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If you had to make a pvp set, what would be in it?

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  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    You make a good point with the ACCx3 weapons.

    I myself don't use ACCx3 not because I can't afford to do so... I just don't see the value over other options.

    Having said that it is one of those barriers to PvP we all talk about.

    Lots of average players that are coming into PvP are staying away... hear things like you can't do nothing with out ACCx3... nothing else is viable for PvP. ect ect ect

    We know that it is not completely true... still its a perception that ends up out there... and it hurts PvP.

    So I guess I ask... the question to answer yours.

    Do we really want Cryptic to think about PvP sets, which would very likely create even more barriers to PvP uptake ?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • mcduffie369mcduffie369 Member Posts: 787 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I would like to see some kind of craftable ground sets. Each set would be made of 2 weapons. The federation would get a powerful wide beam phaser pistol and a split beam rifle. The KDF would have a Auto rifle and a compression pistol.
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  • magniacapramagniacapra Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I like the idea of using ship drops for crafting.
  • webdeathwebdeath Member Posts: 1,570 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I would do something different if I made a set.. It would be a 4 peice set of course. But unlike the usual equipment slots, I'd do the following:

    1 Deflector, 1 Engineering console Slot, 1 Science Console Slot, 1 Tactical Console Slot.
    The Deflector would have bonuses towards Deflector based powers, shield heals, and shield boosts
    If you have the Deflector and and the Science console ( Bonus listed on the deflector and not an actual set bonus) Grants Sensor Analysis to the ship, if you already have Sensor analysis, the effects are "Doubled" (+100% higher) and improves how fast you gain stacks of Sensor analysis.
    The Science console would provide a boost to Particle Gen, and Flow Capacitor but at the purple console range but it would also be infinite in mark, always providing the highest amount of bonus for its level.
    The Engineering Console would basically be a Neutronium, but once again having same Max Bonus for level option as the Science console.
    The Tac Console would provide Bonuses to Beams, Torpedoes, Mines, and Cannons similar to how those types of consoles work. With a special, if you have both the Tac and engi consoles, you also get a bonus to your Turn rate. (Listed on the Tac console)
    Having 2 Peices Equipped would grant +Acc, +crtD, +CrtH
    Having 3 Peices Equipped would grant Extend Shields (Bubble) This would act like Extend shields II, but only for allies with in 5km, Allies that take damage, reduce YOUR shields.
    Having 4 Peices Equipped would allow a player to fire a massive radiation beam from their deflector similar to the start of ST:TNG Best of both worlds pt2, once fired, it would "Temporarly burn out" making any science power, except for team abilities, Grayed out. On Science vessels with Double Deflectors, this effect would not disable science powers. Typical cool down of 3 minutes, The damage would be similar to BO3, but would be a sustained shot firing for a total of 3 seconds. Sci power lock out would be 10 seconds. Damage type would be Radiation. Damage effects that buff it would be Particle Gens, Energy Weapons training, Weapons Training, and Beam only consoles.

    I know.. pretty lame. But hey, that's a set right? :P
    You think that your beta test was bad?
    Think about this:
    American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    the 3 part bonus would disable the use of all clickable powers that arent station powers in 10 range of the user. power creep is over!
  • magniacapramagniacapra Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Full disclosure.
    I believe a game is balanced when there are a variety of methods to accomplish a goal, and where there is diversity in styles, behaviours and strategies within a game. That's why allowing pvp'ers to pvp to get the stuff useful to them is a form of balance to me, in the greater sense, having 1 way to progress and grow your character is the very opposite of a balanced system and is an anathema to the type of expression and creativity within character progression that is vital to a healthy mmo.



    I think this is what I would do.

    Rep Passives:
    I want to do something like.... Every level your granted a token to pick an existing passive of any level from all the other reputation levels that have not been already unlocked....

    You would need to have a passives system similar to the trait system (a natural limit to the number of active passives at 5), or reform the rep passive systems that they become captain traits and appear in the list of traits.

    Crafting?
    Patrickngo mentioned something like ship kills drop crafting items. I think something like this could work - but aswell as kills, death from pets, activation of objectives (eg cap and hold) and npc deaths should provide a chance to drop these bits of crafting items. Nothing is worse than being steamrolled 15-0 by a premade - making that worse by slanting rewards to the premade would be a terrible result.

