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Question about Chronotons
oracion666
Member Posts: 338 Arc User
Where do they come from? I know the Krenim used them, but that timeline was wiped out when the weapon ship was destroyed, so Voyager never got into combat with Krenim and would thus be unable to analyze them. So how do the Alpha Quadrant powers have them?
Formerly known as Echo@Rivyn13
Member since early 2011
Member since early 2011
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Theoretically, the term timeline is a misnomer as there is no singular, literal series of events stretching from one end of time to the other. All of time, every moment of the past, present and future exists simultaneously. Rather than thinking of time as a river which we can float upon, sometimes back-paddling and changing direction, think of it is a single drop of rain in the middle of a vast ocean. There is no pre-destiny and no paradox. Time, like space, is both curved and infinite. We never stop believing a place no longer exists because we can no longer see it; we know it is still there despite this. The same applies to time.
Energy can not be destroyed. It can be repurposed but never destroyed. By this logic it is irrelevant that Voyager avoided taking an action which would have moved a particular faction of time as the primary as far as chronoton weapons are concerned. They are energy. Had the Krenim not developed them someone else would have eventually done so. Perhaps they did. Perhaps Voyager only manipulated the cause as to arrive at a slightly different effect and they still developed chronoton technology but not the weapon of which you speak.
According to Federation President Archer time is a lot like a string tied at the ends and then balled up in you hand.
Archer was wrong, limited by a complete lack of comprehension in that which we can not see for ourselves. Allons-y was more accurate.
Think of it this way: we know Mars exists. Weve seen it. We cant see it every day and none of us can see it right now. We SAW it in the paper or whatnot a few days ago so does that mean that today it no longer exists? Or Jupiter, Saturn or Andromeda for that matter?
Just because we lack the ability and technology to view time doesnt mean it has ceased to exist once it is in what we consider the past. We are linear beings. Our mind perceives things in a linear fashion. We acknowledge our passage through time by the rise and fall of the sun. Weve build devices to advise us each and every moment as they slip from now to then, but it is an illusion; it is never then, never when its always now. We are stumbling through time like blind infants finding their way across the floor, each obstacle merely nudging us into a different direction as we go.
Another way of looking at is that both space and time have a definite shape and both are curved. I do not believe this equates to spherical space but more of a nautilus shape. A constant, never-ending, spiralling staircase that somehow twists itself into a Mobius in some Escher-like landscape no beginning and no ending. It just is. Navigating time means we must open our minds and set aside the concept of linear thinking and adopt a more ubiquitous sense of considering time.
Another point for consideration: the Grandfather Paradox. It is commonly assumed that, if time travel were possible, if one went back in time and killed (or caused the death of) their grandfather they would cease to exist. Grandfather dies before father is born then there is no way the son can be born to travel back to kill his grandfather, loop the loop also know n as a pre-destination paradox. I challenge this by saying it is both correct and incorrect.
It is correct in the fact that the grandson would legally cease to exist. There would be no record of his birth or his accomplishments, family, etc. It would be as if he were a phantom with entirely no identity other than that he carries in his own mind. Physically, however, he would continue to exist unaltered. Anyone outside of the events of this paradox would still be able to interact with the grandson, but no one would be able to confirm he is who he says he is, because he never existed.
A true paradox in the romantic fashion is not possible because every choice ever made which created every possible future has/is being made. The Grandfather Paradox merely exemplifies the possibility of going back to a point in time to alter the path of those decisions leading to a primary time, the one of which we are all aware.
Lastly, reality is entirely subject to the perception of the individual observing it. Four men and women can stand in a room and witness the same event yet each will have a slightly different point of view of the event which took place. Why? Because reality is not static; its personal. The exact same can apply to time, but that is a much more length conversation for a later date.
may bad on the Olympic class did not know it was in (DS9: "Sacrifice of Angels")
man where was you 4 year ago when i was like you but one wanted to go into a 12 page debate and they change my mind to what i first posted
and the bit you said on the OP was the point i was trying to make but i was trying to use the ship bit that we had stuff that came from time lines that no longer exist and that sto puts in what it wants if it makes sense or not
system Lord Baal is dead
I presume with "fishbowl" you mean the Olympic class which was also seen on DS9 and that has such a low registry number it probably predates the Intrepids class.
