That's true - a good leader surrounds himself and makes use of expertise, providing organization and direction. Your tactical, science, medical, and assorted departments should be better at their respective specializations than you.
Picard captained the flagship during what was an ostensibly peaceful period to be a diplomat, and represent the Federation. With the Khitomer Accords, there were ongoing negotiations with the Klingons, and in 2364 (Season 1 of TNG) they hadn't heard from the Romulans in years. This was a time of development and diplomacy. Picard was obviously a competent enough tactician and strategist to captain the flagship, but that was not his specialization. Riker was the younger officer dispatched on away teams, a field commander given objectives.
Contrast this with Kirk, a starship captain during the Klingon-Federation Cold War, and the start of renewed hostilities with the Romulans.
^I think this has alot to deal with and inferiority complex with new tech vs. old tech. Much like the quote "don't bring a knife to a gun fight", Picard probably didn't think in that realm of why don't we just equip everyone with old projectile weaponry and kill all the Borg that way.
The greatest strategist in the world, usually are the ones that can adapt very quickly to unexpected battle situations with little resources, Picard was good but not great at Strategy. Riker was better, and so was Kirk; Picard was just really great at leading.
If I may paraphrase from another game. "We may be overlooking older, proven technologies in an effort to provide you with the state of art. Normally I wouldn't give much credence to the idea, but when an AI criticizes you for loving high-tech, it gives one pause to consider."
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
At Wolf 359, 39 Starships were lost and 11,000 people died, and the Cube ignored every attack apart from one via the Borg's own hive mind - the most catastrophic defeat in Federation history.
By the battle of Sector 001, a Federation Fleet could actually bring down a normal Cube, with not quite as many ships lost.
By STO, even an average player ship has the ability to comfortably 1 vs 1 a Cube
We're five years after Future Janeway's time in Endgame, where a single transphasic torpedo could destroy the Borg cube from either of those battles in a single hit.
That isn't what was said in First Contact. Picard specifically mentions the Borg Queen as being aboard the Borg ship that had assimilated him. We also see this via a very brief flashback.
If you listen to the conversation between the Borg Queen and Picard, you will have noticed this...
Borg Queen: What's wrong, Locutus? Isn't this familiar? Organic minds are such fragile things. How could you forget me so quickly? We were very close, you and I. You can still hear our song.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: Yes, I... I remember you. You were there all the time. But... that ship... and all the Borg on it were destroyed...
Borg Queen: You think in such three-dimensional terms. How small you've become.
She was not physically on the ship. As with Seven of Nine's experiences with the Borg, the Queen can enter the mind of any drone. She does not have to make any physical contact.
Borg Queen entered the mind of Locutus from a great distance.
Watch "Star Trek: Voyager" episode "Unimatrix Zero" to see how the Borg Queen works.
Now, here is a philosophical question that has never been explained...
Once a selected queen in chosen, does the mind of the individual get erased? Other words, the original conscious of the chosen host is suppressed, and then a program loads up the Queen's consciousness?
Therefore, unless you wipe out the main program, the one that contains the Queen's conscious, the Borg could indefinably rebuild the collective.
I have no idea why Cryptic don't reinstate the original STFs, surely they didn't delete the code? If they have the assets then use them, but then again I see very little sense in many of the decisions this company makes, I feel there is an underlying pressure on them from above to only increase the turnover of players, they don't seem to understand that it's the turnover of cash that is more important, ie quality over quantity.
Ah well, I've not posted in a while, I log in and always waste my time in kerrat then log out and watch ST instead, perhaps that says something.
Actually, the original STFs are still around, we just can't normally access them. Some players still have the orginal missions (though they don't play much anymore) and played them. And actually had fun. So all they have to do is flip the switch and get rid of the queue buttons in Gamma Orionis.
But the thing is, Cryptic won't. Like you said, the game is for the lower denominator now, and STO is just a queued theme park ride. It's long since been an MMO.
Actually, the original STFs are still around, we just can't normally access them. Some players still have the orginal missions (though they don't play much anymore) and played them. And actually had fun. So all they have to do is flip the switch and get rid of the queue buttons in Gamma Orionis.
