Well, my personal opinion, nabreeki, is that the GMs should actively police known problem zones, like Drozana and ESD, for bigotry and stupidity. Banning people for party poppers and stuff is dumb.
However, I would like to see a 15-minute chat ban for anyone who tells a Gorn joke (administered by GMs to prevent accidents). Seriously, those things are really getting old, and they weren't very funny in the first place, and some of them are really decidedly creepy.
I have actually seen GMs surface from the depths to handle situations on several occasions. One had to do with some horribly inappropriate conversation on ESD. The GM actually stopped the conversation, and, in zone, told those involved to knock it off or face punitive measures. In another example, there was a bug on New Romulus that was being exploited, and the GM appeared and inquired about the bug, warned the offenders, and reported it to the Dev team to fix in the next patch (which it was).
I'm not saying the GMs are always around to take care of things -- this is far from the truth, as we all know -- but they are around, and I guess they step in when they see fit to intervene. I agree whole-heartedly with the previous post about the discussion of r*** in ESD zone -- that should never be tolerated, and that kind of blatant offense should be handled swiftly.
However, in other respects, I wonder what actually constitutes "trolling" and "harassment." There are certainly those who think using party poppers should be a punishable offense, which is hilariously misguided. Sorry to get some balloons all over your precious TREK, but the GMs should not have to answer to that. I'm sure there is something -- anything, really -- that can be considered more pressing or important than policing poppers. Napping, even.
While some of the usual suspects predictably jumped on this thread to point fingers, albeit indirectly, the implication is clear. And what's also clear from this thread is that the definitions of what GMs should respond to covers an incredibly broad spectrum, from policing ESD zone chat from justifiable complaints of racism, misogyny, bigotry, etc, to "gorn jokes."
Self policing is always preferable to enforced policing.
Thus, I can see why in game GMs use an extremely light hand.
Otherwise, drawing the line between actionable and non-actionable becomes difficult.
Up to a point, open RP and throwing poppers are similar behaviours.
They attract and annoy people at the same time, they're polarising.
Provided such camps dont try to enforce their way of doing things on everyone, we're golden.
The problem would arise if a viewpoint along these lines starts being seen by its adherents as the one twue way.
From the way i see it you only need 2 people and good piece of software. 1 person who monitors ESD, DS( and other base and certain sector block zone chats and the other person handles planet side and other sector zone chats or something (either way its spit evenly between them. and the software searches for keywords like ****, glorification, etc this is flagged up and is brought forward so they can monitor it and then intervene if necessary. It is just a rough idea and there might be problems but the fact they were making the attempt would be some sort of relief. But like i say it just a rough idea and im sure that someone with a background in this sort of thing could come up with a better idea.
And in terms of bench mark i suppose it should be a lose definition with the moderator having a final say as an "impartial" person having read through the chat exchange and making the judgement on who started it etc and narrowing it down to who's at fault and punishing that person, but this should be done in extreme cases.
And the common case of people been morons and annoying it should be the ignore/ mute button option.
But i do agree that moderators are needed, for the simple fact that we want this game to be around for a long time, i like this game, i have fun, i enjoy spending time with my fleet mates and when i finish work i jump on to have a laugh and relax. How would this game last and continue if new people who had just joined were to log in and see the awful things that people were saying in zone chat??? it would put them off, they wouldn't come back, the game would lose money and would end up closing. 2 years ago when i first joined it wasn't so bad. And over the past 2 years it has steadily gotten worse. So i think a clamp down is needed.
On the flip side maybe the we do have moderators, and the issue is a lack of equipment, software, or a authority from PW/ Cryptic to be able to do anything about the foul comments in the chat.
Well, my personal opinion, nabreeki, is that the GMs should actively police known problem zones, like Drozana and ESD, for bigotry and stupidity. Banning people for party poppers and stuff is dumb.
However, I would like to see a 15-minute chat ban for anyone who tells a Gorn joke (administered by GMs to prevent accidents). Seriously, those things are really getting old, and they weren't very funny in the first place, and some of them are really decidedly creepy.
No one is gorna get banned for Gorn jokes. While they may be bad, even temporary bans would create an atmosphere where things could get tense quick. That is not gorna happen.
I really tried there... I could not fit in more.
