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Does anyone else find it strange... (Borg content)

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    lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,843 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    i take your point but if you had the kind of resilliance and weaponry of a lore based cube it would be too dificult to make the game fun, theres got to be a balance between how much the game sticks to what we see in the episodes and what is achivable or playable that can feature in game.
    this means that some things in the game are only a shadow of what we see on tv otherwise it would make the game too dificult even for a team of 5 let alone a single player.

    there is also the point that weapons and ships have been developed and enhanced way beyond the ships that were arround when wolf 359 occured.

    So what? People don't find it fun unless they can solo it? Maybe the game would have more players if there were raids and such...I for one would love to do a 20-25 man run on a Tac Cube...as long as it takes skill and tactics and isn't just a tank and spank with like say a billion health and shields.

    I personally find it lame as all hell when I can charge in between two cubes in a sector defense and take them out like you'd expect a Probe to be like.

    Everything is a joke really...I'm hoping if/when they up player level they will really take the time to actually make things a challenge...personally I'd rather see the expansion be a whole game revamp more than getting the Delta Quadrant.
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    shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    lianthelia wrote: »
    So what? People don't find it fun unless they can solo it? Maybe the game would have more players if there were raids and such...I for one would love to do a 20-25 man run on a Tac Cube...as long as it takes skill and tactics and isn't just a tank and spank with like say a billion health and shields.

    I personally find it lame as all hell when I can charge in between two cubes in a sector defense and take them out like you'd expect a Probe to be like.

    Everything is a joke really...I'm hoping if/when they up player level they will really take the time to actually make things a challenge...personally I'd rather see the expansion be a whole game revamp more than getting the Delta Quadrant.

    Like some MMO's, people find ways to exploit the system to their advantage, and create monster dps builds.

    This leads to boredom for them, and they ask for more challenge.

    Yet there are many who do not have such builds, and a huge increase to difficulty can hurt their fun.

    More difficulty selection can give both sides what they want, but can also create a divide between player's, as those who only do the hardest challenges become known as elitist's.

    You can always create more challenge for yourself, by forgoing the uber dps build, and pick a more basic build, or even poor man's build.

    Set the bar too high in terms of difficulty, and you will find yourself making a cookie cutter build, if you haven't already done so.
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    darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    normal stfs are there at level 44 I believe

    Eh, it's been too long.

    Regardless, that means you're fighting Borg at level 44, so the Borg are still the push-over introduction enemies.

    Undine Assault Elite, for example, is more challenging than ISE.
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    kestrelliuskestrellius Member Posts: 462 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Why does everyone want everything to be Wolf 359? It's been like seventy years since Wolf 359. The Alpha Quadrant has evolved; the Borg haven't. Let it go.

    However, if Cryptic want to make the Borg a legitimate threat without breaking the exquisite irony of the fact that they can't actually adapt and evolve, and without further beating the dead horse of ZOMG BORG ARE INVINCIBLE THEY CAN ADPAT TO AYNHTING I have an idea. Just make it so that they're desperate. Their foes have adapted, and they are, at long last, outmatched. So they have become desperate, and perhaps more dangerous than ever. Instead of their old "toss one cube at it" approach, they're throwing everything they have at the enemy. Basically...

    Basically have them be a bit like the Cardies in DS9. They used to be a major threat, but their time is over. But they're not willing to accept that, and they're trying to hold on a little longer, and through various circumstances, remain a threat in certain situations.

    Actually I had an idea a while back of how the Iconian War could end that involved the Borg. Basically, the Alliance, using an Omega molecule, baits the Borg into sending their entire fleet, with thousands of cubes and hundreds of Unimatrix ships, at a re-established Iconia. The Iconians of course make mincemeat of them, but there are so many that it's a decent distraction. While the battle rages, the Federation ship carrying the molecule heads into Iconia's core and detonates it, destroying the planet, the Iconians, and 95% of the Borg fleet. I mean, sure, they're not much of a threat anymore, but there's no point in taking the small chance that they could get their hands on Iconian technology and successfully assimilate it.

