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Torpedoes not viable IN STAR TREK
hoshino1
Member Posts: 56 Arc User
My main problem: Torpedoes don't work in pvp... IN STAR TREK!!!
Suggestions to fix are at the bottom of the post.
Seriously, I like Star Trek, and I want to pvp, but this is a deal breaker. I payed this company money, and now I am not anymore BECAUSE OF THIS PROBLEM. I am not going to work around it anymore by continuing to developing ship builds that don't involve torpedoes IN STAR TREK. That is just stupid. I quit a while back. I just wanted to point out what is in my opinion a major game flaw. I would be happy to come back if it got fixed.
Explanation:
In pvp, everyone is running these buffs like "emergency power to engines" just to name an example, but there are many. They can keep these buffs up pretty much ALL THE TIME, and it makes their ship so fast that if you fire a torpedo at them, they will litterally outrun the torpedo!
The torpedo only follows for a certain amount of time before it vanishes. If that happens, it never got to the target.
The reason it vanishes is because of a programming developmental reason: in the event of a glitch, you could theoretically have too many torpedoes on screen at once. The game would be trying to keep track of too many things, and could exceed your max memory available causing the game to crash. The amount of time a torpedo lasts is surprisingly short though.
Now, I have NO problem with it if you fire a torpedo at an enemy player, and they have a shield up, or the torpedo gets to them, checks their defense, and decides it misses. I have no problem if they are cloaked, or if they have some kind of point-defense system that shoots the torpedo down or whatever.
I have a MAJOR problem with it when everyone is constantly driving their ships around so fast that torpedoes become an unviable weapon choice in pvp all together IN STAR TREK!!!
TORPEDOES ARE NOT VIABLE WEAPONS IN PVP IN... STAR TREK!!! This is not ok.
As a result, everyone in pvp uses energy weapons because their projectiles are fast enough to actually get to the target.
In my opinion, this is kind of like if a new Call of Duty, or Battlefield game came out, and the machine gun is unvaible as a weapon choice in pvp. Perhaps if you are playing another MMO, and as a mage / archer, you throw a fireball / arrow at an enemy player, and they literally just run rings around your fireball / arrow while shooting you till it disappears, and there is almost no limit to how much they can do that with nothing you can do to stop them?
You can't have TORPEDOS not be a viable weapon choice in pvp especially... IN STAR TREK!!! Phasers and torpedoes are staple weapons. Your Star Trek game is not complete without them. It makes the game less fun and less... "Star Trek-y." It ruins the feel.
Something I have noticed:
I run all the speed buffs constantly too. I am fully aware of how completely immune to torepedoes it makes me, and I abuse and exploit the heck out of it all the time just like everyone else does, but I am still pointing it out because THIS IS ABSURD, and I shouldn't be able to do it!
When I fire a torpedo, the torpedo comes out of my torpedo tube, and then since torpedoes travel at a preset speed determined by the game, the torpedo literally slows down, and I outrun my torpedo, pass my target, and then the torpedo MIGHT hit them several seconds later assuming it managed to get there at all, if they were going slow or were stopped for some reason.
Do you realize, I would have been better off if I got in my environmental suit... went out onto the nose of my ship, and super-glued the torpedo to the front of my ship, and then used my ramming speed ability to "melee" the enemy target with my ship, slamming the torpedo into them myself physically?! At least that way the torpedo would be going AT LEAST as fast as I do!
If a torpedo goes X kilometers per second, and my ship is going 3 kilometers per second, and I fire the torpedo out of my torpedo tube, shouldn't the torpedo be going X+3 kilometers per second?
Counters?
Now some people would say, "You need to use abilities to slow down your enemy like tractor beams, viral matrix, etc." The problem is that those abilities don't work in pvp very well because any player who knows what they are doing, notices what is wrong, presses 1 button, and has an instant countermeasure to any movement debilitating effect.
Yes, there are moves that slow people down. No, they don't work if the other player even remotely knows what they are doing, so once again, we are back to where we started. Believe me. I have tried. People counter my slows. People have also tried to use those moves on me. None of them work on me either. I know how to counter all of them instantly if I wasn't already immune to them because of the buffs that I can have up pretty much ALL THE TIME.
Suggestions:
So what would I suggest? Here are some ways to fix this. We don't have to implement all of them. Just 1 might do the trick. If you don't want to implement them across the board, then just make them true in pvp.
