-Elim Garak and the Cardassians became my favorite characters and race respectively in all of ST.
-Sisko punched Q, who was rocking that awesome mustache literally a decade before it caught on with hipsters and ninja warrior contestants and before that dorky boxing became a meme. Sisko really was just my favorite captain by far.
-We got a peak at what a war might look like in a time with that level of technology and its effects on those societies. Not saying the maquis couldn't have been handled better, but it was interesting seeing the Federation try to cope with them, the Cardassians/Bajorans, and the Dominion.
-Speaking of societies, Bajor was an interesting attempt at discussing the complexity of assimilating a single distinct culture into a larger foreign governing body (The Federation).
-Jadzia Dax was probably the most appealing female inner-circle/recurring/main character of all the series.
-The defiant was awesome, and between it and the peregrine fighters, it was some needed illumination into Starfleet's wartime capabilities, something everyone had wondered about up until then.
-Personally, I found Odo to be a surprisingly likeable character. I empathized more with him than anyone else in the show by the end of it all.
-They gave us a lot of background on Ferengi Culture, which was humorous if not interesting. Jake and Nog's double date springs to mind as a good example of what I'm talking about, it exmplified the everyday challenges cooperating intelligent races would face in an interstellar community.
-The Grand Nagus' voice will never not make me smile at least a little.
-The Jem'Hadar were a fascinating race to me.
-DS9 brought us Jeffrey Combs, who would later play Shran, ie, the only reason to ever watch Enterprise. Combs played a lot of characters, and he played them all well. He should also be commended for his having been involved in TNG, DS9, and ENT, but having the luck to completely skip over any involvement in VOY. Good call, Jeff!
-The baseball episode had me laughing out loud and I'm not ashamed to admit it.
"One of the runners didn't touch the base!"
Nog: "What do I do?"
Worf: "FIND HIM AND KILL HIM"
-Speaking of Klingons, Dax and the Dahar masters' secret crusade was an awesome episode.
I think there's a lot not to like about DS9. The show's biggest strength, IMO, is that it manages to be completely awesome despite it.
I didn't much like most of the characters. I'm fond of Sisko, Odo, and a few others, but Jadzia and a couple other characters I really despise. Mainly because they were pseudo-Mary-Sues. (Mary Psues?) Never got called out on their nonsense, etc. (Basically, Jadzia is the problem with feminism-motivated female characters in a nutshell.)
And nonetheless...it had a full-series story. It had an actual war. And it showed us proper space battles, unlike TNG and even Voyager, which were too lazy. (Not going to blame TOS here, as the style was submarine combat, basically.) (There are way too many parentheses in this post.)
Oh and of course Sisko is among the best captains, given his no-nonsense attitude. He sort of ties with Kirk for position as the best.
Its the best series, probably the most realistic in the confines of the happy trek future, with the best most complex characters and its long stary arcs. the battles are spectacular and has some of the best episodes of any sci-fi show let alone other treks.
there is some dross in there too. its certainly not perfect but you tend to get that with most sc-fi shows. having such a broad number of ways to tell stories often leads to a few stinkers, but generally it was excellent. even its first season was quite strong compared to other treks.
DS9 was great and it really did give the Star Trek universe more of a grounding that you just couldn't get with the Enterprise moving on to the next place each week. So many great characters, Garak, Odo, Quark...
It seemed to hit it's stride with series 4 IMO, which is about when TNG and Enterprise did.
I still prefer Picard to Sisko, but there's no denying how awesome he was.
In the end though I think the overall theme of the Bajoran versus Cardassian dilemma is now anachronistic in a post 9/11 U.S.A. So one of the main themes of the show loses a lot of its power.
It's funny, I was watching Paradise Lost the other day and thinking just how prescient it sounded on future real life events. I know that's not the Bajoran/Cardassian thing, but I don't think that's as anachronistic as you say either.
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The only Trek series that has held up the most for me. My favorite, by far.
My most favorite part of the show was the way it handled religion... from the unwavering faith of the Bajorans, even in the face of "outside influences" that pretty blatantly rejected their beliefs... to the character arc of Sisko, going from unbelieving skeptic to fully embracing his role in the Prophets' grand scheme. The outright rejection of religion by Gene Roddenberry is something I find glaringly wrong and short-sighted in the Trek mythos... and I think that DS9 (along with other sci-fi shows, like Babylon 5) prove that a lot of good can come from religion, and you don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water.
