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Weapons for best dps?
cirte86
Member Posts: 24 Arc User
Greetings!
Simple question. Since release of sto i prefer Phaser. Oldschool and classic
But now iam in position, that i can spend lot of fleet marks into the mkxii fleet equipment.
Am iam right, if Antiproton Beams will provide the best dps?
Simple question. Since release of sto i prefer Phaser. Oldschool and classic
But now iam in position, that i can spend lot of fleet marks into the mkxii fleet equipment.
Am iam right, if Antiproton Beams will provide the best dps?
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Also get those spire tac consoles.. they boost crit
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Power Creep over the last few years has made getting high Critical Hit Chance (CritH) quite easy. The Ancient Obelisk set can also grant a sizeable bonus to Antiproton damage (+10% which unlike most set bonuses is effectively applied "after" other damage buffs) to Antiproton-typed damage.
With the introduction of the 8472 Counter Command Ordnance set, Phasers and Disruptors can now get a similar +7.5% "bonus" damage buff.
Most other set bonuses will only add base damage, but the 8472 and Obelisk bonuses apply multiplicatively.
Regarding which type is "better"; it's worth noting that Antiprotons will only apply their extra CritD against themselves; whereas the Disruptor Proc applies against all incoming Hull damage (so it'll affect your other weapons, your pets, exotic damage abilities such as Gravity Well, your teammate's weapons... etc, etc.)
Disruptors also come in lots of multiple-proc variants - Polarized Disruptors; Elachi, Nanite, etc. and some of those procs will stack with each other. Technically you could slot Half Bio-Molecular Disruptors, Half Nanite Disruptors and stack both sets of procs; whilst boosting everything with the same +Disruptor Tac Consoles.
At the moment I'm leaning towards saying if you want to use energy weapons only, go for Antiprotons. If you want to mix in Torpedos and Mines/Pets, go for Disruptors.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Personally, I'm convinced one of the best synergies in PVE is to combine Polarized Disruptor weaponry with the Gravimetric Photon Torpedo.
Consider the following:
(i) The additional subsystem Drain proc from Polarised Disruptors does a lot for your DPS (in terms of increasing your effective Accuracy/CritH/CritD via draining Engine Power; decreasing enemy Shield Resistances via draining shield power; and lowering the effectiveness of any Aux-based enemy heals... with the additional benefit of you taking less damage due to lower enemy weapons power) providing that you can get it to a reasonably high uptime. This is trivial with Cannon Rapid Fire. The basic Disruptor resistance debuffs will also stack nicely with your Torpedo Impacts and their resulting Gravity Wells.
(ii) Your Disruptor-based weaponry and Photon Torpedos will get very nice bonuses from running the Counter-Command Multi-Energy Relay and Heavy Bio-Molecular Disruptor Turret.
(iii) Adding the Proton Particle Stabiliser buffs your Photon damage and +Crit chance further due to the set bonus kicking in with the Gravimetric Launcher.
(iv) The above still leaves you free to use a 8472 Deflector and an AMACO Engine/Shield for more Energy, Projectile + GravWell damage. Not to mention an [Amp] Elite Fleet warp core for even more +damage.
(v) So far you've only used one Tactical Console slot. Go Wild with Vulnerability Locators, and don't forget to take a copy of Plasmonic Leech somewhere and an advanced Flow Capacitor Science Console to apply [Plasma] with your weapons fire.
Note also that the Leech console and the Polarized Disruptor Drain Proc will both benefit from that Flow Capacitor Science console. If you get Leech stacked up on an enemy target and your Polarized Disruptors Proc, the enemy power levels will be near zero. They will very likely not be able to escape your Photon Launcher's Gravity Wells, and you might even drain their Engines/Shields completely - dropping all their shield facings and effectively giving you a massive accuracy buff
Romulan-Plasma is another great energy type for having both the Disruptor proc AND plasma damage, on top of of the Fleet Science consoles that can add additional bonus to plasma.
The problem with Romulan Plasma weapons is that they count as Plasma damage rather than Disruptor damage... and there aren't any sets that grant "bonus" damage boosts to Plasma damage, only strength boosts. Even the buff from the Fleet Sci consoles is only a strength boost. This means the Disruptor/Phaser and Antiproton variants which DO have 'bonus' boosts available will tend to easily outdamage them after Tactical Consoles and skillpoints are factored in.
The Plasma Proc isn't too great either sadly, since you can already get stacking copies of it "for free" via those same Fleet Science Consoles.
The main thing Romulan Plasma Weaponry has going for it is that the items in the 'Romulan Singularity Harness Set' are all pretty decent, even if the 2-piece set bonus is a bit rubbish.
