The difference between Reputation powers and pay 2 win consoles and even doffs is, that you are ultimately limited in how many of them you can use at any given time, even if you can pay to extend slots a bit and even if you have way more options in your roster.
The reason they change the rep system is, that they like to keep adding reps which just would make players more and more powerful without any kind of limit. So give it another couple of years with 3-4 new reps per year and the problem just becomes wors and worse.
So everyone can now choose to grind them all out and pick 4 out of twice as many passives as before or limit the grind and be locked into limitd build options.
I like the revamp.
The change should have come sooner, or ideally it should have been like this from the start. But better now than never.
If they eliminated stacking, and in fact replaced it with diminished returns, that would a whole heap of good for balance and fixing the creep.
Cryptic can still offer their store items and lobi goodies, and trait passives/doffs and other such stuff can still exist too.
If all of them just worked under the idea that the more of any of them you have, the lesser the bonus you receive, everything would be better off as a result in my eyes.
Yes pay to win does mean you need to cough up cash to win. Whether directly from your own pocket or indirectly from someone elses' pocket, in this case the dil exchange.
However neither are true you can play and beat all PvE content in this game with the level 40 ships, and if you know what you are doing with the default gear that comes with it. Pay to win really only comes into its' own in a game with a decent PvP system, which this game does not have.
and what about a lifer who bought their LTS at the start of the game (4 years ago) at a price where it would take 16 months to get it back, does not buy zen anymore, and either sells their stipend on the exchange, or uses it for themselves... is it technically pay to win anymore if they are using free money to get stuff?
yes i read that already. first off we get 2 reps a year. he is not saying the game will be here for 100 years. its an exaggerated argument just to highlight a problem.
Now, you said 'If they really want any fresh 50 to be on par with vet 50's' which they dont. what they dont want is a gap that has unlimited growth, so they are reigning that in.
they still want a gap, and it is still a sizable gap that already exists when you factor in weapons and ships and powers, but they dont want that gap to go on forever.
whether its 4 powers or 8 or whatever line in the sand they pick, they dont want that to go on forever.
It would actually be 10 years and a little less since we have some in place.
It's not 200 reputations but powers. Each rep we had 5 per rep. 9 total but we had to pick which one in the first four tiers then the fifth was common to all at T5. So 2 a year is actually 18 powers per year introduced.
But why the need to even introduce more reps if they feel it's a problem?
I know you think that they have no other motive for this except to solve the "power creep" but if that was truly their only reason for it, they would fix all the "power creep" in the game. That is just the term they use as a shield and the white knights are grabbing it and defending it as well.
If they have a problem that needs to be fixed, then fine. But it's obviously the reason given is not the full truth if one looks at it objectively.
___________________
"There is no problem in the universe that can't be solved with a bribe, a paid assassin, or an overpowered fighter." - Chubain from Jumpgate Evolution
It would actually be 10 years and a little less since we have some in place.
It's not 200 reputations but powers. Each rep we had 5 per rep. 9 total but we had to pick which one in the first four tiers then the fifth was common to all at T5. So 2 a year is actually 18 powers per year introduced.
Sorry I was thinking they meant the clickable ones specifically.
But why the need to even introduce more reps if they feel it's a problem?
they want reps because its a fundamental part of the game. you need grinds in MMO's. if they stop doing reps, then they need to come up with other grinds to replace it. without them people play less. its a proven fact that grinds work. love them or hate them they are here to stay and every mmo uses them in some way or another. with grinds come the carrot and that is in powers and equipment but the more the experienced player becomes powerful the more problems it creates in mission difficulty, balance, pvp, new content etc.
it could be argued that by having a limit they are hurting peoples desire to play the reps. it still needs to be done because its the right thing to do under the circumstances of the game. but it does not mean that everything needs to be brought onto the same level. no one is saying that everything should be perfectly on par. there is power creep in this game and its part and parcel of a free to play game, the point is there needs to be a limit. the current rep system has no upper limit.
its like saying there should be no upper limit to rank. we need to get to level 50 and keep it there. if you increase the rank you do so carefully taking all the end game content and ships into account. if they had created a situation where you could level endlessly, very quickly we would see a problem. it needs a cap and its imposed at launch. sadly they did not have any foresight on the rep system or they would have put the cap in at the very start.
