I would argue that giving the C-Store Atrox a console would help. Maybe a stealth based one to go with the Stalker's stealth theme. Not a full on Cloak, or toggle, maybe just something to hide yourself for 15-20 seconds with a 2-3 minute cooldown.
While I don't fly a Cat Carrier myself (Still working on leveling a Sci Captain) based on the stats I see... It should perform well, given the right guy at the helm.
Compare the Fleet Atrox to the other carriers a Federation player has access too; The Thoilian Recluse Carrier, the Jem'Hadar Dreadnought Carrier and the Advanced Obelisk.
I chose to compare the Fleet Atrox to them as the 800 Lobi ships seemed to be built to be competitive in terms of stats to a Fleet Ship as opposed to a normal Rear/Vice Admiral ship.
The Atrox is the most Science oriented of the lot, barring a Tholian using it's Universal Commander spot for a Science officer. The two ships have comparable turn rates, hull ratings and shield mods while the Atrox gains a bit more power in Auxiliary. While the Tholian Reculse might beat it our, it's not by much and given the the Reculse is a Lobi ship it require much more investment to obtain then the Fleet Atrox.
The Jem'Hadar and Advanced Obelisk Carriers are somewhat less comparable; the Dreadnought isn't science based, and would in fact be a very poor science vessel; it is a tactical ship.
The Advanced Obelisk, meanwhile, is an Engineering ship with good science abilities. It's more like an Oddessy Cruiser with fighters.
Overall, based on stats I'd have to say the Fleet Atrox is competitive with the other carriers available. It's also easier to get, five Fleet Modules will cost you 7 million a piece on the exchange.. While I don't know what the Recluse goes for, the Dreadnought is often around 70 million, and last I checked the Advanced Obelisk was over 120 million. This is also not mentioning buying the five modules off the C-Store (2500 Zen)and/or buying a normal Atrox then the Fleet version (3000 Zen) compared to gaining 800 Lobi (X Amount of Master Keys and Lock Boxes either bought on the exchange for around 1 million a piece or bought on the C store for over 1000 Zen a piece when not on sale)
I'm being mean over small things. I have a point to the zeal though. If not completely true it is true enough.
If I can argue for change, I need something to argue with.
I could make a case for tachyon beam being underpowered. If I did that though I run into 1,001 different expectations of what tachyon beam does or people are willing to allow it to do to them. I tripped over a argument for retroactively giving the Atrox a console. This case has very little room to directly defeat it.
It can be ignored, agreed with, or denied, but it can't easily be argued with.
I'm holding to that case with a iron grip against all challengers. :P I hold only to that case with a iron grip because of all cases I or anyone else could make, it's the hardest to argue with, water down, or counter argue. Therefor, the best to hold to above all others.
My apologies to others, but I'm going to keep being a zealot on that point until that that case succeeds or is defeated.
Here's the thing though. There are other C-store ships that do NOT have a free console that comes with them. Also, again, you were comparing the C-store Atrox to lockbox and lobi ships with stats, where instead you should have been comparing it to the FLEET Atrox, because, again, lockbox and lobi ships are generally considered on par with (if not outright better in some cases) fleet ships.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I think you're downplaying the advantage universal slots give, also you missed frigate type pets from that table.
Why do I mention this?
Recluse is a helluva lot better with it's frigate pets, it used to be a meh ship but those elite mesh weavers...wow.
Course the JHDC has the most premium of premium frigate pets so that is kinda a moot point and the obelisk doesn't have any. Not that it needs them with the swarmers, those things were powerful when they all use Beam Overload.
Nearest ship I could think of that compares to the Atrox is the vo'quv, both have 1 Cmdr, 2 Lt.Com and Lt slots and they both have very similar consoles layouts.
Here's the thing though. There are other C-store ships that do NOT have a free console that comes with them.
Really? So how many RA/VA ships from the c-store have 0 special consoles AND/OR 0 special abilities built in outside of the normal for those types of ships?
Brel has Enhanced Battle cloak, which is fantastic.
Galaxy X has not only cloak but lance AND is supposed to have saucer seperation.
Defiant has cloak.
So which ships also come with no console and no special abilities outside of those given by a ship of it's class?
I think you're downplaying the advantage universal slots give, also you missed frigate type pets from that table.
