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AP vs. Polaron for PvP
rck01
Member Posts: 808 Arc User
Those who know me from Ker'rat, et al, will recall that I use Polaron beams almost exclusively. This is mostly out of habit - I began with Polaron weapons back in my early PvE days and simply stuck with them as I moved over to PvP.
Right now, I'm sporting Mark 12 VR Acc x3 beams on my Hirogen Hunter and I'm generally happy with how they perform. However, I'm always on the lookout for ways to improve my build. Lately I have been considering a switch to Antiproton beams as a possible upgrade over my trusty Pols due to the former's higher CritD potential.
But before I go grinding out Dil, EC and/or Fleet marks, I'd like some feedback on the following:
1. In PvP circles, Polaron weapons are relatively uncommon. Everyone who's anyone runs either AP or disruptors. This gives me an edge since these same players also typically equip Res B fleet shields, which proc against AP/Dis/Pla (i.e. the weapons used by the majority of their opponents), but not Polaron. I sometimes wonder if a great deal of my (arguably limited) success in PvP has to do with my choice of an uncommon (and thus poorly defended against) energy type.
2. Assuming 1 above is true, will moving to AP take away this perceived edge? Will switching from an energy type that bypasses the proc function of the most common shield in PvP diminish my offensive output? Or will the added CritD effect of AP provide enough of a pure damage boost vs. Polaron that the suddenly applicable Res B shield proc won't matter?
Note that I already have the necessary AP Fleet Locator consoles to fully outfit my ship, and that I tried them with a set of Fleet AP DHCs/Turrets (all Acc x2/Dmg x2) but found the "spike" to be rather underwhelming. Hence my concern about the energy type switch having a negative impact on my damage output. I can't help but wonder how a set of Polaron DHCs would have fared. However, i can only grind in so many directions at once, so...
3. If I do go the AP route, should I grab the Acc x3 Voth beams from the Exchange (a 50-70m ec grind at current prices)? Or go for the Acc x2/Dmg x2 fleet beams (a much less demanding grind but one that takes longer due to the dil requirement)?
Bottom Line: I want to improve my offensive output, but not at the cost of losing a potential edge from the uncommon Polaron energy type. I need to know that it will be worth it before I go grinding away ad infinitum.
Thoughts? Advice? Anecdotes?
RCK
Right now, I'm sporting Mark 12 VR Acc x3 beams on my Hirogen Hunter and I'm generally happy with how they perform. However, I'm always on the lookout for ways to improve my build. Lately I have been considering a switch to Antiproton beams as a possible upgrade over my trusty Pols due to the former's higher CritD potential.
But before I go grinding out Dil, EC and/or Fleet marks, I'd like some feedback on the following:
1. In PvP circles, Polaron weapons are relatively uncommon. Everyone who's anyone runs either AP or disruptors. This gives me an edge since these same players also typically equip Res B fleet shields, which proc against AP/Dis/Pla (i.e. the weapons used by the majority of their opponents), but not Polaron. I sometimes wonder if a great deal of my (arguably limited) success in PvP has to do with my choice of an uncommon (and thus poorly defended against) energy type.
2. Assuming 1 above is true, will moving to AP take away this perceived edge? Will switching from an energy type that bypasses the proc function of the most common shield in PvP diminish my offensive output? Or will the added CritD effect of AP provide enough of a pure damage boost vs. Polaron that the suddenly applicable Res B shield proc won't matter?
Note that I already have the necessary AP Fleet Locator consoles to fully outfit my ship, and that I tried them with a set of Fleet AP DHCs/Turrets (all Acc x2/Dmg x2) but found the "spike" to be rather underwhelming. Hence my concern about the energy type switch having a negative impact on my damage output. I can't help but wonder how a set of Polaron DHCs would have fared. However, i can only grind in so many directions at once, so...
