i feel the new expansion coming which will have exploration content in it
That is the hope that some of us are holding onto. Exploring unexplored space 5 light years away from Earth in the 25th Century is just as silly as no exploration in the Delta Quadrant that is 40,000 light years away from Earth or whatever that distance is. Of course, having exploration in the Delta Quadrant would make it an endgame activity which might cause some problems for those that want to level up through just exploration.
I still enjoy playing STO on and off because the basic mechanics are sound, I enjoy rep grinding, it has enough to do to keep me occupied in bursts, and replaying the stories occasionally, plus occasionally dipping into the Foundry is ok for variety. It always gets a bit boring after a month or two, but I do keep coming back to it when I get a hankering for a Star Trek vibe, and it's still the only space game in town that has good space AND ground combat.
But come on devs, there wasn't all that much wrong with exploration as it was, it was just buggy and didn't have enough variety. I could understand you yanking it because it wasn't up to scratch; but to have nothing at all to replace it?
I remember when first logging onto the game, exploration was one of the coolest things for me as a newbie. That sense of venturing into the unknown was a major part of what Star Trek was about for me (as someone who came on board with TOS).
I like the idea above about random elements - something like the old system, cleaned up, bug free, with some random elements in it, would be nice.
But I can see it's not going to happen, and I'm a sad bunny.
OK, what about having a special tag for a special type of Foundry mission that's put in the old sector space explore maps. They have more tightly controlled parameters like the old exploration missions, but Foundry authors can add the random element?
What I mean is, have all those old exploration maps (but cleaned of bugs), but let Foundry authors play around with the parameters more, and introduce limited amounts of story variety, surprise elements, etc.
(Like sometimes in those "scan minerals" exploration missions, I sometimes wished there would be some giant ice monster or something appearing every now and then, that type of thing - even simple things like that, but random. Or maybe authors could add talky diplomatic bits, like the ones where you have to sooth relations between a couple of factions.)
Surely letting Foundry authors use all those old maps wouldn't be too difficult? I don't think the download size matters much in this day and age, tbqh.
Ya know, I've thought about this alot and heres what I think may be the best answer. Not the answer you wanted to hear. A answer non the less.
At the moment I don't think that theres is a way to put exploration into the game that would please anyone. The exploration that Star trek deserves is not possible. Cryptic would have to scrap the entire game and start from scratch to build a exploration system worthy of the star trek name. You cannot take a already made game and after its finished incorperate a exploration system. You have to build the exploration system first (100% open world sandbox type galaxy that has no load times. A system where you could Blow up a starfleet vessel in federation space. Fly home nonstop with No load times or transistions. Get to the planet Q'onoS , Fly straight at the planet. Enter its atmosphere and Fly seemlessly down to a landing platform in the capital city. Lower your docking bridge, walk out and head straight to the capital for your next mission). Right now, using the development tools that star trek is made of will not make that happen. I have seen newer game trailers from this years E3 and a couple of games are using a engine that I believe could make the Exploration Galaxy that star trek is known for. For the moment tho I suggest we enjoy STO for what it is and not worry ourselves for what it isn't. Live long and proser, For you are and shall always be my friend.
OK, what about having a special tag for a special type of Foundry mission that's put in the old sector space explore maps. They have more tightly controlled parameters like the old exploration missions, but Foundry authors can add the random element?
If the convention sticks, we're naming missions stuff like "Explore Delta Volanis, Mission 1" and giving little description as far as what kind of exploration mission you'll get. I made "Explore Delta Volanis, Mission 1" and "Explore Delta Volanis, Mission 2." I'm waiting for somebody else to publish "Explore Delta Volanis, Mission 3" or "Explore the Rolar Nebula, Mission 1."
The removal of exploration and diplomacy, along with retooling the doff system to make it so you basically don't have to do anything but press start, has removed the one thing that made this game unique or at all true to Star Trek.
Let's face it, STO is mediocre compared to competition. As a shooter, it's bland. As a space sim, it's OK, but far too easy to hold your attention for long even on elite difficulty. TOR does ground combat better and EVE does space better.
For me and a lot of other players, the draw of STO has been the idea of replicating the feel of the shows. Exploring strange new worlds, seeking new life and civilizations, etc etc.