Why do I mention this?
Recluse is a helluva lot better with it's frigate pets, it used to be a meh ship but those elite mesh weavers...wow.
Course the JHDC has the most premium of premium frigate pets so that is kinda a moot point and the obelisk doesn't have any. Not that it needs them with the swarmers, those things were powerful when they all use Beam Overload.
Nearest ship I could think of that compares to the Atrox is the vo'quv, both have 1 Cmdr, 2 Lt.Com and Lt slots and they both have very similar consoles layouts.
Really? So how many RA/VA ships from the c-store have 0 special consoles AND/OR 0 special abilities built in outside of the normal for those types of ships?
Brel has Enhanced Battle cloak, which is fantastic.
Galaxy X has not only cloak but lance AND is supposed to have saucer seperation.
Defiant has cloak.
So which ships also come with no console and now special abilities outside of those given by a ship of it's class?
There really isn't too much point in comparing the Atrox to the Vo'Quv; while they have very similar statistics you cannot use both on the same toon.
And I do think the C-Store Atrox should get a console. It doesn't NEED it, but i could use one.
Really? So how many RA/VA ships from the c-store have 0 special consoles AND/OR 0 special abilities built in outside of the normal for those types of ships?
What bpharma said. Here is a rundown of all federation C-Store ship(I'd do Romulan, or klingon, but I only have so much time in the day):
The Delta Class Shuttle: As far as I can tell it's only special for it's increase shields and previously being a free shuttle type. Yellowstone Class Runabout:Built in tractor beam and special engine type with EWP. Peregrine Attack Fighter:Additional weapons power and cannon rapid fire. Stalker Stealth Fighter:Additional weapons power, Stealth, and Thorn console. TOS Constitution Cruiser:Phases beam arrays that level with you. NX Class Light Escort:Grappler console Oberth Class Light Science Vessel:Enhanced plasma manifold. Science Vessel Refit:Photonic Displacement Escort Refit:Impulse burst. Cruiser Refit:Emissions seeking torpedo. Heavy Escort Refit:Point Defense system. Advanced Heavy Cruiser:Transwarp computer. Advanced Research Vessel:Tachyon Detection Field. Exploration Cruiser Refit:Antimatter Spread. Long Range Science Vessel Refit:Photonic Shockwave Torpedo. Tactical Escort Refit:Phaser Quad Cannons. Exploration Cruiser Retrofit:Saucers separation. Long Range Science Vessel Retrofit:Ablative Generator. Tactical Escort Retrofit:Cloak. Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit:Innate transwarp abilities. Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit:Tachyon Detection Grid. D'Kyr Science Vessel:Innate support craft. Dreadnought Cruiser:Cloak and phaser lance. Multi-Vector Advanced Escort:Multi-vector Assult Mode. Odsseies Chevron separation, worker bees, and Aquarius Escort. Heavy Escort Carrier:Photon Point Defence System. Assault Cruiser Retrofit:Metreon Gas Canister. Avenger Battle Cruiser:Variable Auto-Targeting Armerment
Caitian Atrox Carrier: ...
...
Noda.
The best counters that could be made would be it has stalkers, but all carrier except the Akria have their own fighter types. (Besides stalkers kind of suck. I love them, but they still sort of suck.) You could fault my wording of saying they don't all have "consoles", but that's just being contrary. They all have some form of unique ability, except the Atrox.
The delta flyer, but that used to be a free ship anyway. I'm not sure what it's doing on the list. The most could be said is it needs a console too.
There really isn't too much point in comparing the Atrox to the Vo'Quv; while they have very similar statistics you cannot use both on the same toon.
And I do think the C-Store Atrox should get a console. It doesn't NEED it, but i could use one.
I obviously disagree about not needing one. (If for no other reason then to combat the power creep.)
Originally I think it was a slightly tweaked Vo'Quv sold as a teir 5 ship. Originally you could have argued it didn't have a console and was a artificial teir 5 ship because it was the only federation carrier. That was what made it special.
That rational no longer applies.
There are at least three full carriers (four if your a romulan) and at least three half carrier available to the federation.
