90% of all Starfleet designs where build to be multi mission ships.
But unlike many ppl. may think this doesn NOT exclude combat scenarios.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
There have been hundreds of threads about this over the years, i find it unbeliveable that this matter is being discussed over and over again. This i s really getting tiresome TBH.
Allright, ships in "real" trek are all more or less what STO would call "cruisers".
Even the Defiant was engineering heavy enough to fall under this classification.
90% of all Starfleet designs where build to be multi mission ships.
But unlike many ppl. may think this doesn NOT exclude combat scenarios.
Pretty much this. I mean take the Galaxy Class. Yeah built to do many things, Exploration, Humanitarian missions and when the need called for it, fighting. Galaxies could go toe to toe with the biggest and baddest ships the other factions had and give a good accounting of herself or come out on top.
Yeah Starfleet leaned towards exploration, but when the call came, those ships could stand for war and fight that war well.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
I have a hard time believing Starfleet designs their ships as "explorers first and foremost" when their ships throughout the history of the TV series and movies, fall into all kinds of danger by aliens, aggressive Klingons, Romulans, entities. Not to mention the MANY wars the Federation has found itself in.
Sure, it's not expected to make something like an Oberth-class have the firepower of a full fledged Cruiser, but Starfleet does not leave their designs hanging like that.
The Federation may like to believe that everyone will gather around the campfire to sing cumbayah and roast some marshmallows over the fire and tell nice little stories about their latest adventures.
But Starfleet doesn't believe that. They may not like putting the titles "Battleship" or "Battlecruiser" on their ships in the shows and movies, but make no mistake, Starfleet's designs can take care of themselves. The Federation gov't may believe in lofty ideals and rhetoric, but Starfleet is the one that does the fighting and dying. And conflict comes for them when oftenly unannounced and in varying scales. It's utterly foolish to believe that Starfleet builds their ships to act foremost as glorified diplomat shuttles or Dexter's Laboratory.
They are warships, first and above all things, designed to defend the Federation when trouble comes looking. And it usually does one way or another.
You realize that you basically agreed with me? I didn't say that Starfleet designed their ships to be explorers first but that they as an organization consider themselves as more explorers than soldiers. To that end they wouldn't classify one of their ships as a battleship regardless of its capabilities in that regard. In fact all I said is that they design their ships as multi mission capable part of that mission being defense of the federation and they were well armed and very capable in that role.
FWIW I agree with you that Starfleet might have high ideals but are in the end realists and would not design any ship without the capability of defending itself from threats its aware of.
"Explorers first, Battle second" is a nonsensical assumption. Like others said, Starfleet vessels are always designed with versatility in mind and since defense, in varying degrees, is the duty of every Starfleet vessel and especially their Explorers are meant to face the unknown dangers of deep space, every ship will always be fitted with the best tactical systems available to it. But the mindset behind Starfleet is not that of a military, the ships are dubbed Cruisers and Explorers and most importantly, Starfleet is not supposed to abuse the power they have. It doesn't matter how grimdark our real or other fictional worlds are, this is what Star Trek tried to portray and just because that's not "super badass American hero" enough for some people doesn't mean that this is supposed to change.
Well, except Cryptic can do whatever their want to their game and obviously they cater to exactly that demographic that wants edgy grimdark military shootkill hero ships.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Explorers are always heavily armed... because you've got no idea what you're going to encounter.
IMO Enterprise the series said it all... the ship set off with one unfitted Phase Cannon. Okay so it was a little rushed, but humanity quickly realised that there was a lot of mean stuff out there in the universe and the defensive capabilities were rapidly stepped up.
By TOS, the Connie's were capable of handling themselves, a pattern seen throughout TNG and Voyager - Voyager repeatedly went toe to toe with the borg.
There were plenty of species which were capable of defeating SF ships, and plenty which weren't. Overall, though, the ships were clearly armed to a fairly high level... because there's always a chance of running into something unexpected and the Federation has been in some kind of conflict, or had one looming, for most of it's time.
Klingon Wars, Romulan Wars, the Romulan Neutral Zone, Cardassian War, Cardassian Neutral Zone, Dominion War, Borg Invasion... there's always been plenty of stuff to fight, even taking out the one-off diplomatic or first contact style conflicts.