NERF CANNONS - THEY NEED A 50% NERF
CRUISERS NEED A 206% HULL BUFF
I have actually seen GMs surface from the depths to handle situations on several occasions. One had to do with some horribly inappropriate conversation on ESD. The GM actually stopped the conversation, and, in zone, told those involved to knock it off or face punitive measures. In another example, there was a bug on New Romulus that was being exploited, and the GM appeared and inquired about the bug, warned the offenders, and reported it to the Dev team to fix in the next patch (which it was).
I'm not saying the GMs are always around to take care of things -- this is far from the truth, as we all know -- but they are around, and I guess they step in when they see fit to intervene. I agree whole-heartedly with the previous post about the discussion of r*** in ESD zone -- that should never be tolerated, and that kind of blatant offense should be handled swiftly.
However, in other respects, I wonder what actually constitutes "trolling" and "harassment." There are certainly those who think using party poppers should be a punishable offense, which is hilariously misguided. Sorry to get some balloons all over your precious TREK, but the GMs should not have to answer to that. I'm sure there is something -- anything, really -- that can be considered more pressing or important than policing poppers. Napping, even.
While some of the usual suspects predictably jumped on this thread to point fingers, albeit indirectly, the implication is clear. And what's also clear from this thread is that the definitions of what GMs should respond to covers an incredibly broad spectrum, from policing ESD zone chat from justifiable complaints of racism, misogyny, bigotry, etc, to "gorn jokes."
I agree, GMs have a broad definition to deal with. Stuff like party poppers and certain conversations are questionable and purely opinionated, and "Where's Sulu?" and Gorn jokes are very light, if trivial, annoyances. Or, for me at least, a brief respite from the monotony of grinding.
However, there are other cases where a GM should definitely step in and stop a conversation - such as anything that blatantly and clearly violates the Terms of Service. The issue you mentioned about in Zone chat is one such example - others include threats, continual harassment, purposely trolling events and locations, etc. These not only detract from the game experience, but also create an unsafe environment.
It is Cryptic/PWE's duty to provide "law enforcement" (for lack of a better word) to make sure users abide by the Terms of Service, and more importantly, prevent or punish offenders from breaking the ToS. Although I can't say I know the result of the latter, I do know that Cryptic/PWE's GMs are not preventing the offenders from continuing their activities. I'm surprised to hear they have surfaced at least once - I have never seen one post in chat myself, in the last two to three years. This is quite a bad sign - where are they, and what are they really doing?
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
There shouldn't be bans for Gorn jokes. If they are "decidedly creepy," then perhaps some action could be considered, but you don't give chat bans because jokes aren't funny, or because you don't personally like them. That is entirely subjective and should not even factor in to GM behavior.
Next: "bigotry and stupidity" -- I understand bigotry. That is entirely unacceptable and should be dealt with swiftly (though, I have not witnessed too much bigotry on Drozana. I've seen a lot more on DS9/ESD). However, what constitutes "stupidity?" Again, that's an entirely subjective and broad term that one could apply to nearly everything s/he does not personally approve of, and needs to be fleshed out.
--Creepy: Sexual harassment, stalking, or lecherous comments that a GM decides violate TOS.
--Bigotry: I think we both understand that. Racism, homophobia, overt sexism.
--Stupidity: Conspiracy theories, spamming, incessant and increasingly pathetic Gorn jokes, the more pathetic strains of RSH.
In general, anything that violates TOS should result in a ban.
Last I checked stupidity was not against the TOS. If it was, gorna be bad.
Stupidity as I outlined it may not always violate the letter of the TOS, but it DEFINITELY violates the spirit of the TOS.
C'mon, people. This is STAR TREK Online. We're all (or mostly all) Trekkies here. How many times do people uphold the spirit of the law over the letter in Star Trek?
Stupidity as I outlined it may not always violate the letter of the TOS, but it DEFINITELY violates the spirit of the TOS.
C'mon, people. This is STAR TREK Online. We're all (or mostly all) Trekkies here. How many times do people uphold the spirit of the law over the letter in Star Trek?
It is also a game were people are gorna have fun. You may not like thebjokes but they are gorna keep happening because some enjoy them.
NERF CANNONS - THEY NEED A 50% NERF
CRUISERS NEED A 206% HULL BUFF
It is also a game were people are gorna have fun. You may not like thebjokes but they are gorna keep happening because some enjoy them.
