To expand on what centersolace said, the Cardassians seem like humans because we spent so much time with them that the writers were forced to branch out from their usual Planet of Hats approach and flesh out the culture to where they were a widely varied people.
If they have a hat at all, it's probably patriotism and public service (for varying definitions thereof).
Well that confirms it. Cardassians are Space Texans.
Why? Why do people have such an infatuation with these guys? Except for a very few exceptions like Gul Dukat (who with his mannerisms, speech style, and personal values, was completely indistinguishable from a human. 'sides head ridges.) they aren't even as unique as pakleds.
Argghh, I can't believe I'm gonna say this, but Garek was also unique, despite being a bad Tailor....now i must shower.
We spend to much money on gel to wear hats.
Also Cardassian Female hair are the most unique hair styles in all of trek.
Argghh, I can't believe I'm gonna say this, but Garek was also unique, despite being a bad Tailor....now i must shower.
Actually, the sad part is, he's a very good tailor.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I think Kazon would make great STO enemies. They are smelly and have obnoxious attitudes, so it's easy to see how they would be natural targets. Furthermore, they kinda suck, so when we singlehandedly explode them like popcorn, it fits canon.
I'm always for more species in STO, including the Kazon.
The Ocampa aren't an evolutionary dead-end. In the VOY novels, their civilization was healed by the evolved Kes in the "Fusion" trilogy.
I wonder whether we're going to get playable Aenar or Benzite bridge officers, though.
Books are not canon.
In canon the ocampa can only have one child once in their lifetime. Not because of sickness but because that's how they for some reason are. And that is an evolutionary dead end.... Kind of illogical that they came so far in the first place.
The Ocampa aren't an evolutionary dead-end. In the VOY novels, their civilization was healed by the evolved Kes in the "Fusion" trilogy.
A species that can only create a single offspring once in its entire life is definitely an evolutionary dead end, since it is doomed for EXTINCTION, as each generation will have maybe anything from as many females as the previous generation, to maybe twice that many, but certainly no more, since an Ocampan female only has two nipples, which sets a clear upper limit on the standard brood size (2), and predicts a more typical brood size of 1.
Why? Why do people have such an infatuation with these guys? Except for a very few exceptions like Gul Dukat (who with his mannerisms, speech style, and personal values, was completely indistinguishable from a human. 'sides head ridges.) they aren't even as unique as pakleds.
What are you talking about? Cardassians as species are very deep and complex, DS9 only barely scratched the surface to show a little of their potential to us.
They are also one of the big 4 empires/factions of the Alpha/Beta Quadrants if you observe the territories and influence they hold.
There are also a lot of potential stories to be extracted from the Cardassians, from the evolution of their society and government, through the resurrection of their religious beliefs after DS9 right to the behavior and views of complex individuals like Garak, Dukat, Natima Lang or Tekeny Ghemor.
If there ever is new/next f(r)action, it has to be the Cardassian one.
The whole 'evolutionary dead end' thing, in relation to the Ocampa, is extremely narrow-minded.
For one, we KNOW - from canon - that they were capable of living to at least twenty years old. Tanis (from the episode 'Cold Fire') was fourteen, and his father was said to have lived to be twenty. Granted, the Suspiria Ocampa were a lot less compassionate than their homeworld-based relatives, but nonetheless - this was evidence that they could live longer. Said group of Ocampa had also developed mental abilities.
But that fact notwithstand, isn't the idea of writing stories (or playing them out where this game is concerned) imagination? Kes 'evolved. There is no reason to assume that other Ocamapa wouldn't do the same. The caretaker was holding them back - perhaps with their newly developing mental abilities, their lifespans would increase.
Eitherway, they are NOT as dead-ended as some are assuming. And let us not forget, we already have one in-game, namely Lieutenant Linnea (http://sto.gamepedia.com/Linnea
Another serious case of missing the point.
It's not the short live expectation that makes them a evolutionary dead end. Day flys live a day and aren't an evolutionary dead end.
It's the fact that they can only have one child once in their lifetime.
That means, even under the ideal conditions, that every ocampa finds a mate, the no ocampa dies a childbirth or before they can have that child.... Their population is cut in a half with every single generation.