When I first began playing STO, I was overjoyed to learn that they had included star clusters to do some form of that.The addition of the doff system was a great step forward, as it helped immerse you in that universe. I spent days working up to First Contact missions, and was continually disappointed that I only got to do a grand total of one. But that was OK, because any half-decent studio would surely work to fix that bug.
Of course, they didn't. But at least I could still do the exploration missions, as imperfect as they were.
Then, this happens.
Yes, exploration was buggy. Yes, it was repetitive. But it was something at least. Getting rid of it makes zero sense, and no amount of fanboy wanking can change the fact that getting rid of star clusters achieves nothing. It didn't need to happen. Dumping an imperfect game aspect so you don't have to fix it is throwing the baby out with the bath water.
As it stands, axing one of the few features that made STO live up to its name has only made it another run of the mill MMO, and one that is entirely inferior to competition.
So I'm done. I only ever gave Cryptic money in the hope that the true Trek aspects of the game would be improved, not abandoned. Now this is just WoW with a thin ST veneer. If that changes, I'll gladly fork over more cash. As of now, I wish I had never given them a penny.
Foundry will not cut it. Sorry, but it will not, the foundry system is clumsy at best. Hopefully with all this feedback they will make it a priority.
In what way is the Foundry system "clumsy"?
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,597Community Moderator
edited July 2014
The only thing clumsy about it is the long load time for Foundry missions... which can't be helped. Other than that... we got some talented Foundry authors out there.
You may or may not enjoy the Foundry as an alternative. But, it is the only alternative you have and will have in the future, most likely.
The Foundy is NOT an "Alternative"...
It's the sorry excuse of content creation and a way to save money on actual content creators...
90% of the Foundry User Content is even WORSE than the now deleted Cluster Missions, it's inherently STATIC and NOT changing and not enough people will actually build "Exploration Missions" to begin with.
The Foundy is NOT an "Alternative"...
It's the sorry excuse of content creation and a way to save money on actual content creators...
90% of the Foundry User Content is even WORSE than the now deleted Cluster Missions, it's inherently STATIC and NOT changing and not enough people will actually build "Exploration Missions" to begin with.
so the "90%" is a number you pulled out of your behind, and they are "worse" because you say so, which is your opinion, not much else.
obviously the foundry is not an alternative for you, but i guess you can't deny that it may be an alternative for others.
Being negative about something getting changed or removed is one thing, but automaticaly assuming the replacement is ****ty because you think so is plain ignorant.
How many spotlight foundry missions have you played? Have you ever created a foundry mission yourself?
Even if 90% were worse than a repetitive and predictable mission, it would still leave you with well over 500 missions that have better quality. If you grinded through those, i'd predict that another 500 have been made in the meantime.
I'll say this, the foundry can not and should not be the replacement for exploration in STO. After all, when were the players hired as the new staff members for Cryptic? I never got the memo, when did all the staff there quit and leave game development up to all of us? Are any of us being paid?
The Foundy is NOT an "Alternative"...
It's the sorry excuse of content creation and a way to save money on actual content creators...
90% of the Foundry User Content is even WORSE than the now deleted Cluster Missions, it's inherently STATIC and NOT changing and not enough people will actually build "Exploration Missions" to begin with.
You are joking right?? the cluster missions "better" than foundry content?? are you high, dude??
Please, take a break and play some not so decent foundry missions. Even the worst of em are most of the times better than any cluster exploration mission. I dunno if you are trolling or wat.. but seriously, there is a BIG difference in quality from the dumbies exploration missions and the foundry ones.. foundries are far better, even the crappy ones lol.
So, for you a mission where you -> beam down to a planet, kill some mobs for 4-5 minutes, beam up is better than a foundry mission??
My suggestion for exploration is for the developers to pull their heads out of their butts, stop dumping the game development off on the players and get to work. If the star cluster thing was TRIBBLE, replace it with something better. One suggestion is make the sectors bigger, add more systems and planets such as the more iconic ones from the show like the homeworlds for some of the species of the game, and do missions for those. Maybe give each planet a couple of missions. In systems with more than 1 inhabited planet, toss in missions involving travel between them.
I'm aware of adjudicatorhawk's post where he gave the reasons for removing exploration from the game, and they're good enough reasons. He also mooted that the devs are looking at ways of keeping the exploration "feel" in the game, because it's an important iconic part of Star Trek.
