Unlike others on the forums I like the idea of playable undine ships, having living ships.
And your explaination that refitting them meant requiring crews and stuff is cool, although more details on how this was done would be cool, as well as how one mixing mechanical and biotech on that level.
But from the description of them, I'm wondering are they sentient like Tin Man?
And if so does this count as Slavery?
Or does the federation, Empire, and Republic grow they're own reprogramed verison loyal to them?
What sort of rights do these ships have as living beings?
And while I'm at it isn't wrong to kill the laval ships, isn't that like killing Childern?
And the ships are made from the same genetic material as the Undine, do that mean the ships are not just usef by that race, but members of it? Are captains flying inside of the Undine?
And if so do those ships have 5 different genders like the tripedal Undine?
Regular Undine ships have a single pilot that commands the ship psionically, that suggests a direct link between the pilots brain and the ships brain, which means that ship has a brain to be psionically effected. Do refiting these ships so a psionic link is unneeded mean the ships brain is labodimized and replaced with a conventional computer core? Or is this a purely software problem aka training the ship to interact with more conventional technology?
To fuse mechanical technology to the ship, like deflectors and various warpcore, does one use borg technology? If not how is the cyborgification of the living ship achieved? Voth technology?
The ships are not sentient. They are just comprised of organic material. The larval ships, likewise, are not sentient/sapient/intelligent. They are more like bio-neural gel packs than, say, a dog.
As far as the rest, I think playable Undine ships makes absolutely no sense from a lore standpoint. Building a control interface for the ship would be, I think, problematic to say the least.
They seem to be more like plants than animals, grown en masse in large "fields" to enter service when they are "ripe". So no, I don't think there's any ethical problem with it.
The ships are not sentient. They are just comprised of organic material. The larval ships, likewise, are not sentient/sapient/intelligent. They are more like bio-neural gel packs than, say, a dog.
As far as the rest, I think playable Undine ships makes absolutely no sense from a lore standpoint. Building a control interface for the ship would be, I think, problematic to say the least.
That's where cybernetic technology comes in, which could have been obtained from the Borg and Voth amoung other sources.
So thier more like high functioning animals, I guess if it was sentient why would you need a pilot in the first place.
Still there is the issue of cruelity to animals.
i don't think the ship is capable of feeling pain, or even an animal at all, remember the undine universe is different from ours, "organic" material is pretty much the same as metal to them.
Now that I think of it though, it would probably make more sense if they were sentient. Then all the playable Undine ships floating around would be defectors escaping from their cruel Undine overlords. Huh, that's not bad.
Now that I think of it though, it would probably make more sense if they were sentient. Then all the playable Undine ships floating around would be defectors escaping from their cruel Undine overlords. Huh, that's not bad.
Didn't they have an episode or two on Trek that dealt with the ethics on treating bio-ships? It's been a while since I have watched the episode with the 'Tin Man', but I thought it was pretty horrible to see the Federation using disabled bioships for weapons testing.
Whatever is being done to the Undine ships likewise does not sit well with me.
The history of justifications for slavery are full of the type of qualifications in this thread.
They aren't fully "human." They are really "civilized." They are not really "sentient" like us... so all of it is right.
So many convenient justifications. What would Picard say?
Have you checked to make sure you aren't using an OLED monitor? That's a real-world example of organic technology. What's your justification for enslaving these poor innocent diodes??
Honestly that answers none of my questions at all.
It's a ship, that's grown.... has no feelings has nothing, the Undine just build ships out of meat just like the Federation make ships out of metal....Is the Voyager Alive, or sentient becasue it has a Bio-neural circuit, or is Voyager alive if Starfleet made Voyager completely out of Bio matter? it's alive like a virus is alive, but not sentient like a cow.
Have you checked to make sure you aren't using an OLED monitor? That's a real-world example of organic technology. What's your justification for enslaving these poor innocent diodes??
OLED monitors aren't living, last I checked. Nicors are massive, hyperadvanced multicellular creatures, that in this case are apparently getting parts of their brains scooped out so that federation captains can fly them around.
OLED monitors aren't living, last I checked. Nicors are massive, hyperadvanced multicellular creatures, that in this case are apparently getting parts of their brains scooped out so that federation captains can fly them around.
The person I was replying to (who I quoted, not sure how you missed it) was advancing the argument that non-sentience was no excuse for utilizing biological technology.
The person I was replying to (who I quoted, not sure how you missed it) was advancing the argument that non-sentience was no excuse for utilizing biological technology.
Our notions of "sentience" are biased by our perceptions of who and what counts. There must be an objective standard, given our history of classifying sentient things into non-sentient categories, in order to provide convenient justifications for slavery.
I like that it's a hot button issue, even for a shootemup mmo.
Also the Undine don't live in our universe, they don't have minerals and metals on planets like we do, they live on things that are like Coral, and like coral things can be grown on them, and that can be their version of mining.
