The Atrox is probably literally the worst ship in this game. It can mount cannons though for you DC noobs.
A ship's performance depends on the quality of the player building her up and using her.
In PVP, there have been Atrox users that have been the unbreakable centerpieces of Fed teams, taking so much punishment from every possible direction, while throwing out hangar units and dispensing abilities from its immense Science capacity.
So again, a ship's performance depends on the player. You can put a good player who understands the game to use a "terrible" ship and he/she will make it shine. You put a worthless player in something like even a JHAS, then they're still a worthless player flying a powerful, super expensive ship and making it perform... worthlessly.
I think I know why a lot of people seem to have problems with the Atrox. Before I explain, I will say that I was recently parsed in The Conduit elite in my regular, non-fleet Atrox by a hull-melting group of people from the DOFFJOBS channel. I came out with 6.8k dps rating, and I am sure that it would have been higher if the rest of the group would not have been so good that they were killing things before I even got to fire on them. Now, 6.8k is not that high compared to some of the numbers that other people put out, but keep in mind that I do this with full heals (science team 1, engineering team 2, hazard emitters 2, transfer shield strength 3), good crowd control (136 graviton generators skill with no console), and good debuff/disable ability (142 flow capacitors with no console).
The Atrox is a contrarian's ship. By that I mean that it goes against the trends that most people use to set up their ships. According to some people, you're not supposed to use tetryon weapons. I use tetryon weapons. You're not supposed to equip a torpedo. I equip a gravimetric photon torpedo up front. You're not supposed to mix cannons and beams. I put a set of dual heavy cannons and a set of dual beam arrays up front. You're not supposed to have all three teams (science, engineering, and tactical). I use all three teams with a maintenance engineer DOFF and a development lab scientist DOFF to reduce the cool-downs as well as improve effectiveness. In short, I do a lot of the things that, at least according to conventional thought, one is not supposed to do.
You want to make the Atrox work? Then you have to devise your own strategies, techniques, and designs independently of common trends. You have to be a heretic.
It's not that you can't or couldn't or anything like that, it's more that you can get more performance out of other things. Take tetryon weapons for example, using polarons and getting that proc to happen will lower shield regen by at least 12% as well as reducing energy weapon damage from that target by at least 24%.
As for mixing different types of weapons, again it's not that you can't or couldn't it's that you can get more use out of using something else instead especially with the limited tactical slots the atrox has.
A ship's performance depends on the quality of the player building her up and using her.
In PVP, there have been Atrox users that have been the unbreakable centerpieces of Fed teams, taking so much punishment from every possible direction, while throwing out hangar units and dispensing abilities from its immense Science capacity.
So again, a ship's performance depends on the player. You can put a good player who understands the game to use a "terrible" ship and he/she will make it shine. You put a worthless player in something like even a JHAS, then they're still a worthless player flying a powerful, super expensive ship and making it perform... worthlessly.
True (except the JHAS thing, that is REALLY not that great anymore, outclassed by many ships) which is why Jena can get that ship to silly numbers I can't =P
Having said that what a lot of people were pointing to is the disparity between a ship of it's price and what you got vs other things of either that price or of similar stats etc.
1) At one to the best of my knowledge during or after their deployment, No SR-71, B-2, or F-22 has their launch and return highlighted by bright blue flares! (AKA the Atrox hull)
2) The hirogen are centered around "The Hunt" as a religion thing. So they build ships around "The Hunt". (Even though not all of them are blood thirsty.) The rational of them having stealth is that's their lifestyle? Correct?
Cats are as good or better hunters by the simple fact any that are not have died of starvation! It then follow any living cat you see (above the age of kitten) know how to hunt as well or better as a matter of survival.
If the rational for the hirogen ships is a matter of the hunting being the center peace of their culture, Why does that not also apply to caitians?
Answers:
1) That's aesthetics only. The caitians designed it that way, so the ship is that way.
2) Yes. They are hunters, they live and die for the hunt. And like I said, their ships are designed to hunt down, stalk, and then subdue prey.
I think that's the part you're missing. The Caitians may be hunters, but that would be due to their feline nature, and NOT because they are a hunting based SOCIETY. Hunting is NOT their way of life. They live like everyone else does. They have a home planet (which the Hirogen do not seem to have), they are NOT nomads (which the Hirogen are), and they are part of a large alliance of planets (while the Hirogen are loners. In fact, it's been said on Memory Alpha that they only gather when there is a particularly nasty/resilient prey that they otherwise would not be able to take down on their own).
They did NOT design their ships to be hunters. They designed their ships to be combat ships. Hunting down, stalking, and then subduing targets are NOT the primary directives of their craft.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
It's not that you can't or couldn't or anything like that, it's more that you can get more performance out of other things. Take tetryon weapons for example, using polarons and getting that proc to happen will lower shield regen by at least 12% as well as reducing energy weapon damage from that target by at least 24%.
