actually alll.. the whole problem is the WHOLE ENTIRE premise of how this game was built.
SFC2 and SFC3 had the right premise which shifted all the cheesiness in this game to actual skill. The only skill in this game is timing.
Can you activate subnuke at the right time that it is advantageous to a victory? Has your target exhausted all his heals and can you now activate alpha, dem3, etc... and get the victory kill?
Cloakers do this easily because they can wait out a battle. non-cloakers must simply last long enough until their target has used up all heals and then blow them to bits, assuming there isn't a coward cloaker lurking nearby that puts in 0% effort for a vape of an already weakened ship. Sci just placates and defers their death through tricks and annoyance.
Get rid of all these abilities, special abilities, console abilities etc.. boost shields and hull of every ship. Attach hardpoints to the hulls so that when hit, it will cause damage. Have an inexhaustable supply of repair parts that can repair the damaged systems (hardpoints) within a specified amount of time.
If a warp core is damaged, it will take 2 days to fix it. In STO terms, this equates to 1 minute. If your weapon systems are damaged and it takes 12 hours to fix it, that will translate to 15 seconds to repair, meaning you must survive for that long without weapons. Make the repair time proportional to the percentage of damage with a max cap on repair time.
For example, 100% damage to warp core takes a max of 2 days, or in STO time, 1 minute to repair. That also does not stop your enemies from continuing to pound on your warp core while you are attempting to repair, thereby slowing down repair.
If a system is 50% damaged, then it will be 50% effective. I've never seen a game where you can be at 1% hull and still have 100% use of all systems. gah!
Can you turn your the damaged side of your ship away from the weapons fire. Can you reenforce shields to a certain subsystem (or arc) to protect an already damaged subsystem.
Anyway, you get the idea. All the tricks and cheesiness in this game makes it completely unrealistic. All of this chance TRIBBLE has got to go for a true star trek game.
Cryptic.. why don't you just start another star trek project (assuming there actually is no other star trek game developers in the entire world) and do what I suggested above. I guarantee you'd get every pvper back.
Perhaps now is the time to split off the product line. Have a pve star trek game and have a completely separate pvp star trek game since you can't seem to balance for both play styles in one game.
use the same client and have a pvp or pve radial button. let the user choose what he wants to play. Then have separate servers where one is tuned for pvp and the other is tuned for pve......... or somehow, I guess, put conditions in every part of this code for pvp and pve. I don't know what the correct answer is for you, but this TRIBBLE is nutz as it is!
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
reason we see 3 sci ships (healers) and two tacs is as the current meta of the game is because you can virtually stalemate about 95% of whats out there with cross healing, thats a problem in my eyes, thats op in my eyes, thats the major factor in why we dont see diversity in pvp matches (ships, builds, etc) and the reason why fighting noobs boils down to 15-0 matches that are not fun for either side
thats also the reason why for so long its almost been required to run 3 subnukes just to get 1 kill- because of cross healing is so strong
do people really want that? is that what makes pvp fun? how many nukes one side and how much cross healing they can do? everything else is there for some random number roll to create an opening and then the folks pat themselves on the back for their skill? LOL some random lucky opening leads to a kill after 3 nukes?
