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If you had to make a pvp set, what would be in it?
magniacapra
Member Posts: 544 Arc User
Imagine a new reputation store for people who pvped.
You have the opportunity to create a base line standard set of gear that new and old players can attain without the soul crushing levels of pve repetition required for some of the other pvp sets.
Would you just rebrand some of the other more popular items and set bonuses like the borg 2piece and fleet shields? Remodel faction specific items like the valdore console? Would you provide +Acc*3 weapons in the rep store? And would you seek to iron out other imbalances and real or perceived barriers to pvp?
You have the opportunity to create a base line standard set of gear that new and old players can attain without the soul crushing levels of pve repetition required for some of the other pvp sets.
Would you just rebrand some of the other more popular items and set bonuses like the borg 2piece and fleet shields? Remodel faction specific items like the valdore console? Would you provide +Acc*3 weapons in the rep store? And would you seek to iron out other imbalances and real or perceived barriers to pvp?
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No thanks don't do it.
Hasn't worked for any other game that has PvP gear... doubt it would work for Cryptic.
And no, anyone who says that certain items don't have huge effects on your ships performance should just not talk to me.
Or do you prefer pve grind on every new toon instead of pvping?
Without providing templates that are balanced, you can't balance PvP. Providing a store, reputation, etc - simply provides another means for there not to be balance. It's alternative imbalance...not balance.
That's some pretty circular logic.
Cryptic's balance = the only way is up. "Providing templetes that are balanced" is meaningless if there are better items that can be used and will never be meaningfully nerfed.
So, you have 2 options, take the most important procs/set bonuses and items players currently use and reinforce that as the level players use or continue to power creep to the moon with pvp rep store, or an ever increasing amount of fleet and rep store TRIBBLE.
Think about any game you have ever played that has pvp gear... has it worked for them ?
You are wanting to setup a game where PvPing drops barriers on PvE. Making it possible to get PvE rewards or things almost Identical by not PvEing.
The issue is... PvP is a system most people don't start playing STO for. Most people come to STO to play a star trek game and take up PvP later. You are suggesting a system where they come to PvP and face opponents that are all decked out in PvP gear.
Now if its just carbon copies of what they have already earned in PvE... they really don't need the PvP gear do they.
The issue will be that it won't be the same set they earned in PvE... it will be different. Even if we find such a set balanced. The perception will be that those evil Grinding PvP kids that sit in basements and play all week while I the new guy was working... means I stand no chance there for I won't PvP. <--- barrier to PvP.
PvP sets... create a perception that in order to do well in PvP you must earn said set... if the only way to earn said set is PvP... that would mean having to get get beat up until you pay your dues... until you to can run said set and beat up on the other new kids coming in the door. <--- that is the Perception true or not that kills the idea of PvP sets and why every MMO with PvP gear... has there PvP die out in a fairly short amount of time.
This game was not built on PvP so putting up artificial barriers like Gear sets would be very very bad long term.
No idea how you see that as circular.
If the gear is fixed, the gear is fixed. You only use what's in the template. If there is an up, then there is an up everywhere - so it is still balanced.
Powercreep to the moon is going to happen. There is not going to be an end to powercreep.
If you want balance in PvP, then you're going to want prefab templates.
Simply providing an alternative means to get the powercreep gear does not address balance in the least...it just provides an alternative means to get the powercreep gear. Joe Random doesn't have to grind PvE to get his imbalanced gear, he just grinds PvP to get his imbalanced gear. You'll still have those with and those without - you'll have all sorts of possible mixes of gear - you'll have all sorts of imbalance. All you've done is allow Joe Random to get that gear without having to do something he does not like.
edit: That's not saying that folks shouldn't have an alternative, but then you get into all those discussions that Hus mentioned - can you imagine the trolling that would take place over in General Discussion with screams of "WELFARE EPICS!" going on?
Cryptic doesn't seem to test extreme cases, and I doubt any set they could come up with will be 100% power creep proof. They haven't failed in introducing some power creep somewhere once.
Would be a GW2 Type system... where they where all FREE ... did not need to be earned... and PvE gear was banned from PvP.
In other words a system where anyone can come in create any PvP build they want and go at it.
