I tend not to post much. And when I do, it's generally because I want to give feedback or report a problem; so consider this thread to be both. I'm going to try to be as constructive as I can.
For the last six to twelve months (we can probably go back well before Season 8, but it has been - arguably - most pronounced since A Step Between Stars was released) STO has seen an increasingly large number of systems and missions that reward players who play them repeatedly. I'm not going to use the word starting with "G", but you all know what it is.
I'm not blind to the fact this is an MMO. Repetition is part of the game if you want to get the good kit and gear, but the pattern we have right now is that repetition is simply not challenging; it's neither difficult nor variable, and in many cases amounts to abusing the W,S,A and D keys and periodically mashing "F".
...And like a medication (and who likes medication, really?) we are effectively required to do it once per day, for a pre-defined period of time, if we want to get the reward at the end. What if we miss a few days? What if we burn out and need a break? Well... then we miss the reward. This is the case with the Mirror Hakeev DOFF, the preceding anniversary event's Dyson destroyers and their exclusive secondary deflector, and the preceding Winter Event.
Note that there has been, effectively, no break between any of these 'events'. We have been led to the assumption that if we do not get those items now then we may never get them again.
Can I put it out there that I do not mind playing a mission 14, 20 or even 30 times to get something of value. The issue is that we are told that we have only a limited amount of time to do it. Would I be writing this if the Mirror Event was being added as a permanent feature to STO that I could enjoy over the course of a year, as opposed to 20-odd days? No. In all probability, I wouldn't be, because I would be able to spend my time doing the things I want to do, rather than the things the game is telling me to do.
Heading off the inevitable response of: "But you don't need it. You simply want it. You could simply not play it..."
Sure, that's true. I have a heck of a lot of characters, and as much as I would like to do the mirror event on all of them - it's simply not possible. It would take me several hours of my day to go through this event on every character I have - hours I just don't have as a person who works for a living an earns a pay check.
Cryptic - I think you did the right thing with the Dyson reputation. There was no 'daily demand' to run a mission to get commendations - there is very real provision for the weekend players who get to play several hours at a stretch, and not much during the week. I seriously appreciated that, and I've enjoyed the Dyson reputation more because of it.
...Now how does any of this affect fleets?
I do not know what 'metrics' are telling you, Cryptic, but large and active fleets have metrics of their own. In many cases we have hundreds of players in our rosters, all of whom have expectations of their officers and leaders on what they need, want, and expect. We can tell a lot about player attitudes to the game by the attitudes we are seeing towards our own, smaller fleet communities, and what I am seeing is troubling me.
People are getting burnt out by the repetitive, unchallenging 'event-driven' content. People are walking away from the game, and fleet chat channels are silent and pretty uncooperative because everyone just wants to get "it" out of the way so they can log off and go and do something productive, or at least more enjoyable, with their time.
I have had multiple people in my fleet complain that no one is willing to run missions with them - a quick check of the roster tells me why: they're all playing mirror. No one has time to do anything else.
STO has a truly massive bias towards players in fleets. Beyond the social aspects, fleets reward their members with gear and ships you cannot get elsewhere. It's seldom an arbitrary association - the fleet they join matters to them, and the people they meet in fleets often become friendships that extend well beyond STO. That's a fantastic thing, so I'll put it bluntly -
You're killing that.
My fleet is fortunate in that it is quite large. The vast majority of fleets are not that large.
Please, Cryptic - when you design your next mission or event, give some thought to the above. I hate making these posts, but what I hate more is the idea that the people I enjoy playing with no longer enjoy playing your game. Frankly, if they go - I might go with them to whatever far away land they are having fun in.
so to make that wall of death text a short point; you dont like the time gated grinds? spending 15minutes a day doing it? you also dont like but you also want to see this event made into a permanent feature?
you dont like the way the fleet system is setup?
the first two are along the lines of whinging and the 3rd is half whine and half reasonable and the 4th is another whine. i think i should buy some cheese, it would go great with that whine. i know i got no reason to get into your face about it, but this system pwe setup is the way it is, you can either accept it because pwe wont change it for your benefit or anyone elses, or you can leave through that nice door over there, and being just another number, i doubt anyone will care too much if one player leaves.
the way i do it is simple, set aside 15minutes a day for the mirror event, do it and then have the time for other things.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I donn't mind the grinds, it's a mmo and grinds are part of it.
The larger problem to me is that the content doesn't really lead to people working with each other because it's not enough of a challenge. Instead of content that would require teamwork and effort we are getting content that is gated by time.
Not having content that takes effort, takes teamwork, you end up with people not trying to work with each other in fleets. Provide quality content that takes those things and people will work towards them, make better social bonds and the overall health of the game will improve.
Look at pvp, as bad as it is, the social ties and bonds there are very high. That's because to play in team play it takes working with each other. Most of the people I really enjoy playing with I met in channels for NWS because it takes working with each other. We need more content that takes teamwork.
Cryptic isn't forcing your fleet mates to do the event, it's their choice. Maybe you should organize Fleet events and encourage co-operation. I've seen "big" fleets composed of players randomly recruited that aren't long term oriented, making the fleet seem dead. This is a fleet management problem, they need to recruit quality over quantity. This can be seen when a small fleet's holdings actually out pace a big fleet's because the big fleet is composed of low quality players.