As far as I can tell from Canon, almost all starfleet ships (apart from freighters) are capable of combat, science missions (we see the ostensibly-war-oriented Defiant doing a number of science etc mimssions), diplomacy, humanitarian missions etc... it's just that some are designed more specifically towards one task than others.
Comments
About as difficult as being a jerk on the internet apparently.
Exactly this. Don't try to graft real-world naval tactics and organization onto a sci-fi TV series whose writers never paid that stuff any mind.
Still waiting for you to produce a shred of evidence* that supports this.
*Acceptable evidence includes any dialogue or on-screen text from an actual Star Trek episode or film.
The boy who sells hot-dogs across the street has an aunt whose ex. once dated a woman that is now the wife of one of the errand boys on the set of Star Trek III: The Search for Spock.
The galaxy class was called a battleship, by Picard in Yesterday's enterprise. At this time, the galaxy was the most powerful ship the Federation had, so logic indicates that's why it was assigned 'battleship' title. When the excel was introduced, it was the most powerful ship.
The Defiant was called a battleship by Dukat when Tom Riker went on that shooting rampage with the Defiant.
Honestly, Star Trek needs to lay down the rules clearly for what is a battleship, cruiser and destroyer. Because they always are changing it.
In naval concept, a battleship meets a certain tonnage and carries a certain amount of weapons, but a destroyer today is more powerful than a battleship of ww2.
To be honest, I blame the writers for all these confusions.
Bingo.
But that doesn't give any of us the license to just make things up and present it as fact. :P
Fan theories are fine (I love 'em), but they need to be clearly labelled as fan theories.
And yes, Star Trek was largely inspired by the U.S. Navy. But that doesn't mean that everything in Starfleet needs to be identical to the USN. If it wasn't seen on the screen, it's all conjecture.
They should had written a bible for speed, ship class and stuff like that
Which episode or movie did they use the term "Connie" instead of "Constitution"? I don't seem to recall that, which would lead someone to believe that's shorthand as well, and it's certainly not the proper term either, as even if it's used in-canon it's still shorthand used in-canon. So I guess what I'm saying here is if you're gonna wizz and moan about something you probably shouldn't do it yourself as hypocrisy is a lousy trait to flaunt...
As did Sisko, who helped design the damn thing.
With respect, your original post came across not so much as "discussion," as "stating facts."
To be fair, it was closed captioned.
Naval architecture which for the most part directly translates into Trek would suggest that this would make the Excelsior akin to the Battleship type, but afaik this was never mentioned on the screen.
Other games have noted that she is a Battleship and it is noted on Memory Beta as such (not canon).
The Defiant can possibly be called a Pocket Battleship due to the fact she was so heavily gunned, but did not have the staying power of a true ship of the line as her firepower was near to a much larger warship class. It's vague whether her firepower was comparable to a true Battleship.
To touch on why Klingons and Cardassians call certain ships "Warships" I can only surmise that when you are a hammer everything looks like a nail
FWIW: http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Excelsior_class
Anyway there's me playing a little bit of Devi...OP's advocate.
Realistically they would build their ships as multimission capable with enough offense/defense they could fit so they stayed a match against any known factions ships.
Per spacedock maybe one a year. Mars and Earth have over a dozen each on both worlds. The Federation may have a shipyard over every world that has a high enough industrial capacity, probably numbering in the hundreds. But they wouldn't all be making the same ship at the same time, you do need freighters, runabouts and other support ships to keep the fleet running.
No. We're saying don't try to take the metaphor too far. A real world Naval Fleet operates much differently and requires much different composition than a "true" Space Fleet with transporters, replicators and faster than light drive would.
Citing one appellation in one episode, an alternate reality one at that, does NOT make it fact. In that alternate reality, every Federation ship was a Battleship because they were in a war that shouldn't exist. In EVERY other reality, the Galaxy class and similar ships were EXPLORATION ships, NOT battleships.
What alien races may or may not call something is totally irrelevant as by definition they have a totally different culture/ideology. Klingons are warriors so to them, everything is a battle cruiser. The Cardassians are conquerors, so to them everything is geared towards that end.
True, but if we all hold our breath waiting for it, all we'll have is a bunch of asphyxiated fans.