I know you think that they have no other motive for this except to solve the "power creep" but if that was truly their only reason for it, they would fix all the "power creep" in the game. That is just the term they use as a shield and the white knights are grabbing it and defending it as well.
If they have a problem that needs to be fixed, then fine. But it's obviously the reason given is not the full truth if one looks at it objectively.
Yes, and you're not looking at it objectively because you are wrapping two separate issues into one. your white knight comments proves that. im not arguing this because i feel like typing. im arguing because it, in my opinion, is right.
there are different power creeps and there are two different issues. if they release a new ship, you cant fly two at once, if they give you a new console, you have to give up a previous console. every time they release a new ship or console, someone will tell you its great and another will tell you its junk. you will never get perfect balance and some ships by what ever arbitrary measurement we use will be better than one before, but all of the new ships have the same consoles, the same number of bo slots, the same number of weapon slots. You cannot release new powers and have them all in perfect balance. its impossible because its largely situational and by opinion.
there is a slow power creep with ships and items, either by luck or design and individual items may need looking at, which they do all the time.
Right. And a new player coming in fresh can take a look at what his goals for a ship, gear and rep are and go straight for it in a bee line. He doesn't have to do everything that came before which might not net him the best result anymore.
This is not so much power creep, but power inflation.
The old stuff over time is simply not worth as much anymore and might only be situationally or thematically useful.
Or do you still craft an Aegis set these days when you level a new toon? I remember when it was an absolute must have item.
No, you skip that entirely and go for the Solanae set or buy fleet gear if you have the resources from your alts...
And then you prioritize what you need from the reputation system to complete your desired build. Any additional passives you pick up after your are initially set is a bonus IMO.
Remember the outrage when there was even "mild speculation" that a token to accelerate rep cooldowns might hit the C-store?
Well, our feedback was heeded. Reputation remains purely a time-gated system. Therefore, it now needs to be "reigned in" some to keep it accessible to "fresh mint L50s" as well as long term veterans...
However, and this decision has bean counters layered all over it - every shred of "power creep" mentioned in this thread is available to a fresh-mint L50, for the proper cash investment. Whether the desired power level comes after $2.50, $20, $299, $1000, of "proper cash investment" doesn't matter, nor does it matter if the prize is "lottery gated" as a lockbox or certain DOff out of pack X would be considered. After throwing $$$ at the "problem" a L50 who started 40 hours ago is as powerful as a pre-release Beta Veteran, in regards to lockbox, lobi, c-store, DOffs, etc. powers go.
And they are the bean counters. They don't care about "willingness", they only care about "availability". Grinding for Dil to convert, while a nice option, does not suddenly mean that they need to balance around the thousands of hours of grind to get a lot of this power match, because instant gratification (read: Cash) makes 40 hour toons as powerful as 1300 day vets, they will point out "pay and balance achieved. All other arguments are therefore rendered moot, it is the player's choice to remain underpowered through the grinding period.
Therefore, one can actually expect even more powercreep through the cash-gated systems, to drive more purchases - both from Veterans and newbies. And, they will only be nerfed when the creep reaches a point that makes the game 100% "unplayable", at which point they'll do what I consider a "creep compression" and start over again...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
to Op, Zen ships are not a problem. One of my best ships is the sovie, not the regent or the fleet sovie but the sovie you get for FREE when you make admiral. With the old omega store anti borg anti proton quatum build i manage to hold my own and even get first blood against an oddy and a Gal X. It's all in the gear and traits.
