Should I list every time a developer said something and it never came to pass or it did come to pass but in a form that thoroughly screwed the playerbase?
I believe it because a Cryptic developer said so. . .
Yeah . . . but I tend to think of Crypic as used starship salesmen when it comes to things like this. They will tell you all the great and wonderful things that are coming but tend to ignore/ gloss over the nerfs. By the time the players have played actual content and crunched the numbers, its too late.
But, the entire point of announcing and debuting the crafting revamp was to get us excited; the announcement succeeded and the debut then turned that entirely around to the response we're seeing now.
A large part of the issue is the underlying structure of the proposed crafting system:
1) variable outcomes mean you still don't necessarily get relevant equipment
2) dilithium costs for a variable outcome are still higher than alternative sources of equipment
---a) the "normalizing" of EC and dilithium costs may be an attempt to conceal or "fix" this
3) increasing timers w/dilithium extortion to get the same completion time as the current system
---a) in addition to the dilithium costs of the base item
4) clumsy UI with extraneous crafting steps
---a) current system: gather/purchase materials, make/purchase one schematic, make one item, get item when progress bar fills in ~5 secs; simple double-click to make interface
---b) proposed system: gather/purchase materials, make/purchase multiple component items, make one item, get item after clicking the Collect button after x hrs or pay additional dilithium tax; multiple dropdown selectors that then need their materials requirements to be calculated in a secondary step, with added doff selection and optional "catalyst" slotting in addition to materials inputs
5) adding doff requirements (probably the most tolerable monetization method employed by the new system)
---a) means that you need higher quality doffs to make what you want (increased likelihood of doing General Recruitment and Reassign Underperforming Officers with their added dilithium costs)
---b) need more doff Roster space to accommodate them (available in the C-Store)
---c) specialized doff requirements (available in doff packs in the C-Store and lock boxes) for high-end items
6) someone applied a smartphone app skin to crafting and doffing, and not really an efficient one
For me, the solutions are fairly simple:
1) leave the variable outcomes for base R&D, finish the promised [Mod] customization
2) either remove the dilithium cost from crafting the base items but keep the dilithium costs on the [Mod] customization (there will probably be one, lets not kid ourselves) and timer extortion or keep the dilithium cost on crafting the base items but allow for zero dilithium on the [Mod] customization and give us back the progress bar; the former is more likely, since the latter would make it too easy to bypass dilithium costs by starting with good gear and modifying from there... and *cough* monetization
3) see the preceding suggestion
4) convert current component materials in the item crafting projects to their actual crafting ingredient costs, removing the step where you craft components; depending on the implementation of the suggestion for 2, either no dilithium to worry about or only retain the dilithium components as a crafting step/requirement
5) tolerable, though a more acceptable version might be to require a doff of a minimum quality to the item being crafted, with 2-3 Very Rare doffs needed for Ultra Rare or Gold projects; or remove the doff requirement, but *cough* monetization
6) add a checkbox under the Options menu titled "Tiled Duty Officer and Crafting UI" and allow players to deselect this option to use the old doffing UI; make a crafting UI that more closely follows the current Holodeck doffing UI, and sync the Crafting Schools to the Department Heads to make searching for a particular project more efficient, further tab by item type (look at the Exchange subcategories for Ship Equipment, for an example); rather than grouping R&D projects by CXP subsets, the searchable and collapsible subsections would be by item/damage subtype, while the further tabs would select base item type (Dual Beam Bank, Beam Array, Torpedo, etc.); give us a UI designed to use in-game when we are in-game (not a poor smartphone app), if that is what we choose (but default on the poor smartphone app so new players don't get confused by that vs. the Gateway port; they can't even find their way out of the Clusters, after all); this also assumes implementation of the previous suggestions
---a) suggested Department Heads for Crafting Schools:
First Officer = Carrier Pets, [Mod] Customization, Special Projects (that do not apply to specific Crafting Schools or Department)
subtabs: Hangar, Customization, Special Projects
Engineering = Engineering
subtabs: Consoles, Engines, Singularity Cores, Warp Cores; Ground Armor; Advanced Engineering R&D (the special stuff goes here, if any)
Operations = Space Consumables, Ground Pets (non-biological only), Kits, and Kit Modules (when added)
subtabs: Consumables; Autonomous Equipment, Kits, Kit Modules; Advanced Operations (the special stuff goes here, if any)
Science = Science and Shields
subtabs: Consoles, Deflectors, Space Shields; Ground Shields; Advanced Science R&D (the special stuff goes here, if any)
Medical = Ground Comsumables (when added), Ground Pets (biological only)
subtabs: Consumables, Xenobiology, Advanced Medical R&D (the special stuff goes here, if any)
Tactical = Beams, Cannons, and Projectiles; all Ground Weapons are grouped, do the same with these
subtabs: Beam Arrays, Dual Beam Banks; Dual Heavy Cannons, Dual Cannons, Single Cannons, Turrets; Torpedoes, Mines; Advanced Tactical R&D (the special stuff goes here, if any)
Security = Ground Weapons
subtabs: Assault, then: Assault Blast, Assault Minigun, Charged Burst, Long-Range Minigun, Pulsewave; Pistols, then: Compression, Dual Pistols, Repeater, Split Beam, Stun, Wide-Beam; Rifles, then: Full-Auto, High Density, Piercing Beam, Sniper, Split Beam, Wide Beam; Advanced Security R&D (the special stuff goes here, if any)
I don't actually have a problem with *cough* monetization, by the way, I would just like it to be subtle enough that it doesn't actually drive us all away from crafting in the first place. Pick a monetization mechanic to apply to the crafting system, don't monetize every single aspect of it. If the system is more expensive and more uncertain than the alternatives, you will have very few willing to participate, which means no added dilithium demand, which means not getting paid for the effort that went into the crafting revamp; make the costs lower than the alternatives but more time-consuming (i.e. ranking up the schools) and you have a way to keep players occupied (content, two homographs apply equally) with a greater number of folks participating... who spend dilithium, which increases dilithium demand, which makes you money (in addition to the more subtle doff monetization mechanic).
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
But, the entire point of announcing and debuting the crafting revamp was to get us excited; the announcement succeeded and the debut then turned that entirely around to the response we're seeing now.