If that is the system you want... I am all over it.
As others have pointed out... Cryptic doesn't have the vision to see such a system as needed to ensure long term serious PvP taking place here.
They are from the old school of sell out devs that believe the only way to run a game is to monetize every single PiP Ship and Cannon.
Which is why the idea of balanced PvP happening in STO is pretty much a pipe dream.
Anyone that thinks that is bleak... just look at the shuttle ques... they couldn't even help themselves there and will likely never ban or curtail full size ship P2W consoles from ending up on shuttles.
They don't even try to hide it - they don't see it as bad...cause when you look at a lot of the feedback they get, the general masses are asking for more and more and more. When you have a few complain about what Geko had said recently...massively outnumbered by those clamoring for more and more and more - well, that's the game. That's STO.
PvP dropping barriers on PvE? hohoho. If PvE needed it's barriers dropped any lower....
No, the difference is that unlike the current system, if all you do is PvP, you do not have to sit through 100 hours of repetable pve to get the stuff that you more or less need. The problem of perception you describe is already one that exists, with lockbox ships and accx3 weapons, people ALREADY COMPLAIN about pvp grinders who have too much time and no life. The argument just doesn't hold water because that's just not the objective, you can get the borg 2 piece bonus either by doing a pvp rep or a pve rep (for example) -
And clearly, because a game wasn't buit around pvp means that we should never do anything to cater to and streamline the game in that direction, because PvE content in this game is so fine tuned and balanced....
I'd offer 1 global 4 piece set worth of bonuses.
To fulfill the 4 piece requirement, you would be allowed to choose from a small array of shields, small array of engines, deflectors, warp cores, etc.
Example: Imagine if any given piece of Fleet equipment could be slotted towards granting a 4 piece set bonus.
The two piece bonus would add +10% Hull & +10% Shields
The three piece bonus would add +20% ACC and DEF.
The four piece bonus would grant complete immunity from the effects of every special universal console, or clicky power (like TIF) in the game - both positive and negative effects.
Then I would sit back and laugh. :P
Hrmm, see - I tend to think of it this way...
Have you ever read any of the reviews for the $100 or less tablets out there from customers? Basically where folks are giving them to their children, ages 3-12? Yeah, 3 to 12...heh. They're giving their 3 year old kids tablets. Well, Geko sees them as customers! Until a 3 year old can play STO...they're going to keep pumping out the powercreep. It's about lowering the bar...having the largest possible customer base. STO 2016: Puppies on iPhones! You heard it here first (okay, I actually said it somewhere else first)...
Temporal Inversion Field.
I don't like talking about PvP sets or reps much because I don't want cryptic to get some crazy idea that we want PvP grinds to go with the rest of our grinds. I don't believe they would come up with anything for PvP that isn't grindy because that is all they do.
Ok Ok back to the I'm going to post something nice angle.
Here is the system I would propose for PvP "sets"
1) Create a new Ship doll. Disallow the slotting of normal gear on this doll. When you load into any Qued PvP. (arena/cap and hold) This is the doll that is loaded for your ship.
2) Create vendors on Ganalda and K7 (the PvP bases) that vend for Zero Credits to anyone... a selection of MK XII Purple -p Gear. This stuff would only slot on the players PVP ship doll. This gear can have any set bonuses they like... key is IT ALL HAS to be 100% free. No paid advantages... just choices for players. (I mean everything here not just standard sets... weapons consoles sets warp cores... all of it no more PvE infections)
3) Change the Ques to allow both factions to Que together and be teamed no matter faction.
4) Tyler Durden the Ques. Allow teams to Que... however that just ensures people they will be in the same game... not on the same team depending on how the system auto balances the match. - The system should keep track on the back end of everyones basic numbers... HPS/DPS/KD ratio/Win Loss/Average Game time... and use this info to auto balance teams. This way if 4 new players are in the game with 6 vets the system balnaces it out 2 new players per side... balances aprox healing numbers, dmg, win-loss ratios ect. We get 10x better games.
Doing those simple 4 things would give them a industry leading PvP game type... with lets be completely honest here pretty minimal work. They would instantly have a Tournament Class PvP system... and would drop all barriers to new people getting involved with PvP on the casual side of things.