As for mixing different types of weapons, again it's not that you can't or couldn't it's that you can get more use out of using something else instead especially with the limited tactical slots the atrox has.
I'm not worried about my target's shield regeneration. The point is to destroy it before the regeneration even has a chance to have a meaningful effect. That's why I want the shields to come down quickly so that I can get on with the business of destruction. The tetryon weapons are useful for this.
Sure, I can get more dps if I replace the dual beam bank with more cannons, but then I lose my ability to use subsystem targeting to help take down shields (see above). I would also lose the 7.6% increase to tetryon damage from using two pieces of the Appropriated Munitions set and also lose some of my flow capacitor skill bonus which helps subsystem targeting to take shields down (it also helps the tetryon proc by the way).
Sure, I can replace the dual heavy cannons with a dual beam bank, but then I lose some of my DPS and can no longer use canon rapid fire to make my cannons and rear turrets fire faster together (and thus lose tetryon procs which I use to help bring down shields). A proc from a tetryon turret is just as good as a proc from a set of dual heavy cannons.
1) That's aesthetics only. The caitians designed it that way, so the ship is that way.
2) Yes. They are hunters, they live and die for the hunt. And like I said, their ships are designed to hunt down, stalk, and then subdue prey.[...] They did NOT design their ships to be hunters.[...]
Then they suck like no other at ship design on a few different levels. :P Point granted.
The defaults to the first point though. If both cultures have a equal claim to the ability (regardless if they use it or not), why can't the Atrox have stealth to make up it's faults? They're giving out new and shiny abilities that make sense to apply to older things, but ignoring older things.
(I'm 90% sure the hiogen ship's stealth is a ripoff code for the stalker fighter's innate ability anyway.)
Then they suck like no other at ship design on a few different levels. :P Point granted.
The defaults to the first point though. If both cultures have a equal claim to the ability (regardless if they use it or not), why can't the Atrox have stealth to make up it's faults? They're giving out new and shiny abilities that make sense to apply to older things, but ignoring older things.
(I'm 90% sure the hiogen ship's stealth is a ripoff code for the stalker fighter's innate ability anyway.)
Wait wait wait... why do both cultures have claim to said ability? Hirogens have hunting as their way of life. It's their entire society.
The caitians only had hunting as a means of survival until they developed replicator technology. Now (as far as we know) they don't hunt/have no need. Which is exactly the opposite of the Hirogens. They need to hunt. Without The Hunt, Hirogens are nothing.
And no, the Hirogen stealth is NOT a ripoff of the stalkers code. It's an entirely different ability/mechanic. Stalkers have a reduced signature. That means you can't detect them as easily from further out. But with points in SS, you can still see them.
Hirogen ships have their signature completely removed. You can see the ships coming, but you can't select them as targets at all, at least not until they get within a very VERY close range of you.
And as a final comment, older TRIBBLE gets ignored all the time. that's how MMOs work. They focus on the new shinies, the old things are just place-holders until you can get the new stuff. Look at the Galaxy R. There used to be hundreds of threads on it (until they all got merged into that insane uber thread), ALL of them asking for a change... ANYTHING to make it viable again. And look at what's happened as a result... Oh right, nothing.
Sucks, but that's how it is.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Wait wait wait... why do both cultures have claim to said ability? Hirogens have hunting as their way of life. It's their entire society.
The caitians only had hunting as a means of survival until they developed replicator technology. Now (as far as we know) they don't hunt/have no need. Which is exactly the opposite of the Hirogens. They need to hunt. Without The Hunt, Hirogens are nothing.[...]
My apologies, did I read too much into that?
[...]The Caitians may be hunters, but that would be due to their feline nature, and NOT because they are a hunting based SOCIETY.[...]
It's nature vs. nurture. Nature maybe altered, but only by outsides forces or concerted efforts. I understood that to be they still have the ability, with the question then becoming if they use it or not.
And it's the surviving caitian race's basic construction and psychology. If it were no so they would not be carnivores or feline. Carnivores are not cute and cuddly. They don't get their food by making a habit of asking nicely. [edit]Every carnivore from the first to the last is pre-equiped with the tools and methods to hunt and kill.[/edit] All of that is implicit in the description. It is so, or the description is in error.
If creation is your argument, the cat people would be designed to hunt and will remain so without direct understanding of how they were creation or intervention by the creator. If evolution is your argument, replicated haven't been around long enough to have a impact on their basic construction or psychology. The hold over from having to hunt the fields would still be true in both cases.
The Hirogen will always be the hirogen (or whatever the plot needs them to be), but not by necessity the same hirogen from moment to moment, year to year, or generation to generation. Episode description.