2000 Zen Boats Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit: Innate Transwarp
Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit: Tachyon Detection Grid
D'Kyr Science Vessel: Launch Support Craft
Exploration Cruiser Retrofit: Saucer Separation
Long Range Science Vessel Retrofit: Ablative Generator
Tactical Escort Retrofit: Cloaking Device Console B'Rel Bird-of-Prey Retrofit: Enhanced Battle Cloak (also on the Fleet B'rel)
Kar'Fi Battle Carrier: Phase Shift Generator, S'kul Fighter (can be used in any FDC/Carrier, but requires the character own a Kar'Fi to purchase them), & Fer'jai Frigate (can only be launched from the Kar'Fi) - Fleet Kar'Fi can do the pets as well
Marauder Flight-Deck Cruiser: Marauding Force (can be used in any FDC/Carrier, but requires the character own a Marauder to purchase them)
Varanus Support Vessel: Repair Platform
2500 Zen Boats Andorian Charal Escort: Wing Cannon Platforms & Kumari Phaser Wing Cannons
Andorian Khyzon Escort: Tachyon Induction Relay & Kumari Phaser Wing Cannons
Andorian Kumari Escort: Phaser Dispersal Array & Kumari Phaser Wing Cannons
Assault Cruiser Refit: Metreon Gas Canisters & Wide Angle Quantum Torpedo Launcher
Avenger: Variable Auto-Targeting Armament & can use Gal-X/Defiant Cloak (doesn't come with)
Caitian Atrox Carrier: only class capable of using Stalkers (but that also includes the Fleet version now)
Dreadnought Cruiser: Phaser Spinal Lance & Cloaking Device Console
Heavy Escort Carrier: Photon Torpedo Point Defense System
Multi-Mission Reconnaissance Explorer: Quantum Field Focus Controller & Aux Phaser Dual Heavy Cannons
Multi-Mission Strategic Explorer: Multidimensional Wave-Function Analysis Module & Aux Phaser Dual Heavy Cannons
Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer: Sympathetic Fermion Transceiver & Aux Phaser Dual Heavy Cannons
Multi-Vector Advanced Escort: Multi-Vector Assault Module
Odyssey Operations Cruiser: Chevron Separation
Odyssey Science Cruiser: Sensor Analysis & Work Bees
Odyssey Tactical Cruiser: Aquarius Escort Pet Bortasqu' Command Cruiser: Sensor Analysis & Subspace Snare
Bortasqu' Tactical Cruiser: Disruptor Autocannon
Bortasqu' War Cruiser: HoH'SuS Bird-of-Prey
Guramba Siege Destroyer: Siege Mode/Javelin
Mogh Battle Cruiser: Dynamic Defense Deployment System Ar'Kif Tactical Carrier Warbird Retrofit: Focused Singularity Modulator
D'deridex Warbird Battle Cruiser Retrofit: Projected Singularity
Dhelan Warbird Retrofit: Sabotage Probe
Falchion Dreadnought Warbird: Secondary Shields
Haakona Advanced Warbird: Dual Vector Separation
Scimitar Dreadnought Warbird: Cloaked Barrage
T'varo Light Warbird Retrofit: Enhanced Battle Cloak & Plasma Destabilizer (Fleet T'varo also has EBC)
Tulwar Dreadnought Warbird: Singularity Distributor Unit
So there are currently two ships that fall into the "category" of the Fleet version covers the Zen version or the Zen version does not come with something not otherwise available...
Caitian Atrox Carrier 2500 Zen
B'rel Bird-of-Prey Retrofit 2000 Zen
I say currently, because with ongoing rumors of other ships that may become available as Fleet vessels...another one or two might show up that fit that "category" - and - there's also the deal with the Corsair for 1500 Zen or getting a Corsair Retro for 200k FC instead. Sure, it's not a T5 Zen boat...but it's a Zen boat without the "shiny" so to speak.
And see, I think you'd get more folks agreeing based on this line of arguing...than comparing 9 Console Zen boats to 800 Lobi boats...jmho.
Ok ok ok... I am not arguing that this ship is not worthy of it's own console. Far from it, in fact, I do agree it could use one. It doesn't NEED it persay (since I know literally dozens of Atrox's that do just fine without it), but it certainly could benefit from having one.
I think my biggest beef was that OP was comparing a 9-console C-store ship to Lockbox and Lobi ships, and trying to say that for things that should be equivalent (which due to the nature of being a 9 console ship it already isn't) they aren't (which is also true since lobi and lockbox ships beat out most C-store ships anyways, regardless of console count).
