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New PvPer's Guide to understanding it's major problems
voxlagind
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Lots of new players in PvP often wonder why it can be so unforgiving. Not knowing some of the key problems facing PvP can make the transition all the more discouraging, so I started compiling a list of the main problems with it.
1) "Invisible" hazards. Warp Plasma, Theta Radiation, and Yellowstone pet vents aren't rendered properly while in 5v5 space PvP, effectively removing their only weakness (being avoidable).
2) Special and Universal consoles (and set bonuses). Alone, they're all fine (except the Ferengi D'kora EMP console which still incorrectly has it's cooldown reduced by Aux2Batt with Technician DoFFs). But they provide no immunity to the target, allowing a team to chain or stack them mercilessly. Also, consoles of the same name share no cooldowns with each other, allowing for them to be swapped out-of-combat or under cloak and used more frequently than the cooldowns for them would permit.
3) Weapon classes are not balanced. While weapons are supposed to be balanced between firing arc and damage output, concepts such as power drain and instant-hit vs. chase fire mechanics completely obliterate that balance. The current state of the game has left the 250 degree beam arrays considerably better than the 45 degree dual cannon counterparts. Most often this is blamed against Fire At Will, but it stems from the weapons themselves acting in counter-intuitive ways with power drain and instant-hit mechanics.
4) Spike damage and resistances are extremely far from center on the balance scale. A ship fully buffed with resistances won't die. On the other end, a means to strip an opposing ship bare of buffs exists in conjunction with massive damage dealing abilities. What you get is unkillable ships roving around at near full health, until suddenly they're dead. Killing is a game of 2 minute cooldowns and instant kills, not steady damage and attrition. Survival is as much a matter of luck and intuition as preparedness. Games can be over in seconds, or last hours.
1) "Invisible" hazards. Warp Plasma, Theta Radiation, and Yellowstone pet vents aren't rendered properly while in 5v5 space PvP, effectively removing their only weakness (being avoidable).
2) Special and Universal consoles (and set bonuses). Alone, they're all fine (except the Ferengi D'kora EMP console which still incorrectly has it's cooldown reduced by Aux2Batt with Technician DoFFs). But they provide no immunity to the target, allowing a team to chain or stack them mercilessly. Also, consoles of the same name share no cooldowns with each other, allowing for them to be swapped out-of-combat or under cloak and used more frequently than the cooldowns for them would permit.
3) Weapon classes are not balanced. While weapons are supposed to be balanced between firing arc and damage output, concepts such as power drain and instant-hit vs. chase fire mechanics completely obliterate that balance. The current state of the game has left the 250 degree beam arrays considerably better than the 45 degree dual cannon counterparts. Most often this is blamed against Fire At Will, but it stems from the weapons themselves acting in counter-intuitive ways with power drain and instant-hit mechanics.
4) Spike damage and resistances are extremely far from center on the balance scale. A ship fully buffed with resistances won't die. On the other end, a means to strip an opposing ship bare of buffs exists in conjunction with massive damage dealing abilities. What you get is unkillable ships roving around at near full health, until suddenly they're dead. Killing is a game of 2 minute cooldowns and instant kills, not steady damage and attrition. Survival is as much a matter of luck and intuition as preparedness. Games can be over in seconds, or last hours.
[SIGPIC]http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=93695767000&dateline=1347284393[/SIGPIC]
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
Post edited by voxlagind on
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I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
How does this work? I think it happened to me yesterday when I it was 14-14 score and I got a kill and it didn't count, seemed very convenient.
Unsure but a team yesterday played the system and didn't make 7 of our kills count.
I think I was in your group a few times yesterday when I was on my Fed Rom Taleria, you are a sci right? That is the game I was talking about I remember someone else mentioning it in chat too that their kills didn't count.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Ok, faulty memory. In the end, they're exploiting the system.
Also another tactic that probably should be added, is the Log out to Avoid a kill. Not much else really needs to be said, other then it's annoying when it happens in a match. Silly how ever in Ker'rat (just wait for the person to log back in and they log back in at the same spot they left).