A large part of the issue is the underlying structure of the proposed crafting system:
1) variable outcomes mean you still don't necessarily get relevant equipment
2) dilithium costs for a variable outcome are still higher than alternative sources of equipment
---a) the "normalizing" of EC and dilithium costs may be an attempt to conceal or "fix" this
3) increasing timers w/dilithium extortion to get the same completion time as the current system
---a) in addition to the dilithium costs of the base item
4) clumsy UI with extraneous crafting steps
---a) current system: gather/purchase materials, make/purchase one schematic, make one item, get item when progress bar fills in ~5 secs; simple double-click to make interface
---b) proposed system: gather/purchase materials, make/purchase multiple component items, make one item, get item after clicking the Collect button after x hrs or pay additional dilithium tax; multiple dropdown selectors that then need their materials requirements to be calculated in a secondary step, with added doff selection and optional "catalyst" slotting in addition to materials inputs
5) adding doff requirements (probably the most tolerable monetization method employed by the new system)
---a) means that you need higher quality doffs to make what you want (increased likelihood of doing General Recruitment and Reassign Underperforming Officers with their added dilithium costs)
---b) need more doff Roster space to accommodate them (available in the C-Store)
---c) specialized doff requirements (available in doff packs in the C-Store and lock boxes) for high-end items
6) someone applied a smartphone app skin to crafting and doffing, and not really an efficient one
For me, the solutions are fairly simple:
1) leave the variable outcomes for base R&D, finish the promised [Mod] customization
2) either remove the dilithium cost from crafting the base items but keep the dilithium costs on the [Mod] customization (there will probably be one, lets not kid ourselves) and timer extortion or keep the dilithium cost on crafting the base items but allow for zero dilithium on the [Mod] customization and give us back the progress bar; the former is more likely, since the latter would make it too easy to bypass dilithium costs by startng with good gear and modifying from there... and *cough* monetization
3) see the preceding suggestion
4) convert current component materials in the item crafting projects to their actual crafting ingredient costs, removing the step where you craft components; depending on the implementation of the suggestion for 2, either no dilithium to worry about or only retain the dilithium components as a crafting step/requirement
5) tolerable, though a more acceptable version might be to require a doff of a minimum quality to the item being crafted, with 2-3 Very Rare doffs needed for Ultra Rare or Gold projects; or remove the doff requirement, but *cough* monetization
6) add a checkbox under the Options menu titles "Tiled Duty Officer and Crafting UI" and allow players to deselect this option to use the old doffing UI; make a crafting UI that more closely follows the current Holodeck doffing UI, and sync the Crafting Schools to the Department Heads to make searching for a particular project more efficient, further tab by item type (look at the Exchange subcategories for Ship Equipment, for an example); rather than grouping R&D projects by CXP subsets, the searchable and collapsible subsections would be by item/damage subtype, while the further tabs would select base item type (Dual Beam Bank, Beam Array, Torpedo, etc.); give us a UI designed to use in-game when we are in-game (not a poor smartphone app), if that is what we choose (but default on the poor smartphone app so new players don't get confused by that vs. the Gateway port; they can't even find their way out of the Clusters, after all); this also assumes implementation of the previous suggestions
---a) suggested Department Heads for Crafting Schools:
First Officer = Carrier Pets and special Projects (Horta and [Mod] customization, for example)
Engineering = Engineering
Operations = Space Consumables, Kits, and Kit Modules (when added)
Science = Science and Shields
Medical = Ground Comsumables (when added)
Tactical = Beams, Cannons, and Projectiles; all Ground Weapons are grouped, do the same with these
Security = Ground Weapons
I don't actually have a problem with *cough* monetization, by the way, I would just like it to be subtle enough that it doesn't actually drive us all away from crafting in the first place. Pick a monetization mechanic to apply to the crafting system, don't monetize every single aspect of it. If the system is more expensive and more uncertain than the alternatives, you will have very few willing to participate, which means no added dilithium demand, which means not getting paid for the effort that went into the crafting revamp; make the costs lower than the alternatives but more time-consuming (i.e. ranking up the schools) and you have a way to keep players occupied (content) with a greater number of folks participating... who spend dilithium, which increases dilithium demand, which makes you money.
Come on now, microtransactions.
I like your ideas. After testing a little and getting aggravated with the mechanics and UI. The current one is more informative to me like a spreadsheet with scrollers in a UI. The new one like a non informative clicky phone app UI
I found a better solution to the change. Just not to craft once its released. Ill just buy fleet gear.
You are creating tailor-made things. Instead of any ol' impulse engine, you're crafting a hyper-impulse. Instead of any ol' beam array, you're crafting a disruptor beam array.
Why would anyone use the crafting system then? Probably to be able to upgrade their purple/fleet/unique equipment or craft things unique to the crafting system. If I'm able to have a yellow-quality MACO set, I'm gonna want my crafting ability high enough to upgrade it.
All I'm saying is if you're going into the R&D system expecting to get better items than what's on your main's ship or just wanting everything to be the best of the best, there's a very real chance that you're going to be disappointed. If you're not expecting to craft that good of an item and will be content with the lowest result, the better-quality items being the result is an awesome bonus. And if you're entering the R&D system to want to get something that you can't get anywhere else, it's irrelevant when you get mulligans. That's all I'm saying.
the way the game currently works is very strongly skill related. the modifiers boost these skills. by controlling the modifiers you can make items that are perfect for your build. where they may drop at a chance of 0.001% you could far more reliably craft them if you are willing to invest in the crafting system. if we could the system would have a it's own justification to exist. right now the system in itself doesn't have that there is something fundamentally wrong whit it. right now these "special items" and upgrades are it's only justification while they can just as easily be the rewards for requisition projects in a new reputation in the rep-system.
randomized reward are fundamentally wrong for a crafting system. the whole point is having control over the outcome. now i can understand if there are costs involved whit that control. as long as that control isn't there it's not a crafting system.
right now the mere fact that rewards are randomized makes this system not be a crafting system and removers it's justification to exist as a game system at the same time.
what do we get here that can't be put in the rep-system instead?
But, the entire point of announcing and debuting the crafting revamp was to get us excited; the announcement succeeded and the debut then turned that entirely around to the response we're seeing now.
A large part of the issue is the underlying structure of the proposed crafting system:
1) variable outcomes mean you still don't necessarily get relevant equipment
2) dilithium costs for a variable outcome are still higher than alternative sources of equipment
---a) the "normalizing" of EC and dilithium costs may be an attempt to conceal or "fix" this
3) increasing timers w/dilithium extortion to get the same completion time as the current system
---a) in addition to the dilithium costs of the base item
4) clumsy UI with extraneous crafting steps
---a) current system: gather/purchase materials, make/purchase one schematic, make one item, get item when progress bar fills in ~5 secs; simple double-click to make interface
---b) proposed system: gather/purchase materials, make/purchase multiple component items, make one item, get item after clicking the Collect button after x hrs or pay additional dilithium tax; multiple dropdown selectors that then need their materials requirements to be calculated in a secondary step, with added doff selection and optional "catalyst" slotting in addition to materials inputs
5) adding doff requirements (probably the most tolerable monetization method employed by the new system)
---a) means that you need higher quality doffs to make what you want (increased likelihood of doing General Recruitment and Reassign Underperforming Officers with their added dilithium costs)
---b) need more doff Roster space to accommodate them (available in the C-Store)
---c) specialized doff requirements (available in doff packs in the C-Store and lock boxes) for high-end items
6) someone applied a smartphone app skin to crafting and doffing, and not really an efficient one
For me, the solutions are fairly simple:
1) leave the variable outcomes for base R&D, finish the promised [Mod] customization