1. Change the default speed, and MAYBE the turn rate of torpedoes in star trek or just in pvp to be faster than the max speed a ship can travel.
(Don't tell me this is SO hard, and development takes months. I know programming. This would require changing 1 variable!!! If development is so hard and takes so long, why is it that developers can fix exploits that benefit players in 2 weeks, but when it comes to fixing something the makes it hard for players it takes months? Bug that makes you able to beat major boss solo causing lots of loot to be handed out? Fixed within 2 weeks. Alternatively, bug that makes an ability not work or a boss too hard? Might get fixed 2 months from now if you are lucky. Maybe not fixed at all. How about a new content release from korea in other games? 6 months to translate it. New episode of Bleach comes out? Translated and up on the internet in less than 72 hours. No, they don't have to do any other major thing other than translate it to give it to you. Korean computers run Windows just like we do. Don't let them hand you BS about how hard and complicated it is.)
2. Increase how long a torpedo will chase it's target to 5-10 minutes before the torpedo vanishes.
3. Increase the cooldown on all moves that increase ship speed.
4. Decrease durration of all abilities that increase ship speed.
5. Remove the increased ship speed aspect of the buff from several buffs in the game.
6. Have abilities that prevent or slow enemy ship movement not be able to be countered so easily. Right now, people can simply pop a buff that increases their speed even more, counters the movement debuff, knocks you away thus ending your tractor beam effect because you are too far away, or makes them immune to the movement debuff all together.
Suggestions to fix are at the bottom of the post.
Seriously, I like Star Trek, and I want to pvp, but this is a deal breaker. I payed this company money, and now I am not anymore BECAUSE OF THIS PROBLEM. I am not going to work around it anymore by continuing to developing ship builds that don't involve torpedoes IN STAR TREK. That is just stupid. I quit a while back. I just wanted to point out what is in my opinion a major game flaw. I would be happy to come back if it got fixed.
Explanation:
In pvp, everyone is running these buffs like "emergency power to engines" just to name an example, but there are many. They can keep these buffs up pretty much ALL THE TIME, and it makes their ship so fast that if you fire a torpedo at them, they will litterally outrun the torpedo!
The torpedo only follows for a certain amount of time before it vanishes. If that happens, it never got to the target.
The reason it vanishes is because of a programming developmental reason: in the event of a glitch, you could theoretically have too many torpedoes on screen at once. The game would be trying to keep track of too many things, and could exceed your max memory available causing the game to crash. The amount of time a torpedo lasts is surprisingly short though.
Now, I have NO problem with it if you fire a torpedo at an enemy player, and they have a shield up, or the torpedo gets to them, checks their defense, and decides it misses. I have no problem if they are cloaked, or if they have some kind of point-defense system that shoots the torpedo down or whatever.
I have a MAJOR problem with it when everyone is constantly driving their ships around so fast that torpedoes become an unviable weapon choice in pvp all together IN STAR TREK!!!
TORPEDOES ARE NOT VIABLE WEAPONS IN PVP IN... STAR TREK!!! This is not ok.
As a result, everyone in pvp uses energy weapons because their projectiles are fast enough to actually get to the target.
In my opinion, this is kind of like if a new Call of Duty, or Battlefield game came out, and the machine gun is unvaible as a weapon choice in pvp. Perhaps if you are playing another MMO, and as a mage / archer, you throw a fireball / arrow at an enemy player, and they literally just run rings around your fireball / arrow while shooting you till it disappears, and there is almost no limit to how much they can do that with nothing you can do to stop them?
You can't have TORPEDOS not be a viable weapon choice in pvp especially... IN STAR TREK!!! Phasers and torpedoes are staple weapons. Your Star Trek game is not complete without them. It makes the game less fun and less... "Star Trek-y." It ruins the feel.
Something I have noticed:
I run all the speed buffs constantly too. I am fully aware of how completely immune to torepedoes it makes me, and I abuse and exploit the heck out of it all the time just like everyone else does, but I am still pointing it out because THIS IS ABSURD, and I shouldn't be able to do it!
When I fire a torpedo, the torpedo comes out of my torpedo tube, and then since torpedoes travel at a preset speed determined by the game, the torpedo literally slows down, and I outrun my torpedo, pass my target, and then the torpedo MIGHT hit them several seconds later assuming it managed to get there at all, if they were going slow or were stopped for some reason.