But the thing is, Cryptic won't. Like you said, the game is for the lower denominator now, and STO is just a queued theme park ride. It's long since been an MMO.
any chance i can act like a spoilt brat stamping my feet up and down, crying to get the old stfs back? :P:D.
but yeah the old stfs sorted the wheat from the chaff, you had to have a good team. you dont see that these days. good old days.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
too many nostalgic players dont like the change that is there, its more then likely because to create a thread about debate just for a debate isnt exactly a reason to keep it open, especially one about a stick and a certain dead mammal. but i digress, lets not get into that closed can of worms that bluegeek shut down yesterday. its got no place on this thread just yet.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Its also more than likely that Starfleet would of quarantined Janeway's future tech some place quiet upon Voyagers return since they would likely be concerned with TRIBBLE with the time line any more.
its more likely that technology would of instantly went to the r&d labs for study for replication, those torpedoes that destroy cubes in 1 or 2 hits, its worth having a few on each starfleet ship incase of a borg encounter at some point.
as for the queen assimilating the armour tech, it was during the assimilation of the pathogen, her connection with all the drones would of been clogged up and with the elimination of the drones with that information it would of never gotten out to the rest of the collective. so a great deal of what the borg know would have been lost.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
At Wolf 359, 39 Starships were lost and 11,000 people died, and the Cube ignored every attack apart from one via the Borg's own hive mind - the most catastrophic defeat in Federation history.
By the battle of Sector 001, a Federation Fleet could actually bring down a normal Cube, with not quite as many ships lost.
By STO, even an average player ship has the ability to comfortably 1 vs 1 a Cube, and most of us on here could solo a Tactical Cube, with varying amounts of ease. And it isn't just the big stuff, even a remake of Archer's NX-01 could take on a Sphere and win now.
The Borg started off as one of the most dangerous opponents the Alpha Quadrant had seen, and now a team of 5 ships can destroy a Transwarp Gate Assembly, a Tac Cube, 2 normal Cubes and lots of Spheres in about a minute and a half.
A mere 90 seconds or even less!
In 43 years, the Borg have gone from only needing one Cube to assimilate the AQ, to needing a small fleet of their own to stop a single AQ ship. That's progress, and pretty soon we will need a new ultimate threat, because the Borg just aren't suitable now...
In the Battle of Sector 001, Starfleet was getting their asses handed to them. Losses were comparable to Wolf 359. The only difference was a battle of attrition rather than an all-out massacre. The fleet threw more ships at the cube, fought a running battle all the way from the Typhon Sector, and used swarm tactics rather than the classic two-on-two formations used at Wolf 359.
The result was heavy damage to the outer hull of the cube. Better than Wolf 359, but of no comfort to the several billion on Earth (of which the cube had reached, after punching through Starfleet's defenses).
If it weren't for Picard's timely arrival and connection to the Collective, Starfleet would have probably lost Earth.
As for ground actions, the Borg of "First Contact" were far deadlier and menacing than they were in "The Next Generation", especially with their new "drive-thru assimilation" for that busy drone on the go. :P
Personally, I simply chalk the changes from "The Next Generation" to "First Contact" as the Borg adapting and improving their capabilities.
I will agree, however, that "Voyager" marginalized the Borg into mustache twirling villains and complete tards
As for STO, allowances have to be made for gameplay. However, the Borg are more an annoyance, with their ability spam and invisi-torps, than a tough opponent for those prepared. I would like to see some instances where the Borg are a REAL challenge to take on.
The in-game lore established that the Borg were almost completely wiped out after Janeway's shenanigans in Voyager. The Borg we see today are not the Borg we saw in the Next Generation, just like the Rome of the late 3rd century CE was not the Rome of Julius Caesar.
That said, I think it would be cool to update the Borg to make them a threat again. After a few years of being whooped on, they have adapted and start to hit back in powerful new ways.
But of course, go play Hive Space, or any Borg ground STF and you will see that they can still pose a challenge. Just not the same level of challenge as they once did.
I asked on the recent Priority One livestream with Al Rivera
"Is there going to be a nightmare mode for the Borg STFs as currently the space ones are so easy, ISE can be done in minutes, the Borg should not be such a walkover like they are now?"
