But if we really have improved that much - why do we be bother about a bunch of Dominion ships that are also over 30 years old and were stuck in a wormhole for a while? (Of course, gameplay and story don't match there at all. I easily blew up those Dominion ships there, where as the story suggested we needed to retreat...)
Yes, I didn't like having to retreat either then, that battle was our victory if Kurland had actually had a backbone.
Bahaha, this thread...
Cryptic dropped the ball with the borg. For those that say the Federation have advanced, yes that's true.
But remember: The borg assimilate entire cultures. They take the technology that is better/stronger than what they have and ignore the rest. With that in mind, they've probably managed to assimilate hundreds of thousands of cultures in thousands of years. Take the best technology from all of them and you become something no one wants to mess with.
The Federation could never catch up with them after existing for a fraction of the time the borg have. The borg's only weakness are deserters because they know the borgs weaknesses. But even then, that is only a temporary advantage because they change after each culture is assimilated.
Cryptic should have invented smaller borg ships to go with the spheres and probes and have a cube as a boss target.
Beta Antares Shipyards advanced Starship development project.
CLASSIFIED
Would you just leave nearly 3000 ships roaming around in your space?
How much of my space are we talking? Space is pretty big. I bet I could leave em out there and not even notice them among the rest of the stuff floating around in my space.
But if we really have improved that much - why do we be bother about a bunch of Dominion ships that are also over 30 years old and were stuck in a wormhole for a while? (Of course, gameplay and story don't match there at all. I easily blew up those Dominion ships there, where as the story suggested we needed to retreat...)
Let's see. DS9 is still an old cardassian mining platform (refining really but still) that was refit with what little tech could be made to interface with original systems. So even the tiny number of ships we see are a threat to it. A Connie still has the fire power to wreck a civilization. Weapon power went up for new ships the other stuff did not get weaker. So they are still a threat.
Best example I can give is that one Connie versus a Bortasque gets a swatted Connie. Now make that 100 Connies to the Bort and the picture changes.
The alpha quadrant is not on the footing to face the Jem'hadar's sudden reappearance. They are facing the Romulan empire remnant, fighting between the federation and the Klingon empire, fighting the borg. This new threat and they can't divert enough ships to overcome the numbers advantage without severely weakening another front. That is the issue of multi-front wars. They spread you thin.
So the mission says you punched a hole in the lines. Yep you did, handily too. But you are one of a handful of ships. Communications are down and you are carrying ambassadors and civilian refugees. Your duty is to fall back and report to your higher commands what is occurring. Then you have to contain this threat and neutralize it with the least amount of resources you can so as o not jeopardize other missions. If Elerise realized the technological improvements that have occurred, she will take hostage people she needs to improve her forces. Suddenly she is evening the firepower and gaining real advantage with her numbers. So she and her jem hadar have to be handled swiftly to boot.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
The Federation could never catch up with them after existing for a fraction of the time the borg have.
Actually, the Federation would have caught up with them eventually. Guinan states that we weren't supposed to encounter the Borg yet, that right now we're just raw materials to them. That implies that if we had been allowed to naturally expand to Delta (if we hadn't been thrown there by Q), we would have been on par with the Borg.
Actually, the Federation would have caught up with them eventually. Guinan states that we weren't supposed to encounter the Borg yet, that right now we're just raw materials to them. That implies that if we had been allowed to naturally expand to Delta (if we hadn't been thrown there by Q), we would have been on par with the Borg.
The gap did close significantly between Wolf 359 and the battle of sector 001. 359 was a disaster for Starfleet which incurred massive losses of both manpower and ships.
By the time of the battle of sector 001 Starfleet while suffering significent losses once again managed to do heavy damage to the Borg cube even without the intervention of Picard and the Enterprise E. This was also during the Dominion war when Starfleet and the Klingons were both struggling against the Dominion.
Let's see. DS9 is still an old cardassian mining platform (refining really but still) that was refit with what little tech could be made to interface with original systems. So even the tiny number of ships we see are a threat to it. A Connie still has the fire power to wreck a civilization. Weapon power went up for new ships the other stuff did not get weaker. So they are still a threat.
Best example I can give is that one Connie versus a Bortasque gets a swatted Connie. Now make that 100 Connies to the Bort and the picture changes.
The alpha quadrant is not on the footing to face the Jem'hadar's sudden reappearance. They are facing the Romulan empire remnant, fighting between the federation and the Klingon empire, fighting the borg. This new threat and they can't divert enough ships to overcome the numbers advantage without severely weakening another front. That is the issue of multi-front wars. They spread you thin.