Do you realize, I would have been better off if I got in my environmental suit... went out onto the nose of my ship, and super-glued the torpedo to the front of my ship, and then used my ramming speed ability to "melee" the enemy target with my ship, slamming the torpedo into them myself physically?! At least that way the torpedo would be going AT LEAST as fast as I do!
If a torpedo goes X kilometers per second, and my ship is going 3 kilometers per second, and I fire the torpedo out of my torpedo tube, shouldn't the torpedo be going X+3 kilometers per second?
Counters?
Now some people would say, "You need to use abilities to slow down your enemy like tractor beams, viral matrix, etc." The problem is that those abilities don't work in pvp very well because any player who knows what they are doing, notices what is wrong, presses 1 button, and has an instant countermeasure to any movement debilitating effect.
Yes, there are moves that slow people down. No, they don't work if the other player even remotely knows what they are doing, so once again, we are back to where we started. Believe me. I have tried. People counter my slows. People have also tried to use those moves on me. None of them work on me either. I know how to counter all of them instantly if I wasn't already immune to them because of the buffs that I can have up pretty much ALL THE TIME.
Suggestions:
So what would I suggest? Here are some ways to fix this. We don't have to implement all of them. Just 1 might do the trick. If you don't want to implement them across the board, then just make them true in pvp.
1. Change the default speed, and MAYBE the turn rate of torpedoes in star trek or just in pvp to be faster than the max speed a ship can travel.
(Don't tell me this is SO hard, and development takes months. I know programming. This would require changing 1 variable!!! If development is so hard and takes so long, why is it that developers can fix exploits that benefit players in 2 weeks, but when it comes to fixing something the makes it hard for players it takes months? Bug that makes you able to beat major boss solo causing lots of loot to be handed out? Fixed within 2 weeks. Alternatively, bug that makes an ability not work or a boss too hard? Might get fixed 2 months from now if you are lucky. Maybe not fixed at all. How about a new content release from korea in other games? 6 months to translate it. New episode of Bleach comes out? Translated and up on the internet in less than 72 hours. No, they don't have to do any other major thing other than translate it to give it to you. Korean computers run Windows just like we do. Don't let them hand you BS about how hard and complicated it is.)
2. Increase how long a torpedo will chase it's target to 5-10 minutes before the torpedo vanishes.
3. Increase the cooldown on all moves that increase ship speed.
4. Decrease durration of all abilities that increase ship speed.
5. Remove the increased ship speed aspect of the buff from several buffs in the game.
6. Have abilities that prevent or slow enemy ship movement not be able to be countered so easily. Right now, people can simply pop a buff that increases their speed even more, counters the movement debuff, knocks you away thus ending your tractor beam effect because you are too far away, or makes them immune to the movement debuff all together.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
Yep, it's even kind of funny with Intimidating Strikes - cause the debuff will oft appear on the target before your torps even appear on your screen...the to-hit roll's already been made.
Uh, no. I've seen BoP's decloak, fire their alpha strike, boost out and recloak, and outrun any and all projectiles fired at them. And that was just after the free to play patch went through. Nowadays, there are speed and defense buffs attached to nearly every power. This fact alone should warrant a close look by the devs at exactly what the pvp arena is turning into.
Even if a bop cloaks or outruns said torpedo the torpedo (if it rolls a hit) WILL hit however you will not see a damage indication on the player if a/he is cloaked. More than likely hull regen will heal the individual by the time you see him next.
the problem is the 75% built in knetic resist all shields have, and everything that makes holes in shields for longer then it takes to complete a DHC cycle an impossibility.
What this guy said.
- Torp Spread doesn't miss so use TS
- Transphasic doesn't really care to much about shields so run that.
- Only way you will kill anyone is with a breen cluster which will be hard to land with all the faw.
Have fun... but if your doing serious PvP right now just leave the torps off. Not because of there silly graphic quirks, for the reason DDIS states shielding makes them pointless accept phasics which are very low dmg. They only work if you go full bore torp boat running 4 Phasic dmg consoles ect.
Tell that to Thisser and his vapy Quantums. Also Hargh'Peng Torpedoes are often underrated. I've seen the secondary explosion hit for as high as 15,000 damage. Yes, it's 15 seconds for a delay, but I've used it to pop unsuspecting heal boats a few times.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Torps on a vaper are secondary... doesnt' sound to me like to OP is playing vaper.