Temporal Inversion Field
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Temporal_Warfare_Set
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Ability:_Temporal_Inversion_Field
Nuke all mmo/rpg aspects of the game and turn it into a pure arena game destroying the creative aspect of coming up with new builds and shifting metas?
I'm very much against this you take away a large amount of unpredictability and depth to the game.
Well since I fo not own a Timeship I guess I do not need to worry about getting a TIF, though from the looks I can go into tizzy when I get hit.:D
right now it could be said that is where the game is at. I mean for the most part teams have to be made up certain way with certain build to be successful and the variances are few and far between. Yes you have niche builds and niche teams but the overall success of those builds are low because they are not sustainable in the meta. most sci ships now spam GW/TR, cruisers are BFAW, and most escorts are Rommie Vapers. There is a few spots for hybrid builds but the road to success is based around those.
Then you get into a game that's easily defined by spreadsheets at the higher levels, and your actual ship choice is now 100x times more important. (do you ban lockbox ships too? or nerf them for pvp to be in line?)
You quoted me...but you didn't read what I said, eh? Curious...
Then why bother mentioning balance? All you want is an alternative means to get gear...simple as that. Probably find that there are a lot of folks that agree with that. You'd see that I said that...er...then again, that's only if you read what you actually quoted. /cough
Bet you could put me in the exact same ship as you...and we're going to fly it differently.
I think you summed it up Virus. What he is looking for here is away out of the PvE grind. Which I hate as much as anyone. I just don't see a viable way to do that and still have a healthy PvP system.
Make the gear Identical... and the ques get overrun by everyone looking for the easier way to get there gear. (show up in a shuttle or a ship with no shields 3 times a day for a few weeks or what ever it is and skip the one PvE grind you hate... ya it would happen)
I would love to skip the PvE grind for gear as well... but as long as you allow PvE gear in PvP that is simply never going to happen.
There is no way to implant a PvP gear or a PvP for your PvE gear system that ends well for PvP in general.
That is about the stupidest comment I've ever read on these forums.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
Balance doesn't mean make everything identical. I believe we can repackage most of the good stuff in alternative ways, yes, you have to watch out for edge cases and there will always be power creep, but then again, I don't believe items and consoles are as big an issue as overused or underused bridge officer abilities, and while I have no sympathy for cryptics business model, I'm willing to accept it as reality and work within it's constraints.
As far as i'm concerned, all items in game are pvp - or should be considered so by the developers. I don't believe in creating a 2 tiered system of items that only work for one or the other, but we kind of have a bunch of abilities and items everyone never uses in pve, but are vital in pvp.
If you don't believe in 2 tiers why the thread about a PvP set ?
Would that not be 2 tiered. Or are you suggesting that it be just another option so PvP can be flooded with a bunch of PvE guys taking there shields off to grind out the new set ? If the set only appeals to PvP people it is going to have to have a reason to only appeal to PvP people.. which would mean it would have to end up being more PvP focused and end up being a defacto PvP set.
You are suggesting they try to walk a fine line... and I think we all know Cryptic isn't capable of that.
You can look at the history of many other games where PvP gear pretty much shut down PvP as it killed growth in those games. People aren't all that hot on grinding for months to catch up to the games player base. Also one set always leads to a second set and a third. Before you know it you have a multi tiered PvP gear progression system where the halves end up with massive advantages over the nots. At some point in all the past games I remember the player pool dries up... those left with all there PvP gear get bored shooting at the same handful of other geared players and the PvP in the game becomes a ghost town.
By 2 tiered system I was referring to items that where prohibited or denatured when used for pve or pvp. I believe that there shouldn't be a distinction between the items or tactics you use between either pvp or pve BUT THAT IS NOT THE REALITY. A subnuke is almost rarely useful in PvE were as it's the hammer in PvP, were as all of these universal consoles seem pointless gimicks in PvE, were as they are highly disruptive (which isn't always a bad thing) in PvP.
Deciding what would appeal to PvP'ers and not to PvE'ers was the very purpose of this thread, using that question as a criticism of the OP is, well...