So the mission says you punched a hole in the lines. Yep you did, handily too. But you are one of a handful of ships. Communications are down and you are carrying ambassadors and civilian refugees. Your duty is to fall back and report to your higher commands what is occurring. Then you have to contain this threat and neutralize it with the least amount of resources you can so as o not jeopardize other missions. If Elerise realized the technological improvements that have occurred, she will take hostage people she needs to improve her forces. Suddenly she is evening the firepower and gaining real advantage with her numbers. So she and her jem hadar have to be handled swiftly to boot.
a borg space zone to drain the queues dry then replace the current sloggy task force missions with updated versions.
though imo, the reason the stfs are disproportionately popular is the effort needed to get the rewards they offer.
I think so, too. And I bet that the Cryptic team dislikes that, but they still don't dare to change it. (Or maybe it just hasn't come up to the point). It's definitely hurting other content options - why bother with an Undine Queued mission if you can get your marks and dilithium much faster with Infected. THe only reason to do Undine queued missions is to get the counter-command marks - but if you have maxed out your rep and have the gear you want, you do Infected again.
I think a Borg Space Zone would be great. The Battlezones in general are my favourite content right now (though now that there is a space zone, I don't really feel like doing the Voth Ground Zone anymore) .
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Let's see. DS9 is still an old cardassian mining platform (refining really but still) that was refit with what little tech could be made to interface with original systems. So even the tiny number of ships we see are a threat to it. A Connie still has the fire power to wreck a civilization. Weapon power went up for new ships the other stuff did not get weaker. So they are still a threat.
Best example I can give is that one Connie versus a Bortasque gets a swatted Connie. Now make that 100 Connies to the Bort and the picture changes.
The alpha quadrant is not on the footing to face the Jem'hadar's sudden reappearance. They are facing the Romulan empire remnant, fighting between the federation and the Klingon empire, fighting the borg. This new threat and they can't divert enough ships to overcome the numbers advantage without severely weakening another front. That is the issue of multi-front wars. They spread you thin.
So the mission says you punched a hole in the lines. Yep you did, handily too. But you are one of a handful of ships. Communications are down and you are carrying ambassadors and civilian refugees. Your duty is to fall back and report to your higher commands what is occurring. Then you have to contain this threat and neutralize it with the least amount of resources you can so as o not jeopardize other missions. If Elerise realized the technological improvements that have occurred, she will take hostage people she needs to improve her forces. Suddenly she is evening the firepower and gaining real advantage with her numbers. So she and her jem hadar have to be handled swiftly to boot.
There is only one reason DS9 had to be defended........Kurland Here!
The Quote: "Your contact with the Borg came long before it should. When you're ready, it might be possible to establish a relationship with them, but now -- now, you are only raw material to them."
If the Borg and Federation developed at the same rates, then the Federation would never be more than raw materials. The clear implication is that the Federation and the Borg advance at different rates, otherwise the Federation would never be ready to establish a relationship with the Borg.
You could argue that Guinan is wrong, but the implication from her statement is perfectly clear - there would have been a time when the Federation was ready, and not considered raw material.
At Wolf 359, 39 Starships were lost and 11,000 people died, and the Cube ignored every attack apart from one via the Borg's own hive mind - the most catastrophic defeat in Federation history.
By the battle of Sector 001, a Federation Fleet could actually bring down a normal Cube, with not quite as many ships lost.
By STO, even an average player ship has the ability to comfortably 1 vs 1 a Cube, and most of us on here could solo a Tactical Cube, with varying amounts of ease. And it isn't just the big stuff, even a remake of Archer's NX-01 could take on a Sphere and win now.
The Borg started off as one of the most dangerous opponents the Alpha Quadrant had seen, and now a team of 5 ships can destroy a Transwarp Gate Assembly, a Tac Cube, 2 normal Cubes and lots of Spheres in about a minute and a half.
A mere 90 seconds or even less!
In 43 years, the Borg have gone from only needing one Cube to assimilate the AQ, to needing a small fleet of their own to stop a single AQ ship. That's progress, and pretty soon we will need a new ultimate threat, because the Borg just aren't suitable now...
True, but they can't leave the Borg out of the game. Also, they have to make them defeatable. And depending on where you encounter them, their toughness varies. What would you suggest? Increasing the shields and hit points for all Borg vessels regardless of what setting you encounter them would probably work to an extent. Certainly would make evry encounter that much harder.
True, but they can't leave the Borg out of the game. Also, they have to make them defeatable. And depending on where you encounter them, their toughness varies. What would you suggest? Increasing the shields and hit points for all Borg vessels regardless of what setting you encounter them would probably work to an extent. Certainly would make evry encounter that much harder.