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
[...]And see, I think you'd get more folks agreeing based on this line of arguing...than comparing 9 Console Zen boats to 800 Lobi boats...jmho.
Probably, but not my case. (I do thank you for adding the extra comparison though.) The case isn't limited to just 2,000 or 2,5000coin C-Store ships. It's that every paid for ship ,with few exceptions, have a console that can or will carry over to a fleet version.
[...]I think my biggest beef was that OP was comparing a 9-console C-store ship to Lockbox and Lobi ships[...]
:P
The same base logic applies though. They have consoles that can or will apply to fleet versions, so I still compare them on that criteria. The logic still applies that they came after and have a overall increase in stats (even when compared to the fleet Atrox).
Lobi > Lockbox > Fleet > 10 Console Zen > 9 Console Zen > RA (Free or 120k Dil) > 200k FC
So saying that the Atrox does not compare to an 800 Lobi...is kind of...duh! Even saying the Fleet Atrox does not compare...is kind of...duh! Folks know that...er...usually.
Asking that the Atrox actually compare...is kind of.../facepalm.
That the Atrox should compare to other 2500 Zen 9 Console ships on the other hand...is where you're going to find the folks agreeing with you.
Heck, you'll even find folks that say as a 2500 Zen ship - it should be a 10 Console ship!
2000 Zen for 9 Consoles...2500 Zen for 10 Consoles.
So you'd have folks arguing that the Atrox should either have a price drop of 500 Zen or that it should pick up a 10th Console as well as some sort of "shiny"...
...but that's still not going to be a case of either it or the Fleet Atrox being "equivalent" to an 800 Lobi ship.
(Aside from making the game a little more pay to win, which I think everyone should be fighting against?)
Because I can think of another progression. It's not cost, but age. The Atrox is at the bottom of the scale not because it's a 2,000 or 2,500 ship, but because it's the older ship.
Where the Atrox stands out as having a "fault" - is the lack of "shiny" compared to the RA Free (where the "shiny" would be what typically differentiates it from that level) and the lack of the "shiny" compared to the Kar'Fi (which has that "shiny" that differentiates it from the RA Free)...
Fleet Vessels have +10% hull, +10% shield mod, and +1 console compared to their non-Fleet versions in general. Lobi 'n Lockbox ships will have those stats (or better) while also having a "shiny" or two. There are 10 Console Zen ships that have near-Fleet level stats, and versus a straight up comparison might pull ahead - but slap the console from the non-Fleet in the Fleet...and yeah, slips back down.
I'm not sure how you could ask the question that you did - unless you were asking it rhetorically, since you've provided multiple examples yourself...of where X ship is better than Y ship is better than Z ship.
Perhaps it is tied into the desire for the game not to be P2W, eh? In the end, the game is not P2W. Heck, at this point it's not even P2WFaster...we've moved so far beyond the content with free items - even P2WF/P4A/etc/etc/etc doesn't exist.
Unless one is talking about PvP - where it is obviously P2W.*
PvE - you don't even need T5 ships to do...
*edit: Felt the need to clarify that. Yes, there's skill, luck of the roll, and all the rest - but if you were fighting yourself and you were in a RA ship with mission gear fighting yourself in a Lockbox ship that's geared out the wahzoo...what do you think is going to happen, eh? Yep, thus - imo - PvP is obviously P2W...paying for an advantage...etc, etc, etc.
When the Atrox came out back in May 2012...the date in STO was 2409.
When the Recluse came out back in July 2012...the date in STO was 2409.
When the Jem Dread came out back in January 2013...the date in STO was 2409.
When the Obelisk came out back in October 2013...the date in STO was 2409.
Back when the game launched in 2010...the date in STO was 2409.
Login right now...it's 2409. Login a week from now...it's 2409.
"Age" doesn't exist in that sense...and that's one of the reasons so many folks in the Federation Shipyards and KDF Fleetyards continue to ask Cryptic to update some of the "real world" older vessels to match some of the newer vessels...because it was 2409 then and it's 2409 now. "Age" shouldn't matter...unless we're talking about actual older ships...like comparing a TOS Connie to an Odyssey.
Lol VD, while it's true you don't need any of it to actually complete the content it doesn't exactly mean that ships shouldn't be sorta somewhere near equal for price paid or time invested etc.
