It has not been established as sentient. Considering that you call in a Undine Bioshp Stampede by activating that super-laser power, they may have animal level intellect, reacting instinctively to signals.
So they are very much unlike Galaxy or Intrepid Class computer systems, which can create sentient holograms or become sentient themselves. (Both was shown in TNG, and an extra example of sentient holograms we've seen in VOY.)
Of course, they may be sentient, and they may serve us willingly. I kinda would have preferred that - there were, after all, a group of Undine that was willing to leave us alone after negotiating with Captain Janeway. Maybe there are secretely Undine rebels that don't believe the "The Weak Shall Perish" propaganda and help us.
(They could still exist, and carefully send us Undine Bioships with genetic traits that make them easier to modify for our purposes. But that's fanwank.)
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
It has not been established as sentient. Considering that you call in a Undine Bioshp Stampede by activating that super-laser power, they may have animal level intellect, reacting instinctively to signals.
So they are very much unlike Galaxy or Intrepid Class computer systems, which can create sentient holograms or become sentient themselves. (Both was shown in TNG, and an extra example of sentient holograms we've seen in VOY.)
Of course, they may be sentient, and they may serve us willingly. I kinda would have preferred that - there were, after all, a group of Undine that was willing to leave us alone after negotiating with Captain Janeway. Maybe there are secretely Undine rebels that don't believe the "The Weak Shall Perish" propaganda and help us.
(They could still exist, and carefully send us Undine Bioships with genetic traits that make them easier to modify for our purposes. But that's fanwank.)
Even if they have an animal-level intellect, there are still moral issues with taking an ice cream scoop to their brain to make them more controllable.
I don't think the ability or inability to create holograms is indicative of the sentience of the ship in question. There isn't much indication that the computers/brains of the Undine bioships Undine are any more or less potent.
The other two 'bioships' I Star Trek lore we should be considering are the Gekli (at least in STO, not sure about elsewhere) and the Gomtuu. Both of which were sentient. There's certainly a notable precedent at work here. Most bioships in Star Trek seem to be sentient, wheras most non-living ships are not. The concern is not unfounded.
I agree that the best way to handle it would be for the ships to be gifts from non-hostile undine or something like that.
As far as I am aware, Slavery is only when a concious sentient being is being enslaved. If the ship is more of just an organic mass or even animal like then it will not be considered as slavery.
I would say look in the real world today - we use animals in many ways that would be considered slavery if it were humans in their position.
We basically arbitrairally decide what is and what isnt considered 'important' for all intents and purposes.
Even if they have an animal-level intellect, there are still moral issues with taking an ice cream scoop to their brain to make them more controllable.
I don't think the ability or inability to create holograms is indicative of the sentience of the ship in question. There isn't much indication that the computers/brains of the Undine bioships Undine are any more or less potent.
The other two 'bioships' I Star Trek lore we should be considering are the Gekli (at least in STO, not sure about elsewhere) and the Gomtuu. Both of which were sentient. There's certainly a notable precedent at work here. Most bioships in Star Trek seem to be sentient, wheras most non-living ships are not. The concern is not unfounded.
I agree that the best way to handle it would be for the ships to be gifts from non-hostile undine or something like that.
Maybe... Just maybe... The Federation ethics council discussed this, weighted all the evidence, and decided that using Undine bioships would be ethically and morally okay, and thus allowed Starfleet to procure Bioships from the Lobi Consortium?
Who is to say that the changes made are like taking an ice screem scoop to the brain? What if they are more like putting a saddle on a horse? What if they are even more benefiitial - suddenly, the Undine bioship can "hear the thoughts" of more than just a single Undine pilot, it can sense other beings, and realizes what a wonderful world is out there?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
If you are a vegetarian - do you fly Undine Ships or the Yoyager (or any other"meat" ship) I am a Pescetarian, and if I was not a member of STB (see sig), and if I were rich enough to have a Undine ship- yes. Not sure what the Voyager/Yeager has to do with anything though....
Would you do? Would you.....do?
And let's say you are a vegan. Do you play startrek anyway?
Collecting Gagh for you health and kill meat ships?
I'm not Vegan, but I don't see what it has to do with playing STO. The ships are not made of meat, not sure where you get that from....
Do you?......do.......you?
My answers in red. Also, most people will need this link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pescetarianism (Don't know why that says Carmine (Natural red 40, E120) is ok, it is crushed beetles. Seriously. Look it up. You ould also search for cochineal.)
Maybe... Just maybe... The Federation ethics council discussed this, weighted all the evidence, and decided that using Undine bioships would be ethically and morally okay, and thus allowed Starfleet to procure Bioships from the Lobi Consortium?
Who is to say that the changes made are like taking an ice screem scoop to the brain? What if they are more like putting a saddle on a horse? What if they are even more benefiitial - suddenly, the Undine bioship can "hear the thoughts" of more than just a single Undine pilot, it can sense other beings, and realizes what a wonderful world is out there?
According to Cryptic, the ships have undergone 'extensive modifications' including draining the interior of bioplasma.
Also, considering the fact that the ships have a telepathic interface that allows for a single undine to pilot them, yet have undergone modifications to circumvent this that require a new compliment of 250-400 crewmembers to run seems to indicate that not only have many of its normally autonomous systems been removed, but that there have been some rather substantial implementation of cybernetic implants to control its functions (otherwise why would you need 250-400 when you needed one before)
Seems very little like putting a saddle on a horse IMO.