2) either remove the dilithium cost from crafting the base items but keep the dilithium costs on the [Mod] customization (there will probably be one, lets not kid ourselves) and timer extortion or keep the dilithium cost on crafting the base items but allow for zero dilithium on the [Mod] customization and give us back the progress bar; the former is more likely, since the latter would make it too easy to bypass dilithium costs by starting with good gear and modifying from there... and *cough* monetization
3) see the preceding suggestion
4) convert current component materials in the item crafting projects to their actual crafting ingredient costs, removing the step where you craft components; depending on the implementation of the suggestion for 2, either no dilithium to worry about or only retain the dilithium components as a crafting step/requirement
5) tolerable, though a more acceptable version might be to require a doff of a minimum quality to the item being crafted, with 2-3 Very Rare doffs needed for Ultra Rare or Gold projects; or remove the doff requirement, but *cough* monetization
6) add a checkbox under the Options menu titled "Tiled Duty Officer and Crafting UI" and allow players to deselect this option to use the old doffing UI; make a crafting UI that more closely follows the current Holodeck doffing UI, and sync the Crafting Schools to the Department Heads to make searching for a particular project more efficient, further tab by item type (look at the Exchange subcategories for Ship Equipment, for an example); rather than grouping R&D projects by CXP subsets, the searchable and collapsible subsections would be by item/damage subtype, while the further tabs would select base item type (Dual Beam Bank, Beam Array, Torpedo, etc.); give us a UI designed to use in-game when we are in-game (not a poor smartphone app), if that is what we choose (but default on the poor smartphone app so new players don't get confused by that vs. the Gateway port; they can't even find their way out of the Clusters, after all); this also assumes implementation of the previous suggestions
---a) suggested Department Heads for Crafting Schools:
First Officer = Carrier Pets, [Mod] Customization, Special Projects (that do not apply to specific Crafting Schools or Department)
subtabs: Hangar, Customization, Special Projects
Engineering = Engineering
subtabs: Consoles, Engines, Singularity Cores, Warp Cores; Ground Armor; Advanced Engineering R&D (the special stuff goes here, if any)
Operations = Space Consumables, Ground Pets (non-biological only), Kits, and Kit Modules (when added)
subtabs: Consumables; Autonomous Equipment, Kits, Kit Modules; Advanced Operations (the special stuff goes here, if any)
Science = Science and Shields
subtabs: Consoles, Deflectors, Space Shields; Ground Shields; Advanced Science R&D (the special stuff goes here, if any)
Medical = Ground Comsumables (when added), Ground Pets (biological only)
subtabs: Consumables, Xenobiology, Advanced Medical R&D (the special stuff goes here, if any)
Tactical = Beams, Cannons, and Projectiles; all Ground Weapons are grouped, do the same with these
subtabs: Beam Arrays, Dual Beam Banks; Dual Heavy Cannons, Dual Cannons, Single Cannons, Turrets; Torpedoes, Mines; Advanced Tactical R&D (the special stuff goes here, if any)
Security = Ground Weapons
subtabs: Assault, then: Assault Blast, Assault Minigun, Charged Burst, Long-Range Minigun, Pulsewave; Pistols, then: Compression, Dual Pistols, Repeater, Split Beam, Stun, Wide-Beam; Rifles, then: Full-Auto, High Density, Piercing Beam, Sniper, Split Beam, Wide Beam; Advanced Security R&D (the special stuff goes here, if any)
I don't actually have a problem with *cough* monetization, by the way, I would just like it to be subtle enough that it doesn't actually drive us all away from crafting in the first place. Pick a monetization mechanic to apply to the crafting system, don't monetize every single aspect of it. If the system is more expensive and more uncertain than the alternatives, you will have very few willing to participate, which means no added dilithium demand, which means not getting paid for the effort that went into the crafting revamp; make the costs lower than the alternatives but more time-consuming (i.e. ranking up the schools) and you have a way to keep players occupied (content, two homographs apply equally) with a greater number of folks participating... who spend dilithium, which increases dilithium demand, which makes you money (in addition to the more subtle doff monetization mechanic).
Come on now, microtransactions.
a long read but generally i tend to agree whit you.
personally i feel that there should be no dilithium involved in crafting.
dilithium is essentially money in this game. why would i work to create something myself and then still pay money to buy it?
but that is a whole separate discussion.
THE NEW CRAFTING SYSTEM IS TERRA-BAD First of all it's not even a crafting system! It's just a dumb game system that's nothing more than a glorified slots machine.
second the "special items" you hope will be the saving the saving grace are messed up to.
As it stands this is an enormous grind, maybe not so bad by most MMO's standards but by STO standards it eclipses all else.
That's absolutely fine, but there's too little gain. A level 50 like myself has a lot of R&D to do for what amounts to a single interesting item per school. For this to be worth the player's while, there needs to be a substantial increase in the number of cool things to get. They don't even have to be SUPER USEFUL items. Why not, as mentioned elsewhere, weapon skins/outfits? Robot pets and the like. Cosmetic stuff. But I digress, moving on.
I haven't tested this but it seems to me these schools are going to level far more slowly than the characters themselves. STO characters level blazingly fast now, and with the exploration clusters gone it'll basically be a level per episode, with maybe a small handful of patrol missions in between, until the player hits 50. That's pretty quick. There is no way crafting can keep up and stay relevant as the player levels.
I don't know. Consider softening the grind a bit, lengthening player leveling times with more content, or else putting more stuff to look forward to in each crafting level. I got to level 3 in ground weapons -- at great length and expense (or it WILL be expensive anyway when there's no longer a vending machine spitting out Dil) -- and there was absolutely nothing new to make and nothing to look forward to upon hitting 4. With 12 levels to go until I got where I was going. Not worth it, as it stands.
That's absolutely fine, but there's too little gain. A level 50 like myself has a lot of R&D to do for what amounts to a single interesting item per school. For this to be worth the player's while, there needs to be a substantial increase in the number of cool things to get. They don't even have to be SUPER USEFUL items. Why not, as mentioned elsewhere, weapon skins/outfits? Robot pets and the like. Cosmetic stuff. But I digress, moving on.
none of the interesting items really needs to be in the crafting system. you can just as easily place them in the appropriate reputation. things like upgrading maco to ultraviolet can be placed in the omega rep. the ones that cannot be put in a existing rep can be put in a new rep that now exist because memory alpha is compromised. setting up a new decentralized research is going to take a lot of resources. so by helping out you get the latest tech including the upgraded aegis. what do we really need this system for?
I'd love for a dev to answer these questions.
what is the added value of the new crafting system without the special items?
why didn't you just place these new items in the rep system? (please don't answer whit there need to be something to draw the players into crafting or something similar)
why did you chose this chance related approach? why not give the players more control?
I don't want to harass cryptic and/or the devs whit this but I think that they are making a huge mistake. maybe they have good reason for making these choices but I don't understand them so the explanation can help put me at ease.
my main character is a FED science captain in a Vesta. In groups I mainly CC NPCs whit gravity well and tykes rift. (to make it easier for the escorts to pick em off)
now say I wanted to craft a new deflector. what I would prefer to make is a: MK XII Graviton Deflector Array [Gra][SubD][PrtG]
if the system is set up in a way that I can get this precise outcome it would be a truly great system that's adding value to the game. even if I am restricted to make this item by my level in certain schools, the requirement of multiple doff's whit different specializations all at a minimum quality (blue or better perhaps) and considerably more components used than if i let most of these factors be random.
still I may be better of just getting adapted maco from the omega-rep but this adds value to the game that can't be found in other systems even if it's not necessarily super useful.
because of the chance related approach it's not a crafting system and it's not adding anything tho the game that cannot be added elsewhere more appropriate. as long as it's chance related we don't need this system. because as you said there is to little to gain. adding more stuff to a broken system will sadly not fix it.
it all comes down to it that cryptic needs to fix the fundamental flaw whit the system: the chance related approach. what the system then does doesn't need to be super useful but just add functionality that we can't get elsewhere. then add the special items and upgrades planned and possibly (later) the by players suggested weapon skins/outfits, Robot pets and the like, Cosmetic stuff, etc. and STO is bound to get an awesome new addition that many other MMO's will envy.
