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Stealth Issues



  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    ilhansk wrote: »
    Well, first of all, I consider myself more of a "generalist", depending on my mood I either play healer, escort, or Sci. I am also playing both vaper and snooper for more then a year now. Prior to cast judgement, IMO it is important to look at a problem from all possible angles. To tackle balance issues just from a narrow perspective of playing cloaked ships would be unwise.

    That's the thing though. I don't. If anything, I've favored the non-cloaking side. Even now, I've got 2x EBC, 2x standard cloak, and 4x no cloak. It's only 50-50 like that because of the reroll that I did at the end of last year. Prior to that...Fleet T'varo, JHEC, K't'inga Retro, Kamarag Retro, Marauder, Chel Grett, Nebula Retro, Heavy Retro, and Risian were the nine boats my guys flew. Single EBC and 2x standard cloak...6x no cloak.

    I only picked up the B'rel recently (like in the past couple of weeks and only because when I did the rerolls I wanted to do one KDF toon for each of the ship types listed on STOwiki with their respective T5 zen boat...so you've got:

    Raider - B'rel
    Raptor - no T5 Zen boat, so just the M.Qin
    Battle Cruiser - Mogh
    Destroyer - Guramba
    Support Vessel - Varanus
    Flight-Deck Cruiser - Marauder
    Carrier - Kar'Fi

    ...for the boats that I'm flying outside of Willard.)

    And with Willard, I joke that if there's ever a message saying "X was killed by Willard the Rat" that it was likely a mistake...a kill steal - where I might have plinked the very last sliver of health.

    Willard's support and I'm mainly spending my time on him watching everything that is going on around him - toss some debuffs here, toss some buffs/heals there, and otherwise just watching what everybody's doing with their buff cycles - how they're maneuvering - and generally just trying to pay attention to everything that's going on. It helps that he generally doesn't have the typical pressure of feeling the need to kill something or worrying that often about anybody trying to kill him. He's just that little helping hand here one way or another.
    ilhansk wrote: »
    Some of the things you mentioned in your initial post are bugs, and they should get fixed (like Pet behaviour). However some are not. I can understand your point though, you want the game to work more logical and all ;) Actual gameplay however always should take precedence.

    Even with the logical things, they just need logical narrative. Like what I said about the mines - if they add the narrative description for the mines that they're working off of gas sensors or the like, then it would make sense that they could lock on to a target at a certain range and even be able to follow them to a point.

    The problem with gameplay taking precedence is where the gameplay feels off. If something's slapping you in the face as off - it's hard to ignore that. This isn't an old game for the Atari 2600 or the like - it's a MMO. It's not about pushing for all sorts of real world physics - heh, that wouldn't make sense for the franchise which tends to ignore that.

    It's like watching a movie or TV show and something so blatantly stupid happens that you feel like walking away from it. So picture the Fed Rom in the T'varo generating a Tachyon Detection Field...while cloaked? Cryptic is changing Sensor Analysis with S9 so that it can't be used while cloaked - heck, triggering SA while cloaked will decloak you (they went that route rather than greying it out). To me, honestly, that doesn't make sense. SA logically should be possible while cloaked - but things like TDF and even Sensor Scan shouldn't, eh? SA's an analysis of sensor information - it's not boosted sensor scanning which would likely light the ship up, eh?

    It's kind of like with an EBC - there are certain abilities that you can use which cause you to blip and abilities that do not cause you to blip. There's no consistency there...is that a bug or a logic issue?
    ilhansk wrote: »
    In it's current state cloakers and the respective counters are actually pretty well balanced. They are a couple of direct counters availalbe (like PSW, GW, TB, CPB), and also some indirect counters (like VM). I don't really see the need for adding additional counters into the game. The ones that are available work.

    It's the ol' give 'n take thing. If certain things are taken, then certain things should be given. The bug fixes and my logic issues...could easily swing the balance...and since the overall goal is balance, it's why there might be the potential need to add more ways to counter it.
    ilhansk wrote: »
    Successfully countering vapers was never really only about adding points into sensors. Good snoopers employ a mix of measures, including Bridge Officer sci abilities that create a zone where cloak is being denied. In that sense, I consider actual raw cloak detection (via sensors) as a form of zone denial too.