It was not answered at all - I asked the question twice in 10 minutes - , there was only 70 people online at the time so it was not swamped with questions
The in-game lore established that the Borg were almost completely wiped out after Janeway's shenanigans in Voyager. The Borg we see today are not the Borg we saw in the Next Generation, just like the Rome of the late 3rd century CE was not the Rome of Julius Caesar.
That said, I think it would be cool to update the Borg to make them a threat again. After a few years of being whooped on, they have adapted and start to hit back in powerful new ways.
But of course, go play Hive Space, or any Borg ground STF and you will see that they can still pose a challenge. Just not the same level of challenge as they once did.
i havent heard that before, what happened was that the primary unimatrix was destroyed along with one major transwarp hub, trillions of drones killed (janeway as ever the reckless one), it was stated beforehand that the collective have around half a dozen of these hubs around the galaxy and having thousands if not more cubes and spheres floating around, with efforts to completely eradicate the virus which is likely, the borg just adapted to the loss and created a new queen, business as usual resumed.
I asked on the recent Priority One livestream with Al Rivera
"Is there going to be a nightmare mode for the Borg STFs as currently the space ones are so easy, ISE can be done in minutes, the Borg should not be such a walkover like they are now?"
It was not answered at all - I asked the question twice in 10 minutes - , there was only 70 people online at the time so it was not swamped with questions
you would of never got an answer, if you had asked me that day i would say there isnt a chance in hell they would give up such imformation.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
The Borg probably could use a buff. Of course, they can already do that instant shield drain thing, which sucks, but...
Well, take the mission "Assimilation" as an example. The Undine have always been pretty good at killing Borg, but the newly-revamped Undine ships completely wipe the floor with them. It's actually kind of pathetic, in a way.
This makes absolutely zero sense. The Queen was still able to communicate with the rest of the Collective since she was able to guide ships toward Voyager, and the sphere was able to severely damage, if not destroy the armor.
this ^^^ was wait for someone to say it when she said "You think in such three-dimensional terms" she is right and we do i think of the Queen more like a virus
this ^^^ was wait for someone to say it when she said "You think in such three-dimensional terms" she is right and we do i think of the Queen more like a virus
But that still suggests that there is a leading force of some kind within the collective. And that directly contradicts the idea of having a hive mind. A hive mind means that there is no leader. It means that the Borg, in essence, is a single being. Drones aren't automatons following orders, every decision a drone makes is made by all the drones simultaneously, acting as a single being. A drone is an individual being (proven by hugh) but it is immedeatly absorbed into the hivemind which quells individual thoughts by being one single thought of trillions of beings. Locutus was an experiment, a single spokesperson with unique traits for the sake of leading the negotiations for the surrender of the Federation (yes, surrender. Of course, they state was "join us or be destroyed" but not "we assimilate by force" - the Borg seek technology, assimilation of beings was completely optional, as opposed to VOY Borg with their hunger for brains...) for the collective in a way that humans can follow, since the concept of a working hive mind is an alien one not easily grasped - which is what the writers of First Contact thought as well which is why they rewrote the Borg to be easier to understand by a broad audience to the point of ridiculousness.
If any, I could accept an explanation like the creation of Locutus and the Hugh incident somehow created a being which could come out above the hive like Lore tried with the renegade Borg. It would be a faaaar fetch and I would cringe at it, but it would at least be some kind of semi plausible explanation - but that's not what they did. They retconned TNG Borg away, basically. And that hurts.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
At Wolf 359, 39 Starships were lost and 11,000 people died, and the Cube ignored every attack apart from one via the Borg's own hive mind - the most catastrophic defeat in Federation history.
By the battle of Sector 001, a Federation Fleet could actually bring down a normal Cube, with not quite as many ships lost.
By STO, even an average player ship has the ability to comfortably 1 vs 1 a Cube, and most of us on here could solo a Tactical Cube, with varying amounts of ease. And it isn't just the big stuff, even a remake of Archer's NX-01 could take on a Sphere and win now.
The Borg started off as one of the most dangerous opponents the Alpha Quadrant had seen, and now a team of 5 ships can destroy a Transwarp Gate Assembly, a Tac Cube, 2 normal Cubes and lots of Spheres in about a minute and a half.
