Your argument bogs down to a episode written in 2003 had influence on a episode written in 1989 ... that is absurd, the episode written in 2003 simply had no effect in the 1989 outside how it related to it, this is why writing prequels isnt easy because you cannot simply made up stuff that would later have a inpact.
Borg had retcons, this isnt about me ... this is simply what happened because in Generations they added the Borg because of one line (and how Andorians end up having novels saying they have four genders also based on a line being interpreted in such a way) and how Enterprise used the Borg based on a possibility from "First Contact".
Trek canon is not something you can have it neatly, it often will contradict itself and even more often it will not make sense ... the whole "Predestination Paradox" only makes sense if the NX-01 contact with the Borg would lead to the Federation Contact with the Borg in "Q Who" or "Generations", it did not, its simply clashes on how the Federation could not know about the Borg in "Q Who".
This is something it personally annoys me, that is Star Trek is somehow "Holy Word" that MUST be taken literally as absolute truth, inconsistencies and mistakes do exist and we better off acknowledge them, not treating them as absolutes and part of a master plan.
If you watched Enterprise you know the Borg got away, and sent a transmission to the Delta Quadrant. Which took 200 years to reach the collective. Guess what happened 200 years later? They ran into Picard, which Q put in their paths to prepare the Federation for the incoming Borg attack that they wouldn't have seen coming.
So it makes perfect sense to me.
If you don't like it, then by all means fund your own show and fix what you regard as contradictions.
Fair point. Living Witness was about how history is written by both the victors and losers, and can be skewed to go into truly unsettling territory. I see no reason why we would visit that world now. It has no bearing on the Delta Quadrant at all.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP"
I think because of this another option you could have would be that the planet got bombed back into the dark ages by Civil War. Then they spent the next 700 years rebuilding and that could explain why they have had no interaction with Starfleet. Still a bit of a stretch though.
I believe that was explicitly stated to have happened in the episode.
It also doesn't say 700 of whose years. Given the lack of human contact in that episode, it could very well have been 700 of THEIR years, which are of indeterminate length. There is also the distinct possibility that we simply don't make contact with them over the course of DOOM RISING, because the last we checked on them, they were busy bombing each other into the Stone Age. After so many years of bombing themselves back into the Stone Age, we may simply not bother to encounter them anymore as we do not interact with primitive stone age civilizations.
Let me put this way, you think that they would never enter contact with the Federation in 700 years?
"Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the idiocy that is Voyager ..."
Sure space IS very big but 700 years later they would at least enter in contact with other species that had contact with Voyager in one way or another, the Federation itself lasted at least into the 29th Century, 700 years into the future would mean in the 31st Century, if we take Enterprise into account then Daniels is from that time, if you have the ability to patrol the timeline 2 centuries before then how would they not come with contact with the Vaskan and Kyrian that were a Warp capable, that episode only works if you think that the Federation ignored the Delta Quadrant in 700 years despite having the ability to travel in time for 2 centuries.
Simply put, like many things on Voyager, the plot is stupid and falls apart at the closest inspection ... you would have a point if they made it closer like 100 years but since writers have no concept of time (or space, or size, or distance) they simply put it so far into the future that is absurd to think they would never enter in contact with the Federation or a species that had contact with the Federation in 700 years.
"Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the idiocy that is Voyager ..."
there was indications that the UFP lasted further then the 29th or the 31st. the 25th had the bajorans and klingons merge into the ufp and then im assuming the RR not long after, im guessing something significant enough happened that showed the klingons that merging into the ufp was the wise and correct thing to do.
then the battle of procyon where klingon and federation ships seen fighting the sphere builders and the ent-j, since nothing beyond one room was ever noted on that ship, people assume its larger then it looks.
in the 31st daniels mentions that he was on earth minutes before pulling archer through time to rubble, in his time those same original buildings are still around in his original timeline, there was mention of having a superior officer as well which indicated that some powerful group is still in control.
now back to voyager somehow the emh found its way back to the delta quadrant to these people, im thinking, stolen with his memory wiped upto the voyager portion of its life mostly because it was easier then stealing a human... not that a human would live long. unknown what was the original intent of the emh being stolen but 700 years later and the historians corrected their own history and healed the rifts between the races upon realizing there was more to what was told and one race was a victim in it. doctor spent a while as the medical official in charge then left for home.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
If you watched Enterprise you know the Borg got away, and sent a transmission to the Delta Quadrant.
the transmission got out and phlox learned of it with his partially assimilated state. however the borg didnt get away, at least those remaining from the ent-e timeline, they were destroyed on that fully assimilated earth transporter.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Technically the NX-01 was never a Starfleet ship because the NCC-1701-A was the SECOND ship to bear that name, the previous one and so the FIRST was the NCC-1701.
