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It's not crafting it's a slots machine
mistressbenihime
Member Posts: 224 Arc User
the current crafting system is noting more than a glorified slots machine.
when implemented it will add no value to the game. as of right now it's better to keep the old system. yes the old system is a glorified shop but at least you know what you'll be getting up ahead.
it's not all terrible the ui is good, the approach is good and using doff was the right thing to do.
however since i have little to no control over the outcome it's not a crafting system. you just put materials in and a semi-random item drops out that is more or less how a slots machine functions.
it's only generating semi-random loot for an alternative price. if it was a true crafting system i'd have full control over the outcome. the crafting system should functionally much more closely resemble that of ESO or GW2.
when crafting items we need to be able to control the following factors
modifiers is where crafting should shine but i can't even control it.
custom making items should be the corner stone of crafting. that would probably make crafted items more popular that found ones. but by allowing us to change modifier and deconstruct them for crafting materials this should not be a problem.
change crafting to
EDIT:
just to clarify
my true concern here is that you can reach level 20 in a school of crafting and then still get a white quality item because of a bad roll by the system that you have no control over!
that can happen It's specifically sated that chances will never be 100%.
actually some people have been saying that the crafting I want is just a shop. I've been giving that some thought and concluded that it's true. crafting can't even be anything else.
Crafing is to a EC/Dilitium shop what a Tailor is to a fashion shop. both are shops that sell cloths but only the tailor crafts them to perfectly fit you.
only by controlling every aspect can you tailor make the items for yourself and your build. that the hallmark of a truly great crafting system. the one that when you fully master it will allow you to tailor make items.
as of right now I don't see that happen, actually I see us getting a system that the furthest removed from that as it can be.
EDIT 2:
from Tribble Maintenance and Release Notes - July 8, 2014
let's sum up.
so that makes level 20 in a school plus a purple Doff 10x20+30=200+30=230 player skill
230 player skill -180 difficulty level=50
this is the maximum you can have! and it only eliminates green and white items.
you can never eliminate the chance of a sub-par blue item without using C-tore bought Catalysts!
that just pure pay to win. If the possibility exist to be so good that you can reliably craft the highest rarity whit a lot more effort but the catalyst is a shortcut than it's okay, if not it's pay to win and that's neither fun nor good.
you all realize that this also applies to the chance of crafting ultra-rare(ultraviolet) versions to the special items.
on which they state:
I read this as:
Eliminating purple is going to be even more difficult(require even more skill) and require more catalysts but to fool you into thinking that were doing you a favor we increase the base chance.
EDIT 3
down in the 5 page I found a comment that I felt needed its response copies to the OP.
Oh I never said that those shouldn't come. I am only saying that it shouldn't come in this form.
What I am saying is that this system Itself is not needed. those rewards can be provided better though other systems like the reps system.
right now Crypic dangles these Items in front of us to get us to use this broken system, because there is no other way to gain them. there is no good reason to use this system for anything else than those items. the system itself has no value Cryptic knows this and that's why the items are there. Cryptic is just tricking us into using it whit these items. I don't want this system and these wonderful new rewards should be put in a new reputation for the rep system instead.
when implemented it will add no value to the game. as of right now it's better to keep the old system. yes the old system is a glorified shop but at least you know what you'll be getting up ahead.
it's not all terrible the ui is good, the approach is good and using doff was the right thing to do.
however since i have little to no control over the outcome it's not a crafting system. you just put materials in and a semi-random item drops out that is more or less how a slots machine functions.
it's only generating semi-random loot for an alternative price. if it was a true crafting system i'd have full control over the outcome. the crafting system should functionally much more closely resemble that of ESO or GW2.
when crafting items we need to be able to control the following factors
- Item Type
- MK
- Rarity
- Modifiers
modifiers is where crafting should shine but i can't even control it.
custom making items should be the corner stone of crafting. that would probably make crafted items more popular that found ones. but by allowing us to change modifier and deconstruct them for crafting materials this should not be a problem.
change crafting to
- give us full control over all aspects of the outcome
- allow us to change modifier on found items
- deconstruct found items for crafting materials
EDIT:
just to clarify
my true concern here is that you can reach level 20 in a school of crafting and then still get a white quality item because of a bad roll by the system that you have no control over!
that can happen It's specifically sated that chances will never be 100%.
actually some people have been saying that the crafting I want is just a shop. I've been giving that some thought and concluded that it's true. crafting can't even be anything else.