I haven't tested this but it seems to me these schools are going to level far more slowly than the characters themselves. STO characters level blazingly fast now, and with the exploration clusters gone it'll basically be a level per episode, with maybe a small handful of patrol missions in between, until the player hits 50. That's pretty quick. There is no way crafting can keep up and stay relevant as the player levels.
personally I would progress trough it only on my main and craft whit that character for leveling alts. making the items account bound will than be a huge help.
I don't know. Consider softening the grind a bit, lengthening player leveling times with more content, or else putting more stuff to look forward to in each crafting level. I got to level 3 in ground weapons -- at great length and expense (or it WILL be expensive anyway when there's no longer a vending machine spitting out Dil) -- and there was absolutely nothing new to make and nothing to look forward to upon hitting 4. With 12 levels to go until I got where I was going. Not worth it, as it stands.
Just my thoughts.
that just another reason why we must not get everything at level 0 but unlock more options as we level up. a sense of progression. not only that but trying to make a MK XII at level 0 is a mistake. sometimes you need to limit what your players can do to prevent them from making mistakes even those a obvious as this one.
If it was up to me i'd limit the players in the following way for each school:
level 0 start whit Mk 1&2 white items only
level 1 unlock green quality (the first school at this level unlocks an additional slot all are unlocked as normal)
level 2 unlock MK 3 & 4
level 3 unlock a modifier
level 4 unlock MK 5 & 6 (the first school at this level unlocks Deconstruction)
level 6 unlock a modifier
level 7 unlock MK 7 & 8
level 8 unlock blue quality
level 9 unlock MK 9 & 10
level 10 unlock a modifier
level 11 unlock MK 11
level 12 unlock a modifier
level 13 unlock MK 12
level 14 unlock all modifiers
level 15 unlock purple quality (the level cryptic expects the average player to be at)
level 16 unlock the ability to change modifiers
level 17 unlock upgrading to ultraviolet for select items
level 18 unlock crafting trait
level 19 unlock unique visuals
level 20 unlock upgrading to gold for select items and accolade (max level)
THE NEW CRAFTING SYSTEM IS TERRA-BAD First of all it's not even a crafting system! It's just a dumb game system that's nothing more than a glorified slots machine.
second the "special items" you hope will be the saving the saving grace are messed up to.
After having played around with the system for a bit. I fully agree with OP, the new R&D isn't crafting, it's a slots machine.
The only thing I got to look forward to is a few of the special items, but with how the current system is set up, I might just end up buying them from someone else instead.
So please! DO NOT PUT THIS SYSTEM ON LIVE! It is an awful mess and needs major a rework!
Please allow people to select quality!
Allow people to select mods!
Lower the grind amount needed or adjust/lower the XP demands between levels (Currently its hitting a wall after the first few levels, "effort vs progress and gain" doesn't add up).
Add disassemble/reverse engineering of items for components.
Allow recrafting and modifieing of items to change [mods].
Love this suggestion by mistressbenihime, atleast this gives a reason to use the new system, instead of hoping for the right outcome, here you gotta work for it.
If it was up to me i'd limit the players in the following way for each school:
level 0 start whit Mk 1&2 white items only
level 1 unlock green quality (the first school at this level unlocks an additional slot all are unlocked as normal)
level 2 unlock MK 3 & 4
level 3 unlock a modifier
level 4 unlock MK 5 & 6 (the first school at this level unlocks Deconstruction)
level 6 unlock a modifier
level 7 unlock MK 7 & 8
level 8 unlock blue quality
level 9 unlock MK 9 & 10
level 10 unlock a modifier
level 11 unlock MK 11
level 12 unlock a modifier
level 13 unlock MK 12
level 14 unlock all modifiers
level 15 unlock purple quality (the level cryptic expects the average player to be at)
level 16 unlock the ability to change modifiers
level 17 unlock upgrading to ultraviolet for select items
level 18 unlock crafting trait
level 19 unlock unique visuals
level 20 unlock upgrading to gold for select items and accolade (max level)
Honestly, the crafting system in its current state reminds me of the old STF reward system.
Anyone remember the old STF reward system? Before they added the items to buy the sets for. A random player that ran each mission for first time, could get the full sets dispite the fact they never helped or did everything wrong. While others who ran each mission over a 150 times flawlessly never saw any of the set parts.
"Please, Captain, not in front of the Klingons." Spock to Kirk, as Kirk is about to hug him.
Star Trek V: "The Final Frontier"
Honestly, the crafting system in its current state reminds me of the old STF reward system.
Anyone remember the old STF reward system? Before they added the items to buy the sets for. A random player that ran each mission for first time, could get the full sets dispite the fact they never helped or did everything wrong. While others who ran each mission over a 150 times flawlessly never saw any of the set parts.
Haha I was one of those who had to nearly 100 mission till i got all the parts. :P
After having played around with the system for a bit. I fully agree with OP, the new R&D isn't crafting, it's a slots machine.
The only thing I got to look forward to is a few of the special items, but with how the current system is set up, I might just end up buying them from someone else instead.
that's the conclusion i expect many more to reach when this goes live.
cryptic as the game designers can force us to play the way they want. If the new system offers functionality that cant be found elsewhere in the game players will naturally use it. if not many will make the same decision you make and not use it at all. setting cryptic up for the 4th crafting revamp.
worse is that even those are subject to chance I've written a topic about that. it's the same basic complaint but more focused on the matter that if you can crit to get better it makes the normal items sub-par by the mere existence of better possibilities.
So please! DO NOT PUT THIS SYSTEM ON LIVE! It is an awful mess and needs major a rework!
it's not an awful mess but it does have fundamental flaw that that warrants major rework. I haven't been saying this enough i think but the UI is clean, intuitive and offers a good oversight. Using doff's to time-gate the crafting system is something I've been saying for over a year on the forums. starting whit materials that are used to make components that can in turn be used to create the items is something that i would probably have done myself. the system will be really good once they fix this fundamental flaw by taking out the randomness.
Please allow people to select quality!
Allow people to select mods!
Lower the grind amount needed or adjust/lower the XP demands between levels (Currently its hitting a wall after the first few levels, "effort vs progress and gain" doesn't add up).
Add disassemble/reverse engineering of items for components.
Allow recrafting and modifieing of items to change [mods].
I hope STO to still be around in 5 or 10 years and even more. so what if it takes 3 years to fully progress through this system has to last way longer than that!
Love this suggestion by mistressbenihime, atleast this gives a reason to use the new system, instead of hoping for the right outcome, here you gotta work for it.
thank you you realize i am both the OP as the person that made this suggestion :cool:
I couldn't answer that better then this guy.
to make or manufacture (an object or objects) with great skill and care.
by doing it that way we have a sense of progression because we see the increase in our skill reflected in our ability to create more diverse and better items.
buy taking out the randomness we are allowed to manufacture whit great care.
Honestly, the crafting system in its current state reminds me of the old STF reward system.
Anyone remember the old STF reward system? Before they added the items to buy the sets for. A random player that ran each mission for first time, could get the full sets dispite the fact they never helped or did everything wrong. While others who ran each mission over a 150 times flawlessly never saw any of the set parts.
I was so happy when they changed that. I've been a lifetime subscriber since launch and I've played during beta. I seen this game improve so much over the last for years I can hardly believe it. I'd like the new crafting system to be part of that but to get there a lot of work needs to be done.
once the basis is right cryptic can keep expending it indefinably but right now the basis of the crafting system need to be majorly improved.
