test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Stealth Issues
virusdancer
Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
Reman Deflector does not add +Stealth listed in tooltip.
Romulan Deflector does not add +Stealth listed in tooltip.
Emergency Power to Auxiliary does not add +Stealth listed in tooltip.
Antimatter Spread and Scramble Sensors cause a cloaker to "appear".
Hangar Pets continue to see the cloaker.
Engineering Team does not clear DOFF'd Viral Matrix.
VFX for both Gravity Well and Charged Particle Burst do not reflect their actual AoE radius.
Gravity Well aftershocks from a GW originally dropped by a cloaker cause them to blip...as do aftershocks from a Tyken's Rift.
Weapon cycles from those attacking the cloaker continue even if the cloak cycle completes first.
Torpedoes will continue to follow a cloaked vessel.
Tachyon Detection Field can be used while cloaked in a T'varo.
Starship Stealth skill provides little for its cost compared to Starship Sensors.
Tractor Beam Repulsors are able to "lock" on a cloaked vessel.
Mines are able to "lock" on a cloaked vessel.
Can't remember if GW/TR aftershocks can still target a cloaked vessel.
There's more, but that's all that came to mind off the top of my head. Do you remember some that I may have forgotten here? Will have to check back later if any come to mind...
Romulan Deflector does not add +Stealth listed in tooltip.
Emergency Power to Auxiliary does not add +Stealth listed in tooltip.
Antimatter Spread and Scramble Sensors cause a cloaker to "appear".
Hangar Pets continue to see the cloaker.
Engineering Team does not clear DOFF'd Viral Matrix.
VFX for both Gravity Well and Charged Particle Burst do not reflect their actual AoE radius.
Gravity Well aftershocks from a GW originally dropped by a cloaker cause them to blip...as do aftershocks from a Tyken's Rift.
Weapon cycles from those attacking the cloaker continue even if the cloak cycle completes first.
Torpedoes will continue to follow a cloaked vessel.
Tachyon Detection Field can be used while cloaked in a T'varo.
Starship Stealth skill provides little for its cost compared to Starship Sensors.
Tractor Beam Repulsors are able to "lock" on a cloaked vessel.
Mines are able to "lock" on a cloaked vessel.
Can't remember if GW/TR aftershocks can still target a cloaked vessel.
There's more, but that's all that came to mind off the top of my head. Do you remember some that I may have forgotten here? Will have to check back later if any come to mind...
Post edited by Unknown User on
0
Comments
JOIN us in Star Citizen https://robertsspaceindustries.com/orgs/INQ <
One you forgot is, NPCs still seeing you while cloaked, and being able to use them in kerrat to target someone, or the Voth and Tholians not "seeing" you but hitting you with FAW when they attack someone else.
i.e. cryptic needs to devote the next few patches just to stealth and stealth detection if they want to earn their paychecks properly.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
Why should mines have better Sensors than the ship that dropped them? If they can put those kind of Sensors on the mines - wouldn't they have them on the ship?
Now if there were a console that dropped a Tachyon Generator that pulsed or something - that revealed cloakers - or even little pulsing mines - that might be one thing. But that a mine can lock on to something it should not be able to see? Meh...it's not about making cloakers uber or anything of the sort - just some bugs and logic issues.
Yep, forgot about NPCs in general. Thought it was nifty that they fixed exploiting targetable torps to chase folks down but annoying that hangar pets still can be used that way.
It's just a case that we can't really look at the balance for it, imho, while there are fundamental issues/bugs in play. Get that straightened out, and then one can look at both sides of the coin - and - work toward a balance for it. Neither side should be running wild...that's all, it should be a fun 'n frustrating dance between the two. It's not something the Feds have been able to ignore since LoR and with RvBing of the queues...oh well...just a thought.
Basically need to get both sides sorted out, have the checks 'n balances in play - get the investment and return on that investment matching up some...and have folks go at it.
JOIN us in Star Citizen https://robertsspaceindustries.com/orgs/INQ <
But I guess that is asking too much before they release the next money scam on us.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
If you can see, you can hit. If you can't see, you can't hit. So just like you can't land a tractor on a target you can't see, how are you landing a repulsor on a target you can't see?
It's not like a shockwave - which is hitting anything in range - repulsors actually need to select the target, which means that they're able to see and lock on a target that the ship itself can't see?
Thus...it's something broken.
Well it would need testing but you might even be able to lock a tractor beam on a cloaked ship which you can't see - I don't use tractor but seem to remember getting my Reman Sci with max aux being tractored by a Fed ship with a Tactical captain in an escort that was just really close - and they were not running TDF.(and it was 1vs1 with no-one else around boosting him with TDF)
IMO cloak has been to powerfull and unchecked for too long. I am all for fixing bugs, but nefing certain counters to cloakers would constitute a step into a very wrong direction.
