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Your views on STO's space combat?

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    jaguarskxjaguarskx Member Posts: 5,945 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    cavalerius wrote: »

    Is everyone happy with Space combat in STO, with the difficulty, canon resemblance and that Star Trek feel it has to it? And why do you have that view, or what do you think should be done about it?

    Overall, I like the space combat in STO. However, I do not consider it as canon though because in the TV shows and movies there are not just fore and aft weapons. There are also port and starboard weapons as well. Additionally, from what I recall when watching the Wrath of Kahn, the actual phaser bank emitters of the Enterprise are recessed in the saucer hull. That means the phaser banks actually cannot track enemy ships... technically they can only fire forward. Of course in JJ Abrams version of Star Trek that issue was solved.

    The last Star Trek game I played was Starfleet Command II. STO seems to be somewhat reminiscent of that game. However, it has been a long time since I play SFC II so I cannot make an accurate direct comparison.

    However, I will say that having turrets does not conform with Star Trek canon. No ships in Star Trek mounted turrents. Additionally, I would say that having turrets mounted fore or aft of the ship does not mean you should be able to 360 degrees in all dimensions. They should be removed from the game if you want want to give it more of a Star Trek canon feel. Additionally, ships like the Enterprise should actually have 6 phaser bank mounts; the saucer section has 3 phaser banks on the dorsal and ventral sides of the saucer section. Two phaser banks on the fore, two banks on the port and two banks on the starboard. However... this is just a game.
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    catliketypingcatliketyping Member Posts: 611
    edited May 2014
    baudl wrote: »
    all the points you make i'd sign in an instant, but i think there is a way to make the space combat much more "trek" without a major overhaul.

    reduce the amount of ships, but at the same time increase HP of npcs, so that battles take longer against individual ships.
    And not all ships need to explode...especially those with thick hull should rather be adrift or warp out, than blow up

    It would make the game feel different, but if you think it would make the game feel more dramatic or Trek-like, i think you are mistaken. There is no narrative nor drama nor personal context driving me toy the Undine space or to slaughter Voth or to hunt Borg.

    You would simply trade five lights for four lights.

    The problem is not the number of lights. The issue is bigger than the number of lights. It is why we count lights, not the number of lights themselves, that matters.

    Kirk vs Khan, Picard vs Shinzon, Kirk vs Chang. These are not technological conflicts as much as they are personal, which is what makes them interesting. The technology is grand, but it is just backdrop for a personal drama.
    Nessia (KDF Sci)
    IKS Korrasami (Fleet B'rel Bird of Prey Retrofit T5-U)
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    khazlolkhazlol Member Posts: 167 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    i hate the 10km range limit.

    just increase the energy drain for attacks past 10km .-. would make engineers useful :D
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    revandarklighterrevandarklighter Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    erei1 wrote: »
    It's enough. It's not balanced (lol a2b lol), but it's fair.

    As for canon, in the show, when the ship had to loose, he lost, no matter what. And when he had to win, he won, no matter what. Sometimes using a last minute Crusher and some technobabbles with a deflector, or a trick only seen once.
    Star Trek was probably the ones using the most plot weapons and armor. No fights were the same, even when the opponents were identical, and they never used the same trick twice.
    In some episode the enemy take several torp and still have a shield, sometimes they take a single torp and die.
    And I'm not mentioning the exploding consoles or everytime they took a speak break during a fight to find a plan to escape, while the enemy was nice enough to stop shooting in the meantime.


    Like what ? Pounding their shield harder ? AFAIK, the only think that can remove TT is subnucleotic beam. That's a fairly limited strategy, don't you think ?

    Thats true and ultimately the battle durations were pretty inconsistent.
    If they had money for effect shots the fights were longer. If not they were over after 3 shots.
    The point remains: They didn't always end up with the complete destruction of the ship...
    khazlol wrote: »
    i hate the 10km range limit.

    just increase the energy drain for attacks past 10km .-. would make engineers useful :D

    It would be fun if they would play more with the ranges. Diffreent ranges for different weapons and abilities. and 10 not only logically stupid but even in game mechanics its a little short.
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    baudlbaudl Member Posts: 4,060 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    It would make the game feel different, but if you think it would make the game feel more dramatic or Trek-like, i think you are mistaken. There is no narrative nor drama nor personal context driving me toy the Undine space or to slaughter Voth or to hunt Borg.