The Jem'Hadar also rule.
This show is why I have a Bajoran as my primary toon, I have the full Defiant setup for one of my ships, and I'm pursuing the full Jem'Hadar ship set.
Gul Dukat before he was made crazy by the writers.
Jadzia Dax when they finally gave her something to do (I'd have to rewatch, but in a later season, possibly 4, I downright fell in love with her character - the more crushing her end was for me).
Lots of Ferengi (FCA and Ferenginar, yay!).
Odo wasn't bad.
Klingons were featured quite a bit.
And last I can't deny Kira at times looked what internet likes to call 'cute'.
Overall, when you look at it, I loved all the rubber masked aliens in DS9. The show was all the more diverse for it and yet the aliens had personalities and weren't just simple unidimensional constructs.
(Hmm, now maybe I should go to Risa waiting for Jadzia to appear arguing with Worf, my poor Jadzia...)
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Namely. the season 1-3 version... the regality of the lone trumpet... grand, yet isolated.
Don't like the theme from seasons 4-7, though... the graphics are okay (adding the Defiant was a must), and they had to extend it to add Michael Dorn to the credits... but the pacing feels weird.
It was by far the best of all 6 of the ST series (yes 6, I include TAS)
Positive?
Elim Garak
But honestly it was the acting and the characters that drew me to DS9, being the opposite of Voyager which had horrible acting and horrible characters. DOn't get me wrong, I love Voyager, I was introduced to ST through Voyager, but the other 5 series opened my eyes.
In the end though I think the overall theme of the Bajoran versus Cardassian dilemma is now anachronistic in a post 9/11 U.S.A. So one of the main themes of the show loses a lot of its power.
In a way, yes, but in another way, it is the most thought provoking - because in DS9, we rooted for the terrorists, realizing them as freedom fighters that did what they had to do to escape an evil empire, with methods we don't really approve, but understand.
But that might be too political topic for STO. But it would be something good to "re-explore". (BSG did that to some extent on New Caprica.)
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I must be the only one who supported the Bajorans only before the point where they felt civilian casualties were not just unfortunate accidents, but *justified.* Military targets--fine. Those are people who know the risks and have the ability to fight back. Civilians? Sorry, no. Way to become what one claims to despise. At least have some regret there!
As mentioned before...that angered me to the point of wanting to see Silaran Prin--even as wrong as *he* was--actually *break* Kira and force her to admit she should have remorse for what she did to him. Psychologically, at least: the child, as I think all reasonable (and unreasonable!) parties would agree, did not deserve to pay for the surrogate mother's sins.
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I must be the only one who supported the Bajorans only before the point where they felt civilian casualties were not just unfortunate accidents, but *justified.* Military targets--fine. Those are people who know the risks and have the ability to fight back. Civilians? Sorry, no. Way to become what one claims to despise. At least have some regret there!
As mentioned before...that angered me to the point of wanting to see Silaran Prin--even as wrong as *he* was--actually *break* Kira and force her to admit she should have remorse for what she did to him. Psychologically, at least: the child, as I think all reasonable (and unreasonable!) parties would agree, did not deserve to pay for the surrogate mother's sins.
I agree. Being "oppressed" isn't a carte blanche excuse to hurt random people. Honestly I think that's why the writers went there. They realized they didn't want to depict terrorism as a whole as a good thing. Thus, they spent a little while exploring the difference between being an actual freedom fighter and someone who merely claims to be one.
I must be the only one who supported the Bajorans only before the point where they felt civilian casualties were not just unfortunate accidents, but *justified.* Military targets--fine. Those are people who know the risks and have the ability to fight back. Civilians? Sorry, no. Way to become what one claims to despise. At least have some regret there!
As mentioned before...that angered me to the point of wanting to see Silaran Prin--even as wrong as *he* was--actually *break* Kira and force her to admit she should have remorse for what she did to him. Psychologically, at least: the child, as I think all reasonable (and unreasonable!) parties would agree, did not deserve to pay for the surrogate mother's sins.