I'm not saying the Borg should or even could be as relatively powerful they were back at Wolf 359, but I am saying it is strange to find the Borg, enemies who once needed just one ship to conquer the Alpha Quadrant, now being so relatively weak as have one of these ships be easily solo-able by a single ship today.
To me, it makes sense - but it is strange. This is as much a commentary on how much we've improved, as it is about how far the mighty are fallen.
At Wolf 359, 39 Starships were lost and 11,000 people died, and the Cube ignored every attack apart from one via the Borg's own hive mind - the most catastrophic defeat in Federation history.
By the battle of Sector 001, a Federation Fleet could actually bring down a normal Cube, with not quite as many ships lost.
By STO, even an average player ship has the ability to comfortably 1 vs 1 a Cube, and most of us on here could solo a Tactical Cube, with varying amounts of ease. And it isn't just the big stuff, even a remake of Archer's NX-01 could take on a Sphere and win now.
The Borg started off as one of the most dangerous opponents the Alpha Quadrant had seen, and now a team of 5 ships can destroy a Transwarp Gate Assembly, a Tac Cube, 2 normal Cubes and lots of Spheres in about a minute and a half.
A mere 90 seconds or even less!
In 43 years, the Borg have gone from only needing one Cube to assimilate the AQ, to needing a small fleet of their own to stop a single AQ ship. That's progress, and pretty soon we will need a new ultimate threat, because the Borg just aren't suitable now...
It's a long term strategy of the Borg to soften us. They have seen that we adapt and make ourselves stronger, so if they are weaker, we don't become stronger.
When they are truly ready to take over they bring in the tougher cubes with the more powerful weapons.
Otherwise, it's the careful balance of NPC strength and individual player satisfaction. Don't make the NPC too tough otherwise players will complain too much or not want to play. Doesn't it feel good to be so powerful that you can solo a cube?
Star Trek Battles Channel - Play Star Trek like they did in the series!Avatar: pinterest-com/pin/14003448816884219Are you sure it isn't time for a "colorful metaphor"? --Spock in 'The Voyage Home' SCE ADVISORY NOTICE: Improper Impulse Engine maintenance can result in REAR THRUSTER LEAKAGE. ALWAYS have your work inspected by another qualified officer.
The Borg in their earlier appearances were freaking scary. They were powerful, unfathomable, and relentless. They remain the best enemies to come out of any Trek series post TOS. People want scarier, more powerful Borg not because of nostalgia for TNG but because when handled right they're just plain awesome. They're like the Terminator crossed with Jason Voorhees. They can't be reasoned with, they can't be bargained with, and they will not stop ever until you are dead (or assimilated, which is much the same).
Unfortunately, that concept/portrayal was nerfed after a few appearance, and the Borg became anthropomorphous. Frankly, the later writers failed to properly grasp the inhuman, unrelatable, truly alien nature of the Borg, and gave them human drives, thought patterns, and fanservice.
This, again, is a matter of good writing. The Borg are very well designed badguys capable of instilling fear in the audience. That's a good thing that should not be wasted turning them into easy mooks. Group the enemies by difficulty tiers, with Gorn and Orions as lower level foes that Starfleet overmatches, like law enforcement against criminals. Let us graduate to the Klingon as evenly matched foes who grudgingly work with us, and Romulans fewer but more dangerous foes. All along, give us hints of scarier big bads to come, and save the Borg for the serious threats you only face when you're strong enough --and even then you're over your head against them in every encounter and you have to bust your TRIBBLE to score even temporary victories which are little more than setbacks to the Collective.
I don't know if you noticed but this is exactly, exactly the way STO was structured when it debuted. But the nature of the beast is that players level and eventually outpaced the poor Borg.
If you want the deck to be shuffled and the Borg to be placed back on top it might eventually happen, but I imagine not for awhile as it would be seen to be repetitive.
Am I really the only person who can see it? Just how gorgeously genius, if unintentional, this turn of events is?
You can taste the irony in the air. The Borg are the great adapters...except that they can't adapt. They can't think creatively, and as a result, they're stagnant. When they first attacked, they had the advantage, because they were far more powerful than anything else in the area. But the Collective is a one-trick pony. It can't assimilate anything to improve itself, because if someone has better tech than it does, it'll probably use that tech to keep from being assimilated.
It's just delicious. And it's an expression of why Borg collectivism fails: when you rely on taking things from your enemies rather than making them yourself, you're vulnerable to anyone who has the courage to oppose you.