    You would simply trade five lights for four lights.

    The problem is not the number of lights. The issue is bigger than the number of lights. It is why we count lights, not the number of lights themselves, that matters.

    Kirk vs Khan, Picard vs Shinzon, Kirk vs Chang. These are not technological conflicts as much as they are personal, which is what makes them interesting. The technology is grand, but it is just backdrop for a personal drama.

    yeah, you are right. My idea wouldn't strike at the core problem of why the game doesn't feel too much trek at all.
    To do that, space combat would need a massive overhaul, which never will happen anyway.

    i simply feel that fighting too many ships feels "unrealistic", especially when the ships blow so easily.
    My proposed changes however are reasonably doable with the existing game engine and to a certain degree make each encounter last a few moments longer, which in itself would give it more depth.

    anyway, this may not be the way other people see it, but for me it would definately be closer to trek than the endless zergs of npc ships thrown at the player.

    SFC 1-3 had a wonderfull, attrition based combat, which imo was the pinnacle of trek games, next to bridge commander.
    Go pro or go home
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    grazyc2#7847 grazyc2 Member Posts: 1,988 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I do believe Space Combat is fine, they could put some more stuff in it but, enough is enough, When in combat you already busy keeping your ship in one peace destroying stuff and blowing up enemy's.

    I'll give you an example, they made a wonderful simulation of wing commander III playable online and as a single player, they put in almost every option you can think off. problem was you had to remind all keys from what was what.

    So the more options you add the more difficult it will become, and already there are folks having trouble as it is now to make an good build. Well you can guess what happens if they would put in a space roll or an picard maneuver, or a rikers manoeuvre and lot more stuff like that it would be for most players no fun to play anymore and Cryptic would start losing customers.

    Also like said here in the treads it's Role Playing Genre and not an simulation.
    But I have to agree with the OP it certainly won't hurt if it's a bit updated....
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "Coffee: the finest organic suspension ever devised. It's got me through the worst of the last three years. I beat the Borg with it."
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    shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    khazlol wrote: »
    i hate the 10km range limit.

    just increase the energy drain for attacks past 10km .-. would make engineers useful :D

    That, or impose even greater damage loss over range.
    tumblr_nq9ec3BSAy1qj6sk2o2_500_zpspkqw0mmk.gif


    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

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    altechachanaltechachan Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    All I would like is the ability to ascend or descend on the Z-Axis.
    Member since November 2009... I think.
    (UFP) Ragnar
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    thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    All I would like is the ability to ascend or descend on the Z-Axis.
    There really should be a Thrusters ability allow +/- on the Z-Axis, even if it is on a cooldown like Evasive Maneuvers.
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
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    sirokksirokk Member Posts: 990 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    In terms of battling NPCs, pretty much all the NPCs are too easy. For me this breaks the immersion when I can take a single ship and work a cube down to nothing.

    Yeah, it's been a 43 years since the Battle of Wolf 359, but we couldn't really have gotten THAT much more powerful since.

    The best thing I think we can do, if you feel the same way, is to reduce the weapon power of our ships, but because it's "discouraged" to do this in PUGs, I fly with a group in the STB Channel (see my sig) that we intentionally reduce our DPS and sometimes even run with lower tier ships. With some light RP we have fun working together and it feels more like Star Trek.
    Star Trek Battles Channel - Play Star Trek like they did in the series!Avatar: pinterest-com/pin/14003448816884219Are you sure it isn't time for a "colorful metaphor"? --Spock in 'The Voyage Home'
    SCE ADVISORY NOTICE: Improper Impulse Engine maintenance can result in REAR THRUSTER LEAKAGE. ALWAYS have your work inspected by another qualified officer.
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    jaguarskxjaguarskx Member Posts: 5,945 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    khazlol wrote: »
    i hate the 10km range limit.

    just increase the energy drain for attacks past 10km .-. would make engineers useful :D

    Actually, max damage should be decrease the further the energy beam or bolt travels because the energy dissipates. Additionally, there should be an accuracy penalty the further away the target is because the target has more time to react while the energy beam or bolt must travel further to reach it's target.
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    jaguarskxjaguarskx Member Posts: 5,945 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    sirokk wrote: »
    In terms of battling NPCs, pretty much all the NPCs are too easy. For me this breaks the immersion when I can take a single ship and work a cube down to nothing.