I think only by deliberating and willingly attacking civilians, you become a real terrorist. And this made the point that yes, Kira wasn't just some freedom fighter that fought for the right cause with he right methods.
Of course, whether she could justify it in the end to herself or not, that was probably pretty much open. But in a way, it was her "In Pale Moonlight" moment.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,688Community Moderator
edited July 2014
Jadzia and Ezri Dax.
Also it showed a grittier side of Starfleet, especially in regards to running a frontier station that wasn't in the best condition at times.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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The fact it actually had story progression from season 1 to 7 the tone was set with why was Sisko so special to finding out why in season 7 then to realising he had a greater reason to live other than as a starfleet officer
The fact the story arcs made sense and wasn't just two part episodes
The characters were 3d with back stories all of them
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
It wasn't my favourite series but I enjoyed it, what I did like about it (and later in voyager too) was that it had a clear timeline, there was a story that was gradually being told with each episode.
With TOS and TNG there wasn't really an overwhelming story line to it and you could pretty much watch most episodes in any order, yes there were episodes that made more sense in order for example the episode where they meet Q needs to be seen before any of the other Q episode to get the full effect, but as a rule they were merely individual episodes with little linking them together.
With DS9 this completely changed, every episode led on to the next in some way, every episode developed an existing character or introduced a new character and the story unfolded.
Regarding "Kira Nerys the terrorist" for a moment, I personally don't see much of a connection between the Resistance and al-Qa'ida. Now, the writers may have had the Afghan Mujahideen in mind when they wrote it (I honestly don't know), but I see more of an allusion to French, Polish, Ukrainian, Italian, etc. partisans battling the TRIBBLE. Really the only similarity they have to radical Islamic terrorism is that the Bajorans are religious.
Kira was born in the 2340s, at which point the Bajorans, a formerly free people, were 30 or so years into a foreign military occupation that had banned the free practice of their religion, was herding them into concentration camps, was stealing their women for TRIBBLE, was enslaving them in decidedly non-OSHA-compliant conditions, and was slaughtering them by the millions (I frankly think the 15 million dead Bajorans number given in the series was a scaling error). At that point the unfortunate truth is that any civilian, Bajoran or Cardassian, who willingly aids the Cardassian Guard occupying forces becomes a legitimate military target.
Also, I will point to the fact that when she gives her "Shut up, Hannibal!" speech to Prin in "The Darkness and the Light", she used the past tense when referring to the Cardie civilians she killed as legitimate targets. Also recall the end of "Duet" from season one. Taken together, it rather suggests she no longer believes all Cardassians to be automatically a target, but I really don't believe she has anything to apologize for.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
In the end though I think the overall theme of the Bajoran versus Cardassian dilemma is now anachronistic in a post 9/11 U.S.A. So one of the main themes of the show loses a lot of its power.
How so? I think the nice thing about a lot of Star Trek is that it is reasonably timeless. Most of what is presented can be seen again years later and still be relevant to modern situations...
1. Sisko punching Q in the face
2. Odo turning solid and having to wear real clothes
3. Bashir and Garak's bromance
4. Jeff Combs
5. The fact that the Borg were only mentioned and not featured
6. When Thomas Riker became relevant, rhater than a simple clone
7. Damar's development, and how it was actually believable
8. Cardassians...usually. The exception for me was Empok Nor. NOT well done.
9. Jeff Combs...when he had to drink kanar. He seemed genuine when he said it was toxic.
10. HOLOPORN
My Old Blog about things that could and should have been added when I wrote it. Not sure what I want to do with it now. I'll just keep it available now that most of it is outdated.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,688Community Moderator
Also, I will point to the fact that when she gives her "Shut up, Hannibal!" speech to Prin in "The Darkness and the Light", she used the past tense when referring to the Cardie civilians she killed as legitimate targets. Also recall the end of "Duet" from season one. Taken together, it rather suggests she no longer believes all Cardassians to be automatically a target, but I really don't believe she has anything to apologize for.
I believe she still held a grudge against the Cardassian Military though. However Kira did get to a point where civilian casualties, even Cardassian civilians, were unacceptable as it accomplished nothing.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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Comments
-Elim Garak and the Cardassians became my favorite characters and race respectively in all of ST.