Edit: It is a choice or methodology for the hirogen. It's literally in the blood for caitians.
[...]Hirogen ships have their signature completely removed. You can see the ships coming, but you can't select them as targets at all, at least not until they get within a very VERY close range of you.[...]
... I'd have to have the two to compare side by side, but yea. That's how stalkers work. They usually just pop up soon because they are ordered to 'decloak' to fire at weapons range. Not much inside weapons range, but I can get my Atrox inside without trouble with MES. About 8-6Km is my normal detection range if I'm not trying to boost it.
[...]Sucks, but that's how it is.
Many Federation episodes have been revamped to improve the quality and pacing.
It's nature vs. nurture. Nature maybe altered, but only by outsides forces or concerted efforts. I understood that to be they still have the ability, with the question then becoming if they use it or not.
And it's the surviving caitian race's basic construction and psychology. If it were no so they would not be carnivores or feline. Carnivores are not cute and cuddly. They don't get their food by making a habit of asking nicely. [edit]Every carnivore from the first to the last is pre-equiped with the tools and methods to hunt and kill.[/edit] All of that is implicit in the description. It is so, or the description is in error.
If creation is your argument, the cat people would be designed to hunt and will remain so without direct understanding of how they were creation or intervention by the creator. If evolution is your argument, replicated haven't been around long enough to have a impact on their basic construction or psychology. The hold over from having to hunt the fields would still be true in both cases.
I think you missed the most important part of what I posted in reference to what you just said:
The caitians only had hunting as a means of survival until they developed replicator technology. Now (as far as we know) they don't hunt/have no need. Which is exactly the opposite of the Hirogens. They need to hunt. Without The Hunt, Hirogens are nothing.
Meaning that it doesn't matter if hunting is in the nature of Caitians. They use replicators, just like everyone else. As far as we know (due to the fact that there is little to no information on the Caitians themselves), they don't hunt at all.
Take your average New Yorker for example. Humans have hunting for food in their nature do they not? We (as a species) used to be nomads that hunted and killed our prey for survival. And yet you won't EVER see your average New Yorker go into Central Park with a bow and arrow and start shooting up pidgeons to eat. No. They go to the nearest grocery store and buy a chicken. Because now someone else does it. Or they farm their food. Or they use factory style food production. Long story short, they don't go out and kill their own food and eat it anymore.
It's exactly the same in the case of the Caitians. Once hunting was no longer a necessity for survival (through the development of technology, or industrialization period), they took the easier way and used the grocery store (in a sense).
The Hirogen will always be the hirogen (or whatever the plot needs them to be), but not by necessity the same hirogen from moment to moment, year to year, or generation to generation. Episode description.
Edit: It is a choice or methodology for the hirogen. It's literally in the blood for caitians.
Yes and no. It is the Hirogen way of life. They NEED to hunt. It doesn't matter if their prey is alive or photonic. They must hunt. The Hunt is their life.
And it's also "in their blood", not just the Caitians. The Hirogen are an apex species. 90% of apex species on Earth are predators. Examples here include but aren't limited to: sharks, whales, bears, lions, and even humans (but only to a point, again due to what I said earlier).
... I'd have to have the two to compare side by side, but yea. That's how stalkers work. They usually just pop up soon because they are ordered to 'decloak' to fire at weapons range. Not much inside weapons range, but I can get my Atrox inside without trouble with MES. About 8-6Km is my normal detection range if I'm not trying to boost it.
Actually I tend to be able to see stalkers from 25k out, just like everything else. Their MES is broken atm. But if you look at how it works, I am pretty sure it's a different mechanic, but we'd need to ask one of the coders for that.
A mission revamp was due to gameplay and story holes. There are no gameplay issues/story holes with the Atrox. She works just fine and doesn't alter the story.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
The Atrox and her unique pets seem to geared largely towards active anti-cloak countermeasures; Stalkers carry Thoron Devices to disable aux, Antiproton Sweeps providing AoE no-cloak (forcing healers to waste a ST so their cloakers can disengage) while being protected somewhat by placates, low energy signatures, and battlecloak. The Atrox itself can run multiple high end cloak counters like GW and CPB and is able to fit EPtA3 for huge stealthsight/science effectiveness. To play into this heavy anti-cloak bias, why not add a Heavy Thoron Charge Launcher console (the Kar'fi's Phase Shift was added at a later date, so why not do something similar for the Atrox)?