The issue comes from we having TWO Starfleet, the pre-Federation one because if Voyager was stupid the Enterprise cracked that up to eleven and the Federation Starfleet.
Thats why "technically" NX-01 was never a Federation Starfleet ship under Archer but "technically" it was a United Earth Starfleet ship under Archer.
And all because they wanted to use Starfleet when they knew it could conflict due to the A dedication plate (and D and E ones as well) and thus wanted to have their cake and eat it too.
That doesn't make NX a non-starfleet ship though, just a non-federation ship.
We still live!!!!! Hahahahahahahahaa! We live and we will conquer!!!!! Hahahahahaaha!
-Roach, when asked about Klingon extinction!
the transmission got out and phlox learned of it with his partially assimilated state. however the borg didnt get away, at least those remaining from the ent-e timeline, they were destroyed on that fully assimilated earth transporter.
Well the transmission got out and 200 years later - boom Borg! :P
The facts actually prove quite consistent, once you lay them out the right way. The Federation could have easily known all about the Borg and not told anyone. Probably had it classified even above the Omega protocol.
It's the same principle as why information about a certain topic in any fiction that requires a large something kept secrit, is kept under tight as possible wraps.
Magic in Harry Potter.
The Stargate and alien races that came with it.
All the advanced tech in Eureka.
and so on and so forth.
Everywhere I look, people are screaming about how bad Cryptic is.
What's my position?
That people should know what they're screaming about!
(paraphrased from "The Newsroom)
Star Trek has a lot of these funny things and fallacies
There's even that episode when Dr Bashir is completely clueless about flat head Klingons. One can expect Odo to not know about but a federation doctor? That was downright ignorant of Bashir
We still live!!!!! Hahahahahahahahaa! We live and we will conquer!!!!! Hahahahahaaha!
-Roach, when asked about Klingon extinction!
As for the timeline thing. It could be 30 years later . TIme does move differently on different planets, or move at our speed, but calculated differently. eg their months are actually years. So devide that and you can add 30 years into it.
What does make me laugh is that the emh goes back to the alpha quadrant. And we are flying past him in the droves to go experiment. He goes the long route and we take the shortcut through the spheres.
As for them being together now as a species , only thing i can think of is sending diplomacy guys to their planets. Other than that, stay out of my way as i go beat some kazon butts . And some malons.
As for the borg.. You all no that they where carebears before they got assimilated by vger right
right *lazy eye look*
Whether you think you are right or wrong, either way you are RIGHT.
That doesn't make NX a non-starfleet ship though, just a non-federation ship.
Well, it may have been a Starfleet ship - but not a Starfleet ship of the Starfleet that was part of the Federation. Two organizations, using the same name, but existing under different legal and judicial systems and at different times.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Star Trek has a lot of these funny things and fallacies
There's even that episode when Dr Bashir is completely clueless about flat head Klingons. One can expect Odo to not know about but a federation doctor? That was downright ignorant of Bashir
The flat head Klingons that only existed over eighty years ago in the ST timeline?
That sect of Klingons who cured their flat headedness and grew ridges?
The same Klingons the fandom dubbed the mutant Klingons because that sect was small in number?
Those Klingons?
Bashir may be an intellectual, but he's not on the same level of useless fact knowing as the average Trek fan is. He's a doctor. He has more important things to learn like how Pakled hearts can been transferred safely or where a Borg implants their nanites to assimilate species the quickest.
What are we doing?
Sitting on the internet, arguing with strangers.
/shrug
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP"
best i can think of that links into the game would be abduction of the emh from earth or a conference somewhere in the alpha quadrant and evidence points around but eventually no leads were found or that someone told them to stop searching as it was meant to be this way.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Starfleet could have banned travel to their planetary system because their species was deemed too xenophobic for additional contact. I have to rewatch the epsiode but did the species have warp drive? Remember Janeway was all alone in the Delta Quadrant, every contact was a first contact and rules were bent. Starfleet normally makes contact with those species that have achieved warp drive and whose society has reached an appropriate maturity.
Clearly the species has an issue if it is 700 years later and they are obsessed over the same incident with contact. We can say a general order was issued to give them space and not attempt contact until they are ready.