Even if the ships were perfectly OK with these modifications and their new pilots, it would still be slavery since they are being sold at a profit by the ferengi, and the federation is buying them (not as much an issue for the KDF and possibly RR I think)
If they are sentient, and there are many reasons to suspect they are-then there really isn't any excuse for the federation to be using them. The modifications must have been quite extreme to make the ship compatible with conventional standards, and there is a definite precedent for intelligent bioships with symbiotic telepathic relationships with their pilots to consider.
the way i see it, even if the ships are sentient or at least aware. they are warships, bred from warships. like a hunting dog that was abandonded by its master gets a new home. its not slavery as such its more like offering this living ship a chance to live again, remember it was disabled in a battle and abandoned by the undine, i expect they vounteered to be refit to fight for the alpha/beta races as this is what they are made/bred for..fighting. anyway in short its not slavery, should i be lucky enough to get one i may want to give it a suitably daft name, like spot or fluffy:D
According to this the ships have spiderweb like eps, bone supports, and something like a nervous system that acts like a computer core so this isn't plant.
Still having the computer core be a nervous system instead of a brain, means these these creatures are unlikely to have sentients, and instead react to sitimuli reflexively, like when someone hits your knee and your leg automically kicks out.
It would also make intergrating mechanical systems into the ship much easier as, all you need to do is have a device that can translate neuropeptides into electrical (or what Quanta?) That the more conventional technology uses and from the Quanta back into neuropeptides again. For electical system have a device that converts the power that goes through the spiderweb like eps system into something mechanical based technology can use.
Still any holograms downloaded into the ships computers, would in a sense be both photonic and organic.
Comments
So they are very much unlike Galaxy or Intrepid Class computer systems, which can create sentient holograms or become sentient themselves. (Both was shown in TNG, and an extra example of sentient holograms we've seen in VOY.)
Of course, they may be sentient, and they may serve us willingly. I kinda would have preferred that - there were, after all, a group of Undine that was willing to leave us alone after negotiating with Captain Janeway. Maybe there are secretely Undine rebels that don't believe the "The Weak Shall Perish" propaganda and help us.
(They could still exist, and carefully send us Undine Bioships with genetic traits that make them easier to modify for our purposes. But that's fanwank.)
I don't think the ability or inability to create holograms is indicative of the sentience of the ship in question. There isn't much indication that the computers/brains of the Undine bioships Undine are any more or less potent.
The other two 'bioships' I Star Trek lore we should be considering are the Gekli (at least in STO, not sure about elsewhere) and the Gomtuu. Both of which were sentient. There's certainly a notable precedent at work here. Most bioships in Star Trek seem to be sentient, wheras most non-living ships are not. The concern is not unfounded.
I agree that the best way to handle it would be for the ships to be gifts from non-hostile undine or something like that.
If you are a vegetarian - do you fly Undine Ships or the Yoyager (or any other"meat" ship)
Would you do? Would you.....do?
And let's say you are a vegan. Do you play startrek anyway?
Collecting Gagh for you health and kill meat ships?
Do you?......do.......you?
I would say look in the real world today - we use animals in many ways that would be considered slavery if it were humans in their position.
We basically arbitrairally decide what is and what isnt considered 'important' for all intents and purposes.
Who is to say that the changes made are like taking an ice screem scoop to the brain? What if they are more like putting a saddle on a horse? What if they are even more benefiitial - suddenly, the Undine bioship can "hear the thoughts" of more than just a single Undine pilot, it can sense other beings, and realizes what a wonderful world is out there?
My answers in red. Also, most people will need this link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pescetarianism (Don't know why that says Carmine (Natural red 40, E120) is ok, it is crushed beetles. Seriously. Look it up. You ould also search for cochineal.)
I actually like Delta Rising.
Also, considering the fact that the ships have a telepathic interface that allows for a single undine to pilot them, yet have undergone modifications to circumvent this that require a new compliment of 250-400 crewmembers to run seems to indicate that not only have many of its normally autonomous systems been removed, but that there have been some rather substantial implementation of cybernetic implants to control its functions (otherwise why would you need 250-400 when you needed one before)
Seems very little like putting a saddle on a horse IMO.
Even if the ships were perfectly OK with these modifications and their new pilots, it would still be slavery since they are being sold at a profit by the ferengi, and the federation is buying them (not as much an issue for the KDF and possibly RR I think)
If they are sentient, and there are many reasons to suspect they are-then there really isn't any excuse for the federation to be using them. The modifications must have been quite extreme to make the ship compatible with conventional standards, and there is a definite precedent for intelligent bioships with symbiotic telepathic relationships with their pilots to consider.
According to this the ships have spiderweb like eps, bone supports, and something like a nervous system that acts like a computer core so this isn't plant.
Still having the computer core be a nervous system instead of a brain, means these these creatures are unlikely to have sentients, and instead react to sitimuli reflexively, like when someone hits your knee and your leg automically kicks out.
It would also make intergrating mechanical systems into the ship much easier as, all you need to do is have a device that can translate neuropeptides into electrical (or what Quanta?) That the more conventional technology uses and from the Quanta back into neuropeptides again. For electical system have a device that converts the power that goes through the spiderweb like eps system into something mechanical based technology can use.
Still any holograms downloaded into the ships computers, would in a sense be both photonic and organic.
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