Console - Universal - Heavy Thoron Charge Launcher
Range: 2.5 - 10 km, 2.5 km AoE
3 minute CD
Fires a Heavy Thoron Charge at your selected target (friend or foe) or 7.5 kms dead ahead if not targetting anything. Deals moderate kinetic damage (equivalent to a heavy plasma torp 1 or 2), disables aux for several seconds and reduces accuracy by 20% for several seconds (10s base, increased by skills/aux?) to foes; adds a large amount of stealth to allies (+5k for 10 seconds), adds defense to allies (+15%ish for 10 seconds), does not affect self.
well until cryptic broke the shield system, the atrox was probably one of the best shield tankers that carried 2 hangarbays. Still even after the break it can still survive pretty well.
Currently my setup of using 10% proc tetryons comboed with elite tholian fighters does well.
I think you missed the most important part of what I posted in reference to what you just said[...]
I am to understand hirogen ships have their stealth abilities because stealth and the hunt is the focal point of their society? It would then follow they have and are developing these methods to coincide with that?
May case for the caitians is they don't have to develop anything. The technique and mentality are part of their nature and "birth right". In the same way no human child has to be taught to lie, argue, or react to spiders. The reactions are unique to each person, but that there is a reaction and that they follow the same guidelines is not unique.
Instincts are not what you feel, it's the reactions we have. My argument is that while caitian (or cats in general) may have to hone their hunting skill, none of them have to be taught what a hunt is. If that is so?
Then it would then follow caitians (being cat like) would have a equal claim to posses or construct the Atrox with stealth abilities.
[...]A mission revamp was due to gameplay and story holes. There are no gameplay issues/story holes with the Atrox. She works just fine and doesn't alter the story.
No gameplay issues?
Ignoring everything else I said?
The Atrox was released to be a federation carrier. It's selling point was it was the only federation carrier. The reason for it's creation and design in the game is no longer true. How could it not be broken if the cornerstone of it's design is now broken?
[...]To play into this heavy anti-cloak bias, why not add a Heavy Thoron Charge Launcher console (the Kar'fi's Phase Shift was added at a later date, so why not do something similar for the Atrox)?[...]
It's not a bad idea, and it's straight forward logical progression of what they already have. It probably should have that or something like it at the least. Edit: It should not stop there though.
My only problem with that is it still leaves the blue brick being a brick at the mercy of faster ships (read as everything else except the Vo'Quv), no significant defense against burst damage beyond what much faster and maneuverable ships already have, and ,while a offense, and not a significant one. Which fails the DGR rule:
The retrofit has ~33.333% less hull. It has ~8.333% greater shields. It has like weapons load, and a very close match in bridge officer configuration and power bonuses. The retrofit ,obviously, lacks hangers. It has about ~6.666% of the crew (A massive improvement under the current system.) Overall, it's a very close match to the Atrox.
Compared to the Atrox however?
It is vastly more maneuverable, thus not prey to the same failing of being a prey ship! The retrofit has a significant offensive in Sensor Analysis. Though one could make the case of it being a trade off with the hangers. It has a very significant defense in the Ablative Generator.
In summary, a pilot has a very good reason (in a perfectly balanced world) to think they'll survive and do well with Intrepid class ship. No such thing can easily be said for the Atrox.
I am to understand hirogen ships have their stealth abilities because stealth and the hunt is the focal point of their society? It would then follow they have and are developing these methods to coincide with that?
May case for the caitians is they don't have to develop anything. The technique and mentality are part of their nature and "birth right". In the same way no human child has to be taught to lie, argue, or react to spiders. The reactions are unique to each person, but that there is a reaction and that they follow the same guidelines is not unique.
Instincts are not what you feel, it's the reactions we have. My argument is that while caitian (or cats in general) may have to hone their hunting skill, none of them have to be taught what a hunt is. If that is so?
Then it would then follow caitians (being cat like) would have a equal claim to posses or construct the Atrox with stealth abilities.
You're not even arguing the same point as I am. I am coming from the fact that the Hirogen NEED to hunt. I never at any point said that Caitians were UNABLE to hunt. They just don't NEED to anymore. THAT is what I am arguing. The Hirogen NEED The Hunt. That is why they built their ships they way they did. To assist with The Hunt. To make The Hunt better.
The Atrox was released to be a federation carrier. It's selling point was it was the only federation carrier. The reason for it's creation and design in the game is no longer true. How could it not be broken if the cornerstone of it's design is now broken?
Does it have bugs? Does it have performance issues (by performance I mean does the ship not move when it's supposed to, shoot when it's supposed to, blah blah blah)? Does it have ANY issues other than you think it's underpowered?
The simple answer: Nope.
So gameplay wise, it's a perfect ship. It moves when you tell it to, it shoots when you tell it to, it's BOff abilities activate at your command, it's fighters launch and die at your command, so it's fine.
In summary, a pilot has a very good reason (in a perfectly balanced world) to think they'll survive and do well with Intrepid class ship. No such thing can easily be said for the Atrox.