I'm one of those who adjudicatorhawk mentioned, who kind of liked the system and used it from time to time as a change of pace, just to get that Star Trek feel. It was one of the few parts of the game (aside from some of the better dev-created missions and Foundry missions) where that Star Trek feel was genuinely possible.
I'd really, really, really like something with a similar "feel" to replace it - so can we have a discussion around it?
Personally, I'd like to see Cryptic have a stab at procedurally-generated content with more mission parameters. That's what the originally-proposed "Genesis" system seems to have been. Are Cryptic going to introduce a "New Genesis" (har har) system? I certainly hope so!
I dunno, but something to give us that exploration "feel" has to be in the game.
My suggestion for exploration is for the developers to pull their heads out of their butts, stop dumping the game development off on the players and get to work. If the star cluster thing was TRIBBLE, replace it with something better. One suggestion is make the sectors bigger, add more systems and planets such as the more iconic ones from the show like the homeworlds for some of the species of the game, and do missions for those. Maybe give each planet a couple of missions. In systems with more than 1 inhabited planet, toss in missions involving travel between them.
I wonder if people will eventually understand the point of the foundry to use in exploration purposes zz.
Again, and we will say this millions of times, until people understand it, cryptic will NEVER work on exploration missions. The point on the whole bunch of threads about this is that the foundry is the only solution to it. Because it depends on the players, not in cryptic. If we want a revamped exploration system, we, the players need to do it, we cant expect cryptic to do it, because they wont..
So, it's official, the only thing we will ever explore in this game are lockboxes (The naming of the lockbox announcement in the GNN is just cynic at this point )
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
So, it's official, the only thing we will ever explore in this game are lockboxes (The naming of the lockbox announcement in the GNN is just cynic at this point )
No, official is that you gonna explore mission maps to find crafting materials.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
The foundry is a great tool for creating content. Unfortunately, there is one important, simple thing it can't do compared to Cryptic missions.
Diverging storylines.
I can spawn some branching dialogue or enemy mobs depending on dialogue, and add optional objectives with interaction triggers, but in the end you still can't change which story parts the player does. Basically, you build a linear set of objectives that the player follows. With good trigger work it's possible to achieve some pretty amazing things, but ultimately it's still limited to thay linear storyline.
not enough people will actually build "Exploration Missions" to begin with.
Give it some time. The editor is borked right now, unless we choose to not use a single custom costume. 1 Foundry author can make one of these exploration missions in 24-48 hours. Compare that potential to the Cryptic team. It may take some time, but we can fill the clusters up much faster than the devs could, unless they put in more blender-made content.
Heck, give it a go yourself. With a week of learning, you could make your own mission.
Give it some time. The editor is borked right now, unless we choose to not use a single custom costume. 1 Foundry author can make one of these exploration missions in 24-48 hours. Compare that potential to the Cryptic team. It may take some time, but we can fill the clusters up much faster than the devs could, unless they put in more blender-made content.
Heck, give it a go yourself. With a week of learning, you could make your own mission.
You can fill up the clusters, but you still need that "Next" button.
You can fill up the clusters, but you still need that "Next" button.
This is true, but if we all stick to a mission naming convention, then you can still find every single mission by searching "Explore Delta Volanis, Mission 34" or "Explore Delta Volanis, Mission 37."
Yeah, it's clunky, and the bad search engine puts us at a disadvantage. But, at least we can try.
This is true, but if we all stick to a mission naming convention, then you can still find every single mission by searching "Explore Delta Volanis, Mission 34" or "Explore Delta Volanis, Mission 37."
Yeah, it's clunky, and the bad search engine puts us at a disadvantage. But, at least we can try.
But the whole point remains: Cryptic kills a major part of the game, something that was unique and deserved to be expanded and expects the community to create the content for themselves. Now randomly generated missions are replaced by x short, set missions by the community.
I personally do consider this behaviour unacceptable. And that has nothing to do with the quality of foundry missions - the whole thing is a farce and I am shocked how willingly so many people simply accept that. Again, mission quality, be it exploration missions or foundry missions, is not the issue here.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Comments
RnD and upgrade needs less RNG. Less lottery. Something has to change.