A mere 90 seconds or even less!
In 43 years, the Borg have gone from only needing one Cube to assimilate the AQ, to needing a small fleet of their own to stop a single AQ ship. That's progress, and pretty soon we will need a new ultimate threat, because the Borg just aren't suitable now...
Heh, I was over at a friend's house last night and I fired up STO on my laptop while everyone else was getting ready to go out. He'd never seen STO before, and saw me and my fleet go into CSE and immediately started nerd raging that 5 dudes could take on not one but three cubes at once (split up into groups of two or even solo per cube) when Wolf 359 and Sector 001 were slaughter houses. I told him "Voyager blah blah Janeway blah blah 2409 better tech blah blah" but he was still really grumpy about it. :P
Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
To be honest I noticed something I found strange watching First Contact the other night, in that scene where the Borg chase Pickard and Lily into the holo-deck he uses a tommy gun to kill the Borg following him.
That's when it hit me that when he used a projectile weapon their shields didn't adapt, why the heck didn't he just replicate a ton of projectile weapons and give them to the crew instead of abandoning ship?
Maybe it's along those lines, we just figured out how to fight them better now
Comments
Picard captained the flagship during what was an ostensibly peaceful period to be a diplomat, and represent the Federation. With the Khitomer Accords, there were ongoing negotiations with the Klingons, and in 2364 (Season 1 of TNG) they hadn't heard from the Romulans in years. This was a time of development and diplomacy. Picard was obviously a competent enough tactician and strategist to captain the flagship, but that was not his specialization. Riker was the younger officer dispatched on away teams, a field commander given objectives.
Contrast this with Kirk, a starship captain during the Klingon-Federation Cold War, and the start of renewed hostilities with the Romulans.
If I may paraphrase from another game. "We may be overlooking older, proven technologies in an effort to provide you with the state of art. Normally I wouldn't give much credence to the idea, but when an AI criticizes you for loving high-tech, it gives one pause to consider."
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
We're five years after Future Janeway's time in Endgame, where a single transphasic torpedo could destroy the Borg cube from either of those battles in a single hit.
She was not physically on the ship. As with Seven of Nine's experiences with the Borg, the Queen can enter the mind of any drone. She does not have to make any physical contact.
Borg Queen entered the mind of Locutus from a great distance.
Watch "Star Trek: Voyager" episode "Unimatrix Zero" to see how the Borg Queen works.
Now, here is a philosophical question that has never been explained...
Once a selected queen in chosen, does the mind of the individual get erased? Other words, the original conscious of the chosen host is suppressed, and then a program loads up the Queen's consciousness?
Therefore, unless you wipe out the main program, the one that contains the Queen's conscious, the Borg could indefinably rebuild the collective.
Actually, the original STFs are still around, we just can't normally access them. Some players still have the orginal missions (though they don't play much anymore) and played them. And actually had fun. So all they have to do is flip the switch and get rid of the queue buttons in Gamma Orionis.
But the thing is, Cryptic won't. Like you said, the game is for the lower denominator now, and STO is just a queued theme park ride. It's long since been an MMO.
any chance i can act like a spoilt brat stamping my feet up and down, crying to get the old stfs back? :P:D.
but yeah the old stfs sorted the wheat from the chaff, you had to have a good team. you dont see that these days. good old days.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Tried that, didn't work. :P
I guess they don't want us to "suffer" like in the old days. :rolleyes:
it more than likely end up on the FCT thread
system Lord Baal is dead
too bad :P.
too many nostalgic players dont like the change that is there, its more then likely because to create a thread about debate just for a debate isnt exactly a reason to keep it open, especially one about a stick and a certain dead mammal. but i digress, lets not get into that closed can of worms that bluegeek shut down yesterday. its got no place on this thread just yet.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
as for the queen assimilating the armour tech, it was during the assimilation of the pathogen, her connection with all the drones would of been clogged up and with the elimination of the drones with that information it would of never gotten out to the rest of the collective. so a great deal of what the borg know would have been lost.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
In the Battle of Sector 001, Starfleet was getting their asses handed to them. Losses were comparable to Wolf 359. The only difference was a battle of attrition rather than an all-out massacre. The fleet threw more ships at the cube, fought a running battle all the way from the Typhon Sector, and used swarm tactics rather than the classic two-on-two formations used at Wolf 359.