That's the evolutionary dead end. Not the short lifetime.
It's not the short live expectation that makes them a evolutionary dead end. Day flys live a day and aren't an evolutionary dead end.
It's the fact that they can only have one child once in their lifetime.
That means, even under the ideal conditions, that every ocampa finds a mate, the no ocampa dies a childbirth or before they can have that child.... Their population is cut in a half with every single generation.
That's the evolutionary dead end. Not the short lifetime.
Alleged evolutionary dead ends aside, can we at least agree on Kes being an evolutionary dead end? :P Scary broad, that actresss was.
Okay - where exactly was it explictly stated that they can only have one child? I don't remember it.
And it could well be the case that triplet births are commonplace on Ocampa.
I don't remember the exact title. "The swarm" may be?
It was some season 1 episode.
Kes was influenced by the anomaly of the week to get into that "pairing phase" and it was said that ocampa only have that once in a live and they have to get that child in that exact phase... So Kes became urgent to reproduce with Neelix and he had to deal with the (terrible) idea of becoming a father.
Ultimately it was all a fake, Kes only had the symptoms of that once in a lifetime ocampa thing influenced by that swarm or whatever it was that week and would have her only child later.
Horrible episode... IMO at least as bad as threshold. But that's where it was said. Canon is canon , we can't be picky. The dump plot wouldn't have worked without that completely stupid "one child a lifetime" thing, because kess need to get f*** wouldn't have been urgent enough...
I mean if the writers would have taken about 20 seconds to think about it they would have seen that this can't work this way.
If they wanted the ocampa to reproduce only once a lifetime the could have made it that they... Don't know...key eggs.. Get 50 or 100 babys... Like spiders or something, would have stressed kess beeing an alien after all.... But they explicitly said "1 baby once a lifetime" and nobody objected. That's actually all you need to know about voyager writing.
And people complain in sto about non-existence story gaps like the undine needing the iconian gates...
Jennifer Lien? I actually really liked her, and thought she was pretty darn hot in that catsuit, with her hair down, in 'Scorpion'
I dunno; I always thought there was something very off, scary even, about her personality. Probably indeed just reeled in for her supposed looks; but in real life I'd probably stay the hell away from her.
As yes, I know it's not canon and blah blah - but as he says, they couldn't have survived for as long as they did if there wasn't SOMETHING else going on.
Beside the non canon factor:
Even if the caretaker somehow influenced that to keep the race not dying out... Caretaker is gone for almost 50 years now... That's what in ocampa time? 15? 20? Generations? Even by that logic, they are gone now.
Beside the non canon factor:
Even if the caretaker somehow influenced that to keep the race not dying out... Caretaker is gone for almost 50 years now... That's what in ocampa time? 15? 20? Generations? Even by that logic, they are gone now.
That "logic" also included the possibility that twin and triplet births were common, and that is indepedent of the Caretaker.
Does the episode establish that the Ocampa reproduction system always worked like that? (Well, realistically, it can't be, because you can not get to a population of any size if it always worked like that). So it could be that the Caretaker itself was the very reason Ocampa reproduced so poorly. Possibly because his arrival devestated the planet and a large population would not be able to survive, and lead to strive and conflict between the Ocampa that could make the situation worse.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
That "logic" also included the possibility that twin and triplet births were common, and that is indepedent of the Caretaker.
Does the episode establish that the Ocampa reproduction system always worked like that? (Well, realistically, it can't be, because you can not get to a population of any size if it always worked like that). So it could be that the Caretaker itself was the very reason Ocampa reproduced so poorly. Possibly because his arrival devestated the planet and a large population would not be able to survive, and lead to strive and conflict between the Ocampa that could make the situation worse.
The episode clearly states that the ocampa reproduction works that way. Even if it used to work differently and they have been genetically changed, from that point on it maintains that way.
And the episode contradicts that twin and triplet birth idea. The doctor explains that this gross sack grows at kess neck for one child.
Also they always talk about if that one child should be a boy or girl, they clearly are not expecting twins or triplets in any way.
Also we know about exactly 2 ocampa birthes: kess own one, seen when she was traveling back in time. She was not a twin or triplet.