    Of course, this idea was before Season 8, so using an Omega molecule as a superweapon at this point would be a bit useless against the people who apparently have their servants mass-produce them.
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    cbrjwrrcbrjwrr Member Posts: 2,782 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Why does everyone want everything to be Wolf 359? It's been like seventy years since Wolf 359. The Alpha Quadrant has evolved; the Borg haven't. Let it go.

    43 years actually.

    I'm not saying the Borg should or even could be as relatively powerful they were back at Wolf 359, but I am saying it is strange to find the Borg, enemies who once needed just one ship to conquer the Alpha Quadrant, now being so relatively weak as have one of these ships be easily solo-able by a single ship today.

    To me, it makes sense - but it is strange. This is as much a commentary on how much we've improved, as it is about how far the mighty are fallen.
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    woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    darkjeff wrote: »
    Eh, it's been too long.

    Regardless, that means you're fighting Borg at level 44, so the Borg are still the push-over introduction enemies.

    Undine Assault Elite, for example, is more challenging than ISE.

    And here we got the problem: Its more challenging, but takes more time, more effort and -of course- gives less marks, especially in pugs. Thats why its not so popular. Time/effort-to-Rewards are just messed up.
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    mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    cbrjwrr wrote: »
    43 years actually.

    I'm not saying the Borg should or even could be as relatively powerful they were back at Wolf 359, but I am saying it is strange to find the Borg, enemies who once needed just one ship to conquer the Alpha Quadrant, now being so relatively weak as have one of these ships be easily solo-able by a single ship today.

    To me, it makes sense - but it is strange. This is as much a commentary on how much we've improved, as it is about how far the mighty are fallen.

    But if we really have improved that much - why do we be bother about a bunch of Dominion ships that are also over 30 years old and were stuck in a wormhole for a while? (Of course, gameplay and story don't match there at all. I easily blew up those Dominion ships there, where as the story suggested we needed to retreat...)
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    cbrjwrrcbrjwrr Member Posts: 2,782 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    But if we really have improved that much - why do we be bother about a bunch of Dominion ships that are also over 30 years old and were stuck in a wormhole for a while? (Of course, gameplay and story don't match there at all. I easily blew up those Dominion ships there, where as the story suggested we needed to retreat...)

    Yes, I didn't like having to retreat either then, that battle was our victory if Kurland had actually had a backbone.
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    cavaleriuscavalerius Member Posts: 126 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Bahaha, this thread...
    Cryptic dropped the ball with the borg. For those that say the Federation have advanced, yes that's true.

    But remember: The borg assimilate entire cultures. They take the technology that is better/stronger than what they have and ignore the rest. With that in mind, they've probably managed to assimilate hundreds of thousands of cultures in thousands of years. Take the best technology from all of them and you become something no one wants to mess with.

    The Federation could never catch up with them after existing for a fraction of the time the borg have. The borg's only weakness are deserters because they know the borgs weaknesses. But even then, that is only a temporary advantage because they change after each culture is assimilated.

    Cryptic should have invented smaller borg ships to go with the spheres and probes and have a cube as a boss target.
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    snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    f2pdrakron wrote: »
    Would you just leave nearly 3000 ships roaming around in your space?

    How much of my space are we talking? Space is pretty big. I bet I could leave em out there and not even notice them among the rest of the stuff floating around in my space.
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    feiqafeiqa Member Posts: 2,410 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    But if we really have improved that much - why do we be bother about a bunch of Dominion ships that are also over 30 years old and were stuck in a wormhole for a while? (Of course, gameplay and story don't match there at all. I easily blew up those Dominion ships there, where as the story suggested we needed to retreat...)