Accessibility and fun, for casuals and more committed PvP'ers alike, suffered when state-of-the-art vapers entered the stage. Whilst in the past only a small handfull of people were aware and successful in employing anti-vaper tactics, now it's been catching on, which is a good thing IMO.
Removing or even nerfing counters would lead to a rise to vapers. As if there are not enough vapers around already. The more viable vapers become, the less viable in return other style of playing becomes.
I see it as an opportunity to get things squared away...and if the need exists, to develop actual additional counters instead of accidental additional counters.
Or even having folks looking at all the counters that are currently out there. It's not just about snooping - there's also zone denial. Whether it's a case of dropping some form of poo - dropping out GWs/TRs on visible targets - AtB CPB...cause honestly, the decloak works the same as long as there's 1 Aux...etc, etc, etc.
Even with the snooping angle - is it absolutely necessary just to have a single guy that can see out to 20-30km? What about having multiple folks that can see 5-10km? Bam, there's the target - tractor, decloak, VM, GW, obliterate, etc, etc, etc.
Perhaps add a Tachyon Pulse to Aceton Assimilators - so they reveal within a certain area...then make the trade of the AA <-> TDF. Folks can drop AA in an area...
There are plenty of things that Cryptic could drop out to cause issue for cloakers that are designed to do such...logically do such...rather than some of the things that are kind of headscratching moments, imho.
I know I'm an idealist - I want all sorts of balanced dances taking place - and that it's never going to happen. Was just a case with all the complaints about cloaking - as if folks were running around with 1,000,000 Stealth and that not a thing could be done...just thought it was funny how broken Stealth is (broken not in its favor) while folks were saying that stuff.
Folks want to run X build without any consideration about what's going on around them and what they might possibly face. Then they complain rather than accepting responsibility.
Maybe something along the lines of making GW spawn a set 5km directly in front of you if you have no target set.
There's a bug they've got to fix where when you drop a GW/TR out on a target with 1 life - it disappears. You see a mine or even a DPB of mines - you drop out the GW, it obliterates the DPB of mines...but it instantly vanishes instead of remaining. Which also means that no DOFF'd GWs appear. Same with targetable torps. Somebody presents you with that opportunity - heh - you should be able to take advantage of it.
The Fek'Ihri actually have targetable rifts/portals in the early KDF missions - we've got Grav Photons - why not Grav Mines that detonate after a period of time and generate rifts?
Like I said, it's not about trying to give either side the upper hand - it's about working out the bugs, what to me are logical issues, and implementing actual rather than accidental counters...
edit: What if the Tachyon Mines were to do Tachyon Pulses - or themselves create some form of anti-stealth envelope where folks could DPA them at a certain distance and create that sort of no-cloak zone? Cloakers would have to destroy them or risk being revealed - but in destroying them, they have revealed they are there...so you start snooping. That kind of dance...A does something, B does something, C does something...back and forth.
edit2: Speaking of logical issues, they go both ways. At what point shouldn't a damaged ship be visible? Ships falling apart, on fire, oozing and dribbling bits...but it's still cloaked? Have you ever sat there, with like 3% hull - where you're basically flying a fireball...and nobody can see you? I mean...really? Heh, I should be extremely visible at that point. So something along the lines of at a certain point of lost hull, stealth diminishes.
Hoo, boy....another bug.
The Tachyon Mines bit sounds interesting. ATM I think the Cloaking Tractor Beam mines fill a similar role - maybe graft it onto those instead?
On your edit2, there's a bit of a slippery slope, really. If the cloaking device lost efficacy with lower health, well....one could argue that every other system on the ship would. By which time we're moving more towards a damage model from SFC, eh?
Heh, but I don't believe that mines should be able to target a cloaked ship - so the Cloaked Tractors shouldn't be able to target/lock on something they can't see...going back to why would somebody have something that can see something else and not integrate that into their own ship so they could see that something too...if not far better than can be seen by some piddly little thing they've dropped out.
Are we saying that mines are Gas Sensing? They work along the lines of the emission torp? Slap that bit of narrative on them - and - it would solve the logic issue I've got.
TBH, I wasn't looking at it that way - just the much simpler looking at it like how Singularity Charge, CPB, and the like affect cloak...and how a ship that's on fire, rippling with energy, etc, etc, etc - would simply be more visible. Not that the cloaking device itself is less effective - but simply that the ship's in a more visible state in a similar manner to other mechanics making the ship more visible or completely visible.
-LindseyLohan - Under appreciated Rom Bug
-EmiliaClarke - Under construction engi recluse
What would the point of anybody cloaking then? Personally, I think they need to trim the distance at the high end while increasing the distance at the low end. Think folks should be able to see better out to 5km while beyond 15-20km is going to require an almost sacrificial build to accomplish. Thus the reason for adding things such as the mines or a device - to get more balanced and potentially interesting play...not making cloaks pointless.