Crafing is to a EC/Dilitium shop what a Tailor is to a fashion shop. both are shops that sell cloths but only the tailor crafts them to perfectly fit you.
only by controlling every aspect can you tailor make the items for yourself and your build. that the hallmark of a truly great crafting system. the one that when you fully master it will allow you to tailor make items.
as of right now I don't see that happen, actually I see us getting a system that the furthest removed from that as it can be.
EDIT 2:
from Tribble Maintenance and Release Notes - July 8, 2014
coldsnapped wrote: »Systems:
- Research and Development:
- Green items will now be created slightly less often when player Skill Rating is exactly equal to Difficulty Rating.
- Green items will now be completely eliminated from R+D results when player Skill Rating exceeds Difficulty Rating by at least 50 points.
- Once both Green and White items have been eliminated from the possible R+D results, Blue outcomes will begin to be eliminated at a faster rate than before.
- If a player's Skill Rating exceeds the Difficulty Rating of a project by an extremely large amount, it is now possible to completely eliminate Blue items from the possible outcomes.
- Ultrarare chances on high-end crafting recipes now require less total Skill Rating to craft, but the rate at which Ultrarare chance increases is lower than it was before.
let's sum up.
- MK XII items have a difficulty level of 180.
- each level increases the player skill rating by 10
- white Doffs offer no increase in skill level
- green Doffs offer a +5 increase of skill level
- blue Doffs offer a +15 increase of skill level
- purple Doffs offer a +30 increase in skill level
so that makes level 20 in a school plus a purple Doff 10x20+30=200+30=230 player skill
230 player skill -180 difficulty level=50
this is the maximum you can have! and it only eliminates green and white items.
you can never eliminate the chance of a sub-par blue item without using C-tore bought Catalysts!
that just pure pay to win. If the possibility exist to be so good that you can reliably craft the highest rarity whit a lot more effort but the catalyst is a shortcut than it's okay, if not it's pay to win and that's neither fun nor good.
you all realize that this also applies to the chance of crafting ultra-rare(ultraviolet) versions to the special items.
on which they state:
this means you get to start out a whit little higher chance but increasing your chances is made harder.Ultra-rare chances on high-end crafting recipes now require less total Skill Rating to craft, but the rate at which Ultra-rare chance increases is lower than it was before.
I read this as:
Eliminating purple is going to be even more difficult(require even more skill) and require more catalysts but to fool you into thinking that were doing you a favor we increase the base chance.
EDIT 3
down in the 5 page I found a comment that I felt needed its response copies to the OP.
I'd still like the ability to create some of the special unlocked weapon types too for this stuff.
Oh I never said that those shouldn't come. I am only saying that it shouldn't come in this form.
What I am saying is that this system Itself is not needed. those rewards can be provided better though other systems like the reps system.
right now Crypic dangles these Items in front of us to get us to use this broken system, because there is no other way to gain them. there is no good reason to use this system for anything else than those items. the system itself has no value Cryptic knows this and that's why the items are there. Cryptic is just tricking us into using it whit these items. I don't want this system and these wonderful new rewards should be put in a new reputation for the rep system instead.
THE NEW CRAFTING SYSTEM IS TERRA-BAD
First of all it's not even a crafting system! It's just a dumb game system that's nothing more than a glorified slots machine.
second the "special items" you hope will be the saving the saving grace are messed up to.
First of all it's not even a crafting system! It's just a dumb game system that's nothing more than a glorified slots machine.
second the "special items" you hope will be the saving the saving grace are messed up to.
Post edited by mistressbenihime on
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But on start of S9.5 I will roll on the floor crying.
0, yes zero very rare AP MK II dual canons
p.s. I will execute my rare Jamhadar who is serving under me for 1,5 years for incompetence its just a MK II dual canon, he is Energy Weapons Officer not a Doctor.
Source: http://priorityonepodcast.com/po179/
(It's a long podcast, but well worth it.)
And you believed it? Really? Why?
Why don't they implement crit chance down the road?
And give us now a really crafting system.
I know that algorithm to calculate crit if far more complex.
0, yes zero very rare AP MK II dual canons
p.s. I will execute my rare Jamhadar who is serving under me for 1,5 years for incompetence its just a MK II dual canon, he is Energy Weapons Officer not a Doctor.
I am just passionate about crafting and id like it to be the best it can be. as it is right now it's not worth changing. I want to give the devs pointers on how to make STO's crafting system into one of the greatest crafting systems in any MMO. I realize that were not seeing the final product yet but the current setup has me worried about the end product.
as i see it now you will progress to it once to craft the top level items and than abandon the system completely. where id like the crafting system to be valuable in it's own right. to do that we need to have complete control over all aspects of the outcome. I would not mind unlocking them as we progress though the system but as of right now the system doesn't seem to be valuable in it own right.
i will go and listen to that podcast though....