I'd take the Atrox ANY day over the Intrepid. The Intrepid has a HORRIBLE BOff layout. It's so bad it doesn't even matter what the rest of it's stats are. I would NEVER fly one. The Atrox on the other hand, has a great BOff layout. It has decent stats, and is a wonderfully viable and often quite effective ship. It's not optimal, but it's not crippled. The Intrepid on the other hand... is crippled and not optimal... It's... well as Luke Skywalker would put it... "What a piece of junk!"
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
You're not even arguing the same point as I am. I am coming from the fact that the Hirogen NEED to hunt. I never at any point said that Caitians were UNABLE to hunt. They just don't NEED to anymore. THAT is what I am arguing. The Hirogen NEED The Hunt. That is why they built their ships they way they did. To assist with The Hunt. To make The Hunt better.
No I'm not arguing the same point. I'm arguing there is a equal alternate path that arrives at the same end point. Then using that to wonder why "If they have that, why can I not make the same claim?"
Does it have bugs?[...]
Hey, do I answer questions for you? I ask questions ,assume you agree, and continue on from that point. If you do not agree, then say so. I asked. I did not made a statement. I will go back to the question and retry if you don't agree. If I have done otherwise, please show me.
I ask questions because I am actually asking! :P May I ask the same in return?
My answer is yes, it is broken. The reason for it's being is no longer true. It then follows the guiding principle of it's design is no longer true. It then follows all decisions for it's balance are no longer valid (or as least as valid as they were). For example,
5 + A = 10 < -- the start. It is assumed 'A' is five.
B = 10
A + B = 15 < -- If A is not five, this is surely not correct.
No I'm not arguing the same point. I'm arguing there is a equal alternate path that arrives at the same end point. Then using that to wonder why "If they have that, why can I not make the same claim?"
Um... no not really. Caitians have a homeworld. They aren't nomadic. Their society is not based around a constant NEED to hunt things. There are so many differences between the two that you cannot compare them where hunting is concerned. There are FUNDAMENTAL differences. Not just straight out, he has this, he has that kinds of things. The differences are at a foundational level. Your point is moot by that simple fact.
Hey, do I answer questions for you? I ask questions ,assume you agree, and continue on from that point. If you do not agree, then say so. I asked. I did not made a statement. I will go back to the question and retry if you don't agree. If I have done otherwise, please show me.
I ask questions because I am actually asking! :P May I ask the same in return?
My answer is yes, it is broken. The reason for it's being is no longer true. It then follows the guiding principle of it's design is no longer true. It then follows all decisions for it's balance are no longer valid (or as least as valid as they were). For example,
5 + A = 10 < -- the start. It is assumed 'A' is five.
B = 10
A + B = 15 < -- If A is not five, this is surely not correct.
... What does this have to do with anything? The ship flies properly. It's stats aren't bugged, it works properly, and it does what it's supposed to. You're going off an RP PoV. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with RP.
If there are gameplay issues with the ship, what are they?
Without booting the game up to check, there is exactly a one slot difference.
X . X X . X . X X . X . X . X X . X . X
VS.
X . X X . X X . X . X . X X . X . X X
If the intrepid offends you that much, name another ship and I'll compare that to the Atrox.
Like baudl said, any ship that has 3 of an ens slot is horribly gimped. I invite you to name another ship that has the same BOff layout as the Atrox and similar capabilities, that is NOT a lockbox/fleet ship.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
[...]Like baudl said, any ship that has 3 of an ens slot is horribly gimped. I invite you to name another ship that has the same BOff layout as the Atrox and similar capabilities, that is NOT a lockbox/fleet ship.
(Seeing you both wish to ignore everything else and focus on that one change...)
One change can make a ship into glory or break a ship down to ruin and you want to tell me all is well with the world?
I am to understand hirogen ships have their stealth abilities because stealth and the hunt is the focal point of their society? It would then follow they have and are developing these methods to coincide with that?
May case for the caitians is they don't have to develop anything. The technique and mentality are part of their nature and "birth right". In the same way no human child has to be taught to lie, argue, or react to spiders. The reactions are unique to each person, but that there is a reaction and that they follow the same guidelines is not unique.
Instincts are not what you feel, it's the reactions we have. My argument is that while caitian (or cats in general) may have to hone their hunting skill, none of them have to be taught what a hunt is. If that is so?
Then it would then follow caitians (being cat like) would have a equal claim to posses or construct the Atrox with stealth abilities.
No gameplay issues?
Ignoring everything else I said?
The Atrox was released to be a federation carrier. It's selling point was it was the only federation carrier. The reason for it's creation and design in the game is no longer true. How could it not be broken if the cornerstone of it's design is now broken?
Truth be told, it still is the Federation's only carrier. The Jem'Hadar Dreadnought Carrier, Obelisk and Tholian Recluse are all cross faction ships.