I feel this is a good idea. On one end it'd give everyone 'some' defense against cloaking without going overboard, and on the other, it'd still let snooping be a thing.
For the other side, I feel that in turn cloaking if you didn't spec or do anything for it, you should be seen easily, but if you give up a lot for it (high aux power, spec into the stealth skill, stealth consoles, maybe other stuff) you should in turn be a lot more difficult to find.
Or in short, doing either thing pays off. Anyone can see cloakers at a decent range, but actually trying to stealth yourself makes a difference.
Bah, not another Grav Well type fix. Punishing sci while buffing everyone else, hell no.
These ones absolutely drive me nuts. At this point in the game, it's far too easy to "see" and attack cloaked ships with little investment.
These problems you mentioned will not be fixed.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
hahaha gd bants
When reading Virus' posts, you need to picture a pesky Torpedo T'Varo and what it doesn't like to encounter. Things like invisible GW and TDF are on his secret to be nerfed list.
Really? So with the additional things mentioned about being able to detect cloakers - did I change personalities? Or is it a case that I don't really care about making friends when talking about balance - so I'm going to end up usually ticking folks off on both sides of the coin?
Besides, where was a nerf asked for GW? It was simply a case of asking that the visual FX represent the full range of the effect - that's not a nerf.
As for TDF, asking that it not be able to be used with a T'varo while under EBC - oh - now I remember, that's your precious build (that you still don't use right - talk to Carter or Taylor)...gets your panties bunched up I can imagine.
Go through my post history - find requests from me that favor what I favor flying...yes, you will have to wade through all the posts from me that do not favor what I am flying. I may be a nub, but I'm not a complete nub that's going to pretend what he's flying isn't a garbage build (while doing it wrong in the process)...
Lol, so you want gravity wells (yes plural with doff aftershocks) that color 20Km of space purple in some instances? Not going to happen.
Someone had to come up with ways to counter vapers. Sorry if you don't like those builds, but it shows there are valid counters available.
With the FX covering the distance - they could be tuned at the same time to have less of a hit on performance.
Did people get out of bed without their brains this morning or something? Seriously...the forums are getting pathetic with all the freaking thoughtless whining.
Some of the things you mentioned in your initial post are bugs, and they should get fixed (like Pet behaviour). However some are not. I can understand your point though, you want the game to work more logical and all
In it's current state cloakers and the respective counters are actually pretty well balanced. They are a couple of direct counters availalbe (like PSW, GW, TB, CPB), and also some indirect counters (like VM). I don't really see the need for adding additional counters into the game. The ones that are available work.
Successfully countering vapers was never really only about adding points into sensors. Good snoopers employ a mix of measures, including Bridge Officer sci abilities that create a zone where cloak is being denied. In that sense, I consider actual raw cloak detection (via sensors) as a form of zone denial too.
A ship that has a stealth detection range of 5km, or a team that relies on a detection range of 10km, will be ripped into pieces in record time by any competent vaper. If that's the countermeasure that one brings into a match, that one might as well remove his shields, it would not make a difference. That's the reason why strictly relying on things like Warp plasma or Gravity Wells is usually not enough. They simply do not create a big enough zone. Taking into account how fast some cloakers are, they is no real difference wether you can spot them at 0.5km or 5km.
If you are asking to buff Gravity Wells, or to change how they work so it can be more viable against cloakers, well from current meta-game perspective it's not really required, Because sensor points + TDF already fill out that niche. If they buff GW, then I'd be fine with some toning-down of the sensor points approach.
A couple of days ago, someone posted in another thread that he is able to generate Grav Wells with a range of about 18km or something. That's intriguing, because that might work against cloakers. If you can't cast such a GW, and don't have enough cloak detection via sensors + TDF, you'd be screwed however.
People who can see cloakers such far away have already sacrificed almost anything else in order to accomplish that. And keep in mind, those are most likely burst numbers, it cannot be kept up 24/7. A cloaker needs to keep its distance, and time its attacks.
Cloakers were spoiled in the sense, that they did not have to invest anything at all into stealth, vapers could (and still can to an extend) minmax their spike damage, and not much else, and still get away with it. It made any other form of damage delivery and other playstyles complete obsolete. If someone wants to enjoy a state of perfect cloak, that needs be attached with some form of opportunity cost, like making it more difficult to one-shot opponents, or at least that one-shootting people becomes a team-effort and not a solo-achievement.
So any attempt of buffing cloakers needs to keep that in mind.
Here is the thing though: The PvP community already suffered from a prolonged phase where the actual issue was, "What would be the point of anybody not cloaking then?". It was a very lame and unfun meta-game, in addition of being even more unaccessible to casual and newcomers. Pure poison.