Beyond that, the Borg have just been done to death. I think there are ways to continue to handle them well, but it'll require a different method than just "the Borg are invading and they're invincible and we have to do technobabble to beat them". There are a few potential approaches, but I'd recommend that all are used:
- A focus on the "Borg are the Federation, but more honest" take.
- An examination of the nature of the Collective. Is it truly a collective entity, or is that just a facade for the Queen's domain?
- Have us actually figure out where they came from, and resolve their storyline while leaving them potentially open for further developments. Maybe even have Borg dynasties, because Ascended Memes are fun.
- Contrast the Borg with the Iconians as order versus chaos. The Borg are, of course, a sort of force of ultimate order. While the Iconians don't seem to be themselves particularly chaotic, their current methods certainly are. The Borg and the Dominion were the last two great threats to the Alpha Quadrant, and both were of order. But the Iconians are new in that they are of chaos. Use that contrast.
- Use an idea that I've toyed with for some time: the Collective as an ally. See, here's the thing: the Borg are actually really stupid. Even discounting the fact that the Collective doesn't seem to communicate within itself very well (the Collective at large isn't aware of things that certain drones know, and vessels engaging the enemy don't appear to have the benefit of knowledge that the Queen holds), their approach is incredibly stupid. Remember in "Dark Frontier", where Seven sarcastically suggests to the Queen that she open with her whole perfection spiel instead of "resistance is futile"? That would be a far more logical approach, and I'm going to start a new paragraph now, because this is turning into a wall of text.
Anyway. See, Seven herself was rehabilitated from dronehood with relative ease, considering when she was assimilated. So, what if the Borg just went through diplomatic channels instead? The Federation get to not have the Borg threat and have a lot of extra military might allied with their cause, as well as lots o' technology, and the Borg get access to Federation technology, and volunteers for temporary assimilation.
This is what I'm getting at with Seven's situation. I think the assimilation process could easily be adapted to be more temporary. That way, Federation citizens could just basically volunteer for an exchange program with the Collective. And if once their time is up they find that they like being in the Collective, they can stay. There's just not much point in the Collective doing things by force, especially now that they're horribly outmatched by the rest of the galaxy.
I feel like this would make a great reveal for a pilot episode of a new show. The hero ship is fighting some enemy force (a low-key one, in the vein of Klingons or someone. Not a huge threat, just the usual adversaries), and then a Borg fleet warps in...only to start attacking the enemy, and helping out the protagonists. Obviously, this would have to be explained later, but.
I dunno. I just think that the Borg had their time, just like all the other foes in Trek. Like someone else said, remember when the Klingons and Romulans were a mysterious and threatening force? The Iconians are now the Lovecraftian, terrifying enemy. The war against the Borg is a border skirmish.
The pseudo-unique nature of the Borg does NOT exempt them from the rules of Trek antagonists. They're not even that unique, really. They're a hive mind. That's been done plenty of times before the Borg. Come on. Space zombies? Space zombies. They're supposed to be the biggest enemy in the history of Trek?
The Borg were a threat in the 2360s because very little was known about them. With so few distinct Borg attacks with any survivors between 2365 and 2373 that left behind any useable information to formulate effective defenses and counter-offensive technologies, Starfleet was struggling to maintain the illusion that the Federation was relatively safe. The fact was that they weren't even close to safe.
Then Janeway happened.
She and her magic starship managed to chill out with a Borg ship for a few weeks, and even come home with their own pet Borg and some toys to reverse-engineer. Kind of that "I got your gun" moment from JJTrek.
The Borg is capable of adapting, but as we've seen in the game, Starfleet has developed a method of using the Borg's own technology against them to keep those "bionic zombies" from creating a completely effective defense in return.
Considering Starfleet engineers have a reputation for being able to "turn rocks into replicators", I'd be disappointed if we COULDN'T start solo'ing cubes at endgame. Nothing like that artificial high you get from cracking a ship in half that's 20 times your size.
yes it can, i can come up with half a dozen scenarios where the enemy kicks the players TRIBBLE resulting in strategically loss, but they still completed the set goals.
If you don't mind a reference to an MMO that is apparently not to be named:
There was a dungeon where the idea was you snuck in the back of a giant fortress to murder the Big Bad. You get there and fight him a bit and learn pretty quickly that you're not strong enough, and he'll kill you. The rest of the map is you fleeing this guy. Ideally you do get away, but there is no way to kill the Big Bad in that scenario.
So I guess my point is, whether you like WoW or not, that is an example of a rock solid MMO -- the MMO that pretty much wrote the book on MMO'ing-- designing a scenario where the party does not win, and in fact barely escapes.