make all the weapons more lethal, but do like what they are doing now, lower down their high end a bit, so we dont have folks getting nailed for enough damage to have killed them twice over, LOL thats stupid, I mean, I love a lucky crit just as much as the next guy, but I would rather have a more stabalized base to go off so that I might build a combo OR work with a team to build a combo to capitalize on the stratagy of use of a bridge officer power instead of just hail mary attacks crossing my fingers for a lucky crit and then calling it skill
lower down the healing so we dont have 2 healers OR ONE HEALER, just totally stalling out an entire teams efforts, theres now enough escape console in the game, enough get out of jail free cards, for folks to prolong the fight enough to make a difference
just to be clear, I DO NOT WANT HEALING TO BE IRRELEVANT, i just to see a happy balance that would have a eng in a heal boat beable to keep 2 peeps alive in a match under fire or 1 alive under mass distress and disables, and then 2 off healer types (tac-heal heavy, sci-heal heavy) beable to simulate the 1 eng healboat role and effect,
as the game stands now, a couple off healers can easily keep an entire team alive, dont think thats a good balance
would lead to closer matches, then getting matches that are 15-0 would be something to be proud of instead of now its a yawn,
folks gotta let go of the idea of never dieing, like to have that effect in pvp should take a team devoted 95% to healing to pull that off, not just have two recluse healboats is all to have like no deaths, AKA now the other team needs like 3 nukes just to get 1 stupid kill
I knew a guy that as a top tier healer, eng healboat, its funny when you think about how some folks base their fun off pvp in how often they DIDNT die, opposed to the real thing that matters and thats the score on the board, win/loss
you all know that out of all the roles in pvp the one that has had the least nerfs, setback, tweeks, is healers,
and this guy, he loved playing this game when he could single handedly heal an entire team while never dieing, then.. roms came out, and then, they nerfed the 2 part borg set
he started dying in matches, and his teammates started dying as well, he doesnt log on much anymore, and often complains out about those 2 points, (this game is so screwed up, im getting vaped now, thats so wrong) was his words, I rebutled- why shouldnt you die? 2 guys just saved everthing they had for the last 3 minutes and decloaked on you, shouldnt anyone die to that? their team was 2 man down for 3 minutes strait, problem in this game is the healing, (I said) cause look at us, for the last 3 minutes we havent been able to get 1 killl off these stupid 3 ships chain healing each other, thats whats screwed up
anyways, final thought, LOL
about the lotto comment, I have an old buddy, dan, that always did that tactic in debates and arguements, he would hear your point, explain his point and then end on some backhanded comment to make the entire conversation irrelevant, like in some vane effort that it made his point more valueable and the debate should end after what he just last stated
LOL man, he did it so often I finally started calling him on it, LIKE: if you feel that theres no chance cryptic would ever attempt to balance it, why waste the time pointing out your thoughts on it?
really, whats the point? I feel cryptic does look at the feedback, I do feel cryptic is trying to balance this thing out (they suck at it, but they are trying)
why else would they have change bo in the first place? for pve? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
pve doent even take bridge officer powers to beat on elite for god sakes:)
sorry for the long post and spelling errors, at work, typing fast:)
do people really want that? is that what makes pvp fun? how many nukes one side and how much cross healing they can do? everything else is there for some random number roll to create an opening and then the folks pat themselves on the back for their skill? LOL some random lucky opening leads to a kill after 3 nukes?
Yes, that's what makes premade pvp worth it. Because openings NEVER open randomly, you have to force the other team to give you an opening....and of course a nuke helps doing that. It's all about strategy and tactics. If people just want to shoot at things and see them explode everytime they use Alpha, STF's or Cap'n Hold are the better options. This discussion only has a meaning in premade terms, because in the random arena we can get 5 Recluse on one side and 5 Bugs on the other side since there is no matchmaking system.
Yes, that's what makes premade pvp worth it. Because openings NEVER open randomly, you have to force the other team to give you an opening....and of course a nuke helps doing that. It's all about strategy and tactics. If people just want to shoot at things and see them explode everytime they use Alpha, STF's or Cap'n Hold are the better options. This discussion only has a meaning in premade terms, because in the random arena we can get 5 Recluse on one side and 5 Bugs on the other side since there is no matchmaking system.
I agree with you to an extent. I still think burst damage and healing can be ridiculous.
I know you've been healing longer than I have and are no doubt better than me but when someone dies on your team from full health before you can react no matter how fast you do it, or when two or three tacs blow everything they have at a target for a full minute and can't make a dent something is wrong. And that's where the game then it turns less on skill and more on what console you can use to prevent one or the other.
P.S. I fully recognize I use some of those consoles. This was a discussion as to how the game should be.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]-32nd Vipers- PvP Team
Nothing is impossible to him who would try.... except getting cryptic to care about pvp.
I always thought there was a great system that could reduce the amounts of stalemates due to massive crosshealing.
Ship injuries!
In PvP you acquire ship injuries that reduce your effectiveness similar to ESTFS but you receive them while you're still alive and cannot be healed until you die or the match is over.