No, honestly, I do. Which is to say, like any customer in any economy around the globe, I love putting down money for something good. That's how economies work.
Then there are those who can't stand others having the good stuff. They're the ones who whine, and try and take it away from you: all in the name of 'game balance,' of course. But it's really just plain jealousy, as they themselves could have bought all the fancy stuff too, except they don't have the money.
No, honestly, I do. Which is to say, like any customer in any economy around the globe, I love putting down money for something good. That's how economies work.
Then there are those who can't stand others having the good stuff. They're the ones who whine, and try and take it away from you: all in the name of 'game balance,' of course. But it's really just plain jealousy, as they themselves could have bought all the fancy stuff too, except they don't have the money.
Direct and honest, I like your style. Pretty sure those who disagree with you may reply in kind but oh well. This is why we have bad popcorn jokes
I've not spent a penny on this game, and I have no intention to either. Why spend money on pixels when free pixels do the job just as well? It helps that I am a very picky consumer who is immune to what I name the 'ooo shiny' effect too.
That aside I do agree. End of the day if people want to spend cash on the game let them, keeps the servers live so keeps me in the game (thanks for that by the way) but it is in the interest for everyone that some sort of balance is maintained.
there are different power creeps and there are two different issues. if they release a new ship, you cant fly two at once, if they give you a new console, you have to give up a previous console. every time they release a new ship or console, someone will tell you its great and another will tell you its junk. you will never get perfect balance and some ships by what ever arbitrary measurement we use will be better than one before, but all of the new ships have the same consoles, the same number of bo slots, the same number of weapon slots. You cannot release new powers and have them all in perfect balance. its impossible because its largely situational and by opinion.
there is a slow power creep with ships and items, either by luck or design and individual items may need looking at, which they do all the time.
Picking up a shield and using the "term of the month" aka "power creep" it's white knighting. That is not a term used around here until that post then everyone is "power creep" is the reason.
A power creep actually is any content that causes unbalancing of a game. So all the times people chime in saying things on the store is "content", is it now not content? So many of the items in the store have caused balance issues so there is no way to say they are not power creeps except by Cryptic's made up definition of it apparently which is "as long as it has money attached then it's fine" at the end of the definition.
I have some store ships and I use them because they are better than the free ones.
___________________
"There is no problem in the universe that can't be solved with a bribe, a paid assassin, or an overpowered fighter." - Chubain from Jumpgate Evolution
All they want with the rep powers, is yet another way to monetize something. It has nothing to do with power creep.
Since you don't have to pay Zen to respec which Rep Traits you use at any given time, it's not something they are - for the moment - intending to monetize.
Of course, OP is right. Power Creep is caused by C-Store ships with absurdly powerful console powers, not Rep Passives.
You're just a machine. And machines can be broken.
Picking up a shield and using the "term of the month" aka "power creep" it's white knighting. That is not a term used around here until that post then everyone is "power creep" is the reason.
A power creep actually is any content that causes unbalancing of a game. So all the times people chime in saying things on the store is "content", is it now not content? So many of the items in the store have caused balance issues so there is no way to say they are not power creeps except by Cryptic's made up definition of it apparently which is "as long as it has money attached then it's fine" at the end of the definition.
I have some store ships and I use them because they are better than the free ones.
not completely, with good gear a free ship can own a zen ship.
Only people who are defending Cryptic's practices under the guise of "can't handle it" are those who couldn't handle a balanced playing field. Or Cryptic apologists.
If you destroy your fleet by taking your ball and going home, why should the next group of people trust you will lead the fleet properly? Things that make you go hmmmm.
Only people who are defending Cryptic's practices under the guise of "can't handle it" are those who couldn't handle a balanced playing field. Or Cryptic apologists.
Or both. lol Or could be gullible believing Cryptic's sole reason for the rep system change is for "power creep".
