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Destructable Torp and Mine ideas...
lianthelia
Member Posts: 7,896 Arc User
I've been thinking a lot about them recently, about how they're pretty much useless against anything that spams FAW...which only leads more and more to pure energy loadout being the best...which just doesn't feel very Trek to me.
For torpedos I was thinking maybe have them function like plasma torpedos in SFC...you fire at them, each hit taken reduces the damage of the torpedo but doesn't destroy them so easily.
Now mines on the other hand, I was thinking maybe if they are destroyed they have a blast radius, I mean it seems kinda silly to me a armed warhead just disintegrates instead of exploding. So maybe a radius of 1-2k.
For torpedos I was thinking maybe have them function like plasma torpedos in SFC...you fire at them, each hit taken reduces the damage of the torpedo but doesn't destroy them so easily.
Now mines on the other hand, I was thinking maybe if they are destroyed they have a blast radius, I mean it seems kinda silly to me a armed warhead just disintegrates instead of exploding. So maybe a radius of 1-2k.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Post edited by lianthelia on
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It's not just the enemy's FAW that can target targetables... it's your FAW against Borg, PvP, and other instances of targetable torpedos & mines.
All sorts of AOE skills can target targetable things, and not just FAW. I'll fire torpedo spreads into an enemy just to take out their HY torps.
IKS Korrasami (Fleet B'rel Bird of Prey Retrofit T5-U)
I used FAW as the example because it's so common and on the rise amongst players plus FAW and more AOE in general is being used by npcs.
Just seems silly to me that these armed warheads, heavily armed in the case of HY torps are launched, can be taken out with a single shot, and just disintegrate.
I couldn't agree more. Indeed BO is just waaaaaaaaay to powerful in comparison with any Torp with any BoFF Power active.
A THY on the Enhanced Bio, Quantums, and others will fire off a bunch of untargetable torpedos... so if you care about that kind of thing, you wouldn't use THY on Plasma or whatever. THY becomes something you pair with other torpedo types.
I'd expect the THY/targetables (such as a Tricobalt) to be nerfed in damage if they do become untargetable.
I'd miss the ability to gun down a big overcharged Plasma torpedo, though. It doesn't seem right especially in the case of the Plasma.
I do think torpedos need to be looked at in relation to other weapons. I'm not sure transforming targetable things is the entire answer, however.
IKS Korrasami (Fleet B'rel Bird of Prey Retrofit T5-U)
What is so silly about that. Low speed self-guided missiles like that tend to do that. Their protection is in speed and dodge ability. not armor.
Except they have no *protection*, they have no speed, and no dodge. They're easily hit and a single hit kills them.
Yes, they are slower moving target-able missiles, so they can be hit unlike faster ones. Shots at them can in fact miss, though. It is as it should be.
Hmmm . No, I think if we fire, for example, a heavy plasma torp it should move slow and be targetable and destroyable as it is. Perhaps just more difficult to get a lock on so you have a CHANCE to destroy it, but it isnt necessarily guaranteed.
As for a new torp concept how about more of an ability rather than a weapon? I.e., if you can get within, say, 3 km of your intended target you can beam a live torp (whatever you have currently equipped) onto the enemy ship when it detonates, the ship takes not only kinetic damage but (and heres the real kicker) 40% live crew reduction.
The fewer the live crew, the slower their subsystems and hull can repair... making them all that more killable. Now, I saw 3km because it wouldnt be fun without a challenge. Consider a Borg Cube 3km is definitely a challenge LOL
However, this thought just occurred to me and maybe something like this already exists a torp or mine that sets up a Tholian Net. Mines could be cool but theyd have to sit and wait for the enemy to fly between them a torp, however it fires . And if it isnt destroyed by the time it reaches the enemy, it breaks into four pieces and captures the ship in webbing that snares it, reducing its manoeuvrability to 0 and causing a slight shield drain for lets say 5 seconds? To make it fair, this ability should have a decent 90 sec cool down.
'Fast' Torpedoes could be made targetable by a point defense skill only.