All of this "Cryptic isn't forcing you" nonsense is getting very very old.
I fully agree with the OP, for the last 2 weeks, I have logged in onl.y long enough to grind out my main/alts mirror events, and then I cannot wait to log off and do something fun. I am only thankful now that I didn't bother doing the holiday, or dyson events because if I did them, and then did the mirror event in succession, I wouldn't want to play this game for a long time after this point. I know our fleet is on the verge of big milestones in development, but I agree, I haven't seen anything happen in fleet chat in like a month. Everyone is just grinding out their daily run, and logging off, throwing what they can at the fleet without a single word.
If there is another event right on the heels of this one, even if the reward was that I could make a changeling, fly a Jem'hadar doohickie, get a BFG, and 8 360 degree death beams, I wouldn't do it. Even if they were like here grind this, you'll get 50k zen, as much as my mind would tell me "DO IT" I would not be able to bring myself to do it.
This game has quickly died, and I hope Cryptic realizes it, and tries to revive it before it is too late.
That said, I love STO, I have played for like 3 years now, and I have spent well over 300$ on it. I don't regret spending the money, I love my characters( and the character creator as I'm constantly making a new character just to play with the editor), and the community(aside from these forums) seems like a very genuine great group of people, who care about Star Trek.
P.S. Maybe for the next Lock Box, we could have NO Lock Box.
*edit*
I guess I'll add that there are at least 3 kinds of players in STO now:
The Casual(seems like the majority)
The Elitist MMOtard(most vocal on the forums?)
The Trolling Idiot(might be most vocal on the forums)
*edit*
I guess I'll add that there are at least 3 kinds of players in STO now:
The Casual(seems like the majority)
The Elitist MMOtard(most vocal on the forums?)
The Trolling Idiot(might be most vocal on the forums)
Your forgot:
Lazy/Self Entitled/Want everything free(vocal in game and forums)
I don't mind a little bit of girding, Like I totally understand the reputation system, and I'm fine with that. I'm going to agree with everyone here, it's event after event after event! In the past couple years, I was fine with the events, they were really fun! But now its really just a pain. I don't have all the time in the world to keep up (and thats only 3 toons, I don't know how people can do more) Like with the dyson ship, I was sorely disappointed with the final quality, hell I even deleted the ship and didn't complete getting it on my other two guys. Oh? want it back? its right there on the z store. Makes sense to make money, but this grind is getting ridiculous
TheGrateLordeCheesus Ship build coordinator for The Breakfast Club http://WWW.TBCSTO.COM Doesn't Owe AnyoneEC Kirks Prot
But, without the commendations, a "weekender" can't earn a bunch of marks and then convert to commendations. The daily bonus is just that, daily. You can't do 5 dailies in a day. With commendations, you could.
I don't know. I mean this entire change is extremely friendly to the casual player. The CASUAL player. It's going to be at a point now where you can log on for about 15 minutes in a day and get more bang for your buck. If you happen to have about an hour, you can rip through all four or five reps and make progress at a daily pace that is more impactful than before.
So I don't know. Maybe the weekender can start to rock it a bit more during the week. Like how long would an ISE take you during the week?
All this laziness/self entitlement is getting old.
DOOOOM!....or maybe you just only play with like minded people who have quit
Your forgot:
Lazy/Self Entitled/Want everything free(vocal in game and forums)
*sigh* I hate you, I don't want anything, just want to play STO like it was when I fell in love with it. Guess I still can, just play the old missions and everything.
well i had or have a very small fleet. but then the grindtopia started with every month one large grind event. with 2 weeks pause in between. most players just grinded. every event. and very exhausted and upset. so most fleet members left saysing nothing in the fleet progresses.. sure... when all are playing mirror or the grind fest and nobody donates anymore, progressions stalls.
thing is small fleets will again be frigged by these changes. we rarely find players to make full stf runs. and normally its 2 or 3 fleeties and the rest is pugged.
with the rep gone the way it is and the whole system only on event grinding. i dont see it getting better.
hw about making a event where you play Omega STFS.... ground and space??? that would be a change in a while. queues would be full again and finally more players would play some missions again
I don't know. I mean this entire change is extremely friendly to the casual player. The CASUAL player. It's going to be at a point now where you can log on for about 15 minutes in a day and get more bang for your buck. If you happen to have about an hour, you can rip through all four or five reps and make progress at a daily pace that is more impactful than before.
So I don't know. Maybe the weekender can start to rock it a bit more during the week. Like how long would an ISE take you during the week?
I'm pretty sure the week end warrior will be fine. You don't have to convert marks into commendations. Instead you can just dump those marks directly into the project cutting out the middle man.
The real issue as to why they are getting rid of the commendations is because you can still do those large xp projects after t5 and get a loot box and dil. They removed the small xp project that only required marks that gave the loot box. The loot box undermines the rep store a bit. Without commendations there will be no need to let you do xp assignments after t5.
All of this "Cryptic isn't forcing you" nonsense is getting very very old.