1-2: Phasers/Disruptors
3: Everything else
It's also really easy to get ahold of.
let people deside for themselves what is fun and nobody needs to reinvent the wheel...we all know that STO is more a star trek disney land game than an actual competitive MMORPG, but there is no harm in getting the most out of your buck...especially if it is real money. So asking before buying is actually really smart...not only in a virtual world.
most people are happy to share their experiance and knowledge, but obviously you are not among them.
not sure if this is trolling, or just an attempt at sarcasm...
anyway, the procs are fairly insignificant compared to the mods and the additional buffs a weapon type receives through sets or other stuff.
Please offer a list of "actual competitive MMORPGs" as I am unaware of the existence of any.
Undine Rep, rep trait revamp, the new patrol escort console, and other odds and ends have changed the landscape. What's old is new and fun again. Phasers and Disruptors and even, as crazy at it sounds, projectile weapons, are all kinds of awesome again.
some MMOs have content that actually has clans/guilds compete for first kills...and i'm not talking just about WOW...even SWTOR has/had clans competing for first kill and first dungeon clear.
Rift, Guild wars...
not even mentioning PVP
the only competition in STO is who grinds out a fleet base first...
the second part of your answer is more like wishfull thinking than an actual argument. Not only is AP in a better position in that regard, it also has the possibility to get the same set bonus from a free set.
i have a feeling that the new shinys have not so much changed the landscape, but are infact the flavour of the month and profit from the lack of "love" phasers have seen for in 4 years. Is the new phaser proc better than the old one? most certainly, simply because the old one sucked so much. but the old and useless one is still there, consuming a mod that is 100% more valuable than the phaser proc.
Obviously disruptors don't have that problem and they profit the most from the points you mentioned...but disruptors never were bad weapons anyway.
anyway, torps, especially photons seem to be having a renaissance...but it is sad that cryptic has taken the road of making the player stack set boni to make them viable.
PS: the reason why you mentioned a console for a new ship, would change the usefullness of all phaser is beyond me...but so is your statement that phasers would be #1 weapon proc
But if you want to use Phasers, then get them with an additional [CrtD] crit. Phasers with [CrtD] will be equivalent to Antiproton's inherent crit. (Dual Heavy Cannons, of all energy types, have an additional +10 Critical Severity.)
Although a minor detail, since procs only happen 2.5% of the time, all energy weapons have procs except Antiproton has no inherent proc.
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Ship_weapon#Energy_weapons
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That's not really competition. I mean back in EQ I understood the competition for server firsts. It would give your guild access to content and rewards others didn't have. Because the world was persistent. The extreme example was waking the sleeper. But Rift? Guild Wars? Not really what I'd call competitive MMO gaming.
I was thinking you meant something more when you used the word competitive. I really don't see how there's any difference betwee Rift and STO in terms of any level of competition.
There's a lot of competitive gaming out there right now. But not so much in the MMO genre.
Just to clarify, I suggested Phasers and Disruptors were the best DPS weapons. I didn't mention anything about phasers being the number one weapon proc. Much of what I was making my opinion based on was the new set bonus and some of the changes made to other aspects of the game. My posts have nothing to do with the procs though. That's a whole other debate/thread/topic.
ok, i meant competition in the sense of content that needs dedication of a group or one person to clear...STO has no such content, everything is pretty much "easy". some group missions are even unfailable. You don't have content that is only available to dedicated player and that requires tiers to complete to advance to the next.
ofcourse there are not really any RPGs in esports, except WoW. But i wasn't referring to esports anyway in my statement.
yes, and that is where you are utterly wrong...weapons are all the same, mainly mods, but also the proc makes the difference. Between phasers and disruptors is already a major difference...so how you can actually put them both on first place in your ranking is ridiculous...
Even the argument with sets that buff them and other things makes even less sense since there are sets and items (in even greater number) that buff other weapons...simple example, plasma.
And even a better example, antiproton, which have crtD which is far better than any proc and gets stronger each expansion, and even through the revamp, because overall crit rating got increased.
now i know you will dismiss this post aswell and i frankly don't care, since i'm not responding to your post because i want to convince you or something. I just wan't to give the rest of the people that read through this thread a chance to make their own opinion about the subject.
Your initial post,
is simply a punsh in the face of everybody who is new to the subject...you simply post the bare minimum of characters to avoid the "not enough character" error.
No effort to explain how and why you came to the conclusion...and only after i challenged you on your statement you made some up, which quite frankly have nothing to do with the subject (new patrol escort for instance) or are valid for all other weapon types too.