Never used a cookie cutter build because there were other ways to have more than enough power. Rep system was one of many but the only one that never required paying real money for only time. As a matter of fact, there is not a way to spend money to do the rep system that I know of. But all the pay to win versions Cryptic has no issue with. So it's gullible to believe that is their driving force behind this.
___________________
"There is no problem in the universe that can't be solved with a bribe, a paid assassin, or an overpowered fighter." - Chubain from Jumpgate Evolution
2) Cooldown reduction doffs nerfed (not just technicians btw)
3) APA reigned in
4) Fleet holdings not released with er not released anymore actually
5) -DR reigned in
All signs point to no. To be honest the cynical side of me things this entire reputation trait revamp was mostly motivated to give them another 'carrot' to add to the new fleet holding in the form of +1 trait slots even though I don't even know if those will exist.
The rest of the cooldown reduction doffs are chance based. There have been plenty of times I've been stuck with abilities on their normal cooldown because of this. They don't need a nerf. Technicians on the other hand just proc 100% of the time. You nerf the sci based cooldown reduction doffs and sci abilities can't keep up with tactical ones.
About the leech console, it was nerfed once because it had no limit to the leech stacking. In it's current state, most players get +16 power to all subsystems. Players that get more than that usually specialize in drain builds which starts lowering DPS down significantly.
If they can make it pay to win, Cryptic won't bother it. Nothing new there. But they should at least have the grapefruits to tell the truth and not hide behind their cryptic messages and lies.
If you destroy your fleet by taking your ball and going home, why should the next group of people trust you will lead the fleet properly? Things that make you go hmmmm.
If they want more of my money then they should come clean.
If you destroy your fleet by taking your ball and going home, why should the next group of people trust you will lead the fleet properly? Things that make you go hmmmm.
that have many more then just one person giving them money unless you putting in 100k or more a month you are one fish in a midsize ocean
I see with your signature you can't wait for Arc to come too. That also shows they can do no wrong in your eyes.
If you destroy your fleet by taking your ball and going home, why should the next group of people trust you will lead the fleet properly? Things that make you go hmmmm.
Comments
The reason they change the rep system is, that they like to keep adding reps which just would make players more and more powerful without any kind of limit. So give it another couple of years with 3-4 new reps per year and the problem just becomes wors and worse.
So everyone can now choose to grind them all out and pick 4 out of twice as many passives as before or limit the grind and be locked into limitd build options.
I like the revamp.
The change should have come sooner, or ideally it should have been like this from the start. But better now than never.
Cryptic can still offer their store items and lobi goodies, and trait passives/doffs and other such stuff can still exist too.
If all of them just worked under the idea that the more of any of them you have, the lesser the bonus you receive, everything would be better off as a result in my eyes.
and what about a lifer who bought their LTS at the start of the game (4 years ago) at a price where it would take 16 months to get it back, does not buy zen anymore, and either sells their stipend on the exchange, or uses it for themselves... is it technically pay to win anymore if they are using free money to get stuff?
It would actually be 10 years and a little less since we have some in place.
It's not 200 reputations but powers. Each rep we had 5 per rep. 9 total but we had to pick which one in the first four tiers then the fifth was common to all at T5. So 2 a year is actually 18 powers per year introduced.
But why the need to even introduce more reps if they feel it's a problem?
I know you think that they have no other motive for this except to solve the "power creep" but if that was truly their only reason for it, they would fix all the "power creep" in the game. That is just the term they use as a shield and the white knights are grabbing it and defending it as well.
If they have a problem that needs to be fixed, then fine. But it's obviously the reason given is not the full truth if one looks at it objectively.