I fully agree with the OP, for the last 2 weeks, I have logged in onl.y long enough to grind out my main/alts mirror events, and then I cannot wait to log off and do something fun. I am only thankful now that I didn't bother doing the holiday, or dyson events because if I did them, and then did the mirror event in succession, I wouldn't want to play this game for a long time after this point. I know our fleet is on the verge of big milestones in development, but I agree, I haven't seen anything happen in fleet chat in like a month. Everyone is just grinding out their daily run, and logging off, throwing what they can at the fleet without a single word.
If there is another event right on the heels of this one, even if the reward was that I could make a changeling, fly a Jem'hadar doohickie, get a BFG, and 8 360 degree death beams, I wouldn't do it. Even if they were like here grind this, you'll get 50k zen, as much as my mind would tell me "DO IT" I would not be able to bring myself to do it.
This game has quickly died, and I hope Cryptic realizes it, and tries to revive it before it is too late.
That said, I love STO, I have played for like 3 years now, and I have spent well over 300$ on it. I don't regret spending the money, I love my characters( and the character creator as I'm constantly making a new character just to play with the editor), and the community(aside from these forums) seems like a very genuine great group of people, who care about Star Trek.
P.S. Maybe for the next Lock Box, we could have NO Lock Box.
*edit*
I guess I'll add that there are at least 3 kinds of players in STO now:
The Casual(seems like the majority)
The Elitist MMOtard(most vocal on the forums?)
The Trolling Idiot(might be most vocal on the forums)
I haven't been playing this game very long maybe like 7 months or so. I really do enjoy playing Star Trek games and right now STO is fulfilling that need. This is also my first MMO and didn't realize how much "grind" there was. To me I don't mind shooting the borg 1 millions times as for me it fulfills my need to pew pew like Star Trek.
What I have noticed tho is that the "grind" does take A LOT out of you. The winter event was ok as it only took 15 - 20 mins for 3 toons so it wasn't bad. The FE with Worf, it still wasn't that bad but by the 3rd time thru it I was trying to get thru it as quickly as possible. Then the anniversary event came... well THAT was annoying, by that time I had 4 toons and tho it only took 20ish mins to do it was annoying as the game for it was horrible IMO.
At this point in time in my life in STO I was getting burnt out tho. I had gotten my main tac toon pretty up there in DPS and I was blowing thru STF's like nothing. For me it wasn't fun. I was told to grind my reps get the highest gear attainable hone my skills but in doing so the fun factor of what Star Trek was FOR ME wasn't there.
Even blowing up the borg was not fun as the strategy given to me was to park my MVAE within 2k of the target and go back and forth... it was kinda boring and sometimes fell asleep doing stf's. As well none of my fleet mates were on or doing the grind themselves. I found myself playing alone and pugging and it wasn't fun or challenging as blowing thru the 3 borg stuff took like all of 30 mins or so.
So I came up with the Star Trek Battles channel. It addressed a couple of things. 1, it made the stf's more drawn out and it forced me to fly my ship like in the Star Trek. 2, it made it a bit more challenging and sometimes really made the group work for the optionals. It also addressed the power creep, I and my fellow STB captains use MK X-XI weapons which made us not blow thru these stf's. It also created team work, by doing this it has made STO more fun for me and some others. For more info on STB check my sig... shameless plug:D
Going back to the subject at hand, well the Mirror event is another grind but by playing the game the way I wanted it has made it less painfull and having the people to do it with also has been a bonus. The people I have met have made this more enjoyable, if people start leaving than it will make the game boring.
I hope that this game keeps going and I also hope that future content is less grindy but it is what it is and we as players can do something about it if we choose to.
The grind is more of a problem for those with a lot of characters. I have 3 50s and may grind a 4th if my fiancee decides to play. With that I only have reputation on one and plan to keep it that way. I use the others to train in the tier 3 BoFF abilities and for farming EC/Fleet Marks for Projects. I put a Mobius on my Engineer and when the Summer event comes the speed boat on my Sci.
I do agree they need to look at the Episode list and run more features similar to when they do it for the Reman, and Breen Boffs except for other loot. How about the Breen Series that would give MK XII Breen parts and weapons, or the Cardassian series to get the Dominion Polaron Weapons in VR Purple MK XIIs. Same for the piercing Tetryon and Plasma Disruptor. I could go on about all the unique items from episodes that could be spruced up for limited TIME FEs.
I tend to think Cryptic might be ok with the grind. Those who don't like it and need dilithium will pay real money for dilithium instead of grinding.
However it does suck the fun out considerably. The cryptic endgame seems to be to make as much money on Sto as quickly as possible for fear of it fading away and dieing.
This would be a fairly sound stratergy given most IP's around, but this is Star Trek, people love star trek and are more fanatical about it than most other IPs.
So make it fun and the game will live another 10 years making money, current course a max of 4 years.
All this laziness/self entitlement is getting old.
DOOOOM!....or maybe you just only play with like minded people who have quit
Your forgot:
Lazy/Self Entitled/Want everything free(vocal in game and forums)
I don't want stuff for free. I want to be able to "pay" for it at my own pace. Having strict time limits forces me to do a lot of content I don't like* in very quick succession, which a) makes the content feel worse and b) makes me feel like playing the game is a chore. Which is bad.
"Oh, you're not forced to do it!"
I am if I want the reward, and since the reward is not only valuable but likely partially unique (Mirror Hakeev), I have to get it if I don't want to feel like I've really missed out.