The result was heavy damage to the outer hull of the cube. Better than Wolf 359, but of no comfort to the several billion on Earth (of which the cube had reached, after punching through Starfleet's defenses).
If it weren't for Picard's timely arrival and connection to the Collective, Starfleet would have probably lost Earth.
As for ground actions, the Borg of "First Contact" were far deadlier and menacing than they were in "The Next Generation", especially with their new "drive-thru assimilation" for that busy drone on the go. :P
Personally, I simply chalk the changes from "The Next Generation" to "First Contact" as the Borg adapting and improving their capabilities.
I will agree, however, that "Voyager" marginalized the Borg into mustache twirling villains and complete tards
As for STO, allowances have to be made for gameplay. However, the Borg are more an annoyance, with their ability spam and invisi-torps, than a tough opponent for those prepared. I would like to see some instances where the Borg are a REAL challenge to take on.
Try doing Infected with just a tier 1 connie...
pretty hard when they can 1 shot you, lol
That said, I think it would be cool to update the Borg to make them a threat again. After a few years of being whooped on, they have adapted and start to hit back in powerful new ways.
But of course, go play Hive Space, or any Borg ground STF and you will see that they can still pose a challenge. Just not the same level of challenge as they once did.
"Is there going to be a nightmare mode for the Borg STFs as currently the space ones are so easy, ISE can be done in minutes, the Borg should not be such a walkover like they are now?"
It was not answered at all - I asked the question twice in 10 minutes - , there was only 70 people online at the time so it was not swamped with questions
i havent heard that before, what happened was that the primary unimatrix was destroyed along with one major transwarp hub, trillions of drones killed (janeway as ever the reckless one), it was stated beforehand that the collective have around half a dozen of these hubs around the galaxy and having thousands if not more cubes and spheres floating around, with efforts to completely eradicate the virus which is likely, the borg just adapted to the loss and created a new queen, business as usual resumed.
you would of never got an answer, if you had asked me that day i would say there isnt a chance in hell they would give up such imformation.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Well, take the mission "Assimilation" as an example. The Undine have always been pretty good at killing Borg, but the newly-revamped Undine ships completely wipe the floor with them. It's actually kind of pathetic, in a way.
this ^^^ was wait for someone to say it
system Lord Baal is dead
But that still suggests that there is a leading force of some kind within the collective. And that directly contradicts the idea of having a hive mind. A hive mind means that there is no leader. It means that the Borg, in essence, is a single being. Drones aren't automatons following orders, every decision a drone makes is made by all the drones simultaneously, acting as a single being. A drone is an individual being (proven by hugh) but it is immedeatly absorbed into the hivemind which quells individual thoughts by being one single thought of trillions of beings. Locutus was an experiment, a single spokesperson with unique traits for the sake of leading the negotiations for the surrender of the Federation (yes, surrender. Of course, they state was "join us or be destroyed" but not "we assimilate by force" - the Borg seek technology, assimilation of beings was completely optional, as opposed to VOY Borg with their hunger for brains...) for the collective in a way that humans can follow, since the concept of a working hive mind is an alien one not easily grasped - which is what the writers of First Contact thought as well which is why they rewrote the Borg to be easier to understand by a broad audience to the point of ridiculousness.
If any, I could accept an explanation like the creation of Locutus and the Hugh incident somehow created a being which could come out above the hive like Lore tried with the renegade Borg. It would be a faaaar fetch and I would cringe at it, but it would at least be some kind of semi plausible explanation - but that's not what they did. They retconned TNG Borg away, basically. And that hurts.
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Heh, I was over at a friend's house last night and I fired up STO on my laptop while everyone else was getting ready to go out. He'd never seen STO before, and saw me and my fleet go into CSE and immediately started nerd raging that 5 dudes could take on not one but three cubes at once (split up into groups of two or even solo per cube) when Wolf 359 and Sector 001 were slaughter houses. I told him "Voyager blah blah Janeway blah blah 2409 better tech blah blah" but he was still really grumpy about it. :P
Joined January 2009
Bad writing?