    Yeah, it's been a 43 years since the Battle of Wolf 359, but we couldn't really have gotten THAT much more powerful since.

    The best thing I think we can do, if you feel the same way, is to reduce the weapon power of our ships, but because it's "discouraged" to do this in PUGs, I fly with a group in the STB Channel (see my sig) that we intentionally reduce our DPS and sometimes even run with lower tier ships. With some light RP we have fun working together and it feels more like Star Trek.

    You can simply increase the difficulty level. I believe there is Advanced and Elite options.

    Now if you are asking for smarter AI algorithms then that is an entirely different matter and would require Cryptic to enhance the game engine.
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    sirokksirokk Member Posts: 990 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    jaguarskx wrote: »
    You can simply increase the difficulty level. I believe there is Advanced and Elite options.

    Now if you are asking for smarter AI algorithms then that is an entirely different matter and would require Cryptic to enhance the game engine.

    I actually always run with Elite.

    Smarter AI might be nice. Maybe the Borg should be able to kidnap you and assimilate your character once in a rare while to make them more dangerous. :D

    It really just comes down to the amount of damage that we can do to all the NPCs is more than it really should be. I am not calling for a global nerf either, just do what we can already do - reduce weapon power or equip fewer or lower tier weapons, etc.
    Star Trek Battles Channel - Play Star Trek like they did in the series!Avatar: pinterest-com/pin/14003448816884219Are you sure it isn't time for a "colorful metaphor"? --Spock in 'The Voyage Home'
    SCE ADVISORY NOTICE: Improper Impulse Engine maintenance can result in REAR THRUSTER LEAKAGE. ALWAYS have your work inspected by another qualified officer.
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    centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    The spammyness of combat is what really irks me. Watching a ship vomit 8 beams at once in rapid succession makes me sad. I wish that they fired slower, and one at a time like the shows. There should be fewer torpedoes shot at once, they should do more damage, and fire slower too.
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    gooddaytodie39gooddaytodie39 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Yeah according to canon, it's silly for a single ship to be able to take out a borg cube. In a single player game, or console game, they could probably be truer to that. But in the world of MMORPGs the average player isn't looking for much challenge. (And for the love of Jebus let's not think I'm referring to any one who posts in these forums. They are uber dps monsters who need harder content always.)
    They want to be able to play through any content with relative ease and feel smart and powerful. So the game is designed to make them feel that way. They have also designed the game so that the more you buy (lobi, zen) the better you can be.
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    phoeniciusphoenicius Member Posts: 762 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    fatman592 wrote: »
    AHAHAHAHA!!! You sir/madam are being refreshingly honest and ironic.

    See, they've already done what you want. Higher HP, harder hitting NPCs in elite. Now you want more than that in a "harder" difficulty. But people will complain that it's too hard, so they issue mk XIVIXXIIMZXX Uber Rare gear.

    What you want is more power creep, love it.

    All more HP means is that we just need moar damage. However, if they gave an NPC tactical team one might have to use strategy...

    romulan NPC mogai's have tactical team... it basically gives them uber-invencible shields for the duration since their shields barely take damage for the duration.

    also considering how the last time cryptic tried to put "strategy" into combat, we got the voth with their wonderful anti-fighter TRIBBLE, acetons, subnucleonics, tyken's/gravity, ubershields, i'm kinda scared me of what they might come up with next.
    Yeah according to canon, it's silly for a single ship to be able to take out a borg cube. In a single player game, or console game, they could probably be truer to that. But in the world of MMORPGs the average player isn't looking for much challenge. (And for the love of Jebus let's not think I'm referring to any one who posts in these forums. They are uber dps monsters who need harder content always.)
    They want to be able to play through any content with relative ease and feel smart and powerful. So the game is designed to make them feel that way. They have also designed the game so that the more you buy (lobi, zen) the better you can be.