Something I've wondered about since the announcement of all the Delta Quadrant species that are supposed to be showing up in Delta Rising. They're spread out across a huge swath of the Delta Quadrant, with Borg Space laying smack dab in the middle of it all. On the farther side of Borg Space towards the Alpha Quadrant we have the world that is home to the Vaskan and Kyrian species that was the centerpiece for the Voyager episode 'Living Witness' and takes place, as they say it, '700 years after the Voyager Encounter'. They've gotten the historical facts wrong and whatnot, having Voyager portrayed as a practically invulnerable warship with a ruthless crew, but the important factoid is that they have no idea what happened to Voyager afterward and have obviously not had contact with Starfleet in the meantime.
Jump forward to 2410 in STO, approximately 30 odd years later, and the Alpha Quadrant powers are about to swarm into the Delta Quadrant and meet all these species which have this one Vaskan/Kyrian planet in the middle of them all. How can such an inconsistency be explained? I can think of two possible explanations. One, the KDF are the ones to rediscover this world and this particular captain is only too happy to back up the false assumptions the Kyrians have about Voyager. Either that, or this particular captain has the mistaken impression that this was, in fact, a visit from the Voyager of the Mirror Universe. This one strains credibility a bit, so that leaves the second possible explanation.
The years of this Vaskan/Kyrian planet are much shorter than those of Earth and those were the chronological measurements they were in fact referring to throughout that episode. So that, say, 700 of their years are actually the 30 odd years that have actually taken place in the STO timeline. For some reason the Doctor's universal translation subroutine took the centuries part at face value to mean Earth centuries rather than Vaskan/Kyrian ones. This one also has a lot of leaps to make it credible, so who knows? Maybe they'll just ignore the whole issue.
The most logical explanation is that the translation matrix malfunctioned, misinterpreting their concept of centuries as our human centuries. As you said, their years were probably much shorter so 700 of their years equal 30 of ours.
Otherwise, we just have to assume the story writers were being fools in contradicting Q's prediction.
now back to voyager somehow the emh found its way back to the delta quadrant to these people, im thinking, stolen with his memory wiped upto the voyager portion of its life mostly because it was easier then stealing a human... not that a human would live long. unknown what was the original intent of the emh being stolen but 700 years later and the historians corrected their own history and healed the rifts between the races upon realizing there was more to what was told and one race was a victim in it. doctor spent a while as the medical official in charge then left for home.
No, it's clearly explained in the episode that the EMH in question is not the original EMH that made it back to the Alpha Quadrant, but a backup* that was stolen from Voyager at some point.
How do we even know know which Voyager was the focus of Living Witness. For all we know, and you can't definitively say since they never specified which was which during that season, it was The Silver Blood Voyager which was the star of Living Witness. Meaning they took a radically different course and the Living Witness planet was nowhere near the OG Voyager's course. (You know they weren't because OG Voyager wasn't constantly running into Aliens going, "Hey we just met you.")
How can JJ have messed up something as bloody obvious as the Borg....
Hold on, continuity issues and a general lack of canon isn't new in ST...
Well who'd have thunk it?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I always thought the Borg Transwarp Coil they pulled from the Sphere's wreckage had a connection to the Excelsior's experimental Transwarp drive.
It's generally thought that the Excelsior 'transwarp' drive was the start of the new TNG warp scale.
'Sides the Borg travel in Transwarp Conduits, not just at transwarp.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Comments
WTF does this have anything to do with what I said?
What's absurd is you suggesting that.
If you watched Enterprise you know the Borg got away, and sent a transmission to the Delta Quadrant. Which took 200 years to reach the collective. Guess what happened 200 years later? They ran into Picard, which Q put in their paths to prepare the Federation for the incoming Borg attack that they wouldn't have seen coming.
So it makes perfect sense to me.
If you don't like it, then by all means fund your own show and fix what you regard as contradictions.
Fair point. Living Witness was about how history is written by both the victors and losers, and can be skewed to go into truly unsettling territory. I see no reason why we would visit that world now. It has no bearing on the Delta Quadrant at all.