If I could do the grind without the pressure, take it one character at a time maybe, it would be better, and I wouldn't have an issue with it being a grind.
TL;DR: Grind or time-gated. Not both.
*Post-"fix", Mirror Invasion is a frustrating charlie-fox that makes me feel like I've lost even if I didn't die once and closed 30 rifts. Dat spam, spam, FAW spam, rift spam, spam, FAW spam, spam, spam, and rift spam.
I am NikkoJT, Foundry author and terrible player. Follow me!
There used to be a picture here, but they changed signatures and I can't be bothered to replace it.
Honestly, you want to know what kind of Repetition I'm tired of?
These kinds of threads. I'm tired of the players who think they know best and proclaim that, if they don't set it up to THEIR needs, then obviously STO is going to die and that they'll laugh as it disappears, their wallets forever closed as they look down on the company.
I'm not sure I agree with the "this is what it is doing to fleets" thing. Yes, it sounds like an issue for your fleet, given that it clearly has a focus on teaming to do end game content together. I personally am focused on fleets for more social, less team-based, purposes and don't see a great deal upset with my fleetmates.
That is only based on the two fleets I enjoy being part of, one large (Stonewall) and one small (Space Neon Lobsters) Both groups seem happy with everyone doing whatever content they want to, having a chat or get together along the way, rather than expecting conformity in activities.
In short, the "grind" may not work for you, but it isn't a blanket issue for all fleets. I suspect fleet types are just as diverse as player types.
I tend to think Cryptic might be ok with the grind. Those who don't like it and need dilithium will pay real money for dilithium instead of grinding.
However it does suck the fun out considerably. The cryptic endgame seems to be to make as much money on Sto as quickly as possible for fear of it fading away and dieing.
This would be a fairly sound stratergy given most IP's around, but this is Star Trek, people love star trek and are more fanatical about it than most other IPs.
So make it fun and the game will live another 10 years making money, current course a max of 4 years.
And I suppose that's the main problem. Cryptic are no longer in the business of making a game, they're making a job. We're all employees in the dilithium mine grinding away. STO can't be called a game anymore if it's no longer fun.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Harden up Princess Looking for an Oceanic fleet? Check out our website: www.ausmonauts.com
I agree with you Koppenflak. My main fleet is somewhat large and decently active(around 450 characters, unsure of actual number of players). The upper management and some of the lower ranks(like myself) usually get together and do STFs and other things. There is normally player interaction on the fleet chat and our inter-fleet channel with our KDF sister fleet. This last event has silenced most of that. When the event started some of us got together to run this mission together but this tapered off after a week. We are an international group of people and our time to play doesn't always allow for fleet play. This event has removed almost all of that time.
If there weren't so many dilithium sinks, I would not have run it. I imagine there are more than a couple of my fleetmates who would agree with me.
Even though I don't believe any of this will change, I thank you for putting into words what I was thinking in regards to fleets and events.
Wow, are you in my fleet? This is my fleet exactly right now...:(
To the OP, very good post. It put into words how I've been feeling about this never ending G-word , and how it has been affecting my fleet. The last 4 nights, I've only logged in to do the MU event then logged right back out after because I am totally burned out on time-gated rewards. Yes, I know I don't have to do them, but as many have said, you end up missing out on the rewards if you don't partake in the event.
I just hope that Cryptic will lay off the time-gated events until the summer event and give us all a break...I just don't see that happening, though, and that makes me sad.
i dont mind repetition if the mission is challenging, and if you actually can lose, and in process not only lose, but if there is some thing taken from you that make that game/mission challenging and interesting to play. i can play that kind of mission all the time, as you will all ways look for new angle to finish it, and if you fail you will get burned, so challenge accepted, again and again..
im not scared to play any mission in STO, why? because nothing will happen to my toon if i fail. so then this repetition is just annoyance and waste of time, and serves only for us to lose time on some thing that is not even challenging.
they need to implement fleet wars, pvp and pve, ability to lose gear or credits when you die/lose in pvp and pve.
it is not everything in grind, there is something called exploration (and no i dont think space) but ships and setups. this game could always be awesome, it is not like it lack content, but it all ways fall short. and for that, players and community is not guilty.
and i would like to ask some one from cryptic. for how long do you think we will continue to buy new ships that are essentially the same as old but whit new skin?
some things became old very fast, and i think that you can all ready see that wall that you will hit.
Just want to clarify that I'm not 'anti grind', I don't mind the reputation to an extent, even these event grinds are ok. But 3 in a row, especially this boring mirror one with little meaningful content with it just gets people burned out quicker. If you want people to play your game, then making them feel relieved when they finish playing isn't a good sign.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Harden up Princess Looking for an Oceanic fleet? Check out our website: www.ausmonauts.com
Put those two in charge at the same time and you get the train wreck that we've had in the last 4 non-stop grind months .
And guess what ... more is on the way .
In a way ... they are pushing us to pick and choose .
And more and more choose to opt out ... from STO .
Almost everyone in my Fleet said thank god thats over with ....not a good sign many in the fleet didnt do this event and lot did splitting the fleet........................not good
Reputations ........Are not end game content.........there grinds nothing more to get you redy for end game content
The thing is this
We do not have any end game content in STO yet !