And of course there are the AFKers.. While those are every where, in PVP they can be extremely annoying. Not only do they give the opposing team an automatic 1 kill, they are 1 less player involved in the match, which gives the opposing team the obvious advantage. The more afkers, the worse it gets for the players actually wanting to PVP.
And then there is also the Cloak and Troll. Now this is not the be confused with the AFKer. Because clearly he's there. But all he's doing is flying cloaked, and avoiding the fight all together. Doing everything in his power to keep his distance so he won't be seen. Even going so far as to hitting the bottom corners of a map just to keep from being found. Usually how ever these nuscances can be delt with by team mates targeting them and getting close enough for the enemy to find and kill the target.. If the enemy team knows whats going on and is willing to deal with the troll.
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Lag is something every internet based game faces, and is present in almost all the top rated games, not just STO. The only problem with STO is that since every ability is instant, the spam can make things bad. A lot of this is dependent upon each individuals internet speed as well, as I have great internet speed and almost never lag, but I know people with slower internet who lag all the time. There's really not anything they can do about this without creating a whole new game. It they could just make the space plasmas able to be seen, that'd be fine by most players.
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
Seriously though, the other day I was trying think of how to alleviate and/or better the learning curve on PvP. As it stands, the learning curve between PvP and PvE is night and day. A person that learns to be moderately successful and put out decent DPS in Elite STFs will still have little or no chance (meaning success & fun) in Arena or Ker'rat PvP.
The sheer amount time you have to invest as a new player to EVEN compete in PVP is also an issue. Ships, builds, traits, Doffs, Boffs, rep gear, fleet gear, Story Missions (breen cluster torp/Nimbus pirates), EC, Dil, Zen and buahaha..ha.. - you now have a recipe for turning away the masses in PvP. I, unfortunately, have invested that time and money already... but on an Engineer. SAD FACE. No burst dps to make that final bit of hull disappear, but I can survive 5 or 6 seconds longer. Awesomesauce all the way.
Solution would be ladder play or tiered PvP with another experience bar & gear grind that is all generic, but different and equal, which would also incorporate a new stat for reduced player damage. I.E. Guild Wars with Space Ships. That has worked in the majority of other MMOs (Neverwinter, Guild Wars 1/2, SWTOR etc.). This, however, will never happen. Don't look for it. Nope. Never. Just learn to be happy with what you have is the spirit of my post.
My intention wasn't to drive people away from PvP, but to better explain the environment they're facing while playing it. If you ask a new PvPer why they don't want to do it anymore, they will usually give you a few reasons that don't make sense (because they don't actually know why it was that they struggled so much). The real reasons behind their frustrations remain blurred, and we as a community tend to "circle the drain" attempting to assist newer players with the fake problems they don't really have.
If Cryptic never plans to fix any of these problems (despite making claims that they will, their actions have betrayed their credibility on the subject), then any new PvP player with a chance of sticking it out to become a regular will need to know what they're getting into, and accept it for what it is.
And who knows, if we establish these major flaws to every PvPer who will listen, and it becomes the basis for all the word of mouth about PvP, Cryptic may eventually be shamed into making a few of the fixes. Or so we can hope.
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
This among other things already mentioned.
STO Forum member since before February 2010.
STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link
I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
Please excuse the negativity of my last post. The environment new PvP players are facing is rife with bugs and quirky one-shot mechanics. The reason new players don't want to do PvP is because when they fire weapons, no one dies or even gets damaged. Your post title stipulates "major problems." The only major problem is the insane learning curve as described in my previous post. I can appreciate that you are trying to lay out the issues in a fashion that new players will understand, but ultimately they won't even understand the abbreviations and short talk. For instance, what is an Aux2batt build? How do I get purple Technician Doffs?
You can't address the issues with PvP until you address the core issue of the game - it's to complicated for the design for which it was initially built. Meaning, the game was initially designed to be checkers, but the Devs attempted to make it 3-D chess to complete with similar games on the market. Now we are left with a hybrid game that is 4 years old and can't be fixed without a significant investment.
As a player new to PVP....I honestly think PVP is dead. WHat new player would want to try it more than a few times? In most other games where they have PVP "Arena" type matches, there is some semblance of a Tier/ranking system even at the later levels to reflect equipped gear and so on. There is no balance here. Even on matches which are pug on pug...a person who is relatively well geared and in a decent ship is incinerated by the veteran PVP people. If someone can perma-tank you and nearly one-shot you...you have balance problems.