THE NEW CRAFTING SYSTEM IS TERRA-BAD First of all it's not even a crafting system! It's just a dumb game system that's nothing more than a glorified slots machine.
second the "special items" you hope will be the saving the saving grace are messed up to.
Crafting in MMO's almost always has an RNG. Anyone who has played an MMO in the last 15 years knows this. Better start praying! :rolleyes:
really most MMO's I've played have had rather predictable outcomes when it came to crafting.
WoW: just has a shop 100% predictable but not really crafting either.
SWTOR: generally reliable where item creation is concerned. (deconstruction and gathering are other matters)
ESO: 100% control If it can exist in the game it can be crafted! the only exception being a few enchants and visuals from dungeon drops. usually these need to be upgraded though crafting to get peak efficiency. ESO has the pinnacle of crafting for MMO's.
EVE: mining and fabricating can be all you do when you are online if you wish. if that is how you chose to progress than that's what you do to contribute to your corporation and get rich. (you miss out on the fun of combat but if that's how you like it) once you have the proper blueprints the outcomes are 100% reliable.
GW2: has a system very similar to what is on tribble at the moment the major difference is that the GW2 system offers full control over the outcome and we get a dumb RNG. It just takes buying one copy to stake out your competitor forever cryptic since GW2 is F2P as well after buying your account. It's a system I really like and i wish the current build will be changed to resemble it even more closely better.
so no, most recent MMO's offer control and very little RNG when it comes to crafting.
THE NEW CRAFTING SYSTEM IS TERRA-BAD First of all it's not even a crafting system! It's just a dumb game system that's nothing more than a glorified slots machine.
second the "special items" you hope will be the saving the saving grace are messed up to.
Green items will now be created slightly less often when player Skill Rating is exactly equal to Difficulty Rating.
Green items will now be completely eliminated from R+D results when player Skill Rating exceeds Difficulty Rating by at least 50 points.
Once both Green and White items have been eliminated from the possible R+D results, Blue outcomes will begin to be eliminated at a faster rate than before.
If a player's Skill Rating exceeds the Difficulty Rating of a project by an extremely large amount, it is now possible to completely eliminate Blue items from the possible outcomes.
Ultrarare chances on high-end crafting recipes now require less total Skill Rating to craft, but the rate at which Ultrarare chance increases is lower than it was before.
let's sum up.
MK XII items have a difficulty level of 180.
each level increases the player skill rating by 10
white Doffs offer no increase in skill level
green Doffs offer a +5 increase of skill level
blue Doffs offer a +15 increase of skill level
purple Doffs offer a +30 increase in skill level
so that makes level 20 in a school plus a purple Doff 10x20+30=200+30=230 player skill
230 player skill -180 difficulty level=50
this is the maximum you can have! and it only eliminates green and white items.
you can never eliminate the chance of a sub-par blue item without using C-tore bought Catalysts!
that just pure pay to win. If the possibility exist to be so good that you can reliably craft the highest rarity whit a lot more effort but the catalyst is a shortcut than it's okay, if not it's pay to win and that's neither fun nor good.
you all realize that this also applies to the chance of crafting ultra-rare(ultraviolet) versions to the special items.
on which they state:
Ultra-rare chances on high-end crafting recipes now require less total Skill Rating to craft, but the rate at which Ultra-rare chance increases is lower than it was before.
this means you get to start out whit a little higher chance but increasing your chances is made harder.
I read this as:
Eliminating purple is going to be even more difficult(require even more skill) and require more catalysts but to fool you into thinking that were doing you a favor we increase the base chance.
THE NEW CRAFTING SYSTEM IS TERRA-BAD First of all it's not even a crafting system! It's just a dumb game system that's nothing more than a glorified slots machine.
second the "special items" you hope will be the saving the saving grace are messed up to.
the current crafting system is noting more than a glorified slots machine.
They replaced a "store with a special currency" with a gambling machine.
How I think it should work:
You can craft basic, white-quality items
You can add mods (that you chose) to those items (which increases the rarity)
The more mods the item has, the more expensive (materials/dil/etc) it is to add an additional mod (up to a maximum of 5, obviously). In the case of consoles, you would just directly upgrade their rarity, since they have no mods.
You can also remove mods from items, decreasing the rarity.
And maybe you can only adjust the mods on items which are crafted, not those that are dropped or received via other means
I'd also love to see the ability to craft additional types of weapons (particularly hybrid space energy weapons), once you get to a high enough rank (and maybe reputation weapons, with the requisite rep rank? =D /wishfulthinking).
They replaced a "store with a special currency" with a gambling machine.
100% true. so in effect we are taking a step back instead of moving forward and improving. were going to be worse off then before and the devs probably proud of it.
You can add mods (that you chose) to those items (which increases the rarity)
The more mods the item has, the more expensive (materials/dil/etc) it is to add an additional mod (up to a maximum of 5, obviously). In the case of consoles, you would just directly upgrade their rarity, since they have no mods.
You can also remove mods from items, decreasing the rarity.
that looks a whole lot like the ESO crafting system I was referencing in the OP. It could totally work though there is one small problem. when you increase rarity you do more that adding a mod. you also increase the base stats an the stats of other mods. not very problematic but worth considering.
And maybe you can only adjust the mods on items which are crafted, not those that are dropped or received via other means
by not allowing us to change dropped item we will then only use them to deconstruct to create crafted items that are superior (due to them being perfect). while a small tweak can take the imperfections out of dropped item and make them just as good.
how much chance do you have of say: a purple MK 12 dual heavy cannon dropping of the right damage type and all 3 modifiers being exactly what you want? it's very slim but if its at least the right damage type and MK12 we could at the cost of components increase rarity and exchange modifiers we can make it perfect for ourselves.
set items from the rep-system are a completely different matter though.
I'd also love to see the ability to craft additional types of weapons (particularly hybrid space energy weapons), once you get to a high enough rank (and maybe reputation weapons, with the requisite rep rank? =D /wishfulthinking).
yes what is eventually to stop the devs from adding an item to the New Romules reputation store that is a requirement for crafting Romulan plasma weapons (that have both the plasma and disruptor proc)? preferably for say 50 to 100 marks?
the same whit a item that allows the [borg] modifier to be crafted from the omega rep store. (or even better an automatic frequency remodulator so borg cant adapt to that weapon)
technically they could even allow us to craft the set items this way. however that bring a whole other set of problems whit them the possibilities it brings are amazing. Assimilated Covariant Shield Array [Cap}x2 that still counts to the set bonus....
(sacrificing one modifier to get a increase in regeneration, +5 to shield power, 15%plasma resist and count to set bonus; real good compared to just the normal modifier)
but before all these kind of wild dreams can be made true the basis of the system needs to be properly done and to do that the randomness has to go!
THE NEW CRAFTING SYSTEM IS TERRA-BAD First of all it's not even a crafting system! It's just a dumb game system that's nothing more than a glorified slots machine.
second the "special items" you hope will be the saving the saving grace are messed up to.
Lets be honest about this. STO's crafting system as it stands now and in 9.5from all I have seen is useless. I have played a lot of games with crafting and research elements in it. Honestly I would have to say that STO's is one of the worst. The Doffs, Dilith, items, items to make items, time it takes in waiting and Zen needed to craft something that will most likely be in another Rep system sooner or later if not surpassed by ship consoles or fleet weapons is just mind blowing. Even then after all that to wind up pulling the handle on what is pretty much a in game slot machine surly tells me to stay away. It does not feel like discovery but more like a grueling long winded task. Their is so much that could be done with Star Trek Crafting, I mean come on its Star Trek!