Without Lobi, Lock Boxes or the Exchange, the Atrox is the only Carrier available to most Fed players who might not be able to afford any of the above.
Comments
A ship's performance depends on the quality of the player building her up and using her.
In PVP, there have been Atrox users that have been the unbreakable centerpieces of Fed teams, taking so much punishment from every possible direction, while throwing out hangar units and dispensing abilities from its immense Science capacity.
So again, a ship's performance depends on the player. You can put a good player who understands the game to use a "terrible" ship and he/she will make it shine. You put a worthless player in something like even a JHAS, then they're still a worthless player flying a powerful, super expensive ship and making it perform... worthlessly.
It's not that you can't or couldn't or anything like that, it's more that you can get more performance out of other things. Take tetryon weapons for example, using polarons and getting that proc to happen will lower shield regen by at least 12% as well as reducing energy weapon damage from that target by at least 24%.
As for mixing different types of weapons, again it's not that you can't or couldn't it's that you can get more use out of using something else instead especially with the limited tactical slots the atrox has.
True (except the JHAS thing, that is REALLY not that great anymore, outclassed by many ships) which is why Jena can get that ship to silly numbers I can't =P
Having said that what a lot of people were pointing to is the disparity between a ship of it's price and what you got vs other things of either that price or of similar stats etc.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Answers:
1) That's aesthetics only. The caitians designed it that way, so the ship is that way.
2) Yes. They are hunters, they live and die for the hunt. And like I said, their ships are designed to hunt down, stalk, and then subdue prey.
I think that's the part you're missing. The Caitians may be hunters, but that would be due to their feline nature, and NOT because they are a hunting based SOCIETY. Hunting is NOT their way of life. They live like everyone else does. They have a home planet (which the Hirogen do not seem to have), they are NOT nomads (which the Hirogen are), and they are part of a large alliance of planets (while the Hirogen are loners. In fact, it's been said on Memory Alpha that they only gather when there is a particularly nasty/resilient prey that they otherwise would not be able to take down on their own).
They did NOT design their ships to be hunters. They designed their ships to be combat ships. Hunting down, stalking, and then subduing targets are NOT the primary directives of their craft.
I'm not worried about my target's shield regeneration. The point is to destroy it before the regeneration even has a chance to have a meaningful effect. That's why I want the shields to come down quickly so that I can get on with the business of destruction. The tetryon weapons are useful for this.
Sure, I can get more dps if I replace the dual beam bank with more cannons, but then I lose my ability to use subsystem targeting to help take down shields (see above). I would also lose the 7.6% increase to tetryon damage from using two pieces of the Appropriated Munitions set and also lose some of my flow capacitor skill bonus which helps subsystem targeting to take shields down (it also helps the tetryon proc by the way).
Sure, I can replace the dual heavy cannons with a dual beam bank, but then I lose some of my DPS and can no longer use canon rapid fire to make my cannons and rear turrets fire faster together (and thus lose tetryon procs which I use to help bring down shields). A proc from a tetryon turret is just as good as a proc from a set of dual heavy cannons.
Then they suck like no other at ship design on a few different levels. :P Point granted.
The defaults to the first point though. If both cultures have a equal claim to the ability (regardless if they use it or not), why can't the Atrox have stealth to make up it's faults? They're giving out new and shiny abilities that make sense to apply to older things, but ignoring older things.
(I'm 90% sure the hiogen ship's stealth is a ripoff code for the stalker fighter's innate ability anyway.)
Wait wait wait... why do both cultures have claim to said ability? Hirogens have hunting as their way of life. It's their entire society.
The caitians only had hunting as a means of survival until they developed replicator technology. Now (as far as we know) they don't hunt/have no need. Which is exactly the opposite of the Hirogens. They need to hunt. Without The Hunt, Hirogens are nothing.
And no, the Hirogen stealth is NOT a ripoff of the stalkers code. It's an entirely different ability/mechanic. Stalkers have a reduced signature. That means you can't detect them as easily from further out. But with points in SS, you can still see them.
Hirogen ships have their signature completely removed. You can see the ships coming, but you can't select them as targets at all, at least not until they get within a very VERY close range of you.
And as a final comment, older TRIBBLE gets ignored all the time. that's how MMOs work. They focus on the new shinies, the old things are just place-holders until you can get the new stuff. Look at the Galaxy R. There used to be hundreds of threads on it (until they all got merged into that insane uber thread), ALL of them asking for a change... ANYTHING to make it viable again. And look at what's happened as a result... Oh right, nothing.
Sucks, but that's how it is.
My apologies, did I read too much into that?
It's nature vs. nurture. Nature maybe altered, but only by outsides forces or concerted efforts. I understood that to be they still have the ability, with the question then becoming if they use it or not.