'Slow' Torpedoes would be subject to a larger variety of skills, including FAW, but they would only have a chance to detonate the incoming slow torpedo. The bonus to hit and do damage would be based the point defense skill.
'Slow' Torpedos would have some sort of innate defense, either armour or the like. the VATA torpedo is an excellent example of this progression in design.
Mines would most definitely be included in the 'Slow' category, the exception would be cloaked, interphasic and subspace (Houdini-type) mines. Mines would benefit from short-term shielding, as their systems would not be focused on defense rather than propulsion.
I'd add to the mix something 'newish' to STO: Expendable Drones.
While the VATA and KDF equivalent is sometimes called a drone, they are in fact very specialized torpedos with their own launching mechanism. The take a console and are technically unlimited.
I propose something more akin to today's drones. Something an Ensign could literally push out a hatch.
1.) Drones are devices and expendable with a 4 min cool down.
2.) They would have 'extended' range like fighters to 12 KM.
3.) Drones would respond to carrier commands; intercept would be a collision attack. Otherwise the default would be select a target and deploy.
4.) They can be retargeted manually.
5.) They would in effect have shields, hull and ONE primary capability:
Siege - oversized tricolbalt warhead for large stationary, unshielded targets. Useless against shields.
Anti-Ship - High speed, shield piercing warhead
Area Denial - upon reaching 'target', explodes leaving submunitions in a 60-second cloud that slowly radiates outward, detonating on impact or by default when the cloud expands to 5km.
Picket - Threat modification and point defense drone that circles your vessel attacks mines, slow torps, pets only and lasts for 60 seconds.
AEGIS - Shielding drone that sends out false sensor readings for 30 seconds. Overwhelmed targeting scanners and effectively becomes the target. High shield capacity.
Drones Could have several qualities (common, uncommon, rare, VR and UR), and could be purchased at starbases for either ec or dilithium. Fleet versions would be available at fleets for fc. Lockbox versions would also exist.
They would be PRICEY. 50,000-100,000 ec equivalent. or 100 dill each as a base costfor commons.
I'd see these as racks of 1-3 drones with a long cooldown between launches. Fleet versions would not have a shared cooldown. Bigger ones - like the Siege variant would be 1 per rack. Defensive stuff like AEGIS and Picket would be 3 per rack.
They would add a small variation to PvP, that skilled players would likely ignore. In PvE they would provide yet another 'game modifier' that new players would consume on a regular basis.
Most long-term players would ignore them, but specialized ones would sell well on the exchange.
It would also add some flavour to the idea that starships have more than one type of torpedo in thier tubes
*phew* wall of text powered by a decent Merlot.
My Two Bits
Admiral Thrax
Npcs seem to hit them pretty well, soon as they fire out a FAW they take it down, then there are Undine, I notice them flying around so fast, jumping, and the heavy bio-plasmic torps with their aoe...makes slow projectiles all but useless as well.
Skills affecting the effectiveness of targetable projectiles.
Starship Sensors: With higher skills, the effectiveness of the guidance systems becomes better.
- Speed of torps & mines seeking their targets.
- For mines, increased range to pursue a target.
- Boost to CritH & CritD due to the advanced guidance systems of such heavier ordnance.
Starship Countermeasure Systems Skill helps the "defense" of targetable projectiles.
- Makes mines harder to detect.
- Increase likeliness of not being destroyed by AOE effects or direct attacks.
Standard Tactical Projectile related skills still apply to effectiveness.
However, increases in both skills (Sensors, Countermeasures) contributes to higher base damage of destructible projectiles. As a sort of "compensation" on top of the bonuses. Starship Sensors is a medium-cost skill. Starship Countermeasure Systems is at the very top of the Science Skills and is very costly. Even among the heavy Science based builds, very few spec into Starship Countermeasures.
I like the idea of giving some targetable torpedoes more speed for higher defense rating, and some of them should have more hit-points (like the bio-neural, they can be hard to kill).