When a Romulan Science ship can Tank 4 people, be-able to out run them...and then incinerate someone in one volley...there are problems. I have had plenty of matches where it has been fun and balanced...win or losing didn't matter because I didn't feel like I was being *****. But then there are always those matches where PUGS like me show up and die with in .5 seconds of contact....and you sit there and think...why am I doing this. And that is what every relatively new player is thinking....and that is why you see an aging PVP community with few new members even trying it out.
So we can all point fingers and say, hey it's the PUGs fault for not grouping up..or it's crypic's fault and so on...but in the end, no matter how this subject is debated....PVP will soon be nothing but veteran players in their elite groups waiting 45 minutes for a que....gutting some noobs in under 2 minutes (people who will never try it again) and then sitting around waiting 45 for another que.
Nailed it. Yes, the learning curve for being able to get into PvP matches is steep, and I'm only still playing it because I'm stubborn. It took me months (4 to be precise) before I finally had something that could survive in there more than a couple of seconds. If there was some kind of balance involved taking into consideration a ranking system then people wouldn't be put off so much by it.
With a ranking system balancing things out, the gear wouldn't matter as much as the player's skill.
The problem is, in order for a ranking system to be of any use, the devs would have to take steps in developing it (http://hilbertguide.com/leaderboard/?timeframe=daily& is a good start). That would also mean they would need to make the combat log more accurate and useful (add shield and power drains to the mix).
At this point, Cryptic is either going to tweak what we currently have to make it playable as is, or they're not going to do anything at all. The safe money is on them not doing anything. Even if they do the things from my original post, some people still won't be happy; still won't think it's enough.
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
Elite fleet adaptive shields, spire tac consoles, XII borg gear, elite eniges, deflector, and core, bought SOOOOO many ships......even got the FE ship..... and its like this:
I have the advanced gear, the top gear, lets try pvp.....
vaped, respawn, vaped respawn....who is vaping me? i am dead before i can even see them....i will use a death, watch EVERYTHING, LISTEN FOR EVERYTHNG...get vaped...seen him....ok, ill cloak, wait for him to atk then ill jump him.....why arent his shields going down!? why are MY shields going down so fast and i have the top shields? f this, im going back to kerrat.....
in kerrat:
Theres HOBO, lets leave kerrat....
back to pve......
with all the gear i have on what is storyline wise, the most advanced ship YET, this ship would be the most powerful thing in ANY of the shows, yet it gets vaped...HARD.....
also, cannons were OP on the show yet appear to do NOTHING now....lolwut....sisko is somewhere going thats not right........
but the funny thing is......vapers run cannons.....so it HAS to be me.......so then i copy some vaper builds posted, using ships they use...fleet mogai, arkif, scimitar......STILL get vaped....(when i say "vaped" replace v with r.....) so i run the boff layout i am told to run....still vaped.....
^....this is a pvp newbie's experiance........
after all that, where is the fun?
back to pve....
There are successful mmos with steeper learning curves than sto pvp. The way they get around it is via the social elements. In a good large fleet were you can learn directly from buddy's, sto pvp is a remarkable experience.
A good fleet can only take a player so far, and is not going to alleviate the basic problems plaguing pvp. The learning curve alone is going to push a majority of people away, let alone the time and effort you need to put in to get competitive gear.
Member since early 2011
That is intended.Geko said many times ,even in the last podcast that he wanted DHC nerfed.Now beams or gtfo.
Elite stfs need to be done in 20 seconds.PvP doesnt matter because according to the same Geko ,STO players are casual players who dont really play the game ...they just log in game from time to time and pour money in it ...probably 20 seconds stf then bank account transfer then another 20 seconds pve and another bank transfer.
I want a business like this ,where people only come from time to time to give you money
I just can't be that cynical about it. Any game designer would know that the second you throw away game balance in favor of popular demand from the casual player base, the game itself isn't far from the end of its run. Maybe this isn't anything new for STO. Maybe I want to believe them when they make promises they never intended to keep.