First of all it's not even a crafting system! It's just a dumb game system that's nothing more than a glorified slots machine.
second the "special items" you hope will be the saving the saving grace are messed up to.
Please also listen to the podcast in the link I provided. You'll hear for yourself then what their plans and ideas are. I'd made a transcript of the relevant parts if I wasn't already busy with other things, so you'll just have to hear it for yourself.
Yes right after they fix pvp... we only waiting 4 years for a up-date, so far....
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
...AND get the Foundry out of Beta..... AND finish ship interiors.... AND finish Doff achievement bonus.... AND add the first officer system....
I just love all the players believing that Cryptic will return to half done system and make it better once it is pushed out.... please point the when they have done that in the past.
I have listened to the podcast and its all about critical chance there is no way they will abandon the critical chance for crafting even in high end gear.
This is not crafting its gambling. And they have plans to let you pick mods for even more cost.
0, yes zero very rare AP MK II dual canons
p.s. I will execute my rare Jamhadar who is serving under me for 1,5 years for incompetence its just a MK II dual canon, he is Energy Weapons Officer not a Doctor.
what i Heard is NOT encouraging. I want full control! the system is made in a way that as my level goes up my chance goes up. that's wrong! when i am crafting I wan't to get what i plan to get. if i boost my chance to 90% for a purple i can still get a bad roll and not get my purple. that sucks!!!
worse al riviera even said "chances will never be 100%"
the way to go is allowing me to set the rarity but at an increased cost. then as my skill goes up have the cost go down. that will make leveling up worthwhile. I applaud cryptic for an approach that allows us to craft mk 12 right of the bat. instead of having no control over the rarity they should make creating MK12 purples be prohibitively expensive. as my skill increases to a high enough level the regular MK12 items will be more reasonably priced and in a few more levels even the purples will be reasonably do-able.
in the end crafting is about control over the outcome. cryptic is not giving me that.
on the subject of determining and changing modifiers. I am happy cryptic has plans for it but I need to see it first then i believable it. were talking about cryptic here. their list of plans for their games are considerably longer than the stuff they actually work on. unless I see it on tribble I will assume that it only exists on cryptics to do list.
EDIT
ahhh you beat me to it
First of all it's not even a crafting system! It's just a dumb game system that's nothing more than a glorified slots machine.
second the "special items" you hope will be the saving the saving grace are messed up to.
STO Forum member since before February 2010.
STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link
I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
So if it not complete yet, why put it in game? If my company put half-made product for sale it would simply go down as not reliable for it's customers.
To be blunt ...I love to craft for the sake ....it entertains me...the harvest, the craft and the SELLING.....also items used to have a tag "MADE BY SO and SO"
In STO crafting has been the worst, tied for last, and most neglected aspect of the game.
This new crafting, which is in the works, does not invoke a good response from me so far.
CRAFTING SHOULD be a way for p[layers to get good solid gear that is not readily available through other measures. It should be a way for the crafters to have fun...not just a time sink. It should be exciting, well as much as it can be for something so booring. It should be something to be proud of whilst trying to get to max level crafting.
Thus far the game has delivered none of this in regards to crafting.....the new system ...I Like even less then the original amd I like that even less then the 2nd revamp of crafting attempted years ago.
and yes...I could see how they would say it feels like a slot machine.....
Dont get me wrong but I would have loved that they have posted a piece of paper and sad:
Cryptic: This is our idea of the new crafting system what do you think about it? To craft one MK XII item is 20k dil but its a crit chance on rarity and mod.
Players: We dont want crit on rarity and mod.
Criptyc: For rarity we have to put additional 20k dil and every mode will be 5k dil
I personally would be: Yey I will grind like a mad dog, I will buy ZEN to exchange it to craft my stuff like I do with fleet projects because all in my fleet think that we fleet admirals get 50k refined dil every day so they would not touch the dil bar even if they life depends on it. So its up to us 3. But I do it and I am happy because I know with every tier what we will be able to buy.
0, yes zero very rare AP MK II dual canons
p.s. I will execute my rare Jamhadar who is serving under me for 1,5 years for incompetence its just a MK II dual canon, he is Energy Weapons Officer not a Doctor.
my true concern here is that you can reach level 20 in a school of crafting and then still get a white quality item because of a bad roll by the system that you have no control over!
that can happen It's specifically sated that chances will never be 100%.
actually some people have been saying that the crafting I want is just a shop. I've been giving that some thought and concluded that it's true. crafting can't even be anything else.