    Let's see. DS9 is still an old cardassian mining platform (refining really but still) that was refit with what little tech could be made to interface with original systems. So even the tiny number of ships we see are a threat to it. A Connie still has the fire power to wreck a civilization. Weapon power went up for new ships the other stuff did not get weaker. So they are still a threat.
    Best example I can give is that one Connie versus a Bortasque gets a swatted Connie. Now make that 100 Connies to the Bort and the picture changes.

    The alpha quadrant is not on the footing to face the Jem'hadar's sudden reappearance. They are facing the Romulan empire remnant, fighting between the federation and the Klingon empire, fighting the borg. This new threat and they can't divert enough ships to overcome the numbers advantage without severely weakening another front. That is the issue of multi-front wars. They spread you thin.

    So the mission says you punched a hole in the lines. Yep you did, handily too. But you are one of a handful of ships. Communications are down and you are carrying ambassadors and civilian refugees. Your duty is to fall back and report to your higher commands what is occurring. Then you have to contain this threat and neutralize it with the least amount of resources you can so as o not jeopardize other missions. If Elerise realized the technological improvements that have occurred, she will take hostage people she needs to improve her forces. Suddenly she is evening the firepower and gaining real advantage with her numbers. So she and her jem hadar have to be handled swiftly to boot.

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    darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    cavalerius wrote: »
    The Federation could never catch up with them after existing for a fraction of the time the borg have.

    Actually, the Federation would have caught up with them eventually. Guinan states that we weren't supposed to encounter the Borg yet, that right now we're just raw materials to them. That implies that if we had been allowed to naturally expand to Delta (if we hadn't been thrown there by Q), we would have been on par with the Borg.
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    zipagatzipagat Member Posts: 1,204 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    darkjeff wrote: »
    Actually, the Federation would have caught up with them eventually. Guinan states that we weren't supposed to encounter the Borg yet, that right now we're just raw materials to them. That implies that if we had been allowed to naturally expand to Delta (if we hadn't been thrown there by Q), we would have been on par with the Borg.


    The gap did close significantly between Wolf 359 and the battle of sector 001. 359 was a disaster for Starfleet which incurred massive losses of both manpower and ships.

    By the time of the battle of sector 001 Starfleet while suffering significent losses once again managed to do heavy damage to the Borg cube even without the intervention of Picard and the Enterprise E. This was also during the Dominion war when Starfleet and the Klingons were both struggling against the Dominion.
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    markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    feiqa wrote: »
    Let's see. DS9 is still an old cardassian mining platform (refining really but still) that was refit with what little tech could be made to interface with original systems. So even the tiny number of ships we see are a threat to it. A Connie still has the fire power to wreck a civilization. Weapon power went up for new ships the other stuff did not get weaker. So they are still a threat.
    Best example I can give is that one Connie versus a Bortasque gets a swatted Connie. Now make that 100 Connies to the Bort and the picture changes.

    The alpha quadrant is not on the footing to face the Jem'hadar's sudden reappearance. They are facing the Romulan empire remnant, fighting between the federation and the Klingon empire, fighting the borg. This new threat and they can't divert enough ships to overcome the numbers advantage without severely weakening another front. That is the issue of multi-front wars. They spread you thin.

    So the mission says you punched a hole in the lines. Yep you did, handily too. But you are one of a handful of ships. Communications are down and you are carrying ambassadors and civilian refugees. Your duty is to fall back and report to your higher commands what is occurring. Then you have to contain this threat and neutralize it with the least amount of resources you can so as o not jeopardize other missions. If Elerise realized the technological improvements that have occurred, she will take hostage people she needs to improve her forces. Suddenly she is evening the firepower and gaining real advantage with her numbers. So she and her jem hadar have to be handled swiftly to boot.
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    mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    skollulfr wrote: »
    a borg space zone to drain the queues dry then replace the current sloggy task force missions with updated versions.

    though imo, the reason the stfs are disproportionately popular is the effort needed to get the rewards they offer.
    I think so, too. And I bet that the Cryptic team dislikes that, but they still don't dare to change it. (Or maybe it just hasn't come up to the point). It's definitely hurting other content options - why bother with an Undine Queued mission if you can get your marks and dilithium much faster with Infected. THe only reason to do Undine queued missions is to get the counter-command marks - but if you have maxed out your rep and have the gear you want, you do Infected again.