I would like to see unguided energy projectiles that they are ballistic and thrown at a target but do not have casings and thrusters--very good for siege weapons or if you get very close to a target (suicide) but no good for fast-moving targets. The Omega energy ball and the T'varo destabilized plasma should probably be like this, unguided heavy-hitting weapons.
If one is firing slow-projectiles at fast ships that can jump, one frankly deserves the headache of having them not hit when firing them all the time. Frankly I do not use my Hyp-plasma against those ships unless I use a root-ing ability or blind first like a GW, subspace-rift, a jam or scramble. You need to use the right weapons for the right task at the right time.
I'm not saying it can't be countered or anything, just it seems like the devs hate torpedoes...like they want everyone flying around with all energy weapons and A2B. To me that just isn't Trek...I mean I can't think of any logical reason why they do squat against shields...there is nothing in canon to back that up.
You never heard Picard ordering Worf to fire Photons when their shields are down and I'm sure Janeway would of been much more cautious of having Tuvok fire their *limited* amount of torpedoes if they had no effect on shields.
It's just there is so many things in this game that feel completely anti torpedo, the only thing that seems to favor torps seems to be generators in stf's with no shields...
/Supported
I'm sorry to people who I, in the past, insulted, annoyed, etc.
Beam Overload III is also capable of one-hitting for double or triple the damage. :rolleyes:
In fact with the Elachi DBB its even possible to one-shot a 60k hull cruiser at full shield strenght.
No, heavy torpedoes need to be seriously brought on par with the most powerful of energy weapon attacks.
Alternatively energy weapons damage and shield healing need to be nerfed.
I don't know if it is my captain's skillset, Doffs, or what have you, but I pump these torps out. High Yield/Spread does nothing any more but I just churn the torps out one after the other after the other... target them all you like, they'll just keep coming. I tjust means you aren't targetting me... I, on the other hand...
And better... after the destruction of your primary target the torps wait, hungrily, until you pick up another target, then charge off towards that one!
If players couldn't target these I'd have to complain the thing is OP. A good target lock + Fire at Will III and/or Cannon/Torp Spread III will wipe a few of them out, but as I said, they just keep coming.
There is a doff, projectile weapons, which can reduce reload cooldown, well a chance to lower it, the doff is stackable so if you have more than one it has a higher chance to reduce cooldown. Law" which you can get from the Nimbus set of missions is one. It happens with any torp, it is just most noticable with the hyp-plamsa since it naturally fires off three per shot. so in a cool down reduction it will fire off another three (and another, and another as it). HY doesnt effect it, other than when it reduces you can get 3 HY's followed by 3 norma and another three norm.... and it has no effect on TS other than ofter a fire it can immediately send off three new ones after teh TS if the chance on cooldown hits. With three stacked purple DOFFS for cooldown the chance of getting the cooldown is pretty good..... so most of the time you will see those torp chains with it. Watch out with proximity though, those torps have splash damage, so if you get within 1km of target I would recommend to stop using torps, especialy if your shields are low, otherwise their impact on target could in fact cause damage to yourself.
As a note, it's also somewhat of a good setup for the dyson rep torp, as the more torps you send out increase the the opportunity of creating more gravimetric shears (not nearly as awesome as GW3 + high prob of aftershock GW, but good still).
They get shot down to easily, the damage per shot is too low and they will never catch a ship running EptE, which is like 90% of PvP'ers.
Again have to completely disagree with that.
As long as Beam Overload is capable of scoring 50-100k crits, then having torpedoes be targetable is fundamentally unbalanced, especially since they are slow moving and completely ineffective against shields.
Fair enough and understandable.
I wouldnt use the Hyper Plasma in PVP. I have the rep gravimetric torp for that until something better comes along and I do have staked doffs for the torpedo cooldown SO HANDY!
But in PVE that hyper plasma is a monster
+1 Support
KDF Tac: Bortasqu' Tactical
Fed Tac: Fleet Gal-X
Keep those big guns a-thunderin'
+2 support
also cryptic needs to add more torpedo types, as in dual/triple/quad torpedo launchers and etc, energy weapons have loads and loads of types, torpedoes need some diversity as well.