And it's the surviving caitian race's basic construction and psychology. If it were no so they would not be carnivores or feline. Carnivores are not cute and cuddly. They don't get their food by making a habit of asking nicely. [edit]Every carnivore from the first to the last is pre-equiped with the tools and methods to hunt and kill.[/edit] All of that is implicit in the description. It is so, or the description is in error.
If creation is your argument, the cat people would be designed to hunt and will remain so without direct understanding of how they were creation or intervention by the creator. If evolution is your argument, replicated haven't been around long enough to have a impact on their basic construction or psychology. The hold over from having to hunt the fields would still be true in both cases.
The Hirogen will always be the hirogen (or whatever the plot needs them to be), but not by necessity the same hirogen from moment to moment, year to year, or generation to generation. Episode description.
Edit: It is a choice or methodology for the hirogen. It's literally in the blood for caitians.
... I'd have to have the two to compare side by side, but yea. That's how stalkers work. They usually just pop up soon because they are ordered to 'decloak' to fire at weapons range. Not much inside weapons range, but I can get my Atrox inside without trouble with MES. About 8-6Km is my normal detection range if I'm not trying to boost it.
Patch notes
:P
I think it's more or a "didn't get what I was saying".
I think you missed the most important part of what I posted in reference to what you just said:
Meaning that it doesn't matter if hunting is in the nature of Caitians. They use replicators, just like everyone else. As far as we know (due to the fact that there is little to no information on the Caitians themselves), they don't hunt at all.
Take your average New Yorker for example. Humans have hunting for food in their nature do they not? We (as a species) used to be nomads that hunted and killed our prey for survival. And yet you won't EVER see your average New Yorker go into Central Park with a bow and arrow and start shooting up pidgeons to eat. No. They go to the nearest grocery store and buy a chicken. Because now someone else does it. Or they farm their food. Or they use factory style food production. Long story short, they don't go out and kill their own food and eat it anymore.
It's exactly the same in the case of the Caitians. Once hunting was no longer a necessity for survival (through the development of technology, or industrialization period), they took the easier way and used the grocery store (in a sense).
Yes and no. It is the Hirogen way of life. They NEED to hunt. It doesn't matter if their prey is alive or photonic. They must hunt. The Hunt is their life.
And it's also "in their blood", not just the Caitians. The Hirogen are an apex species. 90% of apex species on Earth are predators. Examples here include but aren't limited to: sharks, whales, bears, lions, and even humans (but only to a point, again due to what I said earlier).
Actually I tend to be able to see stalkers from 25k out, just like everything else. Their MES is broken atm. But if you look at how it works, I am pretty sure it's a different mechanic, but we'd need to ask one of the coders for that.
A mission revamp was due to gameplay and story holes. There are no gameplay issues/story holes with the Atrox. She works just fine and doesn't alter the story.
Console - Universal - Heavy Thoron Charge Launcher
Range: 2.5 - 10 km, 2.5 km AoE
3 minute CD
Fires a Heavy Thoron Charge at your selected target (friend or foe) or 7.5 kms dead ahead if not targetting anything. Deals moderate kinetic damage (equivalent to a heavy plasma torp 1 or 2), disables aux for several seconds and reduces accuracy by 20% for several seconds (10s base, increased by skills/aux?) to foes; adds a large amount of stealth to allies (+5k for 10 seconds), adds defense to allies (+15%ish for 10 seconds), does not affect self.
Currently my setup of using 10% proc tetryons comboed with elite tholian fighters does well.
I am to understand hirogen ships have their stealth abilities because stealth and the hunt is the focal point of their society? It would then follow they have and are developing these methods to coincide with that?
May case for the caitians is they don't have to develop anything. The technique and mentality are part of their nature and "birth right". In the same way no human child has to be taught to lie, argue, or react to spiders. The reactions are unique to each person, but that there is a reaction and that they follow the same guidelines is not unique.
Instincts are not what you feel, it's the reactions we have. My argument is that while caitian (or cats in general) may have to hone their hunting skill, none of them have to be taught what a hunt is. If that is so?
Then it would then follow caitians (being cat like) would have a equal claim to posses or construct the Atrox with stealth abilities.
No gameplay issues?
Ignoring everything else I said?
The Atrox was released to be a federation carrier. It's selling point was it was the only federation carrier. The reason for it's creation and design in the game is no longer true. How could it not be broken if the cornerstone of it's design is now broken?
It's not a bad idea, and it's straight forward logical progression of what they already have. It probably should have that or something like it at the least. Edit: It should not stop there though.
My only problem with that is it still leaves the blue brick being a brick at the mercy of faster ships (read as everything else except the Vo'Quv), no significant defense against burst damage beyond what much faster and maneuverable ships already have, and ,while a offense, and not a significant one. Which fails the DGR rule:
I guess applied to STO that should be: Nobody flies a ship without a good reason to think they'll survive it.