I hope that they do realise that balance, stability, and content are needed to help keep the game going. As it is, I haven't seen nearly as many people opening the new Hirogen box, mainly because it's a ship that doesn't offer anything new that you already get from a half dozen other escorts. Likewise, the Apex is just another token cruiser, and I hardly see anyone flying it.
Let's hope that they see that through balance and better defined roles, they can make these ships desirable. If not, we've reached the point where new ships are going to have to power creep even harder to sell.
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
I think most of the issues in PvP (and vicariously the now laughable PvE elite STFs) may be solved with a level cap increase and Mk XIII gear. Yes, I know - you spent hours upon hours and maybe money on ships, gear, zen etc. But, what other feasible choice is there for rebalancing. If the devs can't redress the state of PvP now that might be there only other option. They can add options to increase console/weapon slots to current ships. Introduce new gear with additional PvP stat(s) for offense AND defense. Introduce tiered PvP queues based on a new PvP experience system or a PvP gear check.
Too bad non of this will be fixed any time soon, these problems started all with the release of the first pay2win items after f2p, and imagine if this gets fixed, 10 other problems pop up which also takes 2 years before they fix it, and the circle goes round and round.
There is never going to be an end to this.
so your answer to OP gear is to make MORE OP'er gear? >.>
Mr. Geko..... i realize you wanted DHC nerfed but cannons were OP in DS9..... they should of retained at some usability. the Defiant use to plow through ships.... RIP through them! ...and it did it WITHOUT beam overload..... The game shouldnt be go beam or go home......
EptX is broke....ALL of them.....the power should COME from somewhere, not nowhere. maybe a 5th power subsystem marked "emergency which should be specced in like all the others, if no power in it, then EptX doesnt nothing.... or remove them all and make aux power to X...."
just saying.......
O god no, please! That would invalidate everything I have worked for gear wise, as well as hundreds of other players out there, if not thousands. Also, why would adding another layer on a faulty system be an improvement? The problems are still there, and you just add another reason to shove new players away from the very system you are trying to 'fix.'
Your last bit about tiered queues, however, does show merit, though the implementation of such a system would be a a trial of labor. Still, if I can get into a match and not be curb stomped in the first three seconds after initiation, I would be a happy kitty ^^;
Member since early 2011
this^^
i?m playing this game since 6 weeks, and i?m learning quick and much, having my personal pvp boot camp trainer for me.....
1) one hit mechanics all 2 minutes ---> simply bad gamedesign
---> we want fight, not be oneshotted every 2 minutes
2) romulan battle cloak --> the Cooldown should be MUCH higher, like in other games Vanish has a CD of at least 2 Minutes ---> all that Romulan Cowards doing no risk pvp, that sucks....
3) most of kills in arenas are made by ---> nuke, alpha, beta, overload/rapid fire --> target down in 1-2 seconds, before any human can react....... thats dumb ........ and its done too simple
look at Eve-Online, there a Couple of Electronic Warfare Mechanics in the game, would should be used to make a target killable, energy drains, shield drains and so on........
New Players like me, starting 2-3 Matches, getting oneshottet x times by any romulan cloaking coward, who always ran if he gets attacked, but is there when is cooldowns are available ...... and will quit forever, cause its simple:
it doesn?t bring fun.
DMG ist way to high in this game. Why i?m building up my ressistances, when he get alpha + 50% damage + beta -40 ressis + anything else and shooting through all........
but i think, Cryptic will not learn. Its the same thin like in pve, dumb NPC?s with oneshot mechanics, far too easy, and a pure grind....... and like i have seen in this forum, for month and years.....
so, i will do more pvp, but if there comes no fixes, i?m quicker out of this game, than downloaded it........
Nevermind that. Forums #1 problem.
Who picked this horrible eyesore of a colour scheme.
PvP major problems:
1) Geko
2) Greed
3) Human Psychology
4) Geko
5) Geko
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
All these slowly rolled out changes get worse and worse, specially the font.
Anyway, Romulan players cloaking most of the fight really sucks. I know of two in particular who just cloak 80% of the time, and just appear to try vaping runs about 5 times in a whole match.