Kess daughter in the same episode was not a twin or triplet.
Nothing supports that theory. Beside the logic that.,, ocampa reproduction can't work in the established way, obviously.
And even IF it were common, it would only slow the extinction down. For that to work all ocampa have to be perfectly healthy. And have a perfectly drilled society.
Because in reality not every child survives and not not everybody reproduces. Children get born sick, people have accidents. People murder other people ect ect ect. That's how things are. So even if 2/3 of the birthes are triple or twins,,, it's not enough.
Oh I forgot,,, what about TRIBBLE people? Get TRIBBLE ocampa ***** if the don't want to reproduce? Or are there none?
VOY at its core is the very antithesis of Trek. Don't believe me? Look at the Voth battle zone. With ****ING DINOSAURS
You're right. I want a return to the REAL Star Trek. Punching Olympian Gods, sneaking around on the Planet of TRIBBLE and making deals with Planet of Gangsters. Talking with President Abraham Lincoln. Looking at pretty flowers with their poison-tipped Shotgun Pollen and dealing with suicidal pregnant tribeswomen.
Books are not canon.
In canon the ocampa can only have one child once in their lifetime. Not because of sickness but because that's how they for some reason are. And that is an evolutionary dead end.... Kind of illogical that they came so far in the first place.
While books are not considered absolute canon, STO does draw material from them.
For example, the official canon regarding Data is that he has been destroyed in Star Trek: Nemesis. Since there has been no other movies released with the TNG crew, Data is officially dead.
However, there was a book released (don't know the title, I don't read Star Trek novels) where Geordi La Forge restored Data's matrix in B4's body. In STO's lore he became captain of the Enterprise-E when Jean Luc Picard resigned his Starfleet commission and became an ambassador to Vulcan.
You're right. I want a return to the REAL Star Trek. Punching Olympian Gods, sneaking around on the Planet of TRIBBLE and making deals with Planet of Gangsters. Talking with President Abraham Lincoln. Looking at pretty flowers with their poison-tipped Shotgun Pollen and dealing with suicidal pregnant tribeswomen.
All of which were given explanations that made sense in-universe. The explanation given for the ****ing dinosaurs with lasers on their heads (pack animals they brought along from home when they fled the planet in spaceships to avoid extinction? seriously?) is completely and utterly illogical. They'd be far more likely to construct armored vehicles, in which we'd probably be complaining that STO was turning into Call of Duty.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
You're right. I want a return to the REAL Star Trek. Punching Olympian Gods, sneaking around on the Planet of TRIBBLE and making deals with Planet of Gangsters. Talking with President Abraham Lincoln. Looking at pretty flowers with their poison-tipped Shotgun Pollen and dealing with suicidal pregnant tribeswomen.
actually that might be cool ya know shake it up a little star trek always had its comedy aspect
i never relay liked the kazon. it seamed that they were trying too hard to be klingons instead of creating something new.
also the first star trek show with a female captain and the first race is a male dominated gang style race that looks down on women?with the worst of them constantly a thorn in voyagers side? sorry that screams feminist TRIBBLE type writing to me
look it up on memory alpha if you don't believe me
i never relay liked the kazon. it seamed that they were trying too hard to be klingons instead of creating something new.
also the first star trek show with a female captain and the first race is a male dominated gang style race that looks down on women?with the worst of them constantly a thorn in voyagers side? sorry that screams feminist TRIBBLE type writing to me
look it up on memory alpha if you don't believe me
You're totally getting this mixed up. The HIROGEN were the TRIBBLE in Voyager!
Talaxians, Ocampa and Kazon should be in the game as minor faction mobs over such races as the Scoodians, Crimto, etc.
No, they shouldn't. Talarians and so forth maybe, because they're actually on the correct side of the galaxy.
This isn't the Star Wars galaxy where FTL is fast enough to get you across the galaxy inside of a week, and IIRC the AQ/BQ superpowers are actually faster than almost everyone else (except the Dominion, who are comparable).
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Personally, I hated the Kazon. "Ghetto Klingons" is what I called them, because that's all they were. Gangbanger styled wannabe Klingons. They didn't have a culture apart from jacking their rides from someone else and being as 'Crips vs Bloods' as they can get.