Also what do you mean by "Picard's head"?
As for the Alpha and Beta Quadrants having access to Chroniton-related weaponry, even as early as TNG are Chronitons mentioned, and even Romulan cloaking devices produce Chronitons. Like every other sub-atomic particle, they've been weaponized for fun and profit.
Q was snapping Picard through time, allowing him to create alternate timelines which he destroyed in the end. Nothing of that was in Picard's head. Get rid of the notion that everything has to do with the main cast of a show. The AGT uniforms were in THREE different timelines. So regardless of the existence of the Dominion War, the fate of the Enterprise-D or that of Voyager Starfleet always hired the same uniform designer. Now why should it be different for the engineers who designed the Galaxy-X and the Rhode Island refits? The only thing that is just wrong is the cloaking device of the Galaxy-X.
On the original topic: Chronitons exist in Star Trek. And the oldest scientific law on Earth is: If humans can weaponize something, they will. We don't need to copy from the Krenim.
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
man where was you 4 year ago when i was like you but one wanted to go into a 12 page debate and they change my mind to what i first posted
and the bit you said on the OP was the point i was trying to make but i was trying to use the ship bit that we had stuff that came from time lines that no longer exist and that sto puts in what it wants if it makes sense or not
system Lord Baal is dead
Mass effects the flow of time. The greater the mass of an object, the more it warps local spacetime. As is, it has already been proven that satellites gain a fraction of a second each day compared to that of ground-level Earth due to the lower mass. Likewise, you would move through time faster if you left the Milky Way because you would be further from the galaxy's mass. If you went further in to the galaxy, you would move through time slower as you approached the supermassive black hole at its center.
I am more apt to believe that time-travel would simply shift one in to a different quantum brane. Or cause a different brane to be created at the point of arrival.
Stephen Hawking addressed the issue of time-travel. He said: "I have experimental evidence that time travel is not possible. I gave a party for time-travelers, but I didn't send out the invitations until after the party. I sat there a long time, but no one came."
After all: We don't have any patent-agreements with the Krenim or alternate timelines.
Except that you wouldn't notice. There is no preferred axis of orientation, nor is there a preferred meter stick other than the speed of light. As far as we on Earth were concerned, we'd experience the flow of time exactly as we do now.
Our approach to the supermassive black hole would only appear slowed to an observer who wasn't doing the same thing--in a different reference frame, that is--but our own personal experience of the amount of time required to move X meters at Y m/s would be the same as it would be anywhere else.
The problem with asking questions about how we would be affected by being 100,000 ly from galactic center as opposed to 37,000 ly (or 15 m) is that there is no absolute experience of time against which to make a comparison. Comparisons only exist when more than one reference frame is used; that's why it's called "relativity" instead of "absolutivity."
As for that bit about some other galaxy receding from us at (let's say) 0.88c, let's look at it this way. From a hypothetical observer in that galaxy, the Milky Way is receding at 0.88c along an opposite relative vector. And versus a different galaxy picked at random, the Milky Way is receding at 0.65c along a different relative vector. Then, 180 degrees by 75 degrees from that, the Milky Way is receding at 0.31c. Either the Milky Way is moving in 100,000,000,000 billion directions and velocities at once, or--the vector sum comes to zero, and we're not moving at all. The latter statement is closer to the truth. Our "actual" motion--along with the "actual" motions of all those other galaxies sufficiently distance from us, is mostly along an axis we can't see with three-dimensional senses. (The galaxies in the Local Group don't show Hubble red shifts like that because they're gravitationally bound.)
Space-time is expanding. The required number of clock ticks (using Planck time units) required for light to get from here (Milky Way) to there (z8_GND_5296, for example) increases as the Universe ages. In three dimensions we say that the distance between the galaxies increased, but what really happened is that the time required increased--the required traversal distance along the unseen fourth axis increased.