    the way i see it, the alpha quadrant simply advanced their tech enough that they're capable of fighting the borg on more even terms now, at least that what it should be, the borg were basically invincible villains, and that is pretty boring.

    only thing that kept the borg from blowing up like everyone else, was the fact they were "invincible" due to "adapting" to everything, whats keeping everyone from just putting re-modulators on their space weapons and calling a day(like we have on ground).

    IMO the only silly thing is for undine ships to be as weak as they are, a simple nicor was capable of punching a hole in a cube with little effort, why i can blow up several of them with a single FAW?
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    sirokksirokk Member Posts: 990 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Yeah according to canon, it's silly for a single ship to be able to take out a borg cube. In a single player game, or console game, they could probably be truer to that. But in the world of MMORPGs the average player isn't looking for much challenge. (And for the love of Jebus let's not think I'm referring to any one who posts in these forums. They are uber dps monsters who need harder content always.)
    They want to be able to play through any content with relative ease and feel smart and powerful. So the game is designed to make them feel that way. They have also designed the game so that the more you buy (lobi, zen) the better you can be.

    Even after what I said in my last response, I'd have to admit that it feels satisfying sometimes being able to kill the Borg as quickly as I can. If it were hard for everyone to frag the NPCs though, there would be too many complaints.

    We can control how we play and if you don't want to use BFAW, then don't or at least save it as an "emergency mode".

    One of the players on the STB channel has been trying to tune his ship to "look" more canon by installing higher power energy weapons but fewer of them, like 1 or 2 front and back. This starts to look more like how you see the Enterprise in TNG with single beams firing. I think he still managed to get about 6.5K DPS.

    On one of the podcasts there was a mention that "Nightware" mode could be considered as a level above Elite for a difficulty mode. The problem with this is that it would just hasten the "power creep". The more powerful the character is, the more powerful they have to make the NPCs... and up it goes from there.

    I believe in just adjusting one's own configuration is the best way.
    Star Trek Battles Channel - Play Star Trek like they did in the series!Avatar: pinterest-com/pin/14003448816884219Are you sure it isn't time for a "colorful metaphor"? --Spock in 'The Voyage Home'
    SCE ADVISORY NOTICE: Improper Impulse Engine maintenance can result in REAR THRUSTER LEAKAGE. ALWAYS have your work inspected by another qualified officer.
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    dkeith2011dkeith2011 Member Posts: 595 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I wouldn't mind if combat resulted in a random mix of crippled and destroyed ships.

    The Feds in particular were known to shoot to disable.

    Like the Voth now, every now and then a target should just stop and go inactive.
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    riccardo171riccardo171 Member Posts: 1,802 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    NPCs can't think. They follow scripts and no complain will change that. That being said, I like STO space combat, especially when it comes to PvP.
    fatman592 wrote: »
    AHAHAHAHA!!! You sir/madam are being refreshingly honest and ironic.

    See, they've already done what you want. Higher HP, harder hitting NPCs in elite. Now you want more than that in a "harder" difficulty. But people will complain that it's too hard, so they issue mk XIVIXXIIMZXX Uber Rare gear.

    What you want is more power creep, love it.

    All more HP means is that we just need moar damage. However, if they gave an NPC tactical team one might have to use strategy...