That is the hope that some of us are holding onto. Exploring unexplored space 5 light years away from Earth in the 25th Century is just as silly as no exploration in the Delta Quadrant that is 40,000 light years away from Earth or whatever that distance is. Of course, having exploration in the Delta Quadrant would make it an endgame activity which might cause some problems for those that want to level up through just exploration.
These are not the droids you are looking for.;)
Capt. Gecko stated today on the STOked podcast that the upcoming expansion WILL NOT have exploration content in it.
I still enjoy playing STO on and off because the basic mechanics are sound, I enjoy rep grinding, it has enough to do to keep me occupied in bursts, and replaying the stories occasionally, plus occasionally dipping into the Foundry is ok for variety. It always gets a bit boring after a month or two, but I do keep coming back to it when I get a hankering for a Star Trek vibe, and it's still the only space game in town that has good space AND ground combat.
But come on devs, there wasn't all that much wrong with exploration as it was, it was just buggy and didn't have enough variety. I could understand you yanking it because it wasn't up to scratch; but to have nothing at all to replace it?
I remember when first logging onto the game, exploration was one of the coolest things for me as a newbie. That sense of venturing into the unknown was a major part of what Star Trek was about for me (as someone who came on board with TOS).
I like the idea above about random elements - something like the old system, cleaned up, bug free, with some random elements in it, would be nice.
But I can see it's not going to happen, and I'm a sad bunny.
OK, what about having a special tag for a special type of Foundry mission that's put in the old sector space explore maps. They have more tightly controlled parameters like the old exploration missions, but Foundry authors can add the random element?
What I mean is, have all those old exploration maps (but cleaned of bugs), but let Foundry authors play around with the parameters more, and introduce limited amounts of story variety, surprise elements, etc.
(Like sometimes in those "scan minerals" exploration missions, I sometimes wished there would be some giant ice monster or something appearing every now and then, that type of thing - even simple things like that, but random. Or maybe authors could add talky diplomatic bits, like the ones where you have to sooth relations between a couple of factions.)
Surely letting Foundry authors use all those old maps wouldn't be too difficult? I don't think the download size matters much in this day and age, tbqh.
Geko confirmed today that the expansion has nothing to do with an exploration system or doing anything with exploration.
Edit: Ah, kind poster already pointed that out.
At the moment I don't think that theres is a way to put exploration into the game that would please anyone. The exploration that Star trek deserves is not possible. Cryptic would have to scrap the entire game and start from scratch to build a exploration system worthy of the star trek name. You cannot take a already made game and after its finished incorperate a exploration system. You have to build the exploration system first (100% open world sandbox type galaxy that has no load times. A system where you could Blow up a starfleet vessel in federation space. Fly home nonstop with No load times or transistions. Get to the planet Q'onoS , Fly straight at the planet. Enter its atmosphere and Fly seemlessly down to a landing platform in the capital city. Lower your docking bridge, walk out and head straight to the capital for your next mission). Right now, using the development tools that star trek is made of will not make that happen. I have seen newer game trailers from this years E3 and a couple of games are using a engine that I believe could make the Exploration Galaxy that star trek is known for. For the moment tho I suggest we enjoy STO for what it is and not worry ourselves for what it isn't. Live long and proser, For you are and shall always be my friend.
If the convention sticks, we're naming missions stuff like "Explore Delta Volanis, Mission 1" and giving little description as far as what kind of exploration mission you'll get. I made "Explore Delta Volanis, Mission 1" and "Explore Delta Volanis, Mission 2." I'm waiting for somebody else to publish "Explore Delta Volanis, Mission 3" or "Explore the Rolar Nebula, Mission 1."
Let's face it, STO is mediocre compared to competition. As a shooter, it's bland. As a space sim, it's OK, but far too easy to hold your attention for long even on elite difficulty. TOR does ground combat better and EVE does space better.
For me and a lot of other players, the draw of STO has been the idea of replicating the feel of the shows. Exploring strange new worlds, seeking new life and civilizations, etc etc.
When I first began playing STO, I was overjoyed to learn that they had included star clusters to do some form of that.The addition of the doff system was a great step forward, as it helped immerse you in that universe. I spent days working up to First Contact missions, and was continually disappointed that I only got to do a grand total of one. But that was OK, because any half-decent studio would surely work to fix that bug.