This would also reduce people who fly around all match receiving massive heals every time they get targeted and never die. Eventually their systems wouldn't be as resilient.
I wouldn't allow injuries to be repairable once out of combat as this would make further game inbalances but repaired on death.
I know most people wont like it, but I like this idea and it's very trek.
It would seem I have brought up a popular topic looking at the number of reads and responses :cool: It would also seem there are a lot of players unhappy with the proposed up coming extra nerf to beam overload..
So how about it Devs, leave it be for a while, and don't do the extra 15% downgrade I have heard rumors about. Hopefully 1 of them will take note of this thread and re-consider nerfing Beam overload anymore than they already have .:eek:
Hawk started a thread in the Build, Powers forum about what people think about abilities and how they would like them changed. Perhaps you should post in there as well.
And we need more PvPers in there as PvEers are already saying albeit in a polite way "TRIBBLE PvP" change everything for PvE
And THAT is why we can't have nice things. As it is, you guys have too much truck with Bort, etc. Things get changed VERY quick when they are on this subforum.
PvP serves a small fraction of the game. It's numbers baby: no one gives a frak about your "vape" build.
And THAT is why we can't have nice things. As it is, you guys have too much truck with Bort, etc. Things get changed VERY quick when they are on this subforum.
PvP serves a small fraction of the game. It's numbers baby: no one gives a frak about your "vape" build.
Please go back on your meds.
Cryptic has made decisions that have made both the pve and pvp communities unhappy. That is why a lot of the pvpers have left this game. This delusion that pvpers have the ear of the devs is nothing but that. If not we would have more than the crappy maps we do and would have other types of pvp as people have been asking for ages.
The reason it seems like the devs listen more to pvpers is that we are more likely to expose the I intended consequences of their actions because we test things extensively. As has been repeated ad naseum an NPC is not going to come into the forums to complaint when cryptic's new god button shuts him down completely with no option to save himself, a person will. Same things with stacking of certain abilities, combination of abilities, doffs, etc.
Finally, pve in this game, as of this moment is nothing but a DPS race, so for the full effect of non dps abilities pvpers are more experienced than most pvers.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]-32nd Vipers- PvP Team
Nothing is impossible to him who would try.... except getting cryptic to care about pvp.
Speaking of DPS race, we now have the latest push-this-button-for-max-deeps. It's called TBR with that TRIBBLE new trait from level 15 Science R&D. More of the same, fly about aimlessly rotating your two copies of TBR with as many particle gen consoles as you can squeeze on there and watch your DPS numbers dwarf everything else around you. Guess cryptic didn't want those sci-kirk heroes in pve land to be left out after all, good for them.
Speaking of DPS race, we now have the latest push-this-button-for-max-deeps. It's called TBR with that TRIBBLE new trait from level 15 Science R&D. More of the same, fly about aimlessly rotating your two copies of TBR with as many particle gen consoles as you can squeeze on there and watch your DPS numbers dwarf everything else around you. Guess cryptic didn't want those sci-kirk heroes in pve land to be left out after all, good for them.
Lol, come on, it wasn't that bad. I only died once in that match.
Lol, come on, it wasn't that bad. I only died once in that match.
Haha, nice to see you here. For anyone curious, Lucho was not the one using said trait.
Not just referring to that one match by any means. Should ONE trait really increase someone's damage by what, 200%, 300%, or even 400%?? This puts stupid FAW numbers to shame, and the problem being it actually does meaningful damage. TBR could do some good damage before if used properly, this just hands it over on a silver platter. Once again for max deeps, less thinking required.
From now on take 5 wells or palisades, double up on the tbr, and fly around in circles around your enemies. Fly them with tactical captains for extra spice, oh and don't forget FBP.
Speaking of DPS race, we now have the latest push-this-button-for-max-deeps. It's called TBR with that TRIBBLE new trait from level 15 Science R&D. More of the same, fly about aimlessly rotating your two copies of TBR with as many particle gen consoles as you can squeeze on there and watch your DPS numbers dwarf everything else around you. Guess cryptic didn't want those sci-kirk heroes in pve land to be left out after all, good for them.