I wouldn't mind a return to the Planet of Gangsters myself. Have to fight a few gangsters, survive a drive-by, talk with some of them and strike a deal or two. Then get a gangster costume, a Full Auto Rifle that does nothing but Kinetic damage as a mission reward, maybe even a Compression Pistol in the same vein. Then we'd have our Tommy Gun and M1911a1.
You could even stretch out the planet/missions to be a full story arc. Maybe even get a gangster to join your crew.
Honestly, I wouldn't mind the Kazon as a playable race. There's a lot of potential for Cryptic to actually do the race some good, over how they were presented in Voyager. And a lot of time has passed since Voyager as well, so there's a good chance something might've changed with their culture.
On the topic of Hirogen as a playable race, that's probably never going to happen now (as much as I'd like it to happen), considering their ships have been stuffed into a Lockbox, which is more-or-less a death knell for any species' chance of becoming playable and/or a playable faction.
I personally think the Kazon should be given a chance. If anything, it'll give the KDF access to some of their awesome ships. Always did like their Predator-class Carriers.
"[GARBLED ELECTRONIC NOISES]"
- Thot Gar - Commanding Officer of the Braaktak Kaan
You're right. I want a return to the REAL Star Trek. Punching Olympian Gods, sneaking around on the Planet of TRIBBLE and making deals with Planet of Gangsters. Talking with President Abraham Lincoln. Looking at pretty flowers with their poison-tipped Shotgun Pollen and dealing with suicidal pregnant tribeswomen.
I think the issue is just that TOS happened in the damned 60's. Things were so different and far out there compared to today. The third season revolved largely around the Vietnam War, the Civil Rights Movement and whatnot. That being said, they had to stretch things in the style of 60's scifi to create morality plays that would actually be aired on TV. Given that the late 60's was when LSD was at its peak, it kinda makes sense that a lot of it was...well, out there. If you can't look past how dated it is, you've clearly missed to point. I mean, look at early TNG. HOW 80'S WAS IT?? If you left it at face value it would have no meaning.
By the, way, Sisko decked Q. Not a fake Olympian, but close enough.
My Old Blog about things that could and should have been added when I wrote it. Not sure what I want to do with it now. I'll just keep it available now that most of it is outdated.
I think the issue is just that TOS happened in the damned 60's. Things were so different and far out there compared to today. The third season revolved largely around the Vietnam War, the Civil Rights Movement and whatnot. That being said, they had to stretch things in the style of 60's scifi to create morality plays that would actually be aired on TV. Given that the late 60's was when LSD was at its peak, it kinda makes sense that a lot of it was...well, out there. If you can't look past how dated it is, you've clearly missed to point. I mean, look at early TNG. HOW 80'S WAS IT?? If you left it at face value it would have no meaning.
By the, way, Sisko decked Q. Not a fake Olympian, but close enough.
Who's to say Apollo was fake?
And I know it was the 60's. But the thing is, a lot of people (including friends outside this forum) hold TOS era like it was some holy grail of story telling and The Future. One guy I know even told me that everything after TOS was dreck effects and writing fit only for a landfill because nothing, not a single thing was good from TNG, DS9, Voy, Ent or ANY of the movies.
And I've seen people on these forums (as well as in-game) talk as if TOS was the be-all and end-all of Trek, because X was ruined by Y show, talking as if TOS was perfect in every way and in no way had any outrageous themes or silly ideas.
Comments
Well that confirms it. Cardassians are Space Texans.
Argghh, I can't believe I'm gonna say this, but Garek was also unique, despite being a bad Tailor....now i must shower.
We spend to much money on gel to wear hats.
Also Cardassian Female hair are the most unique hair styles in all of trek.
Actually, the sad part is, he's a very good tailor.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
You shall be an excellent member of the KDF!
The Ocampa aren't an evolutionary dead-end. In the VOY novels, their civilization was healed by the evolved Kes in the "Fusion" trilogy.
I wonder whether we're going to get playable Aenar or Benzite bridge officers, though.
Books are not canon.