I think the nearest comparison to the the voquv if only because it has the same level of bridge officer stations, hangar bays, hell the fleet versions even have the same console slots and the same price...wait no the voquv is one module cheaper.
They also have unique pets that may only be used on themselves. Except the 9 console voquv is free. Huh.
Problem is there is no straight comparison of it to any other carrier in the same price frame, either things that are similar are free or cheaper or things that are in the same price frame have shinies and that's without even bringing lobi and lockbox stuff into it.
Lol VD, while it's true you don't need any of it to actually complete the content it doesn't exactly mean that ships shouldn't be sorta somewhere near equal for price paid or time invested etc.
But that's where I've been asking for an overall equality, no? 2500 Zen boats should have the same objective value/worth - can't do anything about the subjective value/worth that exists...but if you've got X & Y ships for 2500 Zen that have 10 Consoles and then Z for 2500 as well, but only 9 Consoles...tada - inconsistency and issue!
I think the nearest comparison to the the voquv if only because it has the same level of bridge officer stations, hangar bays, hell the fleet versions even have the same console slots and the same price...wait no the voquv is one module cheaper.
They also have unique pets that may only be used on themselves. Except the 9 console voquv is free. Huh.
That's where the "premium" aspect comes into play. Feds have to pay for a Carrier much like the KDF have to pay for a Sci Vessel. KDF get Carriers for free, Feds get Sci Vessels for free. So there's a "premium" charge involved. Even taking that into account though...it's an inconsistent charge, imo.
Problem is there is no straight comparison of it to any other carrier in the same price frame, either things that are similar are free or cheaper or things that are in the same price frame have shinies and that's without even bringing lobi and lockbox stuff into it.
Doesn't have to be a Carrier, though - nimo - it just has to be compared to other 2500 Zen ships...where you run into the issues of 2500 Zen 10 vs. 9 Consoles before you even get to the lack of the "shiny" on the Atrox.
Of course, something to consider - that folks probably don't want to consider would be...
The price of everything "should" have gone up. The 2k Zen somebody paid a couple of years ago for a boat...should probably be at 2.5k or higher now. 2.5k boats...3k or higher. Etc, etc, etc. Cause prices go up!
But...what Cryptic has done (just speculation, but logical) is something that folks complain about - they've introduced all these other things that generate revenue for them. Tada, they're subsidizing keeping the prices down on other things...eh? If not for Lockboxes and all the rest...then the prices of other things would have had to go up. Through selling all the rest, they can keep the prices down on other things.
But...taking that into account - well, there's still going to be inconsistencies. A 2 year old 2.5k Zen boat should be as good as a 2.5k Zen boat coming out tomorrow. It should provide something new and interesting - fill a need or desire...but all in all, it should be balanced. Want more - well, that's where there will be Fleet ships, Lockbox ships, Lobi ships!
I'm not sure how you could ask the question that you did - unless you were asking it rhetorically, since you've provided multiple examples yourself...of where X ship is better than Y ship is better than Z ship.
I said I based my judgement on historical power creep. I mean from one ship release to the next. You reply: "So saying that the Atrox does not compare to an 800 Lobi...is kind of...duh!"
I'm doing that request for clarification thing. :P I should ask hereticknight085 the same question. Consider your self asked, sir. I'm trying to understand why the cost is the important factor to you.
"Lobi > Lockbox > Fleet > 10 Console Zen > 9 Console Zen > RA (Free or 120k Dil) > 200k FC"
I keep being told I should follow this hierarchy after I give my logic why I don't. My current case as it stands isn't enough to win the day apparently. I need to acknowledge defeat, adjust it, or find out why it's not understood. So, I ask a question. :P
What I have to say in counter depends on why someone thinks: "Lobi > Lockbox > Fleet > 10 Console Zen > 9 Console Zen > RA (Free or 120k Dil) > 200k FC"
[...]they've introduced all these other things that generate revenue for them. ... A 2 year old 2.5k Zen boat should be as good as a 2.5k Zen boat coming out tomorrow.[...]