So it's a totally plausible concept. Long as players get their loot, an STF where the team essentially loses would be fine. I would actually like to see something like this, as until now STO portrays you as essentially steamrolling every foe you come across.
She and her magic starship managed to chill out with a Borg ship for a few weeks, and even come home with their own pet Borg and some toys to reverse-engineer. Kind of that "I got your gun" moment from JJTrek.
The Borg is capable of adapting, but as we've seen in the game, Starfleet has developed a method of using the Borg's own technology against them to keep those "bionic zombies" from creating a completely effective defense in return.
...and, to think 'USS Voyager' was a tiny science ship.
When Janeway got promoted to Admiral, I felt as if someone at Paramount nuked a fridge.
To be honest I noticed something I found strange watching First Contact the other night, in that scene where the Borg chase Pickard and Lily into the holo-deck he uses a tommy gun to kill the Borg following him.
That's when it hit me that when he used a projectile weapon their shields didn't adapt, why the heck didn't he just replicate a ton of projectile weapons and give them to the crew instead of abandoning ship?
Maybe it's along those lines, we just figured out how to fight them better now
I just read the "Star Trek: TNG Series" novels "Resistance" and "Before Dishonor'. If you want to talk about crazy Borg logic, the Borg in those books 'absorb' whole ships and planets within seconds. Borg Janeway rammed her Borg cube into starships, and she was able to 'absorb' them into the cube's framework.
My roflcopter sent sub-orbital. Luckily no one on Voyager's writing team wanted to pull a Lucas.
which totally insane thing though. from making darth vader a emo teenage to killing off a character name anakin because he was worried people may get them confused. not to mention changing things to fit his screws ups. it still makes me sad a cartoon was more canon then the thrawn trilogy. and my older copy of empire strikes back broke...
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
Regardless of if it doesn't work for an MMO, we weren't talking about the concept in that limited a context (or at least I wasn't). The Borg were changed from their original concept long before STO started development in 2004 or 2008, depending on how you trace STO's history.
Don't get me wrong, I loved First Contact (1996) as a movie, but it really reduced the truly alien nature of the Borg into a lady with the hots for Picard/Data.
The whole idea of a Borg queen is itself stupid as it goes against the very nature of the Borg that was established in TNG, that is a hive mind with no one ruler. The Borg were at their most terrifying when they were a single unfeeling hive.
If I remember right she was only added in the first place because Paramount felt the need for a clear antagonist.
It's a long term strategy of the Borg to soften us. They have seen that we adapt and make ourselves stronger, so if they are weaker, we don't become stronger.
When they are truly ready to take over they bring in the tougher cubes with the more powerful weapons.
Otherwise, it's the careful balance of NPC strength and individual player satisfaction. Don't make the NPC too tough otherwise players will complain too much or not want to play. Doesn't it feel good to be so powerful that you can solo a cube?
Either that or the Borg are using the Alpha Quadrant races to harvest technology. They attack with a single ship (a cube) and get defeated, the Federation has a wave of technological change throughout to combat future Borg attacks, the Borg return and harvest these new technologies with a single vessel and are defeated again, the Federation counters with more and better tech. The cycle continues.
But... she wasn't the ruler of the Borg Collective. She even said so.
DATA: Greetings. ...I am curious, do you control the Borg collective? BORG QUEEN: You imply disparity where none exists. I am the collective. DATA: Perhaps I should rephrase the question. I wish to understand the organisational relationship. Are you their leader? BORG QUEEN: I bring order to chaos.
Its still a stupid concept that only exists thanks to Paramount, nitpicking my choice of words is not going to make a difference. Watch SFDebris's First contact review, he puts it far better than I can. http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/film8.php
The whole idea of a Borg queen is itself stupid as it goes against the very nature of the Borg that was established in TNG, that is a hive mind with no one ruler. The Borg were at their most terrifying when they were a single unfeeling hive.
If I remember right she was only added in the first place because Paramount felt the need for a clear antagonist.
Not only the queen, the drones itself have been reimagined into being vampire-zombies. The practice of assimilating individuals of a species was portrayed very differently in TNG as well. There were no "assimilation bites" with "infected" people lying and walking around. The assimiliation of Picard was shown to be a lengthy, out of the ordinary process. The Borg itself were shown to breed and only interested in technology.
The first Borg drone was able to "adapt" to melee attacks as well. It was able to counter the ensign's grab with superior strength and speed. This is a behaviour we never see again, instead drones became slow, sluggish zombies. Even VOY told us (via seven) how advanced and awesome every single drone is, yet all they ever did was to walk slowly and "bite" people. Remember what happened when they shot the first Borg drone in "Q, who"? A second drone beamed in, completed the task and salvaged key components from the downed drone and initiating (what I think) a kind of self-destruction mechanism afterwards before returning to the cube. I guess the habit of "leaving no technology behind" was abandoned as well.