Next time, put more effort in your "advice"
But there's nothing really competitive about that.
Nah, I'm not wrong. Disruptors and Phasers currently do great DPS because of the recent advancements with season 9.
That's easy. Some ships are tailor made for phasers specifically. Which means those ships use phasers and get way more out of them. The other ships can take advantage of the new Undine sets and use disruptors.
The new Patrol Escort should use phasers. And won't really get a whole lot out of going plasma compared to Phasers.
Another ship that should use phasers to maximize DPS is the fleet Dreadnought. Another ship that can make better use of phasers and thus is boosted by season 9 is the Kumari. (Take special note of how few science consoles the examples I cite have available to them).
In those instances season 9 brought a lot of weight to using phasers. Other ships, well season 9 has opened them up to disruptors.
So ... Disruptors and Phasers ... best DPS weapons since season 9 went live.
If you mean punch, I think you're going way overboard on things. Way way overboard. I posted my opinion on what are the best DPS weapons. And I think I've explained my position quite thoroughly at this point. It's season 9 and what it's brought. Phasers and Disruptors are the new hotness.
I learned very early on in my STO playing days that when I see that Red beam of death or that Green/Blue Green beam of death to be ready to hurt...and hurt badly.
I personally like Antiproton because it's like getting punched in the face by Mike Tyson (in his prime). No fancy proc's,...just good ole' fashioned pain. I've watched other players ships cower in fear in Ker'rat from my 7 Antiproton weapons on my JHDC (If you want a real fight, go to Ker'rat without any torpedo's).
But,...But...
I've been able to get really good results with my Nanite Disruptor weapons. They don't Proc very often, but when they do that crippling fire helps greatly.
the reasons you state are not exclusive to phasers or disruptors, basically any other weapon type has had similar buffs in the past.
all season 9 did was picking phasers out of the gutter they were in. Can they compete with AP? Not really, since AP will allways have the advantage of NOT being a proc, but they aren't as much behind as before season 9.
And in that particular case the enormous increase of ACC and the subsequent overflow into higher critH has given AP weapons also a large buff with season 9.
Problem remains, that there are sets for free that boost other weapon types (pol, AP)...for phasers and disruptors you need to grind the rep and put in the dilithium.
Very easy.
Familiarity and knowledge of the game; Making an efficient build suitable to your playstyle.
That will get you doing more damage than anything else in the game. The rest is nitpicking small stats and preferences. You can be told to "Use X, do Y, and have Z." But if you don't know what's up, why the suggested build is laid out in such a way, not more thorough in the in's and out's of the game, you will not play any great build efficiently.
You can put a decent player in a 9 console ship with white common gear, and he will setup the boff skills and all that to make it rock.
You can put an inexperienced player in any top of the line ship, outfitted with the rarest, most expensive, most "OP" gear in the game, and they will not be good.
Procs and crits are identical in a sustained fight
Even in a shorter fight, they tend to balance out closely. though they probably would even more if they had a higher proc chance and less powerful procs that stack more readily; that should actually be a variant Cryptic looks into IMHO. Something like a 25% proc chance, 10% the effect of a normal proc would be a dream solo mission proc weapon and would probably be ideal for something like a Foundry rep since it would work well in short fights against NPCs.
Where procs and stats vary more is against players.
Against NPCs, any chance contingent factor including Acc and CritH is basically the same as a proc. All are subject to streaks.
Where procs suffer is with proc cleanses and PvP. Acc and CritH/CritD are favored because there is nothing a player can do to build or specifically avoid that in general. There are perhaps novelty things there like attack reflects (which can make crit painful) but you can generally assume that a PvPer is going to try to mitigate crits/accuracy/damage as much as they can anyway and so they have no special tools for avoiding it. Whereas a proc like plasma damage or movement impairment has specific counters that a player can intelligently counter.
Vs. an elite Borg cube and in the hands of an average plkayer, crits and procs should even out. Vs. solo enemies, the results will be stable on the whole (although building-up effects like multiple stacking effects won't reach peak performance, which is why I could see an argument for more single player/small group, weak enemy/short fight oriented weapons). It's LARGELY a PvP thing (with some bosses who have immunities/cleanses) that makes straight stats more desirable than procs.
is there any more evidence for this claim than your intuition?
because it not only seems blatantly wrong, it also is devoid of any logic, especially when it comes to useless procs like phasers.
AP may have been balanced out with certain dmg procs when crtH of a fed player wasn't greater than 15%, but those numbers are long gone, which means that the more crtH is added, the better AP weapons become...it is actually that simple.