The final (and perhaps dirty and little) secret is that everything moves at the speed of light all the time. ||dx,dy,dz,dt|| = c. (That sort of implies an absolute reference frame, and there aren't any, but I'm only telling you what Einstein said. It'll take someone with more math chops than I have to explain it in detail.)
Chronitons aren't invented. They are discovered.
Actually, Federation science knew of them for a long time. The Krenim just managed to weaponize them.
Collapsing the paradox's wave function (as a figure of speech
So space is expanding and everything is moving at a certain speed, or maybe not at all. That would also include the cosmic web model of course. Maybe it is itself moving into one or more directions within the universe and in addidtion to that, the strings of "mass" (clusters of galaxies and stars ect) is also interacting with eachother, pushing and pulling one another all the time, altering mass and speed values ect. It is a very mindblowing experience the more I try to picture and understand this hole thing, and of course frustrating because one can not be certain how it really looks and works altogether, especially about all the stuff that we do not now about.
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What you are describing is known as time dilation; a phenomenon that, according to Wikipedia, "is an actual difference of elapsed time between two events as measured by observers either moving relative to each other or differently situated from gravitational masses." This phenomenon has been tested in practical subliminal events and verified as true. Even on a airplane traveling at a few hundred miles and hour there is a time difference... incredibly tiny and measurable only by an atomic clock, but it's there. Therefore, anyone who has flown has, in essence, traveled through time. Congrats!
Time is how we perceive it. If a team of astronauts left Earth and reached C for a set period of time and returned, time for them would have passed normally whereas time on earth would have passed at what they would perceive as an accelerated rate. However, for those on Earth, time would have passed normally as well. So in working with your analogy above, we would experience no time difference whatsoever.
actually you just contradicted yourself.
astronomers anticipate that the star Betelgeuse will super/hypernova wthin our lifetimes, which means it's already happened, hundreds if not thousands of years ago.. ergo Betelgeuse IS NOT THERE anymore
Planet of the Apes, anyone?
All these long winded answers and this right here ^ is the answer.
Chronitons have been in Trek since TNG, the Krenim didn't have a monopoly on them.
Yeah this is most likely. Chornitons in STO are not even closer to the ones the Krenim used in the show.
But same happens with transphasic, they come from the "future" (remember the last episode of Voyager) that will be almost the same year as STO is based, but still, they are really stupid compared with the ones Janeway used in the show.
And some other things, but we need to understand this is a personalized Star Trek universe, we need to understand it that way. Things are not the same as we saw em in the shows. Or in the movies.
Pretty much, DS9 references them more than a few times too: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Chroniton
Commanding Officer: Captain Pyotr Ramonovich Amosov
Dedication Plaque: "Nil Intentatum Reliquit"
It makes a lot of difference to the travelers when they get back home again. "We've been gone for five minutes." Well, everyone you know and their great-grandkids are dead.
It can be here again, if you says its name enough times.
As I recall, astronauts shave a few seconds off their age.
One of the biggest conceits of warp travel is having everyone age at the same rate and acting like there is universally consistent time.
Yes, there's technobabble for it. It starts to fall apart when you imagine everyone having their own frame of reference though. Time is geo-specific.
If you can warp somewhere and warp back and no more time has passed for the people back home than you, you're time traveling. And in a world where you do that, you should probably be running into your grandfather before you were born and your great grand children and yourself, casually and routinely.
Not even as casual as it was on Voyager. More like running into someone at the grocery store. Maybe like, "I went on vacation with myselves."
It would be impossible as we conventionally imagine things but a total cultural revamp if you start with some of the assumptions you have in typical space sci-fi.
"Sorry, boss. I need off for this weekend. I have plans."
"You can cancel your plans."
"Actually, I can't. Because when I was 18, I went on vacation with myself this weekend."
"Hrmph. Predestination paradox. Well, you can go but you won't have a job to come back to."
"Actually, boss, you were there too and you gave future-me a raise."
"Well, okay then... Looks like we're going on vacation."