True, but again, such restrictions/requirements DO NOT apply to a SPACE Fleet, equipped with transporters, replicators and faster than light drives. Almost ANY Federation ship, even a Miranda, would grossly outweigh in raw tonnage not to mention sheer size, even the largest sea going Naval vessel. So that classification comparison is totally and completly moot.
Actually, producers, then writers but yes, the staff of the shows are to blame. Mainly because they were trying to create and produce entertaining TV, not a religion or a culture with strict inviolable rules.
"There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
Alternate timeline. At that point the Federation was at war with the Klingons so naturally their flagship would be considered a battleship instead of an explorer class heavy cruiser in the "prime" timeline.
In the prime universe the Sovereign class starship is a heavy cruiser. However, in the mirror universe that the Terran Empire refers to the Sovereign class starship as a battleship. I recall that from the Mirror Event earlier this year.
Just out of curiosity, do you know the name of that episode?
It depends on the perspective.
In the prime universe and the prime time line Starfleet officially do not have any battleships or warships (referring to the Defiant being officially classified as an escort) because they are not at war. From the mirror universe perspective any heavily arm starship seems to be called a battleship like the Sovereign and Odyssey. The Terran Empire is aggressive and they consider themselves conquerors rather than explorers. As for the Klingons... as mentioned above, they have traditionally considered federation heavy cruisers as battle cruisers because that is what they would be call in their own society.
As for the naval concept of "battleship", that also depends on your point of view...
The Royal Navy officially called the HMS Hood a battlecruiser. However, to other people like Antony Preston (an English naval historian) they consider the HMS Hood to be a fast battleship. In reality, by the time WW II started, the HMS Hood was nothing more than a glass cannon. When initially launched in 1918 it was certainly considered a formidable naval vessel. However, as time progressed more powerful battleships (or battlecruisers) have been launched by other navy. The HMS Hood was supposed to go in for a major refit in 1938 or 1939, but that was prior to WW II.
Due to the restrictions imposed by the Treaty of Versailles, Germany could not deploy warships that displaced more than 10,000 long tons. They built the Deutschland class Panzerschiffe or "armored ships" which comprised the ships Deutschland, Admiral Scheer, and Admiral Graf Spee. These cruisers actually violated the treaty since the displacement ranged between 10,600 and 12,340 long ton, but that's besides the point. Using advanced technology for their times, Germany was able to create lighter ships which allowed the navy to install much heavier armaments for ships of their size. They all had six 11" guns which would normally be installed on battleships. Due to this fact the Royal Navy referred to them as "Pocket Battleships".
A current generation Guided Missile Destroyer (DDG) like the US Navy Arleigh Burke-class destroyer is certainly a formidable naval combat vessel due to it's ability to launch Harpoon anti-ship missiles. Other amarments inlcudes a single 5"/54 gun on the forward deck that is integrated into the AEGIS weapon system, and the Phalanx Close-in Weapon System for self-defense. However, do not forget that just like in STO, old ships have been refitted for more modern times.
A prime example would be the Iowa-class battleship, the U.S.S. Missouri. It's basic armaments included nine 16" guns along with twenty 5" guns and miscellaneous anti-aircraft gun emplacements. In the mid 1980's the U.S.S. Missouri underwent a massive overhaul which saw the installation of four MK 141 quad cell missile launchers, eight Armored Box Launchers for Tomahawk cruise missiles, and four Phalanx CIWS guns. In addition, the ship was fitted with the latest electronics and combat control systems. These new system both increased the U.S.S. Missouri's firepower and defensive capabilities. Far outstripping the Arleigh Burke-class destroyer's firepower.
I have a hard time believing Starfleet designs their ships as "explorers first and foremost" when their ships throughout the history of the TV series and movies, fall into all kinds of danger by aliens, aggressive Klingons, Romulans, entities. Not to mention the MANY wars the Federation has found itself in.
Sure, it's not expected to make something like an Oberth-class have the firepower of a full fledged Cruiser, but Starfleet does not leave their designs hanging like that.
The Federation may like to believe that everyone will gather around the campfire to sing cumbayah and roast some marshmallows over the fire and tell nice little stories about their latest adventures.