If anyone thiniks we do.........................................................
And i agree with the OP
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I am actually one of the Fleet admirals of the 101st Fleet; and we do have a alliance with the Ausmonauts that has been fun and benefical for both sides; helping one another out and doing missions together.
However; I do agree that this constant grind over the past several months has been a bit rough. If the 4th Anniversey had not been a grind I think we would have been better of. However the constant grind events I can agree would be starting to get to people.
I also do agree with other forum posters that say "you don't have to do it if you don't want to".
However; I think it would be nice if Crytpic gave us some sort of break here; let the community who feel worn out a bit of a break to get back to enjoying the game more.
I know I am bouncing across both sides here; but I do see both sides point of view and their arguments or points of view. However; I think we can agree from both sides that these grindy events; we do need a break from.
I can only imagine how this might be affecting smaller fleets and communities.
This is pretty much what happened to my mid-sized fleet. While a grind has always been part of the game, Everyone went into SUPER GRIND OVERDRIVE MODE! during winter event and once by the time the mirror event showed up (after winter event, grindaversary, etc) most of them were burned out... hardly log in at all anymore. I keep playing because i'm still having fun (completely skipped the winter event and only grindaversary'd on one character) but i'm feeling the burnout too.
And like you said, its a shame, because people miss rewards. And when you miss rewards, (as crazy as it is) people tend to feel they can no longer 'catch up.' which could very well lead to them not logging in for a long, long time.
This and what the OP wrote can be applied to me and the fleet I'm a member of.
You don't want to miss out, so you go along with it. But this perceived 'mandatoriness' combined with the amount of repetition kills all the fun.
If there wasn't a special doff attached, skipping it would be a lot easier.
And "You don't have to do it" completely misses the point. Almost nobody playing a game likes to trail behind or to be at a disadvantage.
So if you have just an ounce of ambition in you, doing reps and doing such events is not optional. Because optional are only things that have an alternative.
My mirror grind was 4 and a half hours a day long (I'll let you figure out how many toons that is)
4 and a half hours x 15 days (guestimating due to the occasions a lack of event timer meant I did not get a reward but ignoring the many, many 'bonus' runs to help fleetmates get decently sized mark boxes) = 67 and a half hours or..
TWO POINT EIGHT SOLID DAYS OF MIRROR INVASION
That is just insane for just a game
I wanted to stop, but once I'd begun, I was compelled to do it as otherwise the work done already would be pointless thus I was locked in the Skinner box mechanic until the end
My fleet all did the grind together, sick of pugging yet despite the fact we could get 70+ marks on elite, by the end we were simply afking/aimlessly flying under cloak/suicide attacking for the 15 minutes, not caring about the box prize, just wanting it to be over
That is not a good piece of content at all.
Lets say if you only did it on one toon its still three and a half hours total - compared to, say the Qmas which was 5 minutes a run tops; its a huge increase in time invested
In fact...
If cryptic wants to do grinds of such length, they should give us the zen equivalent to the minimum standard wage as a reward as its almost a bloody job
However; I do agree that this constant grind over the past several months has been a bit rough. If the 4th Anniversey had not been a grind I think we would have been better of. However the constant grind events I can agree would be starting to get to people.
Spot on.
Grinds are part of how MMo's operate.
There'll always be a bit of a grind.
However, managing the meta game means getting to grips with things on a longer term basis.
The utterly reprehensible decision to turn the player appreciation into the grindaversary (and what a grind it was too) was extremely unwise.
Attracting and keeping new players is one thing, a good thing, doing so at the expense of your long term supporters, a very very bad thing.
In a way ... they are pushing us to pick and choose .
And more and more choose to opt out ... from STO .
It's true, after this event, I'm feeling really glad that Blizzard fixed Diablo cuz I just got RoS and I like it so far(compared to the original d3 release that made me hate Blizzard). So I may have to go take a few months off and let my zen build up again.
you seem to be looking at events in the same way as you look at reputation.
they are totally differant animals even though they use the same watering hole to fill the projects there is no comparison between the two.
a reputation project can be started at any time and it could take you five years or longer to fill it and it doesent matter the items you need to fill your project will always be available.
an event project is time gated and the items you need to fill them are only due when the event is running, once the event ends if you have not completed the project you will have to wait till the run the event anain if they ever do and hope they use the same tokens as well.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
But when you have so many grinds running parallel to each other that your only thought is "if I do this grind then I wont have time for that one ..." -- well then Cryptic has succeeded in their intent ... "unifying the player experience so there is no difference between Veterans and Newbies" .
Problem is , they have succeeded in the most wrong and boring way possible ... -- while the New Player has the choice of joining a large Fleet and get somewhat ahead of the curve , or start from Zero form a Fleet and never catch up .
And I mean Never-Ever catch up .
Like EVER .
Because the "Event of the Month" is designed to not let you catch up .
And if Cryptic thinks that their End Game is enough to keep the casual player interested in the face of all those levels of Grind ... , well , what can I say ... -- except they better bring back Gozer ... -- the only guy who knew how to make grind content that ppl actually liked .
(despite the fact it was not perfect ...)