Mix in fbp and yeah...insane...especially with the part gen craftables, that trait is stupid....me want:)
BO now like hitting targets with a water beam at this rate. I use BO always I can see the difference now. If they lower Cannons damage also, like we're shooting paper shells at the target. These weapons are not the only features that seem to be throttling down on percentage damage wise. Going to make it tougher.
I have a feeling Cryptic may be feeling pretty confused by now. Too strong, and then nerf, and then people are saying it's too weak.
Pity we have to play the hot-cold game with adjustments like this.
Yeah, if only we had a place where we could test all of this stuff and provide feedback before it went to holodeck.....oh. This is a shot at the devs by the way, not you Scurry.
Yeah, if only we had a place where we could test all of this stuff and provide feedback before it went to holodeck.....oh. This is a shot at the devs by the way, not you Scurry.
Yeah, I understand.
The thing about Tribble, though.....how many people actually bother patching and testing changes when they happen? What fraction of the population?
But then the devs also cause problems there, with an impressively short patch cycle - both good and bad - so not enough time for feedback to make a difference, and then it doesn't seem like feedback is being listened to, and then people stop bothering.....vicious cycle?
The thing about Tribble, though.....how many people actually bother patching and testing changes when they happen? What fraction of the population?
But then the devs also cause problems there, with an impressively short patch cycle - both good and bad - so not enough time for feedback to make a difference, and then it doesn't seem like feedback is being listened to, and then people stop bothering.....vicious cycle?
*Sigh*, just musing about things.
At one time plenty of people tested changes. Then at some point Cryptic decided they didn't really care for feedback so people decided to not bother providing it. Tribble was a great idea... and any time they where serious about feedback a new tribble reward would bring more then enough regular non 14year old basement dwelling min maxers out to test as well. Used to work just fine. I guess one to many times we game them honest negative feedback about honest negative changes.
STO had that happy medium place at launch. The DEVS pushed it out of there. So how this fixes any of the consoles out there I'm unsure as the base mechanics haven't changed. All we did was put in a poorly thought out 'fix' to something that was working as intended.
It is almost as if they don't understand their own combat model, and how it is supposed to work.
Bops where already obsolete flanking wasn't going to save them even if they triple it.
All the removal of Overload does is make the game more heavy ship online. I would guess until T6 details come in the meta until october will be sci sci sci sci carrier sci sci sci carrier. I could be wrong but something tells me most escort jocks will just move to a heavier ship until something changes. All cannon builds where already laughable for the most part. Unless I see something different I have yet to see a good escort build for the amount of resist around right now that didn't rely on either click consoles or overload or both.
The devs don't know what they're doing. You guys have been around the block long enough to see the insane trends they introduce Season after Season, lockbox after lockbox, ship after ship, console after console.
As far as Tribble testing: Bleh. It's bad and it's always been like this for a long, long time now. It's bad to the point that if you see a glaring exploit, glaring issue when it hits Tribble, it's guaranteed to hit Holodeck. It's so bad that Tribble shouldn't exist because it's pointless. Holodeck is the regular Live Server and Test Server, all in one.
I am hearing from several sources from the tribble side of town, they are intending on nerfing BO further. Yeah it's got 100% crit , but they cut the hit power by 25% also when they did that. Now I am hearing they gonna cut the power an additional 15%.
I say ENOUGH ALREADY. :eek: BO was 1 of the few equalizers a tactical ship with less shields and hull had in a stand up fight with the heavily armored cruiser & sci ships, and all their aux2 bat builds.
Not to mention all the damn EC and dilithium and TIME we have spent working on our builds with beam overload as a deciding factor. Now with another 15% reduction in the hit power, they just took away 40% of the strength of the hit. Put it back like it was , as a user of beam overload on several of my builds , I have noticed a significant drop in kills even with the so called 100% crit rate.:mad:
something not mentioned in this entire thread,
bo was nerfed 25%
then another 13%
38% total so far and still crits massively
next all your ec and dilithium on your build is already a waste as you'll soon have to buy new weapons and various other gear when the mk increases, which will boost the base damage on weapons and probably other factors as universal consoles, or rather mk xiv gear/level 60 in total as we've seen many times before nerfs and revamps will probably just make bo even MOAR powerful then now once the new gear comes along.
i know i know its crazy right? using logic of the past you've seen so many times before in sto to predict the future of power creep, i suppose this is why it's called power creep it slowly creeps up on ya like this even thro every nerf and revamp has lead to even more powerful builds down the road :P
Comments
SFC2 and SFC3 had the right premise which shifted all the cheesiness in this game to actual skill. The only skill in this game is timing.