In canon the ocampa can only have one child once in their lifetime. Not because of sickness but because that's how they for some reason are. And that is an evolutionary dead end.... Kind of illogical that they came so far in the first place.
And playable benzite bridge officers?
We have benzite captains if that's what you mean.
What are you talking about? Cardassians as species are very deep and complex, DS9 only barely scratched the surface to show a little of their potential to us.
They are also one of the big 4 empires/factions of the Alpha/Beta Quadrants if you observe the territories and influence they hold.
There are also a lot of potential stories to be extracted from the Cardassians, from the evolution of their society and government, through the resurrection of their religious beliefs after DS9 right to the behavior and views of complex individuals like Garak, Dukat, Natima Lang or Tekeny Ghemor.
If there ever is new/next f(r)action, it has to be the Cardassian one.
Another serious case of missing the point.
It's not the short live expectation that makes them a evolutionary dead end. Day flys live a day and aren't an evolutionary dead end.
It's the fact that they can only have one child once in their lifetime.
That means, even under the ideal conditions, that every ocampa finds a mate, the no ocampa dies a childbirth or before they can have that child.... Their population is cut in a half with every single generation.
That's the evolutionary dead end. Not the short lifetime.
Alleged evolutionary dead ends aside, can we at least agree on Kes being an evolutionary dead end? :P Scary broad, that actresss was.
I don't remember the exact title. "The swarm" may be?
It was some season 1 episode.
Kes was influenced by the anomaly of the week to get into that "pairing phase" and it was said that ocampa only have that once in a live and they have to get that child in that exact phase... So Kes became urgent to reproduce with Neelix and he had to deal with the (terrible) idea of becoming a father.
Ultimately it was all a fake, Kes only had the symptoms of that once in a lifetime ocampa thing influenced by that swarm or whatever it was that week and would have her only child later.
Horrible episode... IMO at least as bad as threshold. But that's where it was said. Canon is canon , we can't be picky. The dump plot wouldn't have worked without that completely stupid "one child a lifetime" thing, because kess need to get f*** wouldn't have been urgent enough...
I mean if the writers would have taken about 20 seconds to think about it they would have seen that this can't work this way.
If they wanted the ocampa to reproduce only once a lifetime the could have made it that they... Don't know...key eggs.. Get 50 or 100 babys... Like spiders or something, would have stressed kess beeing an alien after all.... But they explicitly said "1 baby once a lifetime" and nobody objected. That's actually all you need to know about voyager writing.
And people complain in sto about non-existence story gaps like the undine needing the iconian gates...
I dunno; I always thought there was something very off, scary even, about her personality. Probably indeed just reeled in for her supposed looks; but in real life I'd probably stay the hell away from her.
Beside the non canon factor:
Even if the caretaker somehow influenced that to keep the race not dying out... Caretaker is gone for almost 50 years now... That's what in ocampa time? 15? 20? Generations? Even by that logic, they are gone now.
That "logic" also included the possibility that twin and triplet births were common, and that is indepedent of the Caretaker.
Does the episode establish that the Ocampa reproduction system always worked like that? (Well, realistically, it can't be, because you can not get to a population of any size if it always worked like that). So it could be that the Caretaker itself was the very reason Ocampa reproduced so poorly. Possibly because his arrival devestated the planet and a large population would not be able to survive, and lead to strive and conflict between the Ocampa that could make the situation worse.
The episode clearly states that the ocampa reproduction works that way. Even if it used to work differently and they have been genetically changed, from that point on it maintains that way.
And the episode contradicts that twin and triplet birth idea. The doctor explains that this gross sack grows at kess neck for one child.
Also they always talk about if that one child should be a boy or girl, they clearly are not expecting twins or triplets in any way.
Also we know about exactly 2 ocampa birthes: kess own one, seen when she was traveling back in time. She was not a twin or triplet.
Kess daughter in the same episode was not a twin or triplet.
Nothing supports that theory. Beside the logic that.,, ocampa reproduction can't work in the established way, obviously.
And even IF it were common, it would only slow the extinction down. For that to work all ocampa have to be perfectly healthy. And have a perfectly drilled society.