I agree. I do not like deadlined events. I'm ok with doing something 14 times, or 40 times, but having to squeeze that in before an arbitrary finishing date is extremely annoying. Especially when the mission itself has a mandatory length, and there's no way to finish it faster regardless of team skill.
Comments
so to make that wall of death text a short point; you dont like the time gated grinds? spending 15minutes a day doing it? you also dont like but you also want to see this event made into a permanent feature?
you dont like the way the fleet system is setup?
the first two are along the lines of whinging and the 3rd is half whine and half reasonable and the 4th is another whine. i think i should buy some cheese, it would go great with that whine. i know i got no reason to get into your face about it, but this system pwe setup is the way it is, you can either accept it because pwe wont change it for your benefit or anyone elses, or you can leave through that nice door over there, and being just another number, i doubt anyone will care too much if one player leaves.
the way i do it is simple, set aside 15minutes a day for the mirror event, do it and then have the time for other things.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
The larger problem to me is that the content doesn't really lead to people working with each other because it's not enough of a challenge. Instead of content that would require teamwork and effort we are getting content that is gated by time.
Not having content that takes effort, takes teamwork, you end up with people not trying to work with each other in fleets. Provide quality content that takes those things and people will work towards them, make better social bonds and the overall health of the game will improve.
Look at pvp, as bad as it is, the social ties and bonds there are very high. That's because to play in team play it takes working with each other. Most of the people I really enjoy playing with I met in channels for NWS because it takes working with each other. We need more content that takes teamwork.
All of this "Cryptic isn't forcing you" nonsense is getting very very old.
I fully agree with the OP, for the last 2 weeks, I have logged in onl.y long enough to grind out my main/alts mirror events, and then I cannot wait to log off and do something fun. I am only thankful now that I didn't bother doing the holiday, or dyson events because if I did them, and then did the mirror event in succession, I wouldn't want to play this game for a long time after this point. I know our fleet is on the verge of big milestones in development, but I agree, I haven't seen anything happen in fleet chat in like a month. Everyone is just grinding out their daily run, and logging off, throwing what they can at the fleet without a single word.
If there is another event right on the heels of this one, even if the reward was that I could make a changeling, fly a Jem'hadar doohickie, get a BFG, and 8 360 degree death beams, I wouldn't do it. Even if they were like here grind this, you'll get 50k zen, as much as my mind would tell me "DO IT" I would not be able to bring myself to do it.
This game has quickly died, and I hope Cryptic realizes it, and tries to revive it before it is too late.
That said, I love STO, I have played for like 3 years now, and I have spent well over 300$ on it. I don't regret spending the money, I love my characters( and the character creator as I'm constantly making a new character just to play with the editor), and the community(aside from these forums) seems like a very genuine great group of people, who care about Star Trek.
P.S. Maybe for the next Lock Box, we could have NO Lock Box.
*edit*
I guess I'll add that there are at least 3 kinds of players in STO now:
The Casual(seems like the majority)
The Elitist MMOtard(most vocal on the forums?)
The Trolling Idiot(might be most vocal on the forums)
I thought WoW's forums had angry elitist snobs, but I never could have imagined the level STO forums has.
All this laziness/self entitlement is getting old.
DOOOOM!....or maybe you just only play with like minded people who have quit
Your forgot:
Lazy/Self Entitled/Want everything free(vocal in game and forums)
Ship build coordinator for The Breakfast Club http://WWW.TBCSTO.COM
Doesn't Owe Anyone EC
Kirks Prot
I don't know. I mean this entire change is extremely friendly to the casual player. The CASUAL player. It's going to be at a point now where you can log on for about 15 minutes in a day and get more bang for your buck. If you happen to have about an hour, you can rip through all four or five reps and make progress at a daily pace that is more impactful than before.
So I don't know. Maybe the weekender can start to rock it a bit more during the week. Like how long would an ISE take you during the week?
*sigh* I hate you, I don't want anything, just want to play STO like it was when I fell in love with it. Guess I still can, just play the old missions and everything.
I thought WoW's forums had angry elitist snobs, but I never could have imagined the level STO forums has.
thing is small fleets will again be frigged by these changes. we rarely find players to make full stf runs. and normally its 2 or 3 fleeties and the rest is pugged.
with the rep gone the way it is and the whole system only on event grinding. i dont see it getting better.
hw about making a event where you play Omega STFS.... ground and space??? that would be a change in a while. queues would be full again and finally more players would play some missions again
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I'm pretty sure the week end warrior will be fine. You don't have to convert marks into commendations. Instead you can just dump those marks directly into the project cutting out the middle man.
The real issue as to why they are getting rid of the commendations is because you can still do those large xp projects after t5 and get a loot box and dil. They removed the small xp project that only required marks that gave the loot box. The loot box undermines the rep store a bit. Without commendations there will be no need to let you do xp assignments after t5.
I haven't been playing this game very long maybe like 7 months or so. I really do enjoy playing Star Trek games and right now STO is fulfilling that need. This is also my first MMO and didn't realize how much "grind" there was. To me I don't mind shooting the borg 1 millions times as for me it fulfills my need to pew pew like Star Trek.