Yeah, but what about the enjoyment of the people who want to put a fist through their computers every time they see some sad hack write a Gorn joke while under the false impression that he is amusing?
Yeah, but what about the enjoyment of the people who want to put a fist through their computers every time they see some sad hack write a Gorn joke while under the false impression that he is amusing?
I do not find some people funny while others do. It is all subjective.
Gorn.
NERF CANNONS - THEY NEED A 50% NERF
CRUISERS NEED A 206% HULL BUFF
Yeah, but what about the enjoyment of the people who want to put a fist through their computers every time they see some sad hack write a Gorn joke while under the false impression that he is amusing?
There are in game GM's that do monitor certain chat areas (AFAIK they do hang out in ESD I've seen a few pop up from time to time) for violations of the Terms of Service. That said, they are stretched out and even then what you or I might constitute a violation of the TOS doesn't mean it really is.
If you engage in conversation with someone you think should be banned, then that's your own doing. You cannot turn around and say "hey i discussed things with this guy, he was obviously a troll so he needs a ban". If I was the GM and i saw two people engaging in inappropriate chat that violated the TOS, they'd both be muted as there is an obvious feature that was mentioned called ignore.
Ignore and reporting people are your two best options in these kinds of situations. If you don't do either, then that's your own fault. Not the GM's for not doing their job (which they do but it might not be how you want it to be).
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
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Freedom of speech, Freedom of expression cant get more Star Trek then that,
Something to think about.
True, and I'm all for freedom of speech. However the question is - how far does freedom of speech stretch? Remember, there are limits established by the society as to what is acceptible and what is not.
Freedom of speech is not suposed to be an alibi for deviants to spur hatred speech.
Besides, STO is not a democracy, it's a private property and there are the TOS which are private rules that explain what is and what is not acceptable in STO itself.
Seriously, go look at General Discussion- there are at least 2 chronic creators of troll threads, spamming like Hormel. Never seeing another post from either waste of forum space would be no loss to anyone except the trolls themselves. To steal the RP zealots' favorite twisted argument, why does Cryptic defend these people's right to break the rules rather than enforcing them, and why can't we have the tools to free ourselves of their negative effects since Cryptic can't be bothered to do anything about it?
I'll let the devs know, but last I checked it was in the works.
--Stupidity: Conspiracy theories, spamming, incessant and increasingly pathetic Gorn jokes, the more pathetic strains of RSH.
In general, anything that violates TOS should result in a ban.
I can't find any mention of stupidity in the ToS. And I'm here to tell you, the day it's added and that rule enforced will be the quietest time ever in Zone chat...with nothing left there but the GMs. The wise are careful what they wish for, and I'm not seeing much wisdom in the desire to have stupidity made into a bannable offense- because every single last one of us, bar none, has at some point been guilty of stupidity in chat.
As for Gorn jokes...banning stupidity makes more sense.
Now I'm gonna just play a little tune on this banjo Kermit the Frog himself gave me...
If you engage in conversation with someone you think should be banned, then that's your own doing. You cannot turn around and say "hey i discussed things with this guy, he was obviously a troll so he needs a ban". If I was the GM and i saw two people engaging in inappropriate chat that violated the TOS, they'd both be muted as there is an obvious feature that was mentioned called ignore..
Since when are gorn jokes against Tos or linking doffsor other items in chat against ToS?I see lots of people getting banned for that.
Banned for being against TOS should be replaced with "I woke up on the wrong side today" or "I ban you because I dont like you" ...at least that would make it alot more fair for everyone.I see those who erp in zone chat are fine ,being called jackass is fine but saying gorn jokes or not ignoring everyone is a bannable offense.
There are in game GM's that do monitor certain chat areas (AFAIK they do hang out in ESD I've seen a few pop up from time to time) for violations of the Terms of Service. That said, they are stretched out and even then what you or I might constitute a violation of the TOS doesn't mean it really is.
If you engage in conversation with someone you think should be banned, then that's your own doing. You cannot turn around and say "hey i discussed things with this guy, he was obviously a troll so he needs a ban". If I was the GM and i saw two people engaging in inappropriate chat that violated the TOS, they'd both be muted as there is an obvious feature that was mentioned called ignore.