I always thought of the original Borg as a homeless entity as well. The hive was scattered throughout the universe. On expansion, I always figured a cube would just start constructing another one in deep space, like mitosis, and then continue onward.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Comments
Yes, I didn't like having to retreat either then, that battle was our victory if Kurland had actually had a backbone.
Cryptic dropped the ball with the borg. For those that say the Federation have advanced, yes that's true.
But remember: The borg assimilate entire cultures. They take the technology that is better/stronger than what they have and ignore the rest. With that in mind, they've probably managed to assimilate hundreds of thousands of cultures in thousands of years. Take the best technology from all of them and you become something no one wants to mess with.
The Federation could never catch up with them after existing for a fraction of the time the borg have. The borg's only weakness are deserters because they know the borgs weaknesses. But even then, that is only a temporary advantage because they change after each culture is assimilated.
Cryptic should have invented smaller borg ships to go with the spheres and probes and have a cube as a boss target.
CLASSIFIED
[/SIGPIC]
How much of my space are we talking? Space is pretty big. I bet I could leave em out there and not even notice them among the rest of the stuff floating around in my space.
Let's see. DS9 is still an old cardassian mining platform (refining really but still) that was refit with what little tech could be made to interface with original systems. So even the tiny number of ships we see are a threat to it. A Connie still has the fire power to wreck a civilization. Weapon power went up for new ships the other stuff did not get weaker. So they are still a threat.
Best example I can give is that one Connie versus a Bortasque gets a swatted Connie. Now make that 100 Connies to the Bort and the picture changes.
The alpha quadrant is not on the footing to face the Jem'hadar's sudden reappearance. They are facing the Romulan empire remnant, fighting between the federation and the Klingon empire, fighting the borg. This new threat and they can't divert enough ships to overcome the numbers advantage without severely weakening another front. That is the issue of multi-front wars. They spread you thin.
So the mission says you punched a hole in the lines. Yep you did, handily too. But you are one of a handful of ships. Communications are down and you are carrying ambassadors and civilian refugees. Your duty is to fall back and report to your higher commands what is occurring. Then you have to contain this threat and neutralize it with the least amount of resources you can so as o not jeopardize other missions. If Elerise realized the technological improvements that have occurred, she will take hostage people she needs to improve her forces. Suddenly she is evening the firepower and gaining real advantage with her numbers. So she and her jem hadar have to be handled swiftly to boot.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Actually, the Federation would have caught up with them eventually. Guinan states that we weren't supposed to encounter the Borg yet, that right now we're just raw materials to them. That implies that if we had been allowed to naturally expand to Delta (if we hadn't been thrown there by Q), we would have been on par with the Borg.
The gap did close significantly between Wolf 359 and the battle of sector 001. 359 was a disaster for Starfleet which incurred massive losses of both manpower and ships.
By the time of the battle of sector 001 Starfleet while suffering significent losses once again managed to do heavy damage to the Borg cube even without the intervention of Picard and the Enterprise E. This was also during the Dominion war when Starfleet and the Klingons were both struggling against the Dominion.
My character Tsin'xing
I think a Borg Space Zone would be great. The Battlezones in general are my favourite content right now (though now that there is a space zone, I don't really feel like doing the Voth Ground Zone anymore) .
There is only one reason DS9 had to be defended........Kurland Here!
Unfortunately Activision own the rights to Armada so its not going to happen.
The Quote: "Your contact with the Borg came long before it should. When you're ready, it might be possible to establish a relationship with them, but now -- now, you are only raw material to them."
If the Borg and Federation developed at the same rates, then the Federation would never be more than raw materials. The clear implication is that the Federation and the Borg advance at different rates, otherwise the Federation would never be ready to establish a relationship with the Borg.
You could argue that Guinan is wrong, but the implication from her statement is perfectly clear - there would have been a time when the Federation was ready, and not considered raw material.
True, but they can't leave the Borg out of the game. Also, they have to make them defeatable. And depending on where you encounter them, their toughness varies. What would you suggest? Increasing the shields and hit points for all Borg vessels regardless of what setting you encounter them would probably work to an extent. Certainly would make evry encounter that much harder.
As said by me earlier:
It's a long term strategy of the Borg to soften us. They have seen that we adapt and make ourselves stronger, so if they are weaker, we don't become stronger.