    I think a Borg Space Zone would be great. The Battlezones in general are my favourite content right now (though now that there is a space zone, I don't really feel like doing the Voth Ground Zone anymore) .
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    jarodroto123jarodroto123 Member Posts: 1,337 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    feiqa wrote: »
    Let's see. DS9 is still an old cardassian mining platform (refining really but still) that was refit with what little tech could be made to interface with original systems. So even the tiny number of ships we see are a threat to it. A Connie still has the fire power to wreck a civilization. Weapon power went up for new ships the other stuff did not get weaker. So they are still a threat.
    Best example I can give is that one Connie versus a Bortasque gets a swatted Connie. Now make that 100 Connies to the Bort and the picture changes.

    The alpha quadrant is not on the footing to face the Jem'hadar's sudden reappearance. They are facing the Romulan empire remnant, fighting between the federation and the Klingon empire, fighting the borg. This new threat and they can't divert enough ships to overcome the numbers advantage without severely weakening another front. That is the issue of multi-front wars. They spread you thin.

    So the mission says you punched a hole in the lines. Yep you did, handily too. But you are one of a handful of ships. Communications are down and you are carrying ambassadors and civilian refugees. Your duty is to fall back and report to your higher commands what is occurring. Then you have to contain this threat and neutralize it with the least amount of resources you can so as o not jeopardize other missions. If Elerise realized the technological improvements that have occurred, she will take hostage people she needs to improve her forces. Suddenly she is evening the firepower and gaining real advantage with her numbers. So she and her jem hadar have to be handled swiftly to boot.

    There is only one reason DS9 had to be defended........Kurland Here! :D
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    davidjeffreydavidjeffrey Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    It would be good for cryptic to implement the borg fusion cube/fusion tactical cube which was seen in star trek armada 2
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    zipagatzipagat Member Posts: 1,204 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    It would be good for cryptic to implement the borg fusion cube/fusion tactical cube which was seen in star trek armada 2

    Unfortunately Activision own the rights to Armada so its not going to happen.
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    darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    skollulfr wrote: »
    it implies nothing of the sort!

    The Quote: "Your contact with the Borg came long before it should. When you're ready, it might be possible to establish a relationship with them, but now -- now, you are only raw material to them."

    If the Borg and Federation developed at the same rates, then the Federation would never be more than raw materials. The clear implication is that the Federation and the Borg advance at different rates, otherwise the Federation would never be ready to establish a relationship with the Borg.

    You could argue that Guinan is wrong, but the implication from her statement is perfectly clear - there would have been a time when the Federation was ready, and not considered raw material.
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    goodscotchgoodscotch Member Posts: 1,680 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    cbrjwrr wrote: »
    ...that the Borg just aren't a threat now?


    At Wolf 359, 39 Starships were lost and 11,000 people died, and the Cube ignored every attack apart from one via the Borg's own hive mind - the most catastrophic defeat in Federation history.

    By the battle of Sector 001, a Federation Fleet could actually bring down a normal Cube, with not quite as many ships lost.

    By STO, even an average player ship has the ability to comfortably 1 vs 1 a Cube, and most of us on here could solo a Tactical Cube, with varying amounts of ease. And it isn't just the big stuff, even a remake of Archer's NX-01 could take on a Sphere and win now.


    The Borg started off as one of the most dangerous opponents the Alpha Quadrant had seen, and now a team of 5 ships can destroy a Transwarp Gate Assembly, a Tac Cube, 2 normal Cubes and lots of Spheres in about a minute and a half.