Ignore and reporting people are your two best options in these kinds of situations. If you don't do either, then that's your own fault. Not the GM's for not doing their job (which they do but it might not be how you want it to be).
Considering the fact your supposed to be a "community moderator" i think you might need to take some "diplomacy" courses. Your last paragraph is quiet sarcastic and seems to be "blame labeling". To be more specific "Ignore and reporting people are your two best options in these kinds of situations. If you don't do either, then that's your own fault."
It is NOT our job OR RESPONSIBILTY to police zone chat. and yes we DO report people. what we are debating is the fact that we need people employed to police the chat so they can see it with their own eyes and take action. We the players are here to have fun. Not do your or anyone elses job for them.
In addition considering the fact your a "community moderator" your setting a very poor example with your own responses. I suggest you take a leaf out of our book and be more diplomatic with your own responses. Maybe you could "ignore us or possibly report us" as these ARE your "best two options in this kind of situation", and like you said "If you don't then that is your own fault".
Still needing the ol' irony detector tuned, I see...
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Comments
However, I would like to see a 15-minute chat ban for anyone who tells a Gorn joke (administered by GMs to prevent accidents). Seriously, those things are really getting old, and they weren't very funny in the first place, and some of them are really decidedly creepy.
Self policing is always preferable to enforced policing.
Thus, I can see why in game GMs use an extremely light hand.
Otherwise, drawing the line between actionable and non-actionable becomes difficult.
Up to a point, open RP and throwing poppers are similar behaviours.
They attract and annoy people at the same time, they're polarising.
Provided such camps dont try to enforce their way of doing things on everyone, we're golden.
The problem would arise if a viewpoint along these lines starts being seen by its adherents as the one twue way.
And in terms of bench mark i suppose it should be a lose definition with the moderator having a final say as an "impartial" person having read through the chat exchange and making the judgement on who started it etc and narrowing it down to who's at fault and punishing that person, but this should be done in extreme cases.
And the common case of people been morons and annoying it should be the ignore/ mute button option.
But i do agree that moderators are needed, for the simple fact that we want this game to be around for a long time, i like this game, i have fun, i enjoy spending time with my fleet mates and when i finish work i jump on to have a laugh and relax. How would this game last and continue if new people who had just joined were to log in and see the awful things that people were saying in zone chat??? it would put them off, they wouldn't come back, the game would lose money and would end up closing. 2 years ago when i first joined it wasn't so bad. And over the past 2 years it has steadily gotten worse. So i think a clamp down is needed.
On the flip side maybe the we do have moderators, and the issue is a lack of equipment, software, or a authority from PW/ Cryptic to be able to do anything about the foul comments in the chat.
No one is gorna get banned for Gorn jokes. While they may be bad, even temporary bans would create an atmosphere where things could get tense quick. That is not gorna happen.
I really tried there... I could not fit in more.
CRUISERS NEED A 206% HULL BUFF
I agree, GMs have a broad definition to deal with. Stuff like party poppers and certain conversations are questionable and purely opinionated, and "Where's Sulu?" and Gorn jokes are very light, if trivial, annoyances. Or, for me at least, a brief respite from the monotony of grinding.
However, there are other cases where a GM should definitely step in and stop a conversation - such as anything that blatantly and clearly violates the Terms of Service. The issue you mentioned about in Zone chat is one such example - others include threats, continual harassment, purposely trolling events and locations, etc. These not only detract from the game experience, but also create an unsafe environment.
It is Cryptic/PWE's duty to provide "law enforcement" (for lack of a better word) to make sure users abide by the Terms of Service, and more importantly, prevent or punish offenders from breaking the ToS. Although I can't say I know the result of the latter, I do know that Cryptic/PWE's GMs are not preventing the offenders from continuing their activities. I'm surprised to hear they have surfaced at least once - I have never seen one post in chat myself, in the last two to three years. This is quite a bad sign - where are they, and what are they really doing?
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
--Creepy: Sexual harassment, stalking, or lecherous comments that a GM decides violate TOS.
--Bigotry: I think we both understand that. Racism, homophobia, overt sexism.
--Stupidity: Conspiracy theories, spamming, incessant and increasingly pathetic Gorn jokes, the more pathetic strains of RSH.
In general, anything that violates TOS should result in a ban.
Last I checked stupidity was not against the TOS. If it was, gorna be bad.