And season 9 introduced a ton of new ACC sources, which translate directly to crtH in PVE.
This is true, the new bio phasers/disruptors are decent, especially with the set bonus increasing proc chance of the incubation and the heavy turret. The disruptors are better imo because they have the better of the 2 procs. Still both nice though.
My ten pence:
I always found that most energy weapon types are fairly similar overall. Two exceptions are anitproton and plasma/romplasma.
Standard Antiproton is very good for people who stack crit, which should be obvious. That way you make your own % chance of your proc rather than attempting to rely on 2.5% which you shouldn't really do.
Plasma is very good for beam boats, due to the fact that the Romulan reputation console/torp/beam set is extremely good. The beam weapon does not drain any power which basically means you can load an extra beam without affecting whatever your acceptable power drain is depending on build. Also, the 3 piece debuff beam attack is amazing if it is not cleared. Which on PVE enemies it never is.
Baudl is largely correct here.
Taken independent of any outside buffs/equipment considerations, there's still a wide range of performance difference between Procs.
The obvious "best" procs for a Teamed Situation will be resistance debuffs or shield bypass (The various flavours of Disruptors, assuming the target can't cleanse the debuff) or if you can stack enough of it, energy drain (Polaron). Tetryon and Plasma can have their uses (notably Plasma's stacking DoT which bypasses shields), but they'll usually have a less obvious effect during a difficult encounter.
The obvious "best" proc for Solo play is Antiproton (although the most efficient "average DPS over time" increase will come from balancing CritH and CritD in a ratio of roughly 1:10 instead of just stacking one or the other indefinitely). Never go for a [CrtH] or [CrtD] weapon mod over an [Acc] mod if you have the option though; the bonus from overflow accuracy is usually going to give you better performance.
The Phaser proc has always been disappointing. Technically it has the capacity to be extremely powerful, but it always tends to work out as the worst proc in practice because it's just so darned unreliable: it only has a 1 in 4 chance of affecting your "preferred" subsystem and the duration of the effect is very short (Offline subsystems return to full effectiveness instantly, unlike recovering from an energy drain). Essentially, you'll hardly ever drop an enemy's shields at the exact moment it'd be ideal to do so...
The additional Delayed Damage Proc on the 8472 Phasers is nice, but you're still stuck with the "old" poorly-performing Phaser Proc too. So it'll nearly always make more sense to run with the Disruptor versions instead unless your ship has an inherent Phaser ability or you really want a "canon" ship look.
Weapons
Voth Tech, certain ones with high damage rate though.
Time will only tell!
1. You get Plasma Infused Science Consoles that give You additional 9,6% DMG per console.
2. You can get plasma weapons with [CrtD]x3 (witch You cant get on an standard AP weapon and other AP versions are the same as all the other energy types).
Standard AP weapons(which have [CrtD] as there proc) are really the worst type in the end because You cant get the best modificators with them like the earlier mentioned [CrtD]x3.
And on the note, stackink onlly [CrtH] is a good way of lowering your own DPS. You actually need a mix of CrtH and CrtD. Bout a 1:5, 1:7 ratio in total.
Polaron is allso a good way besides plasma if the ship doesent have many sci consoles because of the high Jem'Hadar 2 set bonus.
All in all if you dont chose plasma there really is no difference what energy type you chose, the procs are really marginal in comparison to the modificators.
1. Plasma Infused consoles give a strength boost, not a bonus boost. Strength boosts only act on base damage; so they are much weaker than bonus boosts which apply to damage after consoles/skillpoints/power/etc. The 2-set bonuses from the 8472 Counter-Command and Obelisk sets are bonus boosts.
2. The Jem'Hadar Set bonus is also a strength boost, not a bonus boost.
3. CrtH and CrtD need a 1:10 ratio for best performance. Before you hit a certain level of CritH/CritD, the [Dmg] mod will technically be better. [Dmg] adds +10% base damage to a weapon hit so this will vary a little; but on an average build with reasonable skillpoint investment and 125 Weapons power; the break-even point with [Dmg] for average damage added over time will be around 6.5 CritH/65 CritD.
4. Acc is by far the best mod. This is due to Accuracy Overflow - whenever you are already at 100% chance to hit, an Acc mod equates to +1.25 CritH and +5 CritD. And if you aren't at 100% chance to hit, hitting something is always going to be better than not hitting it.
From a raw numbers point of view, Acc is therefore always going to be the best boost you can get... however as mentioned in point #3 above, the optimum balance between CritH and CritD is 1:10. You're technically throwing this balance out a little bit whenever you overcap accuracy in this way... you need 7.5 CritD to make it up again. The upshot is that if you start overstacking accuracy, you need a little more CritD.