3. If I do go the AP route, should I grab the Acc x3 Voth beams from the Exchange (a 50-70m ec grind at current prices)? Or go for the Acc x2/Dmg x2 fleet beams (a much less demanding grind but one that takes longer due to the dil requirement)?
Bottom Line: I want to improve my offensive output, but not at the cost of losing a potential edge from the uncommon Polaron energy type. I need to know that it will be worth it before I go grinding away ad infinitum.
Thoughts? Advice? Anecdotes?
RCK
Post edited by rck01 on
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Comments
AP is nice for the extra CrtD but it's really popular, as you said.
I actually recommend both and here's why. Just like you said, lots of people run ResB weapons, so they mostly all have ResB shields. So what I do is have 2 setups on my ship. One with resA weapons and one with ResB, then I switch shields to what I need. This lets me play the rock, paper, scissors, game with resistance/damage so I can, at least try, to be resistant to their weapons while bypassing their resistance. It doesn't always work, but it can help.
If you can count on your entire team, which you obviously don't have in Kerrat, to run the same weapon type then the force multipliers are generally going to be better (Polaron, Disruptor, Phaser, etc).
If you have a Dominion ship, polarons are good if you also equip the Jem'Hadar set.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqEj142R71cpdHhQb0ZnQjV4bFNHUEJ4VDZqcHpScEE&usp=sharing
One CrtD mod really doesn't effect dmg as much as some people think it does.
I also don't run fleet weapons as I find [acc]x2 [dmg]x2 to be undesirable.
Actual dmg on a target is the same out of any weapon type you choose.
I have toons that use just about everything... but in general I like polaron tetryon and phaser... all have half decent procs, they fall into resa which tends to be what people shield against less often. I honestly often run Tetryon as its rare anyone I switch to has a prestack of resistance against it.
I think energy type is quite irrelevant. Most PvPers have both Res A and B Elite Fleet Shields. I imagine if a group of HOBO wants to ambush you, they will switch to Res A while cloaked.
To be honest, Polaron proc is quite useless in my opinion, especially on a Tact / Escort. The maximum you are willing to invest is 99 points into FC. In the odd chance that your 2.5% proc, it will last 5 seconds minus all the resist from power insulation. I can't recall any instance where your proc had any substantial effect. The effect was likely so small and short, it essentially had no practical use. Polaron is popular with some people who use Dominion / Jem Hadar ships because their Mk XII set bonus adds about 15% to Polaron damage. Because you use Borg set, you don't get any bonus Polaron damage.
AP is popular but it also has obvious counters. For example, this very popular Dyson shield has extra resist against AP : http://sto.gamepedia.com/Dyson_Joint_Command_Technologies#Dyson_Regenerative_Shield_Array
People who use Proton Barrage most certainly use this shield.
Voth AP proc is not useful. Reducing damage output by 9.1% for 10 sec is not going to do much of a dent to your target's damage output. Voth AP proc is simply not worth the trouble except it's the only AP weapons with the possibility of having Acc X 3 whereas the regular AP weapons do not have Acc X 3. It would seem, the only realistic option here is the Fleet Beam if you go with AP.
Any Acc X 3 beam is good for PvP. For Tact/Escort with limited FC skills, I would stay away from Polaron and Tetryon because you don't have enough drain to make them worthwhile. Regular AP may be more useful overall but they don't have Acc X 3. Maybe Disruptor would be more suitable for your purpose overall.
Sir/Ma'am you have brought a smile to my face seeing this!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Overall your other suggestions are not bad.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
No...you got your facts wrong. First of all, defense value can only be affected if your overall speed is below 24. Whenver your speed is > 24, defense value is not affected. In other words, you don't gain any additional defense because your speed went from 100 to 200. Conversely, if your speed drops from 80 to 60, no effect on defense value either.