    Stores:
    Chroniton energy weapon = energy and kinetic both deal chroniton damage (not kinetic and unresisted by previous shields?) (+slow or turn rate debuff) Available in accx3 and other procs.
    Science = All consoles improve starship sensors skill (@ mk xii purple)
    Engineering = All consoles improve starship defence (@ mk xii purple)
    Tactical = All consoles improve accuracy (@ mk xii purple)


    Sets:
    3x 4 piece sets that loosely synergies with captain professions.
    All 4 piece sets have the equivalent 2 piece borg adaptive regeneration when 2 pieces are installed.
    All shields are resilient (bleedthrough/absorption)

    Blue
    Deflector - +sensors, +stealth detection
    Secondary Deflector +even more stealth detection/stealth sight (aka FU singularity jump)
    Warp Core - equiv to fleet warp cores, sans transwarp stuff
    Shields - similar to jem hadar shields +capx2 +chroniton res
    - 3 piece bonus - increases Conservation of Energy stacking to 6
    - 4 piece bonus - passive - +TRIBBLE to stealth sight, immunity to placte

    Red
    Deflector - +sensors +accuracy +
    Engines - +1-50% chance to add 100 hull res when engine is disabled or ship is tractor (happens once every x minutes)
    Warp core - equiv to fleet warp cores, sans transwarp stuff
    Shields - +10% all res, +chroniton res
    - 3 piece bonus - chance to reset GDF CD timer on ship death
    - 4 Piece bonus - passive - after 10 seconds, 2.5% chance for energy weapons to disable all active shield buffs on target for 10 seconds (aka, the massive FU to fleet shields)

    Yellow
    Deflector +shield emitters, +eps
    Engines - +1-50% chance to add 200 hull res when 50% of hull hp is received in damage over a 5 second period (once every x minutes)
    Warp core - equiv. to fleet warp cores, sans transwarp stuff
    Shields - +regen +chroniton res
    - 3 piece bonus - RSF ability can now be targeted
    - 4 piece bonus - passive - reduced the cooldown on all bridge officer abilities on activation of auxiliary to battery reduced by 30%.


    Weapon sets follow a similar path with a Kinetic, Cannon and Beam set. All set's do chroniton damage, have accx3 or higher and have the same 2 piece bonus of chroniton damage

    The Cannons set:
    Quad Cannons - Accx4, drain engine power as well as weapons power, deal less overall dps than DHC's however have a higher damage per burst (double that of dhcs)
    Heavy Single Cannon - Similar to the elachi lobi store cannon, but with accuracy x3
    Universal console - rcs +chroniton res +cannon acc
    - 3 piece bonus - quad cannon fires a turn rate debuff that effects target for 5 seconds. (1 minute cd)

    The Beams set: Heavy Beam Array - Same damage per tick as DBB, dps of standard beam arrays
    Experimental Dual Beam Bank - Uses less weapons energy than normal DBB (-50% weapons energy usage)
    Universal console - neutronium +chroniton res +beam acc
    - 3 piece bonus - on activation, experimental DBB slows target by 50% for 10 seconds

    Kinetic Set:
    Experimental Chroniton Mines - +slow +turn rate
    Cluster Torpedo - Transphasic Chroniton cluster torpedo - with slightly less shield penetration than the breen
    Universal console - Field generator +chroniton res +kinetic accuracy
    - 3 piece bonus - stun for 5 seconds on successful impact with cluster torpedo, grants victim immunity to all stun for 1 minute



    It should be possible to grind the PvP rep store via pve methods (maybe fleet events provide a choice of marks instead of just fleet marks. It should also be open to lower level characters (from level 40?).
    Basic weapons should require dilithum, level 1 of the pvp rep store attained, and a lowish number of crafting materials dropped from pvp. MK X set items should take as long to get as borg mk x items (ie, not very long) with set bonuses being identical to mk xii versions.
  • doffingcomradedoffingcomrade Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I'd say that if I were to make a set gained from PvP rep, the set would include powers that have...absolutely nothing to do with combat. Things like "-25% doff task completion time", and other powers that do nothing except make our lives easier OUTSIDE of PvP so we can get our work done and get back to the murdering.