CRUISERS NEED A 206% HULL BUFF
Stupidity as I outlined it may not always violate the letter of the TOS, but it DEFINITELY violates the spirit of the TOS.
C'mon, people. This is STAR TREK Online. We're all (or mostly all) Trekkies here. How many times do people uphold the spirit of the law over the letter in Star Trek?
It is also a game were people are gorna have fun. You may not like thebjokes but they are gorna keep happening because some enjoy them.
CRUISERS NEED A 206% HULL BUFF
Yeah, but what about the enjoyment of the people who want to put a fist through their computers every time they see some sad hack write a Gorn joke while under the false impression that he is amusing?
I do not find some people funny while others do. It is all subjective.
Gorn.
CRUISERS NEED A 206% HULL BUFF
I assume such enjoyment would be Gorn.
Hail something or other....
If you engage in conversation with someone you think should be banned, then that's your own doing. You cannot turn around and say "hey i discussed things with this guy, he was obviously a troll so he needs a ban". If I was the GM and i saw two people engaging in inappropriate chat that violated the TOS, they'd both be muted as there is an obvious feature that was mentioned called ignore.
Ignore and reporting people are your two best options in these kinds of situations. If you don't do either, then that's your own fault. Not the GM's for not doing their job (which they do but it might not be how you want it to be).
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
(_)
( _)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■)
... gorn tomorrow
Sorry JK:P mostly but you all get the point I hope
Freedom of speech, Freedom of expression cant get more Star Trek then that,
Something to think about.
Actually, I'd add one caveat.
No freedom from consequences.
Also very star trek.
Further violations of forum rules will result in warnings and possible thread closure.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
True, and I'm all for freedom of speech. However the question is - how far does freedom of speech stretch? Remember, there are limits established by the society as to what is acceptible and what is not.
Freedom of speech is not suposed to be an alibi for deviants to spur hatred speech.
Besides, STO is not a democracy, it's a private property and there are the TOS which are private rules that explain what is and what is not acceptable in STO itself.
Supposedly "in the works."
I can't find any mention of stupidity in the ToS. And I'm here to tell you, the day it's added and that rule enforced will be the quietest time ever in Zone chat...with nothing left there but the GMs. The wise are careful what they wish for, and I'm not seeing much wisdom in the desire to have stupidity made into a bannable offense- because every single last one of us, bar none, has at some point been guilty of stupidity in chat.
As for Gorn jokes...banning stupidity makes more sense.
Now I'm gonna just play a little tune on this banjo Kermit the Frog himself gave me...
-sings- "It's not easy bein' Breen..."
Isn't there a Whitney Houston song like that?
Andooooriiiaaaaaa will always go on......
from now one KID is a insult.
Since when are gorn jokes against Tos or linking doffsor other items in chat against ToS?I see lots of people getting banned for that.
Banned for being against TOS should be replaced with "I woke up on the wrong side today" or "I ban you because I dont like you" ...at least that would make it alot more fair for everyone.I see those who erp in zone chat are fine ,being called jackass is fine but saying gorn jokes or not ignoring everyone is a bannable offense.
Breen there, gorn that?
Mustrum "New to this kiddie stuff" Ridcully
Considering the fact your supposed to be a "community moderator" i think you might need to take some "diplomacy" courses. Your last paragraph is quiet sarcastic and seems to be "blame labeling". To be more specific "Ignore and reporting people are your two best options in these kinds of situations. If you don't do either, then that's your own fault."
It is NOT our job OR RESPONSIBILTY to police zone chat. and yes we DO report people. what we are debating is the fact that we need people employed to police the chat so they can see it with their own eyes and take action. We the players are here to have fun. Not do your or anyone elses job for them.
In addition considering the fact your a "community moderator" your setting a very poor example with your own responses. I suggest you take a leaf out of our book and be more diplomatic with your own responses. Maybe you could "ignore us or possibly report us" as these ARE your "best two options in this kind of situation", and like you said "If you don't then that is your own fault".
While I agree that banning people for party poppers and Gorn jokes is silly (hell, I've used a few of the latter), there's an xkcd you oughta read.
All freedom of expression means is that the government can't arrest you for what you're saying. It doesn't make idiocy less idiotic.
Still needing the ol' irony detector tuned, I see...
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/