-Sisko punched Q, who was rocking that awesome mustache literally a decade before it caught on with hipsters and ninja warrior contestants and before that dorky boxing became a meme. Sisko really was just my favorite captain by far.
-We got a peak at what a war might look like in a time with that level of technology and its effects on those societies. Not saying the maquis couldn't have been handled better, but it was interesting seeing the Federation try to cope with them, the Cardassians/Bajorans, and the Dominion.
-Speaking of societies, Bajor was an interesting attempt at discussing the complexity of assimilating a single distinct culture into a larger foreign governing body (The Federation).
-Jadzia Dax was probably the most appealing female inner-circle/recurring/main character of all the series.
-The defiant was awesome, and between it and the peregrine fighters, it was some needed illumination into Starfleet's wartime capabilities, something everyone had wondered about up until then.
-Personally, I found Odo to be a surprisingly likeable character. I empathized more with him than anyone else in the show by the end of it all.
-They gave us a lot of background on Ferengi Culture, which was humorous if not interesting. Jake and Nog's double date springs to mind as a good example of what I'm talking about, it exmplified the everyday challenges cooperating intelligent races would face in an interstellar community.
-The Grand Nagus' voice will never not make me smile at least a little.
-The Jem'Hadar were a fascinating race to me.
-DS9 brought us Jeffrey Combs, who would later play Shran, ie, the only reason to ever watch Enterprise. Combs played a lot of characters, and he played them all well. He should also be commended for his having been involved in TNG, DS9, and ENT, but having the luck to completely skip over any involvement in VOY. Good call, Jeff!
-The baseball episode had me laughing out loud and I'm not ashamed to admit it.
"One of the runners didn't touch the base!"
Nog: "What do I do?"
Worf: "FIND HIM AND KILL HIM"
-Speaking of Klingons, Dax and the Dahar masters' secret crusade was an awesome episode.
I didn't much like most of the characters. I'm fond of Sisko, Odo, and a few others, but Jadzia and a couple other characters I really despise. Mainly because they were pseudo-Mary-Sues. (Mary Psues?) Never got called out on their nonsense, etc. (Basically, Jadzia is the problem with feminism-motivated female characters in a nutshell.)
And nonetheless...it had a full-series story. It had an actual war. And it showed us proper space battles, unlike TNG and even Voyager, which were too lazy. (Not going to blame TOS here, as the style was submarine combat, basically.) (There are way too many parentheses in this post.)
Oh and of course Sisko is among the best captains, given his no-nonsense attitude. He sort of ties with Kirk for position as the best.
there is some dross in there too. its certainly not perfect but you tend to get that with most sc-fi shows. having such a broad number of ways to tell stories often leads to a few stinkers, but generally it was excellent. even its first season was quite strong compared to other treks.
It seemed to hit it's stride with series 4 IMO, which is about when TNG and Enterprise did.
I still prefer Picard to Sisko, but there's no denying how awesome he was.
It's funny, I was watching Paradise Lost the other day and thinking just how prescient it sounded on future real life events. I know that's not the Bajoran/Cardassian thing, but I don't think that's as anachronistic as you say either.
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100% this!
My most favorite part of the show was the way it handled religion... from the unwavering faith of the Bajorans, even in the face of "outside influences" that pretty blatantly rejected their beliefs... to the character arc of Sisko, going from unbelieving skeptic to fully embracing his role in the Prophets' grand scheme. The outright rejection of religion by Gene Roddenberry is something I find glaringly wrong and short-sighted in the Trek mythos... and I think that DS9 (along with other sci-fi shows, like Babylon 5) prove that a lot of good can come from religion, and you don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water.
The Jem'Hadar also rule.
This show is why I have a Bajoran as my primary toon, I have the full Defiant setup for one of my ships, and I'm pursuing the full Jem'Hadar ship set.
Gul Dukat before he was made crazy by the writers.
Jadzia Dax when they finally gave her something to do (I'd have to rewatch, but in a later season, possibly 4, I downright fell in love with her character - the more crushing her end was for me).
Lots of Ferengi (FCA and Ferenginar, yay!).
Odo wasn't bad.
Klingons were featured quite a bit.
And last I can't deny Kira at times looked what internet likes to call 'cute'.