Let us build rooms in our ships/star bases. Like new Labs to craft in or develop new tec for our ships/star bases/fleets that would use a lot of crafting skill if you thought about it logically.
Make a UI to see what players are researching then base items off that. If 25% of the players are looking into warp theory then put up some ship add on that makes people who research that go faster in sector space.
You could still keep the older system to get people going and build skill along with Doff's but expand on things. You don't have to make our crafting system like all the other MMO's. I honestly think that's why people dislike it so. You could even have Faction Crafting Projects and or Fleet.
The possibilities are endless but where we are now is a dead end.
I'd still like the ability to create some of the special unlocked weapon types too for this stuff.
Oh I never said that those shouldn't come. I am only saying that it shouldn't come in this form.
What I am saying is that this system Itself is not needed. those rewards can be provided better though other systems like the reps system.
right now Crypic dangles these Items in front of us to get us to use this broken system, because there is no other way to gain them. there is no good reason to use this system for anything else than those items. the system itself has no value Cryptic knows this and that's why the items are there. Cryptic is just tricking us into using it whit these items. I don't want this system and these wonderful new rewards should be put in a new reputation for the rep system instead.
THE NEW CRAFTING SYSTEM IS TERRA-BAD First of all it's not even a crafting system! It's just a dumb game system that's nothing more than a glorified slots machine.
second the "special items" you hope will be the saving the saving grace are messed up to.
Comments
Should I list every time a developer said something and it never came to pass or it did come to pass but in a form that thoroughly screwed the playerbase?
Yeah . . . but I tend to think of Crypic as used starship salesmen when it comes to things like this. They will tell you all the great and wonderful things that are coming but tend to ignore/ gloss over the nerfs. By the time the players have played actual content and crunched the numbers, its too late.
Not sure if you're making a joke about Lowered Expectations...
But, the entire point of announcing and debuting the crafting revamp was to get us excited; the announcement succeeded and the debut then turned that entirely around to the response we're seeing now.
A large part of the issue is the underlying structure of the proposed crafting system:
1) variable outcomes mean you still don't necessarily get relevant equipment
2) dilithium costs for a variable outcome are still higher than alternative sources of equipment
---a) the "normalizing" of EC and dilithium costs may be an attempt to conceal or "fix" this
3) increasing timers w/dilithium extortion to get the same completion time as the current system
---a) in addition to the dilithium costs of the base item
4) clumsy UI with extraneous crafting steps
---a) current system: gather/purchase materials, make/purchase one schematic, make one item, get item when progress bar fills in ~5 secs; simple double-click to make interface
---b) proposed system: gather/purchase materials, make/purchase multiple component items, make one item, get item after clicking the Collect button after x hrs or pay additional dilithium tax; multiple dropdown selectors that then need their materials requirements to be calculated in a secondary step, with added doff selection and optional "catalyst" slotting in addition to materials inputs
5) adding doff requirements (probably the most tolerable monetization method employed by the new system)
---a) means that you need higher quality doffs to make what you want (increased likelihood of doing General Recruitment and Reassign Underperforming Officers with their added dilithium costs)
---b) need more doff Roster space to accommodate them (available in the C-Store)
---c) specialized doff requirements (available in doff packs in the C-Store and lock boxes) for high-end items
6) someone applied a smartphone app skin to crafting and doffing, and not really an efficient one
For me, the solutions are fairly simple:
1) leave the variable outcomes for base R&D, finish the promised [Mod] customization
2) either remove the dilithium cost from crafting the base items but keep the dilithium costs on the [Mod] customization (there will probably be one, lets not kid ourselves) and timer extortion or keep the dilithium cost on crafting the base items but allow for zero dilithium on the [Mod] customization and give us back the progress bar; the former is more likely, since the latter would make it too easy to bypass dilithium costs by starting with good gear and modifying from there... and *cough* monetization
3) see the preceding suggestion
4) convert current component materials in the item crafting projects to their actual crafting ingredient costs, removing the step where you craft components; depending on the implementation of the suggestion for 2, either no dilithium to worry about or only retain the dilithium components as a crafting step/requirement
5) tolerable, though a more acceptable version might be to require a doff of a minimum quality to the item being crafted, with 2-3 Very Rare doffs needed for Ultra Rare or Gold projects; or remove the doff requirement, but *cough* monetization
6) add a checkbox under the Options menu titled "Tiled Duty Officer and Crafting UI" and allow players to deselect this option to use the old doffing UI; make a crafting UI that more closely follows the current Holodeck doffing UI, and sync the Crafting Schools to the Department Heads to make searching for a particular project more efficient, further tab by item type (look at the Exchange subcategories for Ship Equipment, for an example); rather than grouping R&D projects by CXP subsets, the searchable and collapsible subsections would be by item/damage subtype, while the further tabs would select base item type (Dual Beam Bank, Beam Array, Torpedo, etc.); give us a UI designed to use in-game when we are in-game (not a poor smartphone app), if that is what we choose (but default on the poor smartphone app so new players don't get confused by that vs. the Gateway port; they can't even find their way out of the Clusters, after all); this also assumes implementation of the previous suggestions
---a) suggested Department Heads for Crafting Schools:
First Officer = Carrier Pets, [Mod] Customization, Special Projects (that do not apply to specific Crafting Schools or Department)
subtabs: Hangar, Customization, Special Projects
Engineering = Engineering
subtabs: Consoles, Engines, Singularity Cores, Warp Cores; Ground Armor; Advanced Engineering R&D (the special stuff goes here, if any)
Operations = Space Consumables, Ground Pets (non-biological only), Kits, and Kit Modules (when added)
subtabs: Consumables; Autonomous Equipment, Kits, Kit Modules; Advanced Operations (the special stuff goes here, if any)
Science = Science and Shields
subtabs: Consoles, Deflectors, Space Shields; Ground Shields; Advanced Science R&D (the special stuff goes here, if any)
Medical = Ground Comsumables (when added), Ground Pets (biological only)
subtabs: Consumables, Xenobiology, Advanced Medical R&D (the special stuff goes here, if any)
Tactical = Beams, Cannons, and Projectiles; all Ground Weapons are grouped, do the same with these
subtabs: Beam Arrays, Dual Beam Banks; Dual Heavy Cannons, Dual Cannons, Single Cannons, Turrets; Torpedoes, Mines; Advanced Tactical R&D (the special stuff goes here, if any)
Security = Ground Weapons
subtabs: Assault, then: Assault Blast, Assault Minigun, Charged Burst, Long-Range Minigun, Pulsewave; Pistols, then: Compression, Dual Pistols, Repeater, Split Beam, Stun, Wide-Beam; Rifles, then: Full-Auto, High Density, Piercing Beam, Sniper, Split Beam, Wide Beam; Advanced Security R&D (the special stuff goes here, if any)
I don't actually have a problem with *cough* monetization, by the way, I would just like it to be subtle enough that it doesn't actually drive us all away from crafting in the first place. Pick a monetization mechanic to apply to the crafting system, don't monetize every single aspect of it. If the system is more expensive and more uncertain than the alternatives, you will have very few willing to participate, which means no added dilithium demand, which means not getting paid for the effort that went into the crafting revamp; make the costs lower than the alternatives but more time-consuming (i.e. ranking up the schools) and you have a way to keep players occupied (content, two homographs apply equally) with a greater number of folks participating... who spend dilithium, which increases dilithium demand, which makes you money (in addition to the more subtle doff monetization mechanic).
