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Living Ships=Slavery?

omegaphallicomegaphallic Member Posts: 101 Arc User
Unlike others on the forums I like the idea of playable undine ships, having living ships.

And your explaination that refitting them meant requiring crews and stuff is cool, although more details on how this was done would be cool, as well as how one mixing mechanical and biotech on that level.

But from the description of them, I'm wondering are they sentient like Tin Man?

And if so does this count as Slavery?

Or does the federation, Empire, and Republic grow they're own reprogramed verison loyal to them?

What sort of rights do these ships have as living beings?

And while I'm at it isn't wrong to kill the laval ships, isn't that like killing Childern?

And the ships are made from the same genetic material as the Undine, do that mean the ships are not just usef by that race, but members of it? Are captains flying inside of the Undine?

And if so do those ships have 5 different genders like the tripedal Undine?

Regular Undine ships have a single pilot that commands the ship psionically, that suggests a direct link between the pilots brain and the ships brain, which means that ship has a brain to be psionically effected. Do refiting these ships so a psionic link is unneeded mean the ships brain is labodimized and replaced with a conventional computer core? Or is this a purely software problem aka training the ship to interact with more conventional technology?

To fuse mechanical technology to the ship, like deflectors and various warpcore, does one use borg technology? If not how is the cyborgification of the living ship achieved? Voth technology?


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Post edited by omegaphallic on
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Comments

  • neoakiraiineoakiraii Member Posts: 7,468 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Think of it as if the Enterprise was not made out of metal, but meat.
    GwaoHAD.png
  • lan451lan451 Member Posts: 3,386 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I don't believe the ships are sentient, so I don't think it counts as slavery.
    JWZrsUV.jpg
    Mine Trap Supporter
  • omegaphallicomegaphallic Member Posts: 101 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    neoakiraii wrote: »
    Think of it as if the Enterprise was not made out of metal, but meat.

    Honestly that answers none of my questions at all.
  • genrldestructiongenrldestruction Member Posts: 195 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    The ships are not sentient. They are just comprised of organic material. The larval ships, likewise, are not sentient/sapient/intelligent. They are more like bio-neural gel packs than, say, a dog.

    As far as the rest, I think playable Undine ships makes absolutely no sense from a lore standpoint. Building a control interface for the ship would be, I think, problematic to say the least.
  • omegaphallicomegaphallic Member Posts: 101 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    lan451 wrote: »
    I don't believe the ships are sentient, so I don't think it counts as slavery.

    So thier more like high functioning animals, I guess if it was sentient why would you need a pilot in the first place.

    Still there is the issue of cruelity to animals.
  • galanis2814galanis2814 Member Posts: 159 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    They seem to be more like plants than animals, grown en masse in large "fields" to enter service when they are "ripe". So no, I don't think there's any ethical problem with it.
  • omegaphallicomegaphallic Member Posts: 101 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    The ships are not sentient. They are just comprised of organic material. The larval ships, likewise, are not sentient/sapient/intelligent. They are more like bio-neural gel packs than, say, a dog.

    As far as the rest, I think playable Undine ships makes absolutely no sense from a lore standpoint. Building a control interface for the ship would be, I think, problematic to say the least.

    That's where cybernetic technology comes in, which could have been obtained from the Borg and Voth amoung other sources.
  • phoeniciusphoenicius Member Posts: 762 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    So thier more like high functioning animals, I guess if it was sentient why would you need a pilot in the first place.

    Still there is the issue of cruelity to animals.

    i don't think the ship is capable of feeling pain, or even an animal at all, remember the undine universe is different from ours, "organic" material is pretty much the same as metal to them.

    are you seriously bothered by this?
  • peetapipmacpeetapipmac Member Posts: 2,131 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I think of it as riding a horse but on a much larger scale.
    It's not my fault if you feel trolled by my Disco ball... Sorry'boutit.



    R.I.P. Leonard Nimoy
  • reginamala78reginamala78 Member Posts: 4,593 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Given that its probably something closer to genetically-engineered coral, I doubt its feeling oppressed.
  • alexmakepeacealexmakepeace Member Posts: 10,633 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I think of it as riding a horse but on a much larger scale.
    More like riding a slime mold.
  • lan451lan451 Member Posts: 3,386 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Now that I think of it though, it would probably make more sense if they were sentient. Then all the playable Undine ships floating around would be defectors escaping from their cruel Undine overlords. Huh, that's not bad.
    JWZrsUV.jpg
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  • alexmakepeacealexmakepeace Member Posts: 10,633 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    lan451 wrote: »
    Now that I think of it though, it would probably make more sense if they were sentient. Then all the playable Undine ships floating around would be defectors escaping from their cruel Undine overlords. Huh, that's not bad.
    I demand a foundry mission!
  • kirksplatkirksplat Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    The history of justifications for slavery are full of the type of qualifications in this thread.

    They aren't fully "human." They aren't really "civilized." They are not really "sentient" like us... so all of it is right.

    So many convenient justifications. What would Picard say?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • szerontzurszerontzur Member Posts: 2,724 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I like to think of it more as growing a tree-ship.. but with flesh. It's "alive", but not in the same sense.
  • f9thaceshighf9thaceshigh Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Oh, sure, the BOFFs? Slaves. the DOFFs? Slaves. the Horta pets? Slaves. Exocomp drones? Slaves. Holograms? Slaves. Redshirts? Slaves. Androids? Slaves. 8472 bioships? Slaves.

    Why does this argument keep coming up? Give it a rest already. Cryptic is in no way condoning slavery through their game design.
  • catoblepasbetacatoblepasbeta Member Posts: 1,532 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Didn't they have an episode or two on Trek that dealt with the ethics on treating bio-ships? It's been a while since I have watched the episode with the 'Tin Man', but I thought it was pretty horrible to see the Federation using disabled bioships for weapons testing.