    It's hectic and fun. :D

    ilhansk wrote: »
    A ship that has a stealth detection range of 5km, or a team that relies on a detection range of 10km, will be ripped into pieces in record time by any competent vaper. If that's the countermeasure that one brings into a match, that one might as well remove his shields, it would not make a difference. That's the reason why strictly relying on things like Warp plasma or Gravity Wells is usually not enough. They simply do not create a big enough zone. Taking into account how fast some cloakers are, they is no real difference wether you can spot them at 0.5km or 5km.

    Cloakers pass incredibly close to targets - the typical target can't see them. With the damage fall off for cannons - attackers wanting to land a tractor...it being easier for folks to see out to 5km would help them with dealing with all the Roms flipping their BCs while going to make a getaway or just blipping about. It's the opportunity for that player to attempt to move into a better position, to land some sort of counter, etc, etc, etc...and...it would force your average cloaker to pay more attention and play better themselves.

    With the 10km - that was the midrange...folks that have put some effort into it.


    5km with minor effort
    10k with some effort
    15-20km with major effort

    ...where a team might end up with 1x 15-20km, 2x 10km, and 3x 5km. Perhaps they go 2x 15-20km, etc, etc, etc.

    Of course, my concepts of minor, some, and major probably aren't going to mesh with what others consider...probably kick each up a notch or two.

    What we've got now is folks that don't see the cloakers taking the Cheetos out of the pantry and folks that think they can see a cloaker out to X distance, but it's really Y distance - it's just a limitation of the engine that's letting them see out to X. Grab a T'varo, D'deridex, and a Scimitar all with the same cloak...take note of the different distances they can actually be seen. Even better, just have the cloaker fly around to different areas of the map - just like there are audio deadzones there are visual deadzones...places where you can normally see the folks out to 28-30km but they disappear at 16-18km instead.
    ilhansk wrote: »
    If you are asking to buff Gravity Wells, or to change how they work so it can be more viable against cloakers, well from current meta-game perspective it's not really required, Because sensor points + TDF already fill out that niche. If they buff GW, then I'd be fine with some toning-down of the sensor points approach.

    With GW, I just want them to reduce the performance load from the FX and increase the display of the FX to cover the actual area of effect. As it stands now, you could have five folks drop out a GW where all five will look the same - but all five will decloak targets at different ranges. It's from when they changed how skill points affected it and changed the range on them.
    ilhansk wrote: »
    A couple of days ago, someone posted in another thread that he is able to generate Grav Wells with a range of about 18km or something. That's intriguing, because that might work against cloakers. If you can't cast such a GW, and don't have enough cloak detection via sensors + TDF, you'd be screwed however.

    How many folks are on a team? Is there no teamwork? Sometimes I troll in Ker'rat, and yeah yeah - I know, it's just Ker'rat. But sometimes I just fly around and SNB folks the moment they decloak. Nothing else...just a SNB. It's a case of knowing that somebody's a fat target and that folks are going to come - it's a case of knowing (not always being right, sometimes they're not there - but hey, paranoia doesn't hurt) that there might be somebody that engages first to get some buffs going so somebody else can SNB the juicy target so somebody else can decloak...and they eat the SNB. It's not wasted on on the hounds, it's dropped out on the hunter.

    And with the TDF, though I loathe that both [SciCdr] and 2pc MACO can reduce the CD of it - the only actual change to it that I've asked for is that it not be usable while cloaked in a T'varo. I'm surprised more folks don't run it for the edge it gives. Hell, it's been available to Feds on all boats since Feb 2012. Course, the majority of Feds stuck to FvF and never worried about it - and - well, to be blunt - most don't want to be worried about it. They'd rather there wasn't cloaking in the game at all...so they could just focus on their pew pew builds.
    ilhansk wrote: »
    People who can see cloakers such far away have already sacrificed almost anything else in order to accomplish that. And keep in mind, those are most likely burst numbers, it cannot be kept up 24/7. A cloaker needs to keep its distance, and time its attacks.

    5180 is Sub/Infil/Pirate, Warbird, 125 Aux. It's 5125 for a non-Warbird.

    Sci Vessel with 125 Aux, 64 (3 Sensors & Astrophysicist)...5123 Perception. Useless.

    Add a +2% Rom Deflector...5239 Perception. ~1km on the Warbird & ~2.3km on the non-Warbird.

    Take Sensors to ~99 (98)...5272.75 Perception. ~1.9km on the Warbird & ~3km on the non-Warbird.

    Take Sensors to 169 (9 Sensors, Astrophysicist, & 2x +30 Sensors)...5344 Perception. ~3.3km on the Warbird and ~4.4km on the non-Warbird.