That's what bothers me. It's bad craftsmanship which is what really offends me, and a downward spiral. If the selling point is it has to be more powerfully and shiny then the last it will always have to be more powerful and shiny then the last. They're not up-keeping the system to keep up with the strain of such a ethic. [edit]Which is my problem with the Atrox.[/edit] (Surely I'm not the only one that sees this as corrosive and toxic?)
I said I based my judgement on historical power creep. I mean from one ship release to the next. You reply: "So saying that the Atrox does not compare to an 800 Lobi...is kind of...duh!"
I'm doing that request for clarification thing. :P I should ask hereticknight085 the same question. Consider your self asked, sir. I'm trying to understand why the cost is the important factor to you.
"Lobi > Lockbox > Fleet > 10 Console Zen > 9 Console Zen > RA (Free or 120k Dil) > 200k FC"
I keep being told I should follow this hierarchy after I give my logic why I don't. My current case as it stands isn't enough to win the day apparently. I need to acknowledge defeat, adjust it, or find out why it's not understood. So, I ask a question. :P
What I have to say in counter depends on why someone thinks: "Lobi > Lockbox > Fleet > 10 Console Zen > 9 Console Zen > RA (Free or 120k Dil) > 200k FC"
When somebody goes in to buy a Suburban, they do not expect to drive out in a Spark...do they?
Okay, so folks don't like car analogies - and - somebody would say, hey - those are different kinds of cars! Okay, the Equinox starts at ~$24k. When somebody goes in to buy a Suburban, they do not expect to drive out in an Equinox...do they?
Okay, still not liking the car thing?
Positron Deflector Array Mk X Value: 45,000 Positron Deflector Array Mk X Value: 59,850 Positron Deflector Array Mk X Value: 74,700 Positron Deflector Array Mk X Value: 100,000
Which one is better? The one with a value of 45k or the one with a value of 100k?
800 Lobi: the average amount of Lobi per Lockbox is ~5. Each Lockbox requires a Key. Though a Key can be purchased for EC or with Zen bought with Dil, the Key cannot exist unless the Zen is purchased at some point. So Zen will be the common currency. So again, with an average of ~5 Lobi per Lockbox - we can see around how much Zen an 800 Lobi ship might cost.
We'll even take a look at both sale and non-sale prices on the Keys, eh?
Sale Price: 10 Keys for 956 Zen. So if we need 800 Lobi, at 5 a Lockbox, we need 160 Keys. We would need 16 of the 10-packs. We'd need 15,296 Zen.
Non-Sale Price: 10 Keys for 1125 Zen. So if we need 800 Lobi, at 5 a Lockbox, we need 160 Keys. We would need 16 of the 10-packs. We'd need 18,000 Zen.
Lockbox: well, there's no pretty numbers here. There's a small chance...miniscule...and it's chance, so it's random. You could get a ship on your first Lockbox you could open a thousand a not get one. This should obviously be the most expensive, no? You have to consider the sheer number of folks that are popping a few boxes vs. the number of folks that will open 160 boxes.
Then you've got the 2500 Zen and 2000 Zen ships...er...works done for us.
Then there are the Free RA (120k Dil) ships. At the current stable exchange rate of 128 Dil for 1 Zen, those ships are ~938 Zen.
With the 200k FC ships, one might be tempted to say the easiest way to get 200k FC is to spend 200k Dil...so these ships should be ~1563 Zen ships. But just because that would be the easiest way, doesn't mean it's the most cost-effective way. There are countless ways to generate FC...almost all of them not requiring any Zen.
So yes...it is a hierarchy based on if you pay more for something...it's better.
Obviously though, folks will hit up the Exchange and can buy Lobi ships for cheaper than Lockbox ships. I've always found that funny, personally. Not always the case, mind you...but I've always found it funny. Usually attribute it to the lower price being subsidized by everything else that was gained popping those 160 or so boxes.
Check these current prices out, eh?
Apex 80m vs. Hunter 86.1m
Recluse 85m vs. Weaver 72m
Bulwark 388m vs. Bastion 69m
Dreadnought 87.5m vs. JHEC 92m
Adapted Battle Cruiser 87.9m vs. Adapted Des 77.5m
Monbosh 84m vs. S'golth 55.9m
And it would appear (as an observation, not a fact) that folks may have finally started to realize what was going on...or it could just be the market is saturated with choices, etc, etc, etc.