Because in reality not every child survives and not not everybody reproduces. Children get born sick, people have accidents. People murder other people ect ect ect. That's how things are. So even if 2/3 of the birthes are triple or twins,,, it's not enough.
Oh I forgot,,, what about TRIBBLE people? Get TRIBBLE ocampa ***** if the don't want to reproduce? Or are there none?
You're right. I want a return to the REAL Star Trek. Punching Olympian Gods, sneaking around on the Planet of TRIBBLE and making deals with Planet of Gangsters. Talking with President Abraham Lincoln. Looking at pretty flowers with their poison-tipped Shotgun Pollen and dealing with suicidal pregnant tribeswomen.
While books are not considered absolute canon, STO does draw material from them.
For example, the official canon regarding Data is that he has been destroyed in Star Trek: Nemesis. Since there has been no other movies released with the TNG crew, Data is officially dead.
However, there was a book released (don't know the title, I don't read Star Trek novels) where Geordi La Forge restored Data's matrix in B4's body. In STO's lore he became captain of the Enterprise-E when Jean Luc Picard resigned his Starfleet commission and became an ambassador to Vulcan.
All of which were given explanations that made sense in-universe. The explanation given for the ****ing dinosaurs with lasers on their heads (pack animals they brought along from home when they fled the planet in spaceships to avoid extinction? seriously?) is completely and utterly illogical. They'd be far more likely to construct armored vehicles, in which we'd probably be complaining that STO was turning into Call of Duty.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
actually that might be cool ya know shake it up a little star trek always had its comedy aspect
also the first star trek show with a female captain and the first race is a male dominated gang style race that looks down on women?with the worst of them constantly a thorn in voyagers side? sorry that screams feminist TRIBBLE type writing to me
look it up on memory alpha if you don't believe me
You're totally getting this mixed up. The HIROGEN were the TRIBBLE in Voyager!
No, they shouldn't. Talarians and so forth maybe, because they're actually on the correct side of the galaxy.
This isn't the Star Wars galaxy where FTL is fast enough to get you across the galaxy inside of a week, and IIRC the AQ/BQ superpowers are actually faster than almost everyone else (except the Dominion, who are comparable).
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I wouldn't mind a return to the Planet of Gangsters myself. Have to fight a few gangsters, survive a drive-by, talk with some of them and strike a deal or two. Then get a gangster costume, a Full Auto Rifle that does nothing but Kinetic damage as a mission reward, maybe even a Compression Pistol in the same vein. Then we'd have our Tommy Gun and M1911a1.
You could even stretch out the planet/missions to be a full story arc. Maybe even get a gangster to join your crew.
On the topic of Hirogen as a playable race, that's probably never going to happen now (as much as I'd like it to happen), considering their ships have been stuffed into a Lockbox, which is more-or-less a death knell for any species' chance of becoming playable and/or a playable faction.
I personally think the Kazon should be given a chance. If anything, it'll give the KDF access to some of their awesome ships. Always did like their Predator-class Carriers.
- Thot Gar - Commanding Officer of the Braaktak Kaan
I think the issue is just that TOS happened in the damned 60's. Things were so different and far out there compared to today. The third season revolved largely around the Vietnam War, the Civil Rights Movement and whatnot. That being said, they had to stretch things in the style of 60's scifi to create morality plays that would actually be aired on TV. Given that the late 60's was when LSD was at its peak, it kinda makes sense that a lot of it was...well, out there. If you can't look past how dated it is, you've clearly missed to point. I mean, look at early TNG. HOW 80'S WAS IT?? If you left it at face value it would have no meaning.
By the, way, Sisko decked Q. Not a fake Olympian, but close enough.
Who's to say Apollo was fake?
And I know it was the 60's. But the thing is, a lot of people (including friends outside this forum) hold TOS era like it was some holy grail of story telling and The Future. One guy I know even told me that everything after TOS was dreck effects and writing fit only for a landfill because nothing, not a single thing was good from TNG, DS9, Voy, Ent or ANY of the movies.
And I've seen people on these forums (as well as in-game) talk as if TOS was the be-all and end-all of Trek, because X was ruined by Y show, talking as if TOS was perfect in every way and in no way had any outrageous themes or silly ideas.