What I have noticed tho is that the "grind" does take A LOT out of you. The winter event was ok as it only took 15 - 20 mins for 3 toons so it wasn't bad. The FE with Worf, it still wasn't that bad but by the 3rd time thru it I was trying to get thru it as quickly as possible. Then the anniversary event came... well THAT was annoying, by that time I had 4 toons and tho it only took 20ish mins to do it was annoying as the game for it was horrible IMO.
At this point in time in my life in STO I was getting burnt out tho. I had gotten my main tac toon pretty up there in DPS and I was blowing thru STF's like nothing. For me it wasn't fun. I was told to grind my reps get the highest gear attainable hone my skills but in doing so the fun factor of what Star Trek was FOR ME wasn't there.
Even blowing up the borg was not fun as the strategy given to me was to park my MVAE within 2k of the target and go back and forth... it was kinda boring and sometimes fell asleep doing stf's. As well none of my fleet mates were on or doing the grind themselves. I found myself playing alone and pugging and it wasn't fun or challenging as blowing thru the 3 borg stuff took like all of 30 mins or so.
So I came up with the Star Trek Battles channel. It addressed a couple of things. 1, it made the stf's more drawn out and it forced me to fly my ship like in the Star Trek. 2, it made it a bit more challenging and sometimes really made the group work for the optionals. It also addressed the power creep, I and my fellow STB captains use MK X-XI weapons which made us not blow thru these stf's. It also created team work, by doing this it has made STO more fun for me and some others. For more info on STB check my sig... shameless plug:D
Going back to the subject at hand, well the Mirror event is another grind but by playing the game the way I wanted it has made it less painfull and having the people to do it with also has been a bonus. The people I have met have made this more enjoyable, if people start leaving than it will make the game boring.
I hope that this game keeps going and I also hope that future content is less grindy but it is what it is and we as players can do something about it if we choose to.
I do agree they need to look at the Episode list and run more features similar to when they do it for the Reman, and Breen Boffs except for other loot. How about the Breen Series that would give MK XII Breen parts and weapons, or the Cardassian series to get the Dominion Polaron Weapons in VR Purple MK XIIs. Same for the piercing Tetryon and Plasma Disruptor. I could go on about all the unique items from episodes that could be spruced up for limited TIME FEs.
However it does suck the fun out considerably. The cryptic endgame seems to be to make as much money on Sto as quickly as possible for fear of it fading away and dieing.
This would be a fairly sound stratergy given most IP's around, but this is Star Trek, people love star trek and are more fanatical about it than most other IPs.
So make it fun and the game will live another 10 years making money, current course a max of 4 years.
I don't want stuff for free. I want to be able to "pay" for it at my own pace. Having strict time limits forces me to do a lot of content I don't like* in very quick succession, which a) makes the content feel worse and b) makes me feel like playing the game is a chore. Which is bad.
"Oh, you're not forced to do it!"
I am if I want the reward, and since the reward is not only valuable but likely partially unique (Mirror Hakeev), I have to get it if I don't want to feel like I've really missed out.
If I could do the grind without the pressure, take it one character at a time maybe, it would be better, and I wouldn't have an issue with it being a grind.
TL;DR: Grind or time-gated. Not both.
*Post-"fix", Mirror Invasion is a frustrating charlie-fox that makes me feel like I've lost even if I didn't die once and closed 30 rifts. Dat spam, spam, FAW spam, rift spam, spam, FAW spam, spam, spam, and rift spam.
There used to be a picture here, but they changed signatures and I can't be bothered to replace it.
These kinds of threads. I'm tired of the players who think they know best and proclaim that, if they don't set it up to THEIR needs, then obviously STO is going to die and that they'll laugh as it disappears, their wallets forever closed as they look down on the company.
That is only based on the two fleets I enjoy being part of, one large (Stonewall) and one small (Space Neon Lobsters) Both groups seem happy with everyone doing whatever content they want to, having a chat or get together along the way, rather than expecting conformity in activities.
In short, the "grind" may not work for you, but it isn't a blanket issue for all fleets. I suspect fleet types are just as diverse as player types.
And I suppose that's the main problem. Cryptic are no longer in the business of making a game, they're making a job. We're all employees in the dilithium mine grinding away. STO can't be called a game anymore if it's no longer fun.
Harden up Princess
Looking for an Oceanic fleet? Check out our website:
www.ausmonauts.com
Who doesn't?
Wow, are you in my fleet? This is my fleet exactly right now...:(
To the OP, very good post. It put into words how I've been feeling about this never ending G-word , and how it has been affecting my fleet. The last 4 nights, I've only logged in to do the MU event then logged right back out after because I am totally burned out on time-gated rewards. Yes, I know I don't have to do them, but as many have said, you end up missing out on the rewards if you don't partake in the event.
I just hope that Cryptic will lay off the time-gated events until the summer event and give us all a break...I just don't see that happening, though, and that makes me sad.
Co-Founder of TOS Veterans and TOS Qan Mang
im not scared to play any mission in STO, why? because nothing will happen to my toon if i fail. so then this repetition is just annoyance and waste of time, and serves only for us to lose time on some thing that is not even challenging.
they need to implement fleet wars, pvp and pve, ability to lose gear or credits when you die/lose in pvp and pve.
it is not everything in grind, there is something called exploration (and no i dont think space) but ships and setups. this game could always be awesome, it is not like it lack content, but it all ways fall short. and for that, players and community is not guilty.
and i would like to ask some one from cryptic. for how long do you think we will continue to buy new ships that are essentially the same as old but whit new skin?
some things became old very fast, and i think that you can all ready see that wall that you will hit.