So while you have an aversion to this being a P2W game...well, again - is VR Mk XII better than Rare Mk XII? Does Rare Mk XII cost more? Yep...heck, take a look at the cost of the Romulan Plasma weapons compared to either Plasma or Disruptor, eh?
That's what bothers me. It's bad craftsmanship which is what really offends me, and a downward spiral. If the selling point is it has to be more powerfully and shiny then the last it will always have to be more powerful and shiny then the last. They're not up-keeping the system to keep up with the strain of such a ethic. [edit]Which is my problem with the Atrox.[/edit] (Surely I'm not the only one that sees this as corrosive and toxic?)
That's a more complicated case to make though. :P
But that's where it still being 2409, the level cap still being 50...four years later...is problematic, imho - from a business perspective.
"Real World" requires newer and better things. Say you go out to buy a GPU...and you have $65-70 to spend (money's tight, economy sucks, VD's lame example).
However, if one wanted DX11.2 instead of DX10.1 - OpenGL 4.3 instead of OpenGL 3.0 - SM 5.0 instead of SM 4.1 - well, then their choice is obvious...which card is better.
There is the expectation that $100 today will get you something better than $100 would have four years ago. There is the expectation that 2500 Zen will get you something better today than it would two years ago...
...and I don't agree with that. Because it's not "Real World" - it's still 2409. 2500 Zen today should get you the same as two years ago...cause it's still then, even though it is now.
Now...if we had advanced in time in the game - had the level cap increased - etc, etc, etc...then yeah, I could see them going the route of perhaps lowering prices/raising prices. Instead, they've kept things the same - boosted the stats...and have been giving away some of the older stuff that folks don't buy as much, eh?
Say I bought myself 2500 Zen for the holidays and I was going to buy a Fed ship (given I have no Fed toons, should tell you the odds of my buying 2500 Zen - ahem)...the following are the 2500 Zen ships available to Feds.
And perusing them...I start to wonder if Cryptic is smoking the Cracktic...seriously. There's a mix of 9 and 10 console ships - there's near Fleet level ships - they're all over the place...but they're all the same 2500 Zen? Put the crack pipe down, Cryptic...and step away...slowly!
It's not a release age thing...the Odyssey boats came out long before the Avenger. It's a smokin' dat crack thing! Seriously...
Hence the reason that I say a strong case can be made for the Atrox based on its 2500 Zen price point. Heck, it's also why I say 9 console ships should be 2000 Zen and the 10 console 2500 Zen...cause those 2500 Zen 9 console ships match up much better against their 2000 Zen 9 console cousins than their 2500 Zen 10 console siblings.
Even at 2k Zen for the Atrox, it would still be missing its shiny for being a 2k Zen boat.
And that's how I would argue (heh, and I have argued in the past for a few boats) the matter...
...I wouldn't expect to go into my local Chevy dealer, pay for a Spark and drive out with a Corvette (starting at $51k).
Not quite the answer I was looking for. That was a answer to the question I asked. (Sorry for putting you on the spot, btw, VD.)
Ok, you pay more, you get more. (At least in theory anyway. :P) I have no probably with that concept. We all have to eat. Food is good. Better food is better.
I was looking for a reference of where you got the idea to use that cost to rate ships. (To check if that was actually a state plainly the goal of the development team.) -OR- Why it was cost that you ranked ships by. Instead of say age, coolness, how pretty it was, or performance.
I look at cost as water mark to how good or bad something is and rebel because I think that's Toxic. With a capital 'T', and lethally so. Why? You should be able to work to get better things. Just "better things" should never be the point. Making that the focus is a non-stop quest that ends when it drives you into the ground in hopelessness. I don't want to go down that path, and I don't want to watch someone else do it.
How does that end poorly? That's what started and allows my case. The never ending quest to only care about the next shiny thing is what left the Atrox to gather dust, and let's me shout "Hey! Why doesn't the Atrox have a console like everything else!?"
When I said they're not doing upkeep? I didn't mean hardware or tech wise. I mean purely from a rules of the game point of view. I should admit that is or has changed at least a little for the better though.
The hirogen ships have build in stealth. Ok, they're hunters, sure, why not? It's shiny!
...
The Atrox. Designed by cats for stealth fighters. Something big slow and clumsy that could actually have a very good argument for needing stealth. Instead it's a big blue target that acts as a targeting beacon for it's fighter's location ...