    Tal Shiar's Mogais HAZ TT. :D
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    ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    dkeith2011 wrote: »
    The Feds in particular were known to shoot to disable.
    some of the episode missions require it

    it should be more or less normal, and a lot less gratuitous shooting too, supposed to be explorers and diplomats
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    sirokksirokk Member Posts: 990 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    some of the episode missions require it

    it should be more or less normal, and a lot less gratuitous shooting too, supposed to be explorers and diplomats

    YES! I want this to be an option as a norm instead of the exception for all NPCs - to just disable them! That would be more like how Starfleet should operate.
    Star Trek Battles Channel - Play Star Trek like they did in the series!Avatar: pinterest-com/pin/14003448816884219Are you sure it isn't time for a "colorful metaphor"? --Spock in 'The Voyage Home'
    SCE ADVISORY NOTICE: Improper Impulse Engine maintenance can result in REAR THRUSTER LEAKAGE. ALWAYS have your work inspected by another qualified officer.
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    stark2kstark2k Member Posts: 1,467 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    dkeith2011 wrote: »
    I wouldn't mind if combat resulted in a random mix of crippled and destroyed ships.

    The Feds in particular were known to shoot to disable.

    Like the Voth now, every now and then a target should just stop and go inactive.

    It is now known as:

    Star Trek Online: Killers in Space

    To quote Kirk: "Klingons don't take prisoners" - Though now we know thats not entirely true, yet STO Feds are the true killers in space :P
    StarTrekIronMan.jpg
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    thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    stark2k wrote: »
    It is now known as:

    Star Trek Online: Killers in Space

    To quote Kirk: "Klingons don't take prisoners" - Though now we know thats not entirely true, yet STO Feds are the true killers in space :P
    I am fairly certain Kirk is the guy who said "Let them die!" :)
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
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    astro2244astro2244 Member Posts: 623 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    cavalerius wrote: »
    Just watched an episode of Star Trek when the Federation retake DS9 from the Dominion. Then I played STO's Khitomer elite and soloed a Cube in a T4 Galaxy refit...

    Is everyone happy with Space combat in STO, with the difficulty, canon resemblance and that Star Trek feel it has to it? And why do you have that view, or what do you think should be done about it?




    It's complicated to answer. If only Sto had Swg's space combat engine.......:( *Walks down memory lane* That is all.
    [SIGPIC]583px-Romulan_Star_Empire_logo%2C_2379.svg.png
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    dgdolphdgdolph Member Posts: 592 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Let me split this up:

    Space PvP: Most awesome thing in this damn game!

    Space PvE: Booooooooring, no challange at all. You won't need ANY Scis or Engis, just some Tacs that are spamming their spacebar on Cruisers or Scimitars.
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    miirikmiirik Member Posts: 483 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    in star trek it only takes a handful of hits to completely destroy one's shields, at least most of the time. After that phaser shots do incredible damage and a well placed torpedo can 1-shot you afterwards.

    in STO each shield side is it's own separate entity and it takes many more shots to take down a shield, then plenty more to finish the job (unless you are an alpha striker)
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    drazursouthclawdrazursouthclaw Member Posts: 223 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    My view is that I love it, wouldn't change a thing.

    (PvE player, if that matters)
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    cavaleriuscavalerius Member Posts: 126 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Impressive. I actually got overwhelmingly good feedback. Wasn't expecting that.

    I agree, the pace of combat in the game could be slowed down considerably. Rather than increase the HP of NPC's to accommodate this, how about lowering the damage caused by the players, and altering the rate of weapons fire. An example of this weapons alteration would be similar to the Enterprise in nemesis. They spam phasers, only each blast last for a third of what STO phasers last for, and they don't all fire at the same time, making it seem rapid, but not spammy.

    I also think that subsystem targeting (or something along these lines) should be introduced to all ships as well. <Braces for oncoming s**tstorm>
    The reason I say this is it was available to all ships in canon. Target their bridge or target their warp engines. Just doesn't make sense to take it away from STO ships. To counter this, give it to NPC's too, and increase their damage resistance or something. If you think it'll take away the only special thing science ships have, give them the ability to indefinitely knock weapons, shields etc offline on a certain facing till they change maps or die...

    I also agree the full 360 motion in space is long overdue. Just stop ships from going upside down is all that needs to be done. Although... Just imagine how many people are going to camp while vertical just to spam phasers at everything close.
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    mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    I am fairly certain Kirk is the guy who said "Let them die!" :)

    But in the movie he realizes that this isn't the right stance, and he ultimately disagrees with the idea of fighting a war against the Klingons - and averts the war.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
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