Can you activate subnuke at the right time that it is advantageous to a victory? Has your target exhausted all his heals and can you now activate alpha, dem3, etc... and get the victory kill?
Cloakers do this easily because they can wait out a battle. non-cloakers must simply last long enough until their target has used up all heals and then blow them to bits, assuming there isn't a coward cloaker lurking nearby that puts in 0% effort for a vape of an already weakened ship. Sci just placates and defers their death through tricks and annoyance.
Get rid of all these abilities, special abilities, console abilities etc.. boost shields and hull of every ship. Attach hardpoints to the hulls so that when hit, it will cause damage. Have an inexhaustable supply of repair parts that can repair the damaged systems (hardpoints) within a specified amount of time.
If a warp core is damaged, it will take 2 days to fix it. In STO terms, this equates to 1 minute. If your weapon systems are damaged and it takes 12 hours to fix it, that will translate to 15 seconds to repair, meaning you must survive for that long without weapons. Make the repair time proportional to the percentage of damage with a max cap on repair time.
For example, 100% damage to warp core takes a max of 2 days, or in STO time, 1 minute to repair. That also does not stop your enemies from continuing to pound on your warp core while you are attempting to repair, thereby slowing down repair.
If a system is 50% damaged, then it will be 50% effective. I've never seen a game where you can be at 1% hull and still have 100% use of all systems. gah!
Can you turn your the damaged side of your ship away from the weapons fire. Can you reenforce shields to a certain subsystem (or arc) to protect an already damaged subsystem.
Anyway, you get the idea. All the tricks and cheesiness in this game makes it completely unrealistic. All of this chance TRIBBLE has got to go for a true star trek game.
Cryptic.. why don't you just start another star trek project (assuming there actually is no other star trek game developers in the entire world) and do what I suggested above. I guarantee you'd get every pvper back.
Perhaps now is the time to split off the product line. Have a pve star trek game and have a completely separate pvp star trek game since you can't seem to balance for both play styles in one game.
use the same client and have a pvp or pve radial button. let the user choose what he wants to play. Then have separate servers where one is tuned for pvp and the other is tuned for pve......... or somehow, I guess, put conditions in every part of this code for pvp and pve. I don't know what the correct answer is for you, but this TRIBBLE is nutz as it is!
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
Wall of text.
1 line reply? who are you and what have you done with Cap?
Yes, that's what makes premade pvp worth it. Because openings NEVER open randomly, you have to force the other team to give you an opening....and of course a nuke helps doing that. It's all about strategy and tactics. If people just want to shoot at things and see them explode everytime they use Alpha, STF's or Cap'n Hold are the better options. This discussion only has a meaning in premade terms, because in the random arena we can get 5 Recluse on one side and 5 Bugs on the other side since there is no matchmaking system.
I agree with you to an extent. I still think burst damage and healing can be ridiculous.
I know you've been healing longer than I have and are no doubt better than me but when someone dies on your team from full health before you can react no matter how fast you do it, or when two or three tacs blow everything they have at a target for a full minute and can't make a dent something is wrong. And that's where the game then it turns less on skill and more on what console you can use to prevent one or the other.
P.S. I fully recognize I use some of those consoles. This was a discussion as to how the game should be.
Nothing is impossible to him who would try.... except getting cryptic to care about pvp.
still works non gdf
77k raw is beast come and test this
I know most people wont like it, but I like this idea and it's very trek.
poor Ker'nal RIP buddy!