Harden up Princess
Looking for an Oceanic fleet? Check out our website:
www.ausmonauts.com
D'Angelo likes "events" .
Gecko likes Reputations .
Put those two in charge at the same time and you get the train wreck that we've had in the last 4 non-stop grind months .
And guess what ... more is on the way .
In a way ... they are pushing us to pick and choose .
And more and more choose to opt out ... from STO .
Almost everyone in my Fleet said thank god thats over with ....not a good sign many in the fleet didnt do this event and lot did splitting the fleet........................not good
Reputations ........Are not end game content.........there grinds nothing more to get you redy for end game content
The thing is this
We do not have any end game content in STO yet !
If anyone thiniks we do.........................................................
And i agree with the OP
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I am actually one of the Fleet admirals of the 101st Fleet; and we do have a alliance with the Ausmonauts that has been fun and benefical for both sides; helping one another out and doing missions together.
However; I do agree that this constant grind over the past several months has been a bit rough. If the 4th Anniversey had not been a grind I think we would have been better of. However the constant grind events I can agree would be starting to get to people.
I also do agree with other forum posters that say "you don't have to do it if you don't want to".
However; I think it would be nice if Crytpic gave us some sort of break here; let the community who feel worn out a bit of a break to get back to enjoying the game more.
I know I am bouncing across both sides here; but I do see both sides point of view and their arguments or points of view. However; I think we can agree from both sides that these grindy events; we do need a break from.
I can only imagine how this might be affecting smaller fleets and communities.
Just my thoughts on the matter
This and what the OP wrote can be applied to me and the fleet I'm a member of.
You don't want to miss out, so you go along with it. But this perceived 'mandatoriness' combined with the amount of repetition kills all the fun.
If there wasn't a special doff attached, skipping it would be a lot easier.
And "You don't have to do it" completely misses the point. Almost nobody playing a game likes to trail behind or to be at a disadvantage.
So if you have just an ounce of ambition in you, doing reps and doing such events is not optional. Because optional are only things that have an alternative.
4 and a half hours x 15 days (guestimating due to the occasions a lack of event timer meant I did not get a reward but ignoring the many, many 'bonus' runs to help fleetmates get decently sized mark boxes) = 67 and a half hours or..
TWO POINT EIGHT SOLID DAYS OF MIRROR INVASION
That is just insane for just a game
I wanted to stop, but once I'd begun, I was compelled to do it as otherwise the work done already would be pointless thus I was locked in the Skinner box mechanic until the end
My fleet all did the grind together, sick of pugging yet despite the fact we could get 70+ marks on elite, by the end we were simply afking/aimlessly flying under cloak/suicide attacking for the 15 minutes, not caring about the box prize, just wanting it to be over
That is not a good piece of content at all.
Lets say if you only did it on one toon its still three and a half hours total - compared to, say the Qmas which was 5 minutes a run tops; its a huge increase in time invested
In fact...
If cryptic wants to do grinds of such length, they should give us the zen equivalent to the minimum standard wage as a reward as its almost a bloody job
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Spot on.
Grinds are part of how MMo's operate.
There'll always be a bit of a grind.
However, managing the meta game means getting to grips with things on a longer term basis.
The utterly reprehensible decision to turn the player appreciation into the grindaversary (and what a grind it was too) was extremely unwise.
Attracting and keeping new players is one thing, a good thing, doing so at the expense of your long term supporters, a very very bad thing.
It's true, after this event, I'm feeling really glad that Blizzard fixed Diablo cuz I just got RoS and I like it so far(compared to the original d3 release that made me hate Blizzard). So I may have to go take a few months off and let my zen build up again.
I thought WoW's forums had angry elitist snobs, but I never could have imagined the level STO forums has.
they are totally differant animals even though they use the same watering hole to fill the projects there is no comparison between the two.
a reputation project can be started at any time and it could take you five years or longer to fill it and it doesent matter the items you need to fill your project will always be available.
an event project is time gated and the items you need to fill them are only due when the event is running, once the event ends if you have not completed the project you will have to wait till the run the event anain if they ever do and hope they use the same tokens as well.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
As a Grind ?
Why yes ... , yes he does .
Sure , if you have enough time you can finish one grind and get to another and another and another and another .
But when you have so many grinds running parallel to each other that your only thought is "if I do this grind then I wont have time for that one ..." -- well then Cryptic has succeeded in their intent ... "unifying the player experience so there is no difference between Veterans and Newbies" .
Problem is , they have succeeded in the most wrong and boring way possible ... -- while the New Player has the choice of joining a large Fleet and get somewhat ahead of the curve , or start from Zero form a Fleet and never catch up .
And I mean Never-Ever catch up .
Like EVER .
Because the "Event of the Month" is designed to not let you catch up .
And if Cryptic thinks that their End Game is enough to keep the casual player interested in the face of all those levels of Grind ... , well , what can I say ... -- except they better bring back Gozer ... -- the only guy who knew how to make grind content that ppl actually liked .
(despite the fact it was not perfect ...)