Of course, they didn't. But at least I could still do the exploration missions, as imperfect as they were.
Then, this happens.
Yes, exploration was buggy. Yes, it was repetitive. But it was something at least. Getting rid of it makes zero sense, and no amount of fanboy wanking can change the fact that getting rid of star clusters achieves nothing. It didn't need to happen. Dumping an imperfect game aspect so you don't have to fix it is throwing the baby out with the bath water.
As it stands, axing one of the few features that made STO live up to its name has only made it another run of the mill MMO, and one that is entirely inferior to competition.
So I'm done. I only ever gave Cryptic money in the hope that the true Trek aspects of the game would be improved, not abandoned. Now this is just WoW with a thin ST veneer. If that changes, I'll gladly fork over more cash. As of now, I wish I had never given them a penny.
In what way is the Foundry system "clumsy"?
The Foundy is NOT an "Alternative"...
It's the sorry excuse of content creation and a way to save money on actual content creators...
90% of the Foundry User Content is even WORSE than the now deleted Cluster Missions, it's inherently STATIC and NOT changing and not enough people will actually build "Exploration Missions" to begin with.
so the "90%" is a number you pulled out of your behind, and they are "worse" because you say so, which is your opinion, not much else.
obviously the foundry is not an alternative for you, but i guess you can't deny that it may be an alternative for others.
Being negative about something getting changed or removed is one thing, but automaticaly assuming the replacement is ****ty because you think so is plain ignorant.
How many spotlight foundry missions have you played? Have you ever created a foundry mission yourself?
Even if 90% were worse than a repetitive and predictable mission, it would still leave you with well over 500 missions that have better quality. If you grinded through those, i'd predict that another 500 have been made in the meantime.
You are joking right?? the cluster missions "better" than foundry content?? are you high, dude??
Please, take a break and play some not so decent foundry missions. Even the worst of em are most of the times better than any cluster exploration mission. I dunno if you are trolling or wat.. but seriously, there is a BIG difference in quality from the dumbies exploration missions and the foundry ones.. foundries are far better, even the crappy ones lol.
So, for you a mission where you -> beam down to a planet, kill some mobs for 4-5 minutes, beam up is better than a foundry mission??
Dude, wake up.
Short answer: More grinding...100% prediction:D
I wonder if people will eventually understand the point of the foundry to use in exploration purposes zz.
Again, and we will say this millions of times, until people understand it, cryptic will NEVER work on exploration missions. The point on the whole bunch of threads about this is that the foundry is the only solution to it. Because it depends on the players, not in cryptic. If we want a revamped exploration system, we, the players need to do it, we cant expect cryptic to do it, because they wont..
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No, official is that you gonna explore mission maps to find crafting materials.
Diverging storylines.
I can spawn some branching dialogue or enemy mobs depending on dialogue, and add optional objectives with interaction triggers, but in the end you still can't change which story parts the player does. Basically, you build a linear set of objectives that the player follows. With good trigger work it's possible to achieve some pretty amazing things, but ultimately it's still limited to thay linear storyline.
Give it some time. The editor is borked right now, unless we choose to not use a single custom costume. 1 Foundry author can make one of these exploration missions in 24-48 hours. Compare that potential to the Cryptic team. It may take some time, but we can fill the clusters up much faster than the devs could, unless they put in more blender-made content.
Heck, give it a go yourself. With a week of learning, you could make your own mission.
You can fill up the clusters, but you still need that "Next" button.
This is true, but if we all stick to a mission naming convention, then you can still find every single mission by searching "Explore Delta Volanis, Mission 34" or "Explore Delta Volanis, Mission 37."
Yeah, it's clunky, and the bad search engine puts us at a disadvantage. But, at least we can try.
But the whole point remains: Cryptic kills a major part of the game, something that was unique and deserved to be expanded and expects the community to create the content for themselves. Now randomly generated missions are replaced by x short, set missions by the community.
I personally do consider this behaviour unacceptable. And that has nothing to do with the quality of foundry missions - the whole thing is a farce and I am shocked how willingly so many people simply accept that. Again, mission quality, be it exploration missions or foundry missions, is not the issue here.
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