    Add in EPtA1...you're at 6.3/7.4km with what I'd consider passive (EPtA1's always going to be up from being DCE'd along with EPtS1/2). Perhaps it's EPtS1/EPtA2 - you're at 7.3/8.4km. Will likely be minutely better from running Rom Sensors either for [ShH] or [HuH]. It's still only 2x of the 3-5x Sci slots the Sci Vessel will have.

    Pop Sensor Scan with that amount of Sensors (169) and you're at 5680.25 Perception. With EPtA1 in play - you're looking at 13km on the Warbird and 14km on the non-Warbird.

    Cycle that with TDF between two players...while doing other things that will normally be done.
    ilhansk wrote: »
    Cloakers were spoiled in the sense, that they did not have to invest anything at all into stealth, vapers could (and still can to an extend) minmax their spike damage, and not much else, and still get away with it. It made any other form of damage delivery and other playstyles complete obsolete. If someone wants to enjoy a state of perfect cloak, that needs be attached with some form of opportunity cost, like making it more difficult to one-shot opponents, or at least that one-shootting people becomes a team-effort and not a solo-achievement.

    Clone yourself twice, so you can watch them fight.

    Put one in a Fleet B'rel and one in a Fleet Defiant.

    Not much of a fight, eh?

    Fleet Qin vs. Fleet Defiant might be a little closer - Qin giving up some turn and damage for a little more shields and some more hull.

    Qin's only got a standard cloak though. There's no recloaking with that.

    It set the precedent that not much is given up for a standard cloak - since it was limited outside of the opening strike. Which before Embassy BOFFs, was limited to +15% short duration damage.


    Fleet Ha'feh vs. Fleet Defiant...well, Ha'feh gives up 1 turn and 30 inertia...but it's sporting +0.09 shield mod and +1100 base hull. Sure, you'd have to work around 40base instead of 50base power, but you've got shiny Singularity Abilities for that.

    Doesn't follow the precedence of giving up something for the Battle Cloak in the least. One might say that it's looking a lot like a Raptor with a Battle Cloak. Going back to that Qin vs. Defiant match, would change a bit if the Qin had a BC, eh? Not so evenly matched, right?

    Romulans screwed up so many discussions about balance - so many topics...all jacked up because of Romulans, lol. And Cryptic can't touch them - the internet would die from the sheer amount of tears. Folks in the middle of nowhere, never heard of the internet - never seen a computer, would wake up one morning to find everything flooded...the tears would flow like that, eh?

    So what are the odds that Cryptic buffs all the other ships to bring them in line with the Romulans? Yeah...we've seen their planned buffs for the Raiders...meh. We saw what they did with the Galaxy Reboot.

    I may be fond of pointing out the -400 Stealth at 5 pips of Singularity...but that's mainly to point out to folks not to do that, lol. They're giving up 8km at 5 pips. Might be fine in PvE...but that will get folks tagged in PvP. It's one of those things that might have looked good to Cryptic on paper to balance things...but c'mon, it's silly not to burn Singularity before it gets to 5 before trying to cloak or while blipping around cloaked.

    Sure, there have been "incidents" in the past with stealth.

    Embassy BOFFs when first introduced provided a % increase instead of flat increase - this led to some seriously ridiculous Stealth Values. It was nerfed (and there was an outcry over it, lol - folks don't care about balance, they're all buff me, nerf them).

    There was the no-blip B'rel bug that was fixed.

    There was the issue where the BOFFs started stacking again at some point after LoR. There were no notes ever dropped stating it was supposed to stack - was a bug. Folks complained again when it was fixed. Heh, I complained too - mind you - still believe that one from the Captain and one from the BOFF should stack, c'mon - that's +75 Stealth Value, 1.5km. It's not the +7.5km that arose from the stacking.

    Then again, there was also the EPtA Infinite Visiion bug that was introduced and lasted a period of time...

    There have been bugs and oopsies. That's not standard gameplay. Standard gameplay was a Standard Cloak didn't really give anything up - a Battle Cloak did. Until Romulans...meh.

    Should a Standard Cloak give up more? The KDF should have more Destroyers and some Cruisers then, no?

    Should Roms give up for their Battle Cloaks like the KDF do with their BCs? Meh, not going to happen. Should everything be buffed to match what the Roms don't give up? Meh, not going to happen either...