But Starfleet doesn't believe that. They may not like putting the titles "Battleship" or "Battlecruiser" on their ships in the shows and movies, but make no mistake, Starfleet's designs can take care of themselves. The Federation gov't may believe in lofty ideals and rhetoric, but Starfleet is the one that does the fighting and dying. And conflict comes for them when oftenly unannounced and in varying scales. It's utterly foolish to believe that Starfleet builds their ships to act foremost as glorified diplomat shuttles or Dexter's Laboratory.
They are warships, first and above all things, designed to defend the Federation when trouble comes looking. And it usually does one way or another.
In my mine Starfleet has had 3 ages. 1st age besides ships design for a specific purpose like Oberth they are evenly design for peace and war. Connie and Excel are examples. Have enough power to be a force to reckon with but can still do much in peace time. By Early TNG they had moved into the 2nd age, they had peace with their major rivals so their mindset and designs leaned more in peace than war. They can still dish out but it was nolonger a 50/50 split. But with the Borg and the growing threat of the dominion plus the fact that in 10 years over half of the 1st generation Galaxys have been destroyed they moved into the 3rd age. In the 3rd age ship desgins were way more combat oriented, multiple phaser arrays, multiple torp launchers, designs that were sleeker and more manuverable. However most still can function well in peace.
Bear in mind, I've seen closed captioning not follow the script.
Allright, ships in "real" trek are all more or less what STO would call "cruisers".
Even the Defiant was engineering heavy enough to fall under this classification.
90% of all Starfleet designs where build to be multi mission ships.
But unlike many ppl. may think this doesn NOT exclude combat scenarios.
Pretty much this. I mean take the Galaxy Class. Yeah built to do many things, Exploration, Humanitarian missions and when the need called for it, fighting. Galaxies could go toe to toe with the biggest and baddest ships the other factions had and give a good accounting of herself or come out on top.
Yeah Starfleet leaned towards exploration, but when the call came, those ships could stand for war and fight that war well.
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You realize that you basically agreed with me? I didn't say that Starfleet designed their ships to be explorers first but that they as an organization consider themselves as more explorers than soldiers. To that end they wouldn't classify one of their ships as a battleship regardless of its capabilities in that regard. In fact all I said is that they design their ships as multi mission capable part of that mission being defense of the federation and they were well armed and very capable in that role.
FWIW I agree with you that Starfleet might have high ideals but are in the end realists and would not design any ship without the capability of defending itself from threats its aware of.
"Explorers first, Battle second" is a nonsensical assumption. Like others said, Starfleet vessels are always designed with versatility in mind and since defense, in varying degrees, is the duty of every Starfleet vessel and especially their Explorers are meant to face the unknown dangers of deep space, every ship will always be fitted with the best tactical systems available to it. But the mindset behind Starfleet is not that of a military, the ships are dubbed Cruisers and Explorers and most importantly, Starfleet is not supposed to abuse the power they have. It doesn't matter how grimdark our real or other fictional worlds are, this is what Star Trek tried to portray and just because that's not "super badass American hero" enough for some people doesn't mean that this is supposed to change.
Well, except Cryptic can do whatever their want to their game and obviously they cater to exactly that demographic that wants edgy grimdark military shootkill hero ships.
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IMO Enterprise the series said it all... the ship set off with one unfitted Phase Cannon. Okay so it was a little rushed, but humanity quickly realised that there was a lot of mean stuff out there in the universe and the defensive capabilities were rapidly stepped up.
By TOS, the Connie's were capable of handling themselves, a pattern seen throughout TNG and Voyager - Voyager repeatedly went toe to toe with the borg.
There were plenty of species which were capable of defeating SF ships, and plenty which weren't. Overall, though, the ships were clearly armed to a fairly high level... because there's always a chance of running into something unexpected and the Federation has been in some kind of conflict, or had one looming, for most of it's time.
Klingon Wars, Romulan Wars, the Romulan Neutral Zone, Cardassian War, Cardassian Neutral Zone, Dominion War, Borg Invasion... there's always been plenty of stuff to fight, even taking out the one-off diplomatic or first contact style conflicts.
As far as I can tell from Canon, almost all starfleet ships (apart from freighters) are capable of combat, science missions (we see the ostensibly-war-oriented Defiant doing a number of science etc mimssions), diplomacy, humanitarian missions etc... it's just that some are designed more specifically towards one task than others.