-Leonard Nimoy, RIP
It also doesn't say 700 of whose years. Given the lack of human contact in that episode, it could very well have been 700 of THEIR years, which are of indeterminate length. There is also the distinct possibility that we simply don't make contact with them over the course of DOOM RISING, because the last we checked on them, they were busy bombing each other into the Stone Age. After so many years of bombing themselves back into the Stone Age, we may simply not bother to encounter them anymore as we do not interact with primitive stone age civilizations.
there was indications that the UFP lasted further then the 29th or the 31st. the 25th had the bajorans and klingons merge into the ufp and then im assuming the RR not long after, im guessing something significant enough happened that showed the klingons that merging into the ufp was the wise and correct thing to do.
then the battle of procyon where klingon and federation ships seen fighting the sphere builders and the ent-j, since nothing beyond one room was ever noted on that ship, people assume its larger then it looks.
in the 31st daniels mentions that he was on earth minutes before pulling archer through time to rubble, in his time those same original buildings are still around in his original timeline, there was mention of having a superior officer as well which indicated that some powerful group is still in control.
now back to voyager somehow the emh found its way back to the delta quadrant to these people, im thinking, stolen with his memory wiped upto the voyager portion of its life mostly because it was easier then stealing a human... not that a human would live long. unknown what was the original intent of the emh being stolen but 700 years later and the historians corrected their own history and healed the rifts between the races upon realizing there was more to what was told and one race was a victim in it. doctor spent a while as the medical official in charge then left for home.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
the transmission got out and phlox learned of it with his partially assimilated state. however the borg didnt get away, at least those remaining from the ent-e timeline, they were destroyed on that fully assimilated earth transporter.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
That doesn't make NX a non-starfleet ship though, just a non-federation ship.
We still live!!!!! Hahahahahahahahaa! We live and we will conquer!!!!! Hahahahahaaha!
-Roach, when asked about Klingon extinction!
Well the transmission got out and 200 years later - boom Borg! :P
It's the same principle as why information about a certain topic in any fiction that requires a large something kept secrit, is kept under tight as possible wraps.
Magic in Harry Potter.
The Stargate and alien races that came with it.
All the advanced tech in Eureka.
and so on and so forth.
What's my position?
That people should know what they're screaming about!
(paraphrased from "The Newsroom)
There's even that episode when Dr Bashir is completely clueless about flat head Klingons. One can expect Odo to not know about but a federation doctor? That was downright ignorant of Bashir
We still live!!!!! Hahahahahahahahaa! We live and we will conquer!!!!! Hahahahahaaha!
-Roach, when asked about Klingon extinction!
What does make me laugh is that the emh goes back to the alpha quadrant. And we are flying past him in the droves to go experiment. He goes the long route and we take the shortcut through the spheres.
As for them being together now as a species , only thing i can think of is sending diplomacy guys to their planets. Other than that, stay out of my way as i go beat some kazon butts . And some malons.
As for the borg.. You all no that they where carebears before they got assimilated by vger right
right *lazy eye look*
We are cute and cuddly, all resistance to our cuteness is futile.
Well, it may have been a Starfleet ship - but not a Starfleet ship of the Starfleet that was part of the Federation. Two organizations, using the same name, but existing under different legal and judicial systems and at different times.
The flat head Klingons that only existed over eighty years ago in the ST timeline?
That sect of Klingons who cured their flat headedness and grew ridges?
The same Klingons the fandom dubbed the mutant Klingons because that sect was small in number?
Those Klingons?
Bashir may be an intellectual, but he's not on the same level of useless fact knowing as the average Trek fan is. He's a doctor. He has more important things to learn like how Pakled hearts can been transferred safely or where a Borg implants their nanites to assimilate species the quickest.
What are we doing?
Sitting on the internet, arguing with strangers.
/shrug
-Leonard Nimoy, RIP
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Clearly the species has an issue if it is 700 years later and they are obsessed over the same incident with contact. We can say a general order was issued to give them space and not attempt contact until they are ready.
The most logical explanation is that the translation matrix malfunctioned, misinterpreting their concept of centuries as our human centuries. As you said, their years were probably much shorter so 700 of their years equal 30 of ours.
Otherwise, we just have to assume the story writers were being fools in contradicting Q's prediction.
No, it's clearly explained in the episode that the EMH in question is not the original EMH that made it back to the Alpha Quadrant, but a backup* that was stolen from Voyager at some point.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/EMH_backup_module
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Living_Witness_%28episode%29
*Which creates a whole slew of new problems regarding the Doctor, but none of them relevant to this discussion.
Boom! Minds blown.
Hold on, continuity issues and a general lack of canon isn't new in ST...
Well who'd have thunk it?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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It's generally thought that the Excelsior 'transwarp' drive was the start of the new TNG warp scale.
'Sides the Borg travel in Transwarp Conduits, not just at transwarp.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!