    That way it cannot contribute in any way to power creep in PvP itself.

    As for PvP rep passives, I'd say something like "negates effect of level X rep passives on opponent". This does not improve your ship's power in any way, and if you're fighting a guy without rep passives, it would do nothing. So when you attack someone, his defensive rep passives do not activate, and when he attacks you, his offensive rep passives do not affect you. Also, options like "negates effect of cheese". So when an opponent uses cheese, you are unaffected by the cheese. If an opponent does not use cheese, then these passives do nothing.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • magniacapramagniacapra Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    patrickngo wrote: »
    (but let people buy and sell their components on the exchange, or just let them pass the bits to each other through their fleet bank...)
    There was a brief period were cryptic said - right, no more new currencies, all you'll need is dilithium and EC's... That lasted a few months. Why? Because cryptic wants to control the rate at which you get stuff. So that you can't just buy all you need on the exchange and get your stuff today if your really rich - which is what a system were commodities can be exchanged would mean. It's just not something cryptic would consider at all given the current direction of the game, and it's why old fashioned crafting is in the gutter.


    I think your (ACC) numbers base a little on the high side, and I think (Acc) shouldn't ever move past 3 to be honest...
    Perhaps, but the point of it was, it's reinforcing something pvp'ers want and pve'ers don't really want. It's why the proc type is chroniton which is meaningless in pve also.

    but maybe setting it up so that your specialization dictates (Acc) numbers for the weapons you craft-i.e. if you want to generate "PVP" cannons that have high (ACCx3) bonuses, you need to build them on a toon with 9 ranks in "Energy Weapons Specialization" and ditto for torps. This forces trade-offs for the building (to fit the idea I articulated)-thus creating lots of variation and encouraging people to swap and trade (you know, communicate and assist each other).
    Something about potentially having to respec skills to craft anything rubs me up the wrong way. Sorry.
    This also keeps the more traditional Fleet and Rep weapons viable as alternatives-because the PvP weps have enough variation, and the really desirable ones will be rare enough, that it prevents the phenomena of "The one True Build".

    The only fleet weapons that are viable are on the klingon side - and re: The One True Build - there's already a template or rough outline of proc types, sets, and consoles - all I've done is provided another route to get there.
  • illcadiaillcadia Member Posts: 1,412 Bug Hunter
    edited February 2014
    If I had to make a PVP rep, even before I did some sort of PVP set, it would be centered around different 'purist' gamemodes mostly.

    So like the first tier might give me access to a 'all rep actives/passives off' game mode, tier two might give access to one that's only accessible in T5 (not T5.5) ships. Tier 3 would allow for an option to restrict all set items from use. Tier 4 would be a 'no fleet gear' setting, and tier 5 would open up the purchase of various long requested items in the shop, like rechargable BoP batteries, captain re-profession, that sort of thing.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Creating PvP sets, would be a barrier to PvP.

    No thanks don't do it.

    Hasn't worked for any other game that has PvP gear... doubt it would work for Cryptic.

    That is an important point. I think a PvP reputation system might still not be bad idea to get more people to try out PvP, but it might need non-PvP enhancing benefits. It would be self-defeating to act both as an incentive and as a barrier to PvP...
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • sysil84sysil84 Member Posts: 207 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I like Magniacapra's idea. I think it's balanced, and fits well with the rest of the grind.

    The only thing I personally don't like is giving a bye to PvE'ers to level the rep without doing PvP. I want to encourage people to do PvP and this would be a good way.

    Also after 4 rep system that I was forced to PvE intensivily to grind, some payback would be nice :D
  • bones1970bones1970 Member Posts: 953 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    What about a set that let you respect your skills for free (every hour)
  • twamtwam Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    The only PvP sets that would work ...

    Would be a GW2 Type system... where they where all FREE ... did not need to be earned... and PvE gear was banned from PvP.

    Yes, please. With additional option of starting a PvP-only character at max level, as in GW1 (GW2 might also have that, I've still to get that one).
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  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    twam wrote: »
    Yes, please. With additional option of starting a PvP-only character at max level, as in GW1 (GW2 might also have that, I've still to get that one).