The effect on weapon/shield and aux are minimal - read unnoticeable. You are making those assumptions without understanding your potential opponents. RCK used to slash me with 7 Polaron beams (Acc X 3) + KCB with his cruiser + FAW, I can frankly tell you his polaron proc had no effect. The reason why your assumptions fall apart is because you are forgetting about power overcap. Shield damage resist is capped at 75% from multiple sources. Assuming the slight power loss has any real effect, the way the various multipliers are factored, the impact on shield dmg resist may not be noticeable at all. As for effect on shield regeneration rate, -10 shield power for 5 seconds will hardly make any real dent into actual shield regeneration.
Finally, reduction of weapon power output is calculated off base damage, therefore, your example was overstating its impact.
You can theorize all you want. I had enough actual experience dealing with Polaron that I know from experience it had no discernible impact on those who know what they are doing. Conversely, you can use any energy type and anyone who don't know what they are doing will die.
As far as comparing it in terms of raw numbers to other weapon types, it comes out right up there with options like disruptors.
Polarons are highly underrated.
Yes and while flying around at a speed of 24 normally is correct, but when a polaron proc knocks a few point out of the eng subsystem it will lower your 24 to something smaller giving you a small defense penalty.
Small as any of this may seem to you, in the grand scheme of things it does add up in overall performance as any parser could show that.
Granted you can more easily counter it with skills whether it be your own captain or boff's or both, but in reality it does affect you during the time frame for which it remains active.
Now if they followed up with subsystem targeting, and energy siphon along with a tyken's rift plus viral matrix and tractor you along with a tachyon beam with all related doff's for all these skills to relieve you of any chance of escape, you will be heavily pressure into relying on boff skills for escape, in which case a vaper can come in for the eradication he/she has been waiting for.
A single opponent using polaron weapons may not seem like a threat, but when used to aid a well formed team can provide them with dire consequences for you.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
One CrtD is no big deal honestly.
The only real AP option is [acc]x2 [dmg]x2
Where as polaron you can run [acc]x2 [crtd] at that point the only difference is [dmg]x2 that is how much more dmg it does.
However it allows you to run [acc]x3 turrets and pick up extra dmg there over [acc]x2 ap.... OR running Phased polaron [acc]x2 gaining a second phaser proc.
With polaron you also have the option to go [acc] [crtd]x 2 or [acc] [crth]x2 which I prefer for DHC myself.
The thing with CrtD if we strip it down,
If you have a 1000 dmg hit... with a crit it would be 1500. With on crtd it would be 1600. (100 dmg isn't really a big deal)
Assuming you are hitting a 25% crit rate and land 20 hits one Crtd is only really amounting to 2-4% extra dmg tops. Frankly there is no way I would choose to drop a proc chance completely for 2-4%... then factor in being able to stack better or more strategic mod mix options... its why I don't run AP.
You do realize even EPTE 1 gives +40 speed on its own right? I guess not because if you do, you realize, it's virtually impossible to knock any pvper below 24 in terms of speed. Given that EPTE is a frequently cycled skill - read 100% uptime, the probability that you can knock any PvPer below 24 in terms of speed is extremely low, you will have to either disable their engines outright or held them in a tractor beam, both of which are independent of the Polaron proc. What you are suggesting is simply not realistic. PvPers, 99% of them, carry a ton of speed, even the so called fat cruisers. If I have to make a guess, vast majority of them have EPTE, APO and/or A2D, all of which will provide more than substantial speed burst to ignore any tiny speed reduction. I know, because my sub targeting engine can easily knock off 55+ to engines, in theory, far more than any Escort/Tact's Polaron proc yet it is rare that such attack could affect the target significantly in PvP.
Good, show us the parse. I am calling your bluff right here. And no, I am not going take your words for it. They proc at 2.5% chance. To be hit with more than one proc at the same time, the chance is a lot less than 1%. Lucho80 had a nice chart showing the effect of Polaron proc based on FC skill. If my memory is correct, Polaron Proc at FC =99 = -25 power to all 4 subsystem prior to PI resists. Assuming a 50% reduction due to PI, we are talking about -12 power all 4 subsystems for merely 5 sec. The effect is simply not material, it's a nuisance at best.