I have to say I do agree with the OP in some respects. Emergency Power to Engines has really messed up the ability for players to use Torpedoes and Mines effectively. That and Attack Pattern Omega + Auxiliary to Inertial Dampeners/Battery chaining makes it nearly impossible for the slower torpedoes to hurt targets even with the shield absorption.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Wouldn't it be great if in turn hull had some built-in resist against energy weapons? Like 30% or so. Doesn't even have to be 75%. Although that'd be interesting.
Suddenly DHC's and Beam Arrays would be less of a universal weapon, and timing a well placed torp high yield would be all that much sweeter.
I don't run a vaper. At least not like the types I hear about lately. I actually do knock down a shield facing and plant torpedoes on the hull immediately after.
So although it is after the BO, it's the final kick over the edge for my attack.
I didn't mention that in my post because really, who's gonna actually DO that?:D
Someone did do some fancy math once showing that photons were at least as effective as damage dealers over time as any energy weapon if you weren't actually planning on killing something.
Actually, on one part (about target outrunning/running rings around the torp), some games have that. Ever played a Mechwarrior game, and try to shoot SRM or LRMs at a fast light mech? Yeah, the results are less than spectacular from the launcher's point of view, if the light driver is any good.
And I disagree with the point of how long a torp should be in existence. If anything, it should be locked down pretty tight. Torps don't have a ton of fuel to keep proprelling themselves. That 10k (or in some cases, 15km), should be a hrad limit. If you've made it consume that difference, then it should vanish. After all, you can't launch from outside that distance, so it would make no sense for a projectile of any kind to be able to keep going farther than that, in this game. I COULD stand behind a proposal to increase their speed by about 10%-15%, however, especially the high yield versions of torps.
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Anyway... I guess I am saying I like Torps... They are just not the easy mode weapon. I am sure for people coming in from PvE the difference is stunning. In PvE its not hard to pound a facing and land some torps, in PvE it is harder. I know guys with some skill like yourself can pull it off thissler, its just a lot of work. Only point I was making above was that the only way they really work for someone like you is by having hard hitting energy weapons to get to the hull first.
To rely on torps as your only spike just doesn't work. Anyway we all know that, I guess its for the new guys. Tops are super niche. You will see them spammed by premades (from there healers) and you will find them backed by things like Spread/HY 1 on "vaper" and hybrid super spike type builds.
For the first 10 or so levels, torps are a great weapon. They do high damage and don't even require a buff to be effective (just one torp is deadly to an NPC). Get a torp strike on a Lvl 1-20 pvper and they'd be near dead.
Problem is their damage increment curve for each Mk number is rubbish in comparison to other weapons. Quantum torps for mk 1-2 are pretty devastating compared to a DHC. Mk 3-4 they're perhaps equal unbuffed, with CRF DHC's having a slight lead. By Mk 5+ just slam DHCs onto your ship and forget torps all together.
By lvl 50 you're killing most NPC's before the torp gets close to hitting the target... Even though you fired it first.
The problem is compounded in PvP where a slither of shields pretty much negates a quantum torp. A vaper would probably be able to keep it down for the length of the vape, but in a general fight it'd be hitting a shield more often than hull, which means a lot of it's damage is wasted.
Torps at lvl 50 are basically only useful in specialized builds.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Did you fight with lvl 1 kdf npc form sector space of real players?
There was a time where Tri-Cobalt Shield Drain bombers where a thing, and a time where Quantums were seen as an alternative to BO overlords. I think Tri-Cobalt Shield Drain Bombers died with tactical team and the increase in shield drain reduction across the board, the Quantums might also have died due to TT. (THough it could also be that as players learned omre about the game, they realized that BO with a DBB was a bit better than HYT with a Quantum Torpedo launcher, and it would have died anyway.)
Those Tri-Cobalt builds where also not so great against the bag of hit points called NPC enemies.
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Torpedoes determine whether they are going to be a hit or a miss before they ever hit the target.
YES! This is true. You are absolutely right. This actually furthers my point.
When you fire a torpedo, if it has determined that it is going to be a MISS, it will just fly in the general direction of the enemy, but you can visually see that it is not going to hit them, and it just flies off into space relatively near them.
When you fire a torpedo, if it has determined that is is going to be a HIT, you can clearly see the torpedo tracking / homing / veering to the target even if the target tries to get out of the way.
The problem is that damage is not "dealt" to the target until the torpedo gets there visually. (Technically, the torpedo only needs to get within about 1km of the target to do it's damage if you watch your combat log real close. Sometimes the torpedo will do damage before it hits them as long as it gets real close.)