If I grew a giant cucumber, and carved it into a floating boat, will it scream
it's not like the Undine took Cows, cut their heads off, carved them out and said here is a boat.
Also the Undine don't live in our universe, they don't have minerals and metals on planets like we do, they live on things that are like Coral, and like coral things can be grown on them, and that can be their version of mining.
If I grew a giant cucumber, and carved it into a floating boat, will it scream
it's not like the Undine took Cows, cut their heads off, carved them out and said here is a boat.
LOL
If I ever get my hands on an Undine ship and decide to fly it, I will name it the USS Screaming Cucumber.
it's not like the Undine took Cows, cut their heads off, carved them out and said here is a boat.
Where have you been all day? I beamed down to a farm Earth for after-action cleanup following the ESD attack and found a pack of undine staggering around, decapitating cows and yelling "HERE IS A BOAT!!!" at each other while laughing uproariously. They were clutching jugs of floor cleaner.
They also kept saying something about "making crop circles like in signs." Not sure what they meant.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
But from the description of them, I'm wondering are they sentient like Tin Man?
No I do't believe they are. They're made of organic matter, but that's about it. There are is no real neural activity at all. That's why they need the crew, the crew is the neural activity.
And if so does this count as Slavery?
Nope, becauase it's not so.
Or does the federation, Empire, and Republic grow they're own reprogramed verison loyal to them?
They probably "capture" them during raids on the Undine ship yards and somehow "reprogram" them to follow other races orders. At this point it goes from silly to the point of jumping the shark in it's idiocy, but there you go.
What sort of rights do these ships have as living beings?
No more then your average biogel pack or the cloned heart sitting in a vat somewhere. It's flesh, but no neural activity.
And while I'm at it isn't wrong to kill the laval ships, isn't that like killing Childern?
wait, so you're okay with flying a ship specifically designed to be worked by Undine psi powers, brought in from a different dimension, with no way to feed it or the shipyards to fix it when it gets really beat up. You're okay with being a Federation officer that has done more pre-emptive killing of all kinds of sentient beings, who has slaughter millions from all the ships we've destoryed, but are suddenly worried about killing larval ships?
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Mine Trap Supporter
Honestly that answers none of my questions at all.
As far as the rest, I think playable Undine ships makes absolutely no sense from a lore standpoint. Building a control interface for the ship would be, I think, problematic to say the least.
So thier more like high functioning animals, I guess if it was sentient why would you need a pilot in the first place.
Still there is the issue of cruelity to animals.
That's where cybernetic technology comes in, which could have been obtained from the Borg and Voth amoung other sources.
i don't think the ship is capable of feeling pain, or even an animal at all, remember the undine universe is different from ours, "organic" material is pretty much the same as metal to them.
are you seriously bothered by this?
R.I.P. Leonard Nimoy
Mine Trap Supporter
They aren't fully "human." They aren't really "civilized." They are not really "sentient" like us... so all of it is right.
So many convenient justifications. What would Picard say?
Why does this argument keep coming up? Give it a rest already. Cryptic is in no way condoning slavery through their game design.
Whatever is being done to the Undine ships likewise does not sit well with me.
It's a ship, that's grown.... has no feelings has nothing, the Undine just build ships out of meat just like the Federation make ships out of metal....Is the Voyager Alive, or sentient becasue it has a Bio-neural circuit, or is Voyager alive if Starfleet made Voyager completely out of Bio matter? it's alive like a virus is alive, but not sentient like a cow.
Our notions of "sentience" are biased by our perceptions of who and what counts. There must be an objective standard, given our history of classifying sentient things into non-sentient categories, in order to provide convenient justifications for slavery.
I like that it's a hot button issue, even for a shootemup mmo.
If I grew a giant cucumber, and carved it into a floating boat, will it scream
it's not like the Undine took Cows, cut their heads off, carved them out and said here is a boat.
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/princeshadowcat/media/StenNo.png.html
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
LOL
If I ever get my hands on an Undine ship and decide to fly it, I will name it the USS Screaming Cucumber.
Mine Trap Supporter
They also kept saying something about "making crop circles like in signs." Not sure what they meant.
*imagines Undine ship calling out 'Help, help, I'm being repressed!' ala Monty Python*
No I do't believe they are. They're made of organic matter, but that's about it. There are is no real neural activity at all. That's why they need the crew, the crew is the neural activity.
Nope, becauase it's not so.
They probably "capture" them during raids on the Undine ship yards and somehow "reprogram" them to follow other races orders. At this point it goes from silly to the point of jumping the shark in it's idiocy, but there you go.
No more then your average biogel pack or the cloned heart sitting in a vat somewhere. It's flesh, but no neural activity.
wait, so you're okay with flying a ship specifically designed to be worked by Undine psi powers, brought in from a different dimension, with no way to feed it or the shipyards to fix it when it gets really beat up. You're okay with being a Federation officer that has done more pre-emptive killing of all kinds of sentient beings, who has slaughter millions from all the ships we've destoryed, but are suddenly worried about killing larval ships?