"There is no problem in the universe that can't be solved with a bribe, a paid assassin, or an overpowered fighter." - Chubain from Jumpgate Evolution
Sorry I was thinking they meant the clickable ones specifically.
they want reps because its a fundamental part of the game. you need grinds in MMO's. if they stop doing reps, then they need to come up with other grinds to replace it. without them people play less. its a proven fact that grinds work. love them or hate them they are here to stay and every mmo uses them in some way or another. with grinds come the carrot and that is in powers and equipment but the more the experienced player becomes powerful the more problems it creates in mission difficulty, balance, pvp, new content etc.
it could be argued that by having a limit they are hurting peoples desire to play the reps. it still needs to be done because its the right thing to do under the circumstances of the game. but it does not mean that everything needs to be brought onto the same level. no one is saying that everything should be perfectly on par. there is power creep in this game and its part and parcel of a free to play game, the point is there needs to be a limit. the current rep system has no upper limit.
its like saying there should be no upper limit to rank. we need to get to level 50 and keep it there. if you increase the rank you do so carefully taking all the end game content and ships into account. if they had created a situation where you could level endlessly, very quickly we would see a problem. it needs a cap and its imposed at launch. sadly they did not have any foresight on the rep system or they would have put the cap in at the very start.
Yes, and you're not looking at it objectively because you are wrapping two separate issues into one. your white knight comments proves that. im not arguing this because i feel like typing. im arguing because it, in my opinion, is right.
there are different power creeps and there are two different issues. if they release a new ship, you cant fly two at once, if they give you a new console, you have to give up a previous console. every time they release a new ship or console, someone will tell you its great and another will tell you its junk. you will never get perfect balance and some ships by what ever arbitrary measurement we use will be better than one before, but all of the new ships have the same consoles, the same number of bo slots, the same number of weapon slots. You cannot release new powers and have them all in perfect balance. its impossible because its largely situational and by opinion.
there is a slow power creep with ships and items, either by luck or design and individual items may need looking at, which they do all the time.
This is not so much power creep, but power inflation.
The old stuff over time is simply not worth as much anymore and might only be situationally or thematically useful.
Or do you still craft an Aegis set these days when you level a new toon? I remember when it was an absolute must have item.
No, you skip that entirely and go for the Solanae set or buy fleet gear if you have the resources from your alts...
And then you prioritize what you need from the reputation system to complete your desired build. Any additional passives you pick up after your are initially set is a bonus IMO.
Well, our feedback was heeded. Reputation remains purely a time-gated system. Therefore, it now needs to be "reigned in" some to keep it accessible to "fresh mint L50s" as well as long term veterans...
However, and this decision has bean counters layered all over it - every shred of "power creep" mentioned in this thread is available to a fresh-mint L50, for the proper cash investment. Whether the desired power level comes after $2.50, $20, $299, $1000, of "proper cash investment" doesn't matter, nor does it matter if the prize is "lottery gated" as a lockbox or certain DOff out of pack X would be considered. After throwing $$$ at the "problem" a L50 who started 40 hours ago is as powerful as a pre-release Beta Veteran, in regards to lockbox, lobi, c-store, DOffs, etc. powers go.
And they are the bean counters. They don't care about "willingness", they only care about "availability". Grinding for Dil to convert, while a nice option, does not suddenly mean that they need to balance around the thousands of hours of grind to get a lot of this power match, because instant gratification (read: Cash) makes 40 hour toons as powerful as 1300 day vets, they will point out "pay and balance achieved. All other arguments are therefore rendered moot, it is the player's choice to remain underpowered through the grinding period.
Therefore, one can actually expect even more powercreep through the cash-gated systems, to drive more purchases - both from Veterans and newbies. And, they will only be nerfed when the creep reaches a point that makes the game 100% "unplayable", at which point they'll do what I consider a "creep compression" and start over again...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
They're doing what they can about power creep without going bankrupt.
Helpful Tools: Dictionary.com - Logical fallacies - Random generator - Word generator - Color tool - Extra Credits - List of common English language errors - New T6 Big booty tutorial
No, honestly, I do. Which is to say, like any customer in any economy around the globe, I love putting down money for something good. That's how economies work.