    Roms really screwed the pooch on any balance discussions. Which is kind of funny, cause their cloaks are only +55 Stealth Value (and they do lose Stealth from Singularity)...it's just they've got BCs on Raptors and Battle Cruisers. It's not so much the cloak as the ships having the cloak.
    ilhansk wrote: »
    So any attempt of buffing cloakers needs to keep that in mind.

    But that's the thing - asking for bug fixes and logic checks...while including the potential need for additional counters...isn't about buffing cloakers but is still taking into consideration what the bug fixes and logic checks might result in...thus attempting to keep a balance.
    ilhansk wrote: »
    Here is the thing though: The PvP community already suffered from a prolonged phase where the actual issue was, "What would be the point of anybody not cloaking then?". It was a very lame and unfun meta-game, in addition of being even more unaccessible to casual and newcomers. Pure poison.

    Having it swing either way is going to result in a lack of overall fun...hence wanting things balanced.

    There's a major difference between something being balanced and somebody doing their own thing anyway...and things being out of balance.

    There's far too much "Buff Me, Nerf Them" taking place all over the forums - whether in the PvP forums where players want other players nerfed or even in PvE where players want NPC nerfed. And it's been wearing on me. I mean, there's a thread about torps over in the build section that I'm dying to reply to like I do with almost every torp thread cause they're almost always the same damn thread - ignoring everything that's been said in every other damn torp thread. Then again, when folks will post a new thread ignoring three other threads on the page where they decided to post a new thread (happens all over the forums) - then I guess one really shouldn't expect more...Hell, when folks can't even bother to post threads in the sub forums that exist for such threads...meh, yeah - I'm getting burnt out.

    I guess I see things in the following categories:

    Logic/Consistency Issues
    Needs to L2P
    Knows how to play, but doesn't want to have to change anything so they're going to complain

    With so much of the last two, it's difficult to get the first two (where the second would actually include OP/UP items - consistency and all that)...there's just too much freakin' whining going on.

    edit: Meh, might be best just to give up on PvP...give up on the forums...and oh, I don't know - just actually try to enjoy this game instead or find another game. Course, it's delusional to think that other games don't have their share of problems...
  • scurry5scurry5 Member Posts: 1,554 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Hmm, another random idea......

    The lore justification for SA disabling cloak is the use of active sensors that light your ship up. Even so, don't other ships use active sensors all the time?

    If cloaking is supposed to limit you to passive sensors, it might be reasonable for cloaking to reduce perception. At least this would reduce the advantage of Fed EBC snooping.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,790 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Passive vs Active Sensors and Detection Ranges seems to come straight out of earlier Mechwarrior titles. It is an intersting concept.

    It might be fun to have Cloak lower your own perception ability. Suddenly MES might become a real trouble for your ship, since a cloaked ship has only a relative chance to perceive a MES protected target as an unclocked ship can detect a cloaked vessel. Interesting symmetry of counters.

    Even if MES also affects peception negatively, perhaps - a Federation fleet of ships might have one unMESed observer and multiple MESed ships, so that a Klingon or Romulan battle group under cloak would see only easy prey.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    you couldn't have this or all you would get all day is feds dropping them at the kdf spawn in karat none stop, you feds already have the tdf console do you really need more ????

    How often do you find you've spawned within 20km of another player in Ker'rat? For me, I oft spawn thinking I'm alone - cause there's nobody within 30km.
  • tfomegatfomega Member Posts: 812 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    With the FX covering the distance - they could be tuned at the same time to have less of a hit on performance.

    Did people get out of bed without their brains this morning or something? Seriously...the forums are getting pathetic with all the freaking thoughtless whining.

    Playing devil's advocate for a moment.. an Fx that large may overload some vid cards..and cause lots of lag.. they may be trying to save some CPU cycles.

    On the other hand.. it would be nice if I knew the AoE's boundary.. I often fly too close thinking I am still far away and get decloaked.

  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    tfomega wrote: »
    Playing devil's advocate for a moment.. an Fx that large may overload some vid cards..and cause lots of lag.. they may be trying to save some CPU cycles.

    On the other hand.. it would be nice if I knew the AoE's boundary.. I often fly too close thinking I am still far away and get decloaked.

    It's one of those things where the FX guys would have to take a look at toning down the impact so the boundaries of the power could be reflected by the FX...just one of those things, that I assumed would have to have been obvious - that they couldn't just drop out even more of a performance sucking hit - without making such a change.

    Hell, as is - it's going to be a trip with folks dropping out the Bio-Bubbles from T5 Counter...plus the potential Fluidic Poo (Fluidic Poo...heh, could we call it Runny Poo?).
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