    Whatever is being done to the Undine ships likewise does not sit well with me.
  • admiralkristovadmiralkristov Member Posts: 325 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Well I hope I win an Oscar with "12 years a Nicor"
  • doubleogtrigondoubleogtrigon Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    kirksplat wrote: »
    The history of justifications for slavery are full of the type of qualifications in this thread.

    They aren't fully "human." They are really "civilized." They are not really "sentient" like us... so all of it is right.

    So many convenient justifications. What would Picard say?
    Have you checked to make sure you aren't using an OLED monitor? That's a real-world example of organic technology. What's your justification for enslaving these poor innocent diodes??
  • neoakiraiineoakiraii Member Posts: 7,468 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Honestly that answers none of my questions at all.

    It's a ship, that's grown.... has no feelings has nothing, the Undine just build ships out of meat just like the Federation make ships out of metal....Is the Voyager Alive, or sentient becasue it has a Bio-neural circuit, or is Voyager alive if Starfleet made Voyager completely out of Bio matter? it's alive like a virus is alive, but not sentient like a cow.
    GwaoHAD.png
  • catoblepasbetacatoblepasbeta Member Posts: 1,532 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Have you checked to make sure you aren't using an OLED monitor? That's a real-world example of organic technology. What's your justification for enslaving these poor innocent diodes??
    OLED monitors aren't living, last I checked. Nicors are massive, hyperadvanced multicellular creatures, that in this case are apparently getting parts of their brains scooped out so that federation captains can fly them around.
  • doubleogtrigondoubleogtrigon Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    OLED monitors aren't living, last I checked. Nicors are massive, hyperadvanced multicellular creatures, that in this case are apparently getting parts of their brains scooped out so that federation captains can fly them around.
    The person I was replying to (who I quoted, not sure how you missed it) was advancing the argument that non-sentience was no excuse for utilizing biological technology.
  • kirksplatkirksplat Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    The person I was replying to (who I quoted, not sure how you missed it) was advancing the argument that non-sentience was no excuse for utilizing biological technology.

    Our notions of "sentience" are biased by our perceptions of who and what counts. There must be an objective standard, given our history of classifying sentient things into non-sentient categories, in order to provide convenient justifications for slavery.

    I like that it's a hot button issue, even for a shootemup mmo.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • futurepastnowfuturepastnow Member Posts: 3,660 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I think Undine ships are living in the way that, say, a horse is. They're not sentient beings.
  • neoakiraiineoakiraii Member Posts: 7,468 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Also the Undine don't live in our universe, they don't have minerals and metals on planets like we do, they live on things that are like Coral, and like coral things can be grown on them, and that can be their version of mining.


    If I grew a giant cucumber, and carved it into a floating boat, will it scream


    it's not like the Undine took Cows, cut their heads off, carved them out and said here is a boat.
    GwaoHAD.png
  • nightkennightken Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    for anyone who is concerned about this let me make clear


    http://smg.photobucket.com/user/princeshadowcat/media/StenNo.png.html

    if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
  • lan451lan451 Member Posts: 3,386 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    neoakiraii wrote: »
    Also the Undine don't live in our universe, they don't have minerals and metals on planets like we do, they live on things that are like Coral, and like coral things can be grown on them, and that can be their version of mining.


    If I grew a giant cucumber, and carved it into a floating boat, will it scream


    it's not like the Undine took Cows, cut their heads off, carved them out and said here is a boat.

    LOL

    If I ever get my hands on an Undine ship and decide to fly it, I will name it the USS Screaming Cucumber.
    JWZrsUV.jpg
    Mine Trap Supporter
  • alexmakepeacealexmakepeace Member Posts: 10,633 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    neoakiraii wrote: »
    it's not like the Undine took Cows, cut their heads off, carved them out and said here is a boat.
    Where have you been all day? I beamed down to a farm Earth for after-action cleanup following the ESD attack and found a pack of undine staggering around, decapitating cows and yelling "HERE IS A BOAT!!!" at each other while laughing uproariously. They were clutching jugs of floor cleaner.

    They also kept saying something about "making crop circles like in signs." Not sure what they meant.
  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Given that its probably something closer to genetically-engineered coral, I doubt its feeling oppressed.

    *imagines Undine ship calling out 'Help, help, I'm being repressed!' ala Monty Python*
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • ladymyajhaladymyajha Member Posts: 1,478 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    But from the description of them, I'm wondering are they sentient like Tin Man?

    No I do't believe they are. They're made of organic matter, but that's about it. There are is no real neural activity at all. That's why they need the crew, the crew is the neural activity.
    And if so does this count as Slavery?

    Nope, becauase it's not so.
    Or does the federation, Empire, and Republic grow they're own reprogramed verison loyal to them?

    They probably "capture" them during raids on the Undine ship yards and somehow "reprogram" them to follow other races orders. At this point it goes from silly to the point of jumping the shark in it's idiocy, but there you go.
    What sort of rights do these ships have as living beings?
    No more then your average biogel pack or the cloned heart sitting in a vat somewhere. It's flesh, but no neural activity.
    And while I'm at it isn't wrong to kill the laval ships, isn't that like killing Childern?
    wait, so you're okay with flying a ship specifically designed to be worked by Undine psi powers, brought in from a different dimension, with no way to feed it or the shipyards to fix it when it gets really beat up. You're okay with being a Federation officer that has done more pre-emptive killing of all kinds of sentient beings, who has slaughter millions from all the ships we've destoryed, but are suddenly worried about killing larval ships?
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