Crafing is to a EC/Dilitium shop what a Tailor is to a fashion shop. both are shops that sell cloths but only the tailor crafts them to perfectly fit you.
only by controlling every aspect can you tailor make the items for yourself and your build. that the hallmark of a truly great crafting system. the one that when you fully master it will allow you to tailor make items.
as of right now I don't see that happen, actually I see us getting a system that the furthest removed from that as it can be.
First of all it's not even a crafting system! It's just a dumb game system that's nothing more than a glorified slots machine.
second the "special items" you hope will be the saving the saving grace are messed up to.
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makes you want to run outside and job your finger in the Dirt huh ?
roflol
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
So coming from that kind of a system, I get the concept STO is using and being that it's in alpha and is being fine tuned, I see zero issue with it.
Defending The Galaxy By Breaking One Starfleet Regulation After The Next.
Why would anyone use the crafting system then? Want a MKXII green or white at a greater cost than the purples from the fleet store or reputation system, then crafting is for you.
It seems that we want the crafting system to be a success more than Cryptic does. This is worrying for the future of the game.
and thats just the low level stuff.
It took them 2-3 years to add the missing chunk of content for the KDF, and it was only because the Rom were coming.
And BTW, we are still waiting to see the inside of the city on New Romulus, which is unlikely to come before at least a year, according to an interview. It was planned we would see it grow, following players actions.
Lot of planned stuff, not enough time/money to be made. I trust Cryptic to deliver what they planned in interview about as much as American Indians trusted the white men to fulfill their part of the agreement.
Having worse in another game doesn't mean what we have is good. I don't know FFXI craft, but your description sound a lot like STO new craft. You can also fail (IE having a low quality item), and you loose dil and mats everytime. No matter what.
As to ridiculously hard to lvl, somewhere counted you have to spend hundreds hours (IRL) to lvl up to rank 5 in a school in STO. And most of this time is simply waiting for the project to complete, unless you have millions of dil to waste to finish the project quicker. I'm not even counting the huge amount of resources you need to have.
But otherwise we don't have to deal with lunar phase. Maybe that will be implemented somewhere down the road. With a Cstore option to skip it.
all so the devs say stuff to shut people up n people always believe them. as the person above me has all ready stated
there not. the word crafting itself implies that you create tailor-made in if items whit the system. if you make a system that does anything but that its a bad system. I think the following statement is perfect for you.
thanks for your sarcasm
and thanky you @erei1 for pointing out that if other games have worse systems that it doesn't make ours good.
by crafting just 3 items I had figured out the inner workings of the system and predicted that what you experienced was the most likely thing to happen.
as you said that's mk2 gear even if you reach level 20 in all schools of crafting you are going to experience a similar problem (or likely a worse version of this problem) when crafting MK12 items
you are one of these people that seems to think it's all going to change for the better I guess. and therefore we should all wait and see what comes next on tribble before we freak out.
here is the thing when a building is build halfway though you can see what kind of building it is. a skyscraper looks considerably different from a Gothic church at half way point. what we see now is the foundation on which the rest of the system will be build and I've concluded that the foundation is rotten!
I think this guy sais it best though.
First of all it's not even a crafting system! It's just a dumb game system that's nothing more than a glorified slots machine.
second the "special items" you hope will be the saving the saving grace are messed up to.
Sadly this has been my observation also. They fix some of the bugs found in the release but rarely seem to deviate from their chosen path.
As I've said in other threads: I'm not going to gamble Dilithium for a "Chance" of crafting something I want. :mad:
A dictionary definition of "to craft":
to make or manufacture (an object or objects) with great skill and care.
Not:
to make or manufacture (an object or objects) by rolling a dice and hoping that you get what you desire.
I cannot see this system being changed, unfortunately.
Why would anyone use the crafting system then? Probably to be able to upgrade their purple/fleet/unique equipment or craft things unique to the crafting system. If I'm able to have a yellow-quality MACO set, I'm gonna want my crafting ability high enough to upgrade it.
All I'm saying is if you're going into the R&D system expecting to get better items than what's on your main's ship or just wanting everything to be the best of the best, there's a very real chance that you're going to be disappointed. If you're not expecting to craft that good of an item and will be content with the lowest result, the better-quality items being the result is an awesome bonus. And if you're entering the R&D system to want to get something that you can't get anywhere else, it's irrelevant when you get mulligans. That's all I'm saying.
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