If you pay real close attention to your combat log, the enemy's shield facings, % hull HP, and for when the numbers appear above the enemy ship, you can see precisely when the damage is DEALT to the enemy. (Turn your combat log settings to only log combat for yourself if you want to test this for yourself without lots of clutter messages from stuff around you.)
This point really helps exemplify my problem: Your torpedo has already determined that it is a "hit," but the damage is not "dealt" unless the torpedo reaches its target. Many ships are fast enough, and torpedoes slow enough to simply make sure that the torpedo never gets there. Thus it turns your "hit" into the game basically saying, "Yeah you hit or would have hit, but they aren't going to take any damage anyway."
On another note, people get shield regeneration ticks naturally every 6 seconds. Even if you fire a torpedo at them when their shields are down, since the torpedo could easily take 4 seconds or more before it deals damage, there is a good chance they will get a tick of shield regen before the torpedo gets there. Even just a sliver of shielding reduces the torpedo damage by a lot. That is assuming that they aren't flying around so fast that you can even hit the shield facing you knocked down. (You probably can't.)
Transphasic torpedoes, and breen transphasic torpedo cluster mine launchers are pretty much your only option, and even with a full torpedo boat build, their damage is still so low, you would rarely be able to kill anyone unless you manage to land the breen cluster mine launcher... haha good luck with that. It will probably be shot down, or never get there even if the game determined it was going to be a "hit" and thus, they will not take the damage.
Again, people will say, "Just use energy builds then." Yeah I did that. I am tired of that. I want torpedoes to be viable in pvp IN STAR TREK! I really don't think that is asking a lot. In fact, I would suggest that it is reasonable to expect that from the developers.
Er, I apologize for not reading beyond that point...but I stopped there, because that's not true.
You will see damage both on screen and in the combatlog without the torps having hit the target yet. Heck, with torps that have special effects, you'll oft see those on the target at the time of the damage ticking...without the torps having hit the target either in the case of those speedy folks zooming away.
Admittedly, there may be a distance they've traveled at which they apply the damage if they have not hit the target yet; but that's still not a case of them having to have actually hit the target to apply the damage.
HMM! Ok, well I had to go try this for myself. You are right. I am wrong.
Here: I made a little you tube video to prove you right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPhI_CzZZLI&feature=youtu.be
Notice the hull HP % recognizes damage significantly BEFORE the torpedo visually impacts the target. Also, the damage ticks above the target, and is also recognized at the same time in the combat log.
BEHOLD! Let it be known that somewhere, someone admitted to being wrong without being a jerk about it on the internet. This is a momentous day. Live long and prosper.
I still think slow moving hard hitting torpedoes should move faster, and the regular torpedoes don't hit hard enough to make them viable in pvp in comparison to what energy weapons can do though.
Maybe a speed boost for the slow torpedoes and mines... perhaps just to raise them to the speed of normal torpedoes?
Heh, I admit I'm wrong all the time - though, I'm usually a jerk to myself in the process. I have some pretty bad moments, and I don't take it graciously - I usually rip into myself something rotten.
And yeah, I definitely agree there's an issue with some of the speeds for various torps. Have you ever fired a Beachball, Tricobalt, Temporal, and HY Omega? Hrmm, I should do a video of that...it's pretty sad by comparison...meh.
But that raises an interesting question, eh? Torp rolls to hit...but doesn't survive to the point that it would trigger damage? Hrmm...
Here: Another video to answer your question:
This torpedo rolls to hit, it goes after the guy, but even though it is a normal, NON-slow moving torpedo, he outruns it anyway. The torpedo literally never gets there. It winks out of existence. It still does damage though. You can see it in the combat log and on his hull HP %.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnkpqSkqxG8&feature=youtu.be
HOWEVER... I imagine the Breen Transphasic Torpedo Cluster Mine Launcher would NOT do damage in similar fashion because if the torpedo does not get to the target, it does not spawn the mines. This creates a whole new stage in the process since it is a unique torpedo just like many slow moving torpedoes have unique game mechanics. If the mines are never created, clearly they could not do damage. Heck I have seen the mines get created, but then the mines move so slowly... even though the torpedo go there, the mines never go off because the mines themselves don't get there, or sometimes only a few of them hit the target. The mines themselves can also be shot down by things like Beam Array: Fire at Will just like the torpedo itself can. This happens often.