    A mere 90 seconds or even less!




    In 43 years, the Borg have gone from only needing one Cube to assimilate the AQ, to needing a small fleet of their own to stop a single AQ ship. That's progress, and pretty soon we will need a new ultimate threat, because the Borg just aren't suitable now...

    True, but they can't leave the Borg out of the game. Also, they have to make them defeatable. And depending on where you encounter them, their toughness varies. What would you suggest? Increasing the shields and hit points for all Borg vessels regardless of what setting you encounter them would probably work to an extent. Certainly would make evry encounter that much harder.
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    cbrjwrrcbrjwrr Member Posts: 2,782 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    goodscotch wrote: »
    True, but they can't leave the Borg out of the game. Also, they have to make them defeatable. And depending on where you encounter them, their toughness varies. What would you suggest? Increasing the shields and hit points for all Borg vessels regardless of what setting you encounter them would probably work to an extent. Certainly would make evry encounter that much harder.

    As said by me earlier:
    cbrjwrr wrote: »
    43 years actually.

    I'm not saying the Borg should or even could be as relatively powerful they were back at Wolf 359, but I am saying it is strange to find the Borg, enemies who once needed just one ship to conquer the Alpha Quadrant, now being so relatively weak as have one of these ships be easily solo-able by a single ship today.

    To me, it makes sense - but it is strange. This is as much a commentary on how much we've improved, as it is about how far the mighty are fallen.
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    sirokksirokk Member Posts: 990 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    cbrjwrr wrote: »
    ...that the Borg just aren't a threat now?


    At Wolf 359, 39 Starships were lost and 11,000 people died, and the Cube ignored every attack apart from one via the Borg's own hive mind - the most catastrophic defeat in Federation history.

    By the battle of Sector 001, a Federation Fleet could actually bring down a normal Cube, with not quite as many ships lost.

    By STO, even an average player ship has the ability to comfortably 1 vs 1 a Cube, and most of us on here could solo a Tactical Cube, with varying amounts of ease. And it isn't just the big stuff, even a remake of Archer's NX-01 could take on a Sphere and win now.


    The Borg started off as one of the most dangerous opponents the Alpha Quadrant had seen, and now a team of 5 ships can destroy a Transwarp Gate Assembly, a Tac Cube, 2 normal Cubes and lots of Spheres in about a minute and a half.

    A mere 90 seconds or even less!




    In 43 years, the Borg have gone from only needing one Cube to assimilate the AQ, to needing a small fleet of their own to stop a single AQ ship. That's progress, and pretty soon we will need a new ultimate threat, because the Borg just aren't suitable now...

    It's a long term strategy of the Borg to soften us. They have seen that we adapt and make ourselves stronger, so if they are weaker, we don't become stronger.

    When they are truly ready to take over they bring in the tougher cubes with the more powerful weapons.

    Otherwise, it's the careful balance of NPC strength and individual player satisfaction. Don't make the NPC too tough otherwise players will complain too much or not want to play. Doesn't it feel good to be so powerful that you can solo a cube?

    :)
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    goodscotchgoodscotch Member Posts: 1,680 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    cbrjwrr wrote: »
    As said by me earlier:

    I agree all over again.
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    darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    The Borg in their earlier appearances were freaking scary. They were powerful, unfathomable, and relentless. They remain the best enemies to come out of any Trek series post TOS. People want scarier, more powerful Borg not because of nostalgia for TNG but because when handled right they're just plain awesome. They're like the Terminator crossed with Jason Voorhees. They can't be reasoned with, they can't be bargained with, and they will not stop ever until you are dead (or assimilated, which is much the same).

    Unfortunately, that concept/portrayal was nerfed after a few appearance, and the Borg became anthropomorphous. Frankly, the later writers failed to properly grasp the inhuman, unrelatable, truly alien nature of the Borg, and gave them human drives, thought patterns, and fanservice.
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