Yes, for a grand total of 5 seconds. Considering RCK stated he has no trouble surviving a total Aux disable for 10-15 seconds, I doubt losing -12 power to each subsystem is going to have much of a material effect.
sigh...your scenario is a fiction. First of all, polaron proc has no visual and is unpredictable. You have no way to tell when your Polaron actually proc and therefore, cannot take advantage of such proc because you have no way of telling when and if it happens at all. As a result, you can't possibly follow up with a timely subsystem targeting. I know, I am a Sci specialist, in case you haven't figured it out by now. Sadly, all the debuffs you describe above can now be easily countered within 1 second. To counter your multiple debuffs described above, your target only need to hit HE + ET. ET repairs subsystem disable / targets and VM while HE clears Energy Siphon and Tykens. As for the tractor and Tachyon Beam, all it takes is hit EM and move outside of the Tachyon's 135 degree firing arc. Better still, if your target has Keel'el, merely hitting any EPTX, say EPTE will clear all of the above + the speed to get out of the jam. Your fiction described depends on all stars line up perfectly, not to say it can't happen but it requires such perfect timing and the target to be an idiot to let your described scenario to have a remote chance of even working. And it requires a vaper in waiting, imagine that. Well, your vaper can easily be scared away or kill himself with a timely FBP III activation while EPTS + Keel'el removing all the gazillion debuffs described above. 2 key strokes, vaper gone and all your debuffs removed. As for Polaron? Just ignore it because it's gone within the blink of an eye.
The same can be said just about any energy type within any premade.
that being said....for raw damage...those fleet AP are hard to beat if you are not kdf and can get the fleet dis.
have fun kill bad guys
Heh, gets into planetary alignments. AP's always AP, while the others may or may not be what they are. I once fell asleep waiting on a Disruptor proc from 8 beams for some testing...
...heh, which is why I open Lockboxes for Lobi and not ships. That's the kind of luck I have.
My path of least resistance seems to be the Fleet APs (2x Acc, 2x Dmg). Will take some Dil grinding over a week or so (damned 8K refinement cap!), but I'll get there eventually. Since accuracy overflow doesn't work for BFAW anyway, the drop from Acc x3 Polarons probably won't be noticeable.
Well, off to the ESTF queues to collect Dil and BNPs...thanks, everyone, for commenting.
RCK
Throw in a few embassy plasma consoles and you end up with 3 procs.
the bonus given by the jem'hadar space seems good but on my jhas it (mk xii space set) add only a +2-3% base damage... The mk xii set is a waste of lobi crystal
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
You are so full of it, yes you can spot a polaron proc, simply look at the list of buffs/debuffs applied to said target (D-uh) heck pay enough attention it even has an animation when it triggers (guess you are blind), and not 99% of all pvp player's use EP2E because if they did I wouldn't get the results I do. Also yes all of the sci skills can be cleared easily, but not if they are a constant timely barrage, or we could doff you with a nice timer increase thanks to a specific doff.
As for AP it really isn't all that much better, simply due to the fact you need crit, and even when you do crit the extra crit severity isn't a major increase over what other weapons critd can get.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
What about fleet versions of both the weapons and consoles.
So...in an era of fleet elite shields and their stacking resists it becomes a game of deliberately mis-matching weapon type to proc-type in an effort to gain the upper hand. Then everyone cloaks and switches-up their configurations, and we start all over again.
Of course, a potential wildcard is shield penetration: If you're running DEM, Elachi weapons or one of those BO doffs, you can bypass their shields entirely and score some damage.
In the end I might be better served simply by adding DEM back into my buff cycle - or adding a BO doff to my AP cannons/DBB build (or both - see related thread in this forum).
And they say chess matches are hard to follow...
RCK