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
So how about it Devs, leave it be for a while, and don't do the extra 15% downgrade I have heard rumors about. Hopefully 1 of them will take note of this thread and re-consider nerfing Beam overload anymore than they already have .:eek:
And THAT is why we can't have nice things. As it is, you guys have too much truck with Bort, etc. Things get changed VERY quick when they are on this subforum.
PvP serves a small fraction of the game. It's numbers baby: no one gives a frak about your "vape" build.
Please go back on your meds.
Cryptic has made decisions that have made both the pve and pvp communities unhappy. That is why a lot of the pvpers have left this game. This delusion that pvpers have the ear of the devs is nothing but that. If not we would have more than the crappy maps we do and would have other types of pvp as people have been asking for ages.
The reason it seems like the devs listen more to pvpers is that we are more likely to expose the I intended consequences of their actions because we test things extensively. As has been repeated ad naseum an NPC is not going to come into the forums to complaint when cryptic's new god button shuts him down completely with no option to save himself, a person will. Same things with stacking of certain abilities, combination of abilities, doffs, etc.
Finally, pve in this game, as of this moment is nothing but a DPS race, so for the full effect of non dps abilities pvpers are more experienced than most pvers.
Nothing is impossible to him who would try.... except getting cryptic to care about pvp.
Lol, come on, it wasn't that bad. I only died once in that match.
Poor soul didnt have time to log out.
Haha, nice to see you here. For anyone curious, Lucho was not the one using said trait.
Not just referring to that one match by any means. Should ONE trait really increase someone's damage by what, 200%, 300%, or even 400%?? This puts stupid FAW numbers to shame, and the problem being it actually does meaningful damage. TBR could do some good damage before if used properly, this just hands it over on a silver platter. Once again for max deeps, less thinking required.
From now on take 5 wells or palisades, double up on the tbr, and fly around in circles around your enemies. Fly them with tactical captains for extra spice, oh and don't forget FBP.
Mix in fbp and yeah...insane...especially with the part gen craftables, that trait is stupid....me want:)
Time will only tell!
"I always hope for the best. Experience, unfortunately, has taught me to expect the worst."
-Elim Garak
Pity we have to play the hot-cold game with adjustments like this.
Yeah, if only we had a place where we could test all of this stuff and provide feedback before it went to holodeck.....oh. This is a shot at the devs by the way, not you Scurry.
Yeah, I understand.
The thing about Tribble, though.....how many people actually bother patching and testing changes when they happen? What fraction of the population?
But then the devs also cause problems there, with an impressively short patch cycle - both good and bad - so not enough time for feedback to make a difference, and then it doesn't seem like feedback is being listened to, and then people stop bothering.....vicious cycle?
*Sigh*, just musing about things.
At one time plenty of people tested changes. Then at some point Cryptic decided they didn't really care for feedback so people decided to not bother providing it. Tribble was a great idea... and any time they where serious about feedback a new tribble reward would bring more then enough regular non 14year old basement dwelling min maxers out to test as well. Used to work just fine. I guess one to many times we game them honest negative feedback about honest negative changes.
The devs don't know what they're doing. You guys have been around the block long enough to see the insane trends they introduce Season after Season, lockbox after lockbox, ship after ship, console after console.
As far as Tribble testing: Bleh. It's bad and it's always been like this for a long, long time now. It's bad to the point that if you see a glaring exploit, glaring issue when it hits Tribble, it's guaranteed to hit Holodeck. It's so bad that Tribble shouldn't exist because it's pointless. Holodeck is the regular Live Server and Test Server, all in one.
something not mentioned in this entire thread,
bo was nerfed 25%
then another 13%
38% total so far and still crits massively
next all your ec and dilithium on your build is already a waste as you'll soon have to buy new weapons and various other gear when the mk increases, which will boost the base damage on weapons and probably other factors as universal consoles, or rather mk xiv gear/level 60 in total as we've seen many times before nerfs and revamps will probably just make bo even MOAR powerful then now once the new gear comes along.
i know i know its crazy right? using logic of the past you've seen so many times before in sto to predict the future of power creep, i suppose this is why it's called power creep it slowly creeps up on ya like this even thro every nerf and revamp has lead to even more powerful builds down the road :P