Then there are those who can't stand others having the good stuff. They're the ones who whine, and try and take it away from you: all in the name of 'game balance,' of course. But it's really just plain jealousy, as they themselves could have bought all the fancy stuff too, except they don't have the money.
Direct and honest, I like your style. Pretty sure those who disagree with you may reply in kind but oh well. This is why we have bad popcorn jokes
I've not spent a penny on this game, and I have no intention to either. Why spend money on pixels when free pixels do the job just as well? It helps that I am a very picky consumer who is immune to what I name the 'ooo shiny' effect too.
That aside I do agree. End of the day if people want to spend cash on the game let them, keeps the servers live so keeps me in the game (thanks for that by the way) but it is in the interest for everyone that some sort of balance is maintained.
Picking up a shield and using the "term of the month" aka "power creep" it's white knighting. That is not a term used around here until that post then everyone is "power creep" is the reason.
A power creep actually is any content that causes unbalancing of a game. So all the times people chime in saying things on the store is "content", is it now not content? So many of the items in the store have caused balance issues so there is no way to say they are not power creeps except by Cryptic's made up definition of it apparently which is "as long as it has money attached then it's fine" at the end of the definition.
I have some store ships and I use them because they are better than the free ones.
"There is no problem in the universe that can't be solved with a bribe, a paid assassin, or an overpowered fighter." - Chubain from Jumpgate Evolution
Since you don't have to pay Zen to respec which Rep Traits you use at any given time, it's not something they are - for the moment - intending to monetize.
Of course, OP is right. Power Creep is caused by C-Store ships with absurdly powerful console powers, not Rep Passives.
not completely, with good gear a free ship can own a zen ship.
You are speaking of a new VA vs. Vet VA.
And sadly you are in error.
Fairly early on in the threadnought following dev blog 5 this was the exact scenario Hawk said they were trying to address.
Cryptic have explicitly stated that reducing the gap between new VA and vet VA is the aim.
My character Tsin'xing
So, what's your point?
Captainrevo seems to Labour under the assumption that the gap between new VA and vet VA was not the point of the exercise.
Hawk has explicitly stated it is.
However the good captain can be forgiven, as the proposed rep change actually increases that gap.
That is not to say that the rep system can stay untouched, far from it.
But unless it's the first salvo in a concerted effort to tackle power creep, it's an utter fail.
Same gear they don't. That's like stacking the deck saying good gear as if that's gear the other won't have as well.
"There is no problem in the universe that can't be solved with a bribe, a paid assassin, or an overpowered fighter." - Chubain from Jumpgate Evolution
system Lord Baal is dead
Or both. lol Or could be gullible believing Cryptic's sole reason for the rep system change is for "power creep".
Never used a cookie cutter build because there were other ways to have more than enough power. Rep system was one of many but the only one that never required paying real money for only time. As a matter of fact, there is not a way to spend money to do the rep system that I know of. But all the pay to win versions Cryptic has no issue with. So it's gullible to believe that is their driving force behind this.
"There is no problem in the universe that can't be solved with a bribe, a paid assassin, or an overpowered fighter." - Chubain from Jumpgate Evolution
system Lord Baal is dead
The rest of the cooldown reduction doffs are chance based. There have been plenty of times I've been stuck with abilities on their normal cooldown because of this. They don't need a nerf. Technicians on the other hand just proc 100% of the time. You nerf the sci based cooldown reduction doffs and sci abilities can't keep up with tactical ones.
About the leech console, it was nerfed once because it had no limit to the leech stacking. In it's current state, most players get +16 power to all subsystems. Players that get more than that usually specialize in drain builds which starts lowering DPS down significantly.
system Lord Baal is dead
If they want more of my money then they should come clean.
that have many more then just one person giving them money unless you putting in 100k or more a month you are one fish in a midsize ocean
system Lord Baal is dead
I see with your signature you can't wait for Arc to come too. That also shows they can do no wrong in your eyes.
you have me so wrong its not even funny how wrong you are
system Lord Baal is dead