    When you start a new toon you can pvp any time. When you head to the PvP area you become full level. You can resepc your toon however you like there. So it is the same idea, you can do the PvE for that toon if you like or never bother.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • voxlagindvoxlagind Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    For my PvP expansion, I first have to introduce two new modifiers:

    [PvPw]: Player vs. Player Weapon. Increases damage against player-targets by X%.

    [PvPr]: Player vs. Player Resistance. Increases resistance against player targets by Y%.

    I just lost all the people reading that feel new gear will only keep new players out of PvP. It's my dream expansion, don't judge me! (jk) I'll admit there are plenty of CONS for an entirely different set of gear for PvP, but here are some of the PROs:

    * Easy swapping between sets with the new Loadouts system

    * Modifiers can be tweaked to improve game balance, without touching PvE mechanics at all.

    * PvE equipment can be released without worry about how it will affect PvP every single new lockbox.

    The Weapons:

    * Single energy types, each has [PvPw] mod and one of the following: Accx3, CrtHx3, CrtDx3, Dmgx3.

    Mk X Very Rare: Purchasable from PvP reputation system Tier 0. (incredibly cheap)
    Mk XI Very Rare: Purchasable from PvP reputation system Tier 3.
    Mk XII Very Rare: Purchasable from PvP reputation system Tier 5.

    The Defensive Set:

    Delfector, Engines, Shield, Warp Core, Console (hold break + temp hold immunity). Stats TBD by smarter people, each has [PvPr] mod. There's no reason to limit it to one set either, or that multiple versions of each can't exist that all mix and match, counting towards the same set bonus. Custom sets can be options for different roles, etc. Again, smarter people can figure this out.

    Mk X Very Rare: Projects available in PvP reputation system Tier 0. (incredibly cheap)
    Mk XI Very Rare: Projects available in PvP reputation system Tier 3.
    Mk XII Very Rare: Projects available in PvP reputation system Tier 5.

    2-piece, 3-piece, and 4-piece bonuses to PvP related benefit (TBD by smarter people).

    Custom Captian Class based consoles/traits/doffs/whatever:

    Some captain abilities will need to be tweaked in relation to the new damage level and resistances. Can take this time to buff Engies captain abilities to work better in a team, etc.

    Zen Store Purchases

    Starter kits for "Z" amount of Zen.

    Should come with a Mk XI Very rare set of weapons and Mk XI Very Rare defensive set, load of PvP marks, etc etc etc... Basically a jump up for those who don't want to wait or are new and want to get in faster.

    Go back to whatever crazy place you just came from, Vox....

    Okay...
  • magniacapramagniacapra Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    voxlagind wrote: »
    Okay...

    Most of the stats you mentioned I agree with but I don't think it's wise to continue to increase the gap in behaviour and tactics between pvp and pve if we can - though I guess it might be unavoidable.
  • magniacapramagniacapra Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    For what it's worth, I've made some small modifications to the set bonuses here...
    Sets:
    3x 4 piece sets that loosely synergies with captain professions.
    All 4 piece sets have the equivalent 2 piece borg adaptive regeneration when 2 pieces are installed.
    All shields are resilient (bleedthrough/absorption)

    Blue
    Deflector - +sensors, +stealth detection
    Secondary Deflector +even more stealth detection/stealth sight (aka FU singularity jump)
    Warp Core - equiv to fleet warp cores, sans transwarp stuff
    Shields - similar to jem hadar shields +capx2 +chroniton res
    - 3 piece bonus - increases Conservation of Energy stacking to 6
    - 4 piece bonus - passive - +TRIBBLE to stealth sight, immunity to placte

    Red
    Deflector - +sensors +accuracy +
    Engines - +1-50% chance to add 100 hull res when engine is disabled or ship is tractor (happens once every x minutes)
    Warp core - equiv to fleet warp cores, sans transwarp stuff
    Shields - +10% all res, +chroniton res
    - 3 piece bonus - chance to reset GDF CD timer on ship death
    - 4 Piece bonus - passive - after 10 seconds, 2.5% chance for energy weapons to disable all active shield buffs on target for 10 seconds (aka, the massive FU to fleet shields)

    Yellow
    Deflector +shield emitters, +eps
    Engines - +1-50% chance to add 200 hull res when 50% of hull hp is received in damage over a 5 second period (once every x minutes)
    Warp core - equiv. to fleet warp cores, sans transwarp stuff
    Shields - +regen +chroniton res
    - 3 piece bonus - RSF ability can now be targeted
    - 4 piece bonus - passive - reduced the cooldown on all bridge officer abilities on activation of auxiliary to battery reduced by 30%.
  • voxlagindvoxlagind Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    My thought process was just this: nothing is going to be done with PvP if it will alter PvE. A lot of other games have already adopted the idea of PvP stats to balance their games, and they work well so long as there is a base set of gear that people can get with near-no effort and will make them competitive.