Come on now, microtransactions.
I like your ideas. After testing a little and getting aggravated with the mechanics and UI. The current one is more informative to me like a spreadsheet with scrollers in a UI. The new one like a non informative clicky phone app UI
I found a better solution to the change. Just not to craft once its released. Ill just buy fleet gear.
the way the game currently works is very strongly skill related. the modifiers boost these skills. by controlling the modifiers you can make items that are perfect for your build. where they may drop at a chance of 0.001% you could far more reliably craft them if you are willing to invest in the crafting system. if we could the system would have a it's own justification to exist. right now the system in itself doesn't have that there is something fundamentally wrong whit it. right now these "special items" and upgrades are it's only justification while they can just as easily be the rewards for requisition projects in a new reputation in the rep-system.
randomized reward are fundamentally wrong for a crafting system. the whole point is having control over the outcome. now i can understand if there are costs involved whit that control. as long as that control isn't there it's not a crafting system.
right now the mere fact that rewards are randomized makes this system not be a crafting system and removers it's justification to exist as a game system at the same time.
what do we get here that can't be put in the rep-system instead?
a long read but generally i tend to agree whit you.
personally i feel that there should be no dilithium involved in crafting.
dilithium is essentially money in this game. why would i work to create something myself and then still pay money to buy it?
but that is a whole separate discussion.
First of all it's not even a crafting system! It's just a dumb game system that's nothing more than a glorified slots machine.
second the "special items" you hope will be the saving the saving grace are messed up to.
That's absolutely fine, but there's too little gain. A level 50 like myself has a lot of R&D to do for what amounts to a single interesting item per school. For this to be worth the player's while, there needs to be a substantial increase in the number of cool things to get. They don't even have to be SUPER USEFUL items. Why not, as mentioned elsewhere, weapon skins/outfits? Robot pets and the like. Cosmetic stuff. But I digress, moving on.
I haven't tested this but it seems to me these schools are going to level far more slowly than the characters themselves. STO characters level blazingly fast now, and with the exploration clusters gone it'll basically be a level per episode, with maybe a small handful of patrol missions in between, until the player hits 50. That's pretty quick. There is no way crafting can keep up and stay relevant as the player levels.
I don't know. Consider softening the grind a bit, lengthening player leveling times with more content, or else putting more stuff to look forward to in each crafting level. I got to level 3 in ground weapons -- at great length and expense (or it WILL be expensive anyway when there's no longer a vending machine spitting out Dil) -- and there was absolutely nothing new to make and nothing to look forward to upon hitting 4. With 12 levels to go until I got where I was going. Not worth it, as it stands.
Just my thoughts.
personally I don't have much of a problem whit the fact that it's going to be a grind. we need to have something to do when we log in.
none of the interesting items really needs to be in the crafting system. you can just as easily place them in the appropriate reputation. things like upgrading maco to ultraviolet can be placed in the omega rep. the ones that cannot be put in a existing rep can be put in a new rep that now exist because memory alpha is compromised. setting up a new decentralized research is going to take a lot of resources. so by helping out you get the latest tech including the upgraded aegis. what do we really need this system for?
I'd love for a dev to answer these questions.
- what is the added value of the new crafting system without the special items?
- why didn't you just place these new items in the rep system? (please don't answer whit there need to be something to draw the players into crafting or something similar)
- why did you chose this chance related approach? why not give the players more control?
I don't want to harass cryptic and/or the devs whit this but I think that they are making a huge mistake. maybe they have good reason for making these choices but I don't understand them so the explanation can help put me at ease.my main character is a FED science captain in a Vesta. In groups I mainly CC NPCs whit gravity well and tykes rift. (to make it easier for the escorts to pick em off)
now say I wanted to craft a new deflector. what I would prefer to make is a:
MK XII Graviton Deflector Array [Gra][SubD][PrtG]
if the system is set up in a way that I can get this precise outcome it would be a truly great system that's adding value to the game. even if I am restricted to make this item by my level in certain schools, the requirement of multiple doff's whit different specializations all at a minimum quality (blue or better perhaps) and considerably more components used than if i let most of these factors be random.
still I may be better of just getting adapted maco from the omega-rep but this adds value to the game that can't be found in other systems even if it's not necessarily super useful.
because of the chance related approach it's not a crafting system and it's not adding anything tho the game that cannot be added elsewhere more appropriate. as long as it's chance related we don't need this system. because as you said there is to little to gain. adding more stuff to a broken system will sadly not fix it.
it all comes down to it that cryptic needs to fix the fundamental flaw whit the system: the chance related approach. what the system then does doesn't need to be super useful but just add functionality that we can't get elsewhere. then add the special items and upgrades planned and possibly (later) the by players suggested weapon skins/outfits, Robot pets and the like, Cosmetic stuff, etc. and STO is bound to get an awesome new addition that many other MMO's will envy.
personally I would progress trough it only on my main and craft whit that character for leveling alts. making the items account bound will than be a huge help.
that just another reason why we must not get everything at level 0 but unlock more options as we level up. a sense of progression. not only that but trying to make a MK XII at level 0 is a mistake. sometimes you need to limit what your players can do to prevent them from making mistakes even those a obvious as this one.
If it was up to me i'd limit the players in the following way for each school:
level 0 start whit Mk 1&2 white items only
level 1 unlock green quality (the first school at this level unlocks an additional slot all are unlocked as normal)
level 2 unlock MK 3 & 4
level 3 unlock a modifier
level 4 unlock MK 5 & 6 (the first school at this level unlocks Deconstruction)
level 6 unlock a modifier
level 7 unlock MK 7 & 8
level 8 unlock blue quality
level 9 unlock MK 9 & 10
level 10 unlock a modifier
level 11 unlock MK 11
level 12 unlock a modifier
level 13 unlock MK 12
level 14 unlock all modifiers
level 15 unlock purple quality (the level cryptic expects the average player to be at)
level 16 unlock the ability to change modifiers
level 17 unlock upgrading to ultraviolet for select items
level 18 unlock crafting trait
level 19 unlock unique visuals
level 20 unlock upgrading to gold for select items and accolade (max level)
First of all it's not even a crafting system! It's just a dumb game system that's nothing more than a glorified slots machine.
second the "special items" you hope will be the saving the saving grace are messed up to.
The only thing I got to look forward to is a few of the special items, but with how the current system is set up, I might just end up buying them from someone else instead.
So please! DO NOT PUT THIS SYSTEM ON LIVE! It is an awful mess and needs major a rework!
Please allow people to select quality!
Allow people to select mods!
Lower the grind amount needed or adjust/lower the XP demands between levels (Currently its hitting a wall after the first few levels, "effort vs progress and gain" doesn't add up).
Add disassemble/reverse engineering of items for components.
Allow recrafting and modifieing of items to change [mods].
Love this suggestion by mistressbenihime, atleast this gives a reason to use the new system, instead of hoping for the right outcome, here you gotta work for it.
Honestly, the crafting system in its current state reminds me of the old STF reward system.
Anyone remember the old STF reward system? Before they added the items to buy the sets for. A random player that ran each mission for first time, could get the full sets dispite the fact they never helped or did everything wrong. While others who ran each mission over a 150 times flawlessly never saw any of the set parts.
Spock to Kirk, as Kirk is about to hug him.