When they are truly ready to take over they bring in the tougher cubes with the more powerful weapons.
Otherwise, it's the careful balance of NPC strength and individual player satisfaction. Don't make the NPC too tough otherwise players will complain too much or not want to play. Doesn't it feel good to be so powerful that you can solo a cube?
SCE ADVISORY NOTICE: Improper Impulse Engine maintenance can result in REAR THRUSTER LEAKAGE. ALWAYS have your work inspected by another qualified officer.
I agree all over again.
Unfortunately, that concept/portrayal was nerfed after a few appearance, and the Borg became anthropomorphous. Frankly, the later writers failed to properly grasp the inhuman, unrelatable, truly alien nature of the Borg, and gave them human drives, thought patterns, and fanservice.
I don't know if you noticed but this is exactly, exactly the way STO was structured when it debuted. But the nature of the beast is that players level and eventually outpaced the poor Borg.
If you want the deck to be shuffled and the Borg to be placed back on top it might eventually happen, but I imagine not for awhile as it would be seen to be repetitive.
Ill come back to this, but:
1st. It wasn't me who suggested changing what Borg ships appear, that's been thought of by several people, first was Timelord79 on page 3.
You can taste the irony in the air. The Borg are the great adapters...except that they can't adapt. They can't think creatively, and as a result, they're stagnant. When they first attacked, they had the advantage, because they were far more powerful than anything else in the area. But the Collective is a one-trick pony. It can't assimilate anything to improve itself, because if someone has better tech than it does, it'll probably use that tech to keep from being assimilated.
It's just delicious. And it's an expression of why Borg collectivism fails: when you rely on taking things from your enemies rather than making them yourself, you're vulnerable to anyone who has the courage to oppose you.
Beyond that, the Borg have just been done to death. I think there are ways to continue to handle them well, but it'll require a different method than just "the Borg are invading and they're invincible and we have to do technobabble to beat them". There are a few potential approaches, but I'd recommend that all are used:
- A focus on the "Borg are the Federation, but more honest" take.
- An examination of the nature of the Collective. Is it truly a collective entity, or is that just a facade for the Queen's domain?
- Have us actually figure out where they came from, and resolve their storyline while leaving them potentially open for further developments. Maybe even have Borg dynasties, because Ascended Memes are fun.
- Contrast the Borg with the Iconians as order versus chaos. The Borg are, of course, a sort of force of ultimate order. While the Iconians don't seem to be themselves particularly chaotic, their current methods certainly are. The Borg and the Dominion were the last two great threats to the Alpha Quadrant, and both were of order. But the Iconians are new in that they are of chaos. Use that contrast.
- Use an idea that I've toyed with for some time: the Collective as an ally. See, here's the thing: the Borg are actually really stupid. Even discounting the fact that the Collective doesn't seem to communicate within itself very well (the Collective at large isn't aware of things that certain drones know, and vessels engaging the enemy don't appear to have the benefit of knowledge that the Queen holds), their approach is incredibly stupid. Remember in "Dark Frontier", where Seven sarcastically suggests to the Queen that she open with her whole perfection spiel instead of "resistance is futile"? That would be a far more logical approach, and I'm going to start a new paragraph now, because this is turning into a wall of text.
Anyway. See, Seven herself was rehabilitated from dronehood with relative ease, considering when she was assimilated. So, what if the Borg just went through diplomatic channels instead? The Federation get to not have the Borg threat and have a lot of extra military might allied with their cause, as well as lots o' technology, and the Borg get access to Federation technology, and volunteers for temporary assimilation.
This is what I'm getting at with Seven's situation. I think the assimilation process could easily be adapted to be more temporary. That way, Federation citizens could just basically volunteer for an exchange program with the Collective. And if once their time is up they find that they like being in the Collective, they can stay. There's just not much point in the Collective doing things by force, especially now that they're horribly outmatched by the rest of the galaxy.
I feel like this would make a great reveal for a pilot episode of a new show. The hero ship is fighting some enemy force (a low-key one, in the vein of Klingons or someone. Not a huge threat, just the usual adversaries), and then a Borg fleet warps in...only to start attacking the enemy, and helping out the protagonists. Obviously, this would have to be explained later, but.
I dunno. I just think that the Borg had their time, just like all the other foes in Trek. Like someone else said, remember when the Klingons and Romulans were a mysterious and threatening force? The Iconians are now the Lovecraftian, terrifying enemy. The war against the Borg is a border skirmish.
The pseudo-unique nature of the Borg does NOT exempt them from the rules of Trek antagonists. They're not even that unique, really. They're a hive mind. That's been done plenty of times before the Borg. Come on. Space zombies? Space zombies. They're supposed to be the biggest enemy in the history of Trek?