    Not only that, but those stats can be tuned to balance as needed without changing PvE at all.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    voxlagind wrote: »
    My thought process was just this: nothing is going to be done with PvP if it will alter PvE. A lot of other games have already adopted the idea of PvP stats to balance their games, and they work well so long as there is a base set of gear that people can get with near-no effort and will make them competitive.

    Not only that, but those stats can be tuned to balance as needed without changing PvE at all.

    That is the reason I don't care for PvP stats. No one has managed to pull them off at all.

    They start off fine because everyone is = in terms of gear.

    With in a few patches there are the haves and the have nots... then you end up with companies trying to balance things with crazy idea like PvP tiers and all manner of bad ideas.

    A few more patches after that and you have a system where new players stay away because trying to PvP means you end up going in with Zero PvP stat and fighting people with maxed out PvP stat and the entire thing becomes a joke.

    Then at some point a patch or two more down the road... The Developer decides to create an entry level PvP Stat Set of gear... In every case I can remember. The long time players are annoyed by this as these new players haven't done the work for it. The players see no Value in it because they haven't worked for it and really still have no specific reason to jump into a game type they haven't touched before.

    I won't keep going on... my point point is ... PvP stats are always bad for the game. I have never seen them achieve there desired effect. More often they do the exact opposite of what the developer wants.

    Funny enough most games that have PvP Stats... have either got to a point where they give everyone the PvP stat for free anyway... or they have in fact removed them because they realize in most cases way to late that they destroyed there own games with them.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • voxlagindvoxlagind Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    That is the reason I don't care for PvP stats. No one has managed to pull them off at all.

    They start off fine because everyone is = in terms of gear.

    With in a few patches there are the haves and the have nots... then you end up with companies trying to balance things with crazy idea like PvP tiers and all manner of bad ideas.


    I actually disagree with you here. If done right, it makes PvP sustainable and easy for anyone to get into.

    Usually, a PvP gear system is 3 tiered. Basic, Advanced, and Elite, all the same equipment but slightly improved based the gears rank (like Mk X, Mk XI, and Mk XII in this game now). Basic gear is really easy to get and will make you competitive. Advanced isn't difficult to get, but requires a grind. Elite is rewarded for excellence in PvP, and is usually guarded by a ratings cap (it's elite for a reason, it's not supposed to be easy to get). The trick though, is that the three tiers really aren't that far apart, so while an Elite will have a distinct advantage over a Basic, it's not so much as to assure the Elite the victory, especially not when team play is factored in.

    The idea is to also rotate the gear every 6 months or so. The ranking ladders get wiped clean and a new set of Elite gear is introduced. The gear that was previously Elite becomes Advanced (no ratings to aquire, requires a grind of sorts), and the previous Advanced becomes the new Basic (insanely easy to get for anyone coming into PvP).

    World of ******** during The Burning Crusade expansion did this best, IMO, though they had some issues from what I remember with PvE gear sneaking in and ruining the balance at times. But the idea remains, if you PvP without the PvP gear, you get crushed, but a basic PvP set is available for near nothing for whoever wants it.

    Elite stuff is almost a matter of prestige, despite being better as well. Some nice visuals of ship skins for Elite STO PvP stuff would be great (we all have egos).

    I think most people think they wouldn't want this type of system in place, but would realize it's what they needed all along. While they'd kick and scream at first (because that's what our community does when any kind of change is mentioned, despite the fact that we're always crying for change), but eventually they'd realize it was perfect.
  • ocp001ocp001 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    The only thing I want in the next "pvp" set is for cryptic to put in a turret as part of the weapon set. Seriously torpedo after torpedo, after mine after TRIBBLE single cannon.

    If it's gotta be useless at least make it a turret.
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