Star Trek V: "The Final Frontier"
Haha I was one of those who had to nearly 100 mission till i got all the parts. :P
that's the conclusion i expect many more to reach when this goes live.
cryptic as the game designers can force us to play the way they want. If the new system offers functionality that cant be found elsewhere in the game players will naturally use it. if not many will make the same decision you make and not use it at all. setting cryptic up for the 4th crafting revamp.
worse is that even those are subject to chance I've written a topic about that. it's the same basic complaint but more focused on the matter that if you can crit to get better it makes the normal items sub-par by the mere existence of better possibilities.
it's not an awful mess but it does have fundamental flaw that that warrants major rework. I haven't been saying this enough i think but the UI is clean, intuitive and offers a good oversight. Using doff's to time-gate the crafting system is something I've been saying for over a year on the forums. starting whit materials that are used to make components that can in turn be used to create the items is something that i would probably have done myself. the system will be really good once they fix this fundamental flaw by taking out the randomness.
I hope STO to still be around in 5 or 10 years and even more. so what if it takes 3 years to fully progress through this system has to last way longer than that!
thank you you realize i am both the OP as the person that made this suggestion :cool:
I couldn't answer that better then this guy.
by doing it that way we have a sense of progression because we see the increase in our skill reflected in our ability to create more diverse and better items.
buy taking out the randomness we are allowed to manufacture whit great care.
I was so happy when they changed that. I've been a lifetime subscriber since launch and I've played during beta. I seen this game improve so much over the last for years I can hardly believe it. I'd like the new crafting system to be part of that but to get there a lot of work needs to be done.
once the basis is right cryptic can keep expending it indefinably but right now the basis of the crafting system need to be majorly improved.
First of all it's not even a crafting system! It's just a dumb game system that's nothing more than a glorified slots machine.
second the "special items" you hope will be the saving the saving grace are messed up to.
really most MMO's I've played have had rather predictable outcomes when it came to crafting.
WoW: just has a shop 100% predictable but not really crafting either.
SWTOR: generally reliable where item creation is concerned. (deconstruction and gathering are other matters)
ESO: 100% control If it can exist in the game it can be crafted! the only exception being a few enchants and visuals from dungeon drops. usually these need to be upgraded though crafting to get peak efficiency. ESO has the pinnacle of crafting for MMO's.
EVE: mining and fabricating can be all you do when you are online if you wish. if that is how you chose to progress than that's what you do to contribute to your corporation and get rich. (you miss out on the fun of combat but if that's how you like it) once you have the proper blueprints the outcomes are 100% reliable.
GW2: has a system very similar to what is on tribble at the moment the major difference is that the GW2 system offers full control over the outcome and we get a dumb RNG. It just takes buying one copy to stake out your competitor forever cryptic since GW2 is F2P as well after buying your account. It's a system I really like and i wish the current build will be changed to resemble it even more closely better.
so no, most recent MMO's offer control and very little RNG when it comes to crafting.
First of all it's not even a crafting system! It's just a dumb game system that's nothing more than a glorified slots machine.
second the "special items" you hope will be the saving the saving grace are messed up to.
let's sum up.
so that makes level 20 in a school plus a purple Doff 10x20+30=200+30=230 player skill
230 player skill -180 difficulty level=50
this is the maximum you can have! and it only eliminates green and white items.
you can never eliminate the chance of a sub-par blue item without using C-tore bought Catalysts!
that just pure pay to win. If the possibility exist to be so good that you can reliably craft the highest rarity whit a lot more effort but the catalyst is a shortcut than it's okay, if not it's pay to win and that's neither fun nor good.
you all realize that this also applies to the chance of crafting ultra-rare(ultraviolet) versions to the special items.
on which they state: this means you get to start out whit a little higher chance but increasing your chances is made harder.
I read this as:
Eliminating purple is going to be even more difficult(require even more skill) and require more catalysts but to fool you into thinking that were doing you a favor we increase the base chance.
First of all it's not even a crafting system! It's just a dumb game system that's nothing more than a glorified slots machine.
second the "special items" you hope will be the saving the saving grace are messed up to.
They replaced a "store with a special currency" with a gambling machine.
How I think it should work:
And maybe you can only adjust the mods on items which are crafted, not those that are dropped or received via other means
I'd also love to see the ability to craft additional types of weapons (particularly hybrid space energy weapons), once you get to a high enough rank (and maybe reputation weapons, with the requisite rep rank? =D /wishfulthinking).
100% true. so in effect we are taking a step back instead of moving forward and improving. were going to be worse off then before and the devs probably proud of it.
that looks a whole lot like the ESO crafting system I was referencing in the OP. It could totally work though there is one small problem. when you increase rarity you do more that adding a mod. you also increase the base stats an the stats of other mods. not very problematic but worth considering.
by not allowing us to change dropped item we will then only use them to deconstruct to create crafted items that are superior (due to them being perfect). while a small tweak can take the imperfections out of dropped item and make them just as good.
how much chance do you have of say: a purple MK 12 dual heavy cannon dropping of the right damage type and all 3 modifiers being exactly what you want? it's very slim but if its at least the right damage type and MK12 we could at the cost of components increase rarity and exchange modifiers we can make it perfect for ourselves.
set items from the rep-system are a completely different matter though.
yes what is eventually to stop the devs from adding an item to the New Romules reputation store that is a requirement for crafting Romulan plasma weapons (that have both the plasma and disruptor proc)? preferably for say 50 to 100 marks?
the same whit a item that allows the [borg] modifier to be crafted from the omega rep store. (or even better an automatic frequency remodulator so borg cant adapt to that weapon)
technically they could even allow us to craft the set items this way. however that bring a whole other set of problems whit them the possibilities it brings are amazing.
Assimilated Covariant Shield Array [Cap}x2 that still counts to the set bonus....
(sacrificing one modifier to get a increase in regeneration, +5 to shield power, 15%plasma resist and count to set bonus; real good compared to just the normal modifier)
but before all these kind of wild dreams can be made true the basis of the system needs to be properly done and to do that the randomness has to go!
First of all it's not even a crafting system! It's just a dumb game system that's nothing more than a glorified slots machine.
second the "special items" you hope will be the saving the saving grace are messed up to.
Let us build rooms in our ships/star bases. Like new Labs to craft in or develop new tec for our ships/star bases/fleets that would use a lot of crafting skill if you thought about it logically.
Make a UI to see what players are researching then base items off that. If 25% of the players are looking into warp theory then put up some ship add on that makes people who research that go faster in sector space.
You could still keep the older system to get people going and build skill along with Doff's but expand on things. You don't have to make our crafting system like all the other MMO's. I honestly think that's why people dislike it so. You could even have Faction Crafting Projects and or Fleet.
The possibilities are endless but where we are now is a dead end.
Oh I never said that those shouldn't come. I am only saying that it shouldn't come in this form.
What I am saying is that this system Itself is not needed. those rewards can be provided better though other systems like the reps system.
right now Crypic dangles these Items in front of us to get us to use this broken system, because there is no other way to gain them. there is no good reason to use this system for anything else than those items. the system itself has no value Cryptic knows this and that's why the items are there. Cryptic is just tricking us into using it whit these items. I don't want this system and these wonderful new rewards should be put in a new reputation for the rep system instead.
First of all it's not even a crafting system! It's just a dumb game system that's nothing more than a glorified slots machine.
second the "special items" you hope will be the saving the saving grace are messed up to.