Then Janeway happened.
She and her magic starship managed to chill out with a Borg ship for a few weeks, and even come home with their own pet Borg and some toys to reverse-engineer. Kind of that "I got your gun" moment from JJTrek.
The Borg is capable of adapting, but as we've seen in the game, Starfleet has developed a method of using the Borg's own technology against them to keep those "bionic zombies" from creating a completely effective defense in return.
Considering Starfleet engineers have a reputation for being able to "turn rocks into replicators", I'd be disappointed if we COULDN'T start solo'ing cubes at endgame. Nothing like that artificial high you get from cracking a ship in half that's 20 times your size.
Captaincy, Excelsior-Class U.S.S. Bianca Beauchamp NCC-99947-F
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
If you don't mind a reference to an MMO that is apparently not to be named:
There was a dungeon where the idea was you snuck in the back of a giant fortress to murder the Big Bad. You get there and fight him a bit and learn pretty quickly that you're not strong enough, and he'll kill you. The rest of the map is you fleeing this guy. Ideally you do get away, but there is no way to kill the Big Bad in that scenario.
So I guess my point is, whether you like WoW or not, that is an example of a rock solid MMO -- the MMO that pretty much wrote the book on MMO'ing-- designing a scenario where the party does not win, and in fact barely escapes.
So it's a totally plausible concept. Long as players get their loot, an STF where the team essentially loses would be fine. I would actually like to see something like this, as until now STO portrays you as essentially steamrolling every foe you come across.
When Janeway got promoted to Admiral, I felt as if someone at Paramount nuked a fridge.
I just read the "Star Trek: TNG Series" novels "Resistance" and "Before Dishonor'. If you want to talk about crazy Borg logic, the Borg in those books 'absorb' whole ships and planets within seconds. Borg Janeway rammed her Borg cube into starships, and she was able to 'absorb' them into the cube's framework.
rofl...
Twenty second assimilation.
pffft...
Who needs dones? Drone are soooo 20th century.
rofl...
My roflcopter sent sub-orbital. Luckily no one on Voyager's writing team wanted to pull a Lucas.
Captaincy, Excelsior-Class U.S.S. Bianca Beauchamp NCC-99947-F
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
which totally insane thing though. from making darth vader a emo teenage to killing off a character name anakin because he was worried people may get them confused. not to mention changing things to fit his screws ups. it still makes me sad a cartoon was more canon then the thrawn trilogy. and my older copy of empire strikes back broke...
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
Regardless of if it doesn't work for an MMO, we weren't talking about the concept in that limited a context (or at least I wasn't). The Borg were changed from their original concept long before STO started development in 2004 or 2008, depending on how you trace STO's history.
Don't get me wrong, I loved First Contact (1996) as a movie, but it really reduced the truly alien nature of the Borg into a lady with the hots for Picard/Data.
If I remember right she was only added in the first place because Paramount felt the need for a clear antagonist.
Either that or the Borg are using the Alpha Quadrant races to harvest technology. They attack with a single ship (a cube) and get defeated, the Federation has a wave of technological change throughout to combat future Borg attacks, the Borg return and harvest these new technologies with a single vessel and are defeated again, the Federation counters with more and better tech. The cycle continues.
Its still a stupid concept that only exists thanks to Paramount, nitpicking my choice of words is not going to make a difference. Watch SFDebris's First contact review, he puts it far better than I can.
http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/film8.php
Not only the queen, the drones itself have been reimagined into being vampire-zombies. The practice of assimilating individuals of a species was portrayed very differently in TNG as well. There were no "assimilation bites" with "infected" people lying and walking around. The assimiliation of Picard was shown to be a lengthy, out of the ordinary process. The Borg itself were shown to breed and only interested in technology.
The first Borg drone was able to "adapt" to melee attacks as well. It was able to counter the ensign's grab with superior strength and speed. This is a behaviour we never see again, instead drones became slow, sluggish zombies. Even VOY told us (via seven) how advanced and awesome every single drone is, yet all they ever did was to walk slowly and "bite" people. Remember what happened when they shot the first Borg drone in "Q, who"? A second drone beamed in, completed the task and salvaged key components from the downed drone and initiating (what I think) a kind of self-destruction mechanism afterwards before returning to the cube. I guess the habit of "leaving no technology behind" was abandoned as well.
I always thought of the original Borg as a homeless entity as well. The hive was scattered throughout the universe. On expansion, I always figured a cube would just start constructing another one in deep space, like mitosis, and then continue onward.
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