Overall, when you look at it, I loved all the rubber masked aliens in DS9. The show was all the more diverse for it and yet the aliens had personalities and weren't just simple unidimensional constructs.
(Hmm, now maybe I should go to Risa waiting for Jadzia to appear arguing with Worf, my poor Jadzia...)
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
i liked the spinny-ness of it
Namely. the season 1-3 version... the regality of the lone trumpet... grand, yet isolated.
Don't like the theme from seasons 4-7, though... the graphics are okay (adding the Defiant was a must), and they had to extend it to add Michael Dorn to the credits... but the pacing feels weird.
Positive?
Elim Garak
But honestly it was the acting and the characters that drew me to DS9, being the opposite of Voyager which had horrible acting and horrible characters. DOn't get me wrong, I love Voyager, I was introduced to ST through Voyager, but the other 5 series opened my eyes.
=/\=USS Lindsey Stirling =/\= NCC-116747 =/\=
=/\= Liberty Task Force =/\= Diplomatic Advisor =/\=
But that might be too political topic for STO. But it would be something good to "re-explore". (BSG did that to some extent on New Caprica.)
As mentioned before...that angered me to the point of wanting to see Silaran Prin--even as wrong as *he* was--actually *break* Kira and force her to admit she should have remorse for what she did to him. Psychologically, at least: the child, as I think all reasonable (and unreasonable!) parties would agree, did not deserve to pay for the surrogate mother's sins.
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My character Tsin'xing
Of course, whether she could justify it in the end to herself or not, that was probably pretty much open. But in a way, it was her "In Pale Moonlight" moment.
Also it showed a grittier side of Starfleet, especially in regards to running a frontier station that wasn't in the best condition at times.
Cardassian Replicators and Earth coffee anyone?
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Actually I can never say it without also naming:
The Visitor &
Far Beyond the Stars
The fact the story arcs made sense and wasn't just two part episodes
The characters were 3d with back stories all of them
And the best dam space battles trek has ever had
DABO GIRLS!
It was the first program to show me the potential of serialized TV.
It remains the one series that made me feel like the Star Trek universe is a living, breathing place.
With TOS and TNG there wasn't really an overwhelming story line to it and you could pretty much watch most episodes in any order, yes there were episodes that made more sense in order for example the episode where they meet Q needs to be seen before any of the other Q episode to get the full effect, but as a rule they were merely individual episodes with little linking them together.
With DS9 this completely changed, every episode led on to the next in some way, every episode developed an existing character or introduced a new character and the story unfolded.
Kira was born in the 2340s, at which point the Bajorans, a formerly free people, were 30 or so years into a foreign military occupation that had banned the free practice of their religion, was herding them into concentration camps, was stealing their women for TRIBBLE, was enslaving them in decidedly non-OSHA-compliant conditions, and was slaughtering them by the millions (I frankly think the 15 million dead Bajorans number given in the series was a scaling error). At that point the unfortunate truth is that any civilian, Bajoran or Cardassian, who willingly aids the Cardassian Guard occupying forces becomes a legitimate military target.
Also, I will point to the fact that when she gives her "Shut up, Hannibal!" speech to Prin in "The Darkness and the Light", she used the past tense when referring to the Cardie civilians she killed as legitimate targets. Also recall the end of "Duet" from season one. Taken together, it rather suggests she no longer believes all Cardassians to be automatically a target, but I really don't believe she has anything to apologize for.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
How so? I think the nice thing about a lot of Star Trek is that it is reasonably timeless. Most of what is presented can be seen again years later and still be relevant to modern situations...
My DS9 happy moments:
1. Sisko punching Q in the face
2. Odo turning solid and having to wear real clothes
3. Bashir and Garak's bromance
4. Jeff Combs
5. The fact that the Borg were only mentioned and not featured
6. When Thomas Riker became relevant, rhater than a simple clone
7. Damar's development, and how it was actually believable
8. Cardassians...usually. The exception for me was Empok Nor. NOT well done.
9. Jeff Combs...when he had to drink kanar. He seemed genuine when he said it was toxic.
10. HOLOPORN
I believe she still held a grudge against the Cardassian Military though. However Kira did get to a point where civilian casualties, even Cardassian civilians, were unacceptable as it accomplished nothing.
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