Bottom line: Stack Accuracy all the time, and add in a little CritD whenever you start overstacking (7.5 CritD for every 10 Acc over the cap).
As far as best DPS weapons go, there are too many things that factor into it so it is going to vary from ship to ship and build to build. If you've got a lot of science console slots the fleet science consoles +Pla seems like a great idea, but whether or not it is actually more effective than the 10% bonus damage from the AP set bonus is going to depend on what you're giving up to get that bonus. You have to give up the AMP bonus from a fleet core, the plasma buff from fleet sci consoles, and you'll lose the damage gain from the Rom Sing Harness set (and the 3 piece click power, for whatever that's worth, since you'll not want to use the plasma beam array anymore). For other damage types that rely on special consoles to boost damage, is it worth having to give up the Zero Point, or the Proton Stabilizer, or the Assimilated Module, or a Vulnerability Locator, or the Leech, or the Nukara console, or your cloak...etc. to fit them in? Different weapon types have different possible modifier combinations, so the AP bonus is great but the [Acc]x2 on Andorian Phasers might be more helpful on your particular build. And these are just a few of the things you've got to consider when you try and definitively answer this question. There is simply no way to find the real best weapon type without doing an exhausted search of all possible ship, gear, trait, boff, doff, and skill combinations then taking into account the limitations of available modifiers.
The other thing people tend to gloss over is that your DPS suffers immensely when you're waiting for the respawn timer to hit zero. Even if you found the theoretical absolute best combination, your DPS goes into the toilet if you're blowing up all the time.
For PvE any weapon type is viable, especially if you're a decent pilot and/or have access to things like the Vulnerability Locators. PvP is a bit of a different story. Players are simply better at dealing with certain weapon types than others because resistance is readily available on commonly used gear or their proc is easily countered or what have you.
Ultimately the way I see it is that you've either got to find something you like and make the most of it or be willing to spend a ton of resources trying new things to constantly tweak your build. Like all MMOs, STO is constantly evolving which means trying to have the "best" build/gear/ship/anything is a never ending chase.
tl;dr - People are gonna call each other morons and never come to a consensus. Use what you like and/or what works for you.
Technically this is correct when talking about the abstract concepts of Critical Chance and Critical Severity... however I'm talking about weapon mods above, hence the references to [CritH], [CritD], [Acc] and [Dmg].
Weapon mods operate at an 'exchange rate' between CritH and CritD of 1:10, hence the optimum balance ratio of 1:10. Whenever you start factoring in other sources of Chance and Severity things get a lot murkier because of the varied 'exchange rates' between Chance and Severity in those other sources - the optimal ratio of CRITICAL CHANCE and CRITICAL SEVERITY will change depending on the amount of each you can get for any given investment.
Example: Advanced Tac Consoles. They grant 1.6% Critical Chance or 8% Critical Severity. The exchange rate and optimal ratio for these is not 1:10 like with weapon mods, but 1:5.
This changing "exchange rate" between Chance and Severity can be confusing; but you can simplify everything greatly whenever you just focus on the basic Crit Damage formula.
(1-CritChance)*Damage + CritChance*Damage*(1+CritSeverity) = Crit-adjusted average Damage
That still looks a bit complex... so, example:
Say we get 200 damage normally per shot after buffs.
With (60% Severity) and (5% Crit Chance) we would expect to see an additional 60% of that 200 damage whenever a crit occurs (1.6*200=320 damage total) and we would expect to actually see one of those Crits happen at an average rate of 5% (so on average; 95% of all hits would be at 200 damage, and 5% of all hits would be at 320 damage).
This works out at (1-0.05)*200 + 0.05*200*(1+0.6) = 190 + 16 = 206 Crit-adjusted average Damage.
You can plug in whatever values of Chance and Severity you're currently at to find your current Crit-Adjusted damage. Whenever you start to look at what adding new equipment would do for you, plug in two sets of "new" values: once with the stats choosing an additional "CritH" item would give you, and once with the stats choosing an additional "CritD" item would give you. Then compare the results.
(Or you could just use a calculator to do it all for you, like this one the thread you linked referred to)
The rule of thumb is to balance the number of "Crit Chance" items you get with the same number of "Crit Severity" items. But essentially you're always trying to get the largest possible value of [Chance x Severity]
Odan Brota (Science Officer): Captain of a 28k DPS Scryer Intel Science Vessel, U.S.S. Kepler
Patiently waiting for a Romulan Science Vessel