This is a the long range science vessel
The retrofit has ~33.333% less hull. It has ~8.333% greater shields. It has like weapons load, and a very close match in bridge officer configuration and power bonuses. The retrofit ,obviously, lacks hangers. It has about ~6.666% of the crew (A massive improvement under the current system.) Overall, it's a very close match to the Atrox.
Compared to the Atrox however?
It is vastly more maneuverable, thus not prey to the same failing of being a prey ship! The retrofit has a significant offensive in Sensor Analysis. Though one could make the case of it being a trade off with the hangers. It has a very significant defense in the Ablative Generator.
In summary, a pilot has a very good reason (in a perfectly balanced world) to think they'll survive and do well with Intrepid class ship. No such thing can easily be said for the Atrox.
You're not even arguing the same point as I am. I am coming from the fact that the Hirogen NEED to hunt. I never at any point said that Caitians were UNABLE to hunt. They just don't NEED to anymore. THAT is what I am arguing. The Hirogen NEED The Hunt. That is why they built their ships they way they did. To assist with The Hunt. To make The Hunt better.
Does it have bugs? Does it have performance issues (by performance I mean does the ship not move when it's supposed to, shoot when it's supposed to, blah blah blah)? Does it have ANY issues other than you think it's underpowered?
The simple answer: Nope.
So gameplay wise, it's a perfect ship. It moves when you tell it to, it shoots when you tell it to, it's BOff abilities activate at your command, it's fighters launch and die at your command, so it's fine.
I'd take the Atrox ANY day over the Intrepid. The Intrepid has a HORRIBLE BOff layout. It's so bad it doesn't even matter what the rest of it's stats are. I would NEVER fly one. The Atrox on the other hand, has a great BOff layout. It has decent stats, and is a wonderfully viable and often quite effective ship. It's not optimal, but it's not crippled. The Intrepid on the other hand... is crippled and not optimal... It's... well as Luke Skywalker would put it... "What a piece of junk!"
No I'm not arguing the same point. I'm arguing there is a equal alternate path that arrives at the same end point. Then using that to wonder why "If they have that, why can I not make the same claim?"
Hey, do I answer questions for you? I ask questions ,assume you agree, and continue on from that point. If you do not agree, then say so. I asked. I did not made a statement. I will go back to the question and retry if you don't agree. If I have done otherwise, please show me.
I ask questions because I am actually asking! :P May I ask the same in return?
My answer is yes, it is broken. The reason for it's being is no longer true. It then follows the guiding principle of it's design is no longer true. It then follows all decisions for it's balance are no longer valid (or as least as valid as they were). For example,
5 + A = 10 < -- the start. It is assumed 'A' is five.
B = 10
A + B = 15 < -- If A is not five, this is surely not correct.
???
Without booting the game up to check, there is exactly a one slot difference.
X . X
X . X . X
X . X . X . X
X . X . X
VS.
X . X
X . X
X . X . X . X
X . X . X
X
If the intrepid offends you that much, name another ship and I'll compare that to the Atrox.
the problem is the 3rd ensign science...a 3rd ensign ANYTHING, be it tac, engi or sci downgrades any ship that has them.
never thought i'd say this, but there are actually ships that are worse than the atrox. Intrepid is one of them.
Um... no not really. Caitians have a homeworld. They aren't nomadic. Their society is not based around a constant NEED to hunt things. There are so many differences between the two that you cannot compare them where hunting is concerned. There are FUNDAMENTAL differences. Not just straight out, he has this, he has that kinds of things. The differences are at a foundational level. Your point is moot by that simple fact.
... What does this have to do with anything? The ship flies properly. It's stats aren't bugged, it works properly, and it does what it's supposed to. You're going off an RP PoV. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with RP.
If there are gameplay issues with the ship, what are they?
Like baudl said, any ship that has 3 of an ens slot is horribly gimped. I invite you to name another ship that has the same BOff layout as the Atrox and similar capabilities, that is NOT a lockbox/fleet ship.
Let me pick your brain.
(5 + 5 + 5) / 2 = 7.5
10 * 0.75 = 7.5
They are different in fundamental ways. They end at the same point. They are mathematically and logical equivalent statements.
If I want to stop at 7.5 then why is the difference between them moot?
(Seeing you both wish to ignore everything else and focus on that one change...)
One change can make a ship into glory or break a ship down to ruin and you want to tell me all is well with the world?
Truth be told, it still is the Federation's only carrier. The Jem'Hadar Dreadnought Carrier, Obelisk and Tholian Recluse are all cross faction ships.
Without Lobi, Lock Boxes or the Exchange, the Atrox is the only Carrier available to most Fed players who might not be able to afford any of the above.