The hirogen ships have build in stealth. Ok, they're hunters, sure, why not? It's shiny!
...
The Atrox. Designed by cats for stealth fighters. Something big slow and clumsy that could actually have a very good argument for needing stealth. Instead it's a big blue target that acts as a targeting beacon for it's fighter's location ...
...
Anyone want to try to justify that?
Imagine a pool of water.
Drop a pebble into the water. Tiny ripples result that quickly dissipate among the sheer volume of water, right?
Now drop a whale into the water. Then go dry yourself off and refill the pool of water and clean up what's left of the whale.
The pebble was your stalker fighters. They give off a small energy and physical signature that is easy to mask. They don't generate a large amount of ANYTHING due to their small size and mass. Therefore, it's easy to hide.
The whale was your carrier. It's huge. It has a HUGE energy and physical signature. It generates a tremendous amount of energy, movement, etc. Lots of mass, lots to shield, huge engine output, etc. If you stealthed it, it would be like trying to cover a pyramid with a baby blanket. It just won't work.
Besides, none of the playable true carriers in game have any kind of stealth tech (not even the Vo'Quv can cloak, it's the only KLINGON ship that can't, only exception to that rule is the Assimilated Carrier in CSE).
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
[...]Besides, none of the playable true carriers in game have any kind of stealth tech (not even the Vo'Quv can cloak, it's the only KLINGON ship that can't, only exception to that rule is the Assimilated Carrier in CSE).
Thanks for putting some thought into it. :P
That's not entirely true though. Even my whale can be hidden with mask energy signature from a bridge officer or the (honor guard/adapted MACO) space set. Which oddly enough (beyond MES +def) is it's sole redeeming grace to me. My big blue brick isn't instantly seen and zeroed in on with MES. The Atrox is a whale and a eye catcher.
The question then becomes why green a light stealth fighters that can only be launched or be in proximity giant targeting beacon? It's self defeating. (Like the photonic displacer console.) The hirogen found a way with Apex Heavy Battlecruiser isn't exactly a small ship.
They even made the color and shape of a "stealth" carrier stand out! (Not that I'm knocking the color pallete. It is sort of pretty.)
It's another inconsistency that would be nice if it was fixed. One way being stealth systems tweeked so I can't point to this anymore and say "HA! See!". The other the Atrox gets some kind of console, stealth, or something to set it apart. (Thought I guess I did turn my nose up at that indirection when I said "If we get a console, I'd rather it be something new." oops)
Edit: There is a reason all the apex predator's fur blends with their surrounding and is not few shades of the background with glowing lights. :P
Caitians aren't a hunter based society. They don't chase prey across light years just for sport and as a way of life. They're cats in the federation. HUGE difference between them and the Hirogen.
The Hirogen LIVE for the hunt! The Hunt (yes, I capitalized it for a reason) to them is their way of life. Without it, they are nothing. THAT is why all of their ships are built to hunt and subdue prey. So I don't think you should be comparing the two.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Caitians aren't a hunter based society. They don't chase prey across light years just for sport and as a way of life. They're cats in the federation. HUGE difference between them and the Hirogen.
The Hirogen LIVE for the hunt! The Hunt (yes, I capitalized it for a reason) to them is their way of life. Without it, they are nothing. THAT is why all of their ships are built to hunt and subdue prey. So I don't think you should be comparing the two.
Yes, the Hirogen hunt as a religious thing, if I remember correctly. Each Hirogen chooses to hunt though. As I recall it's under the beilief their world and/or race will die if they forgo "The Hunt".
Felines hunt as a matter of being able to eat. Them choosing to completely ignore that means, there are no living carnivores that don't know how to hunt in some way. :P I don't agree for the same reason, but I think you are right, hereticknight085, I probably shouldn't compare the too. :P
Part of the lore of why so many of starfleet security's personal are caitain is that little factoid, or the Feline Instinct trait. As a matter of lore the caitian atrox carrier was designed and build by caitians specifically because of their technical or doctrine expertise.
Yes, the Hirogen hunt as a religious thing, if I remember correctly. Each Hirogen chooses to hunt though. As I recall it's under the beilief their world and/or race will die if they forgo "The Hunt".
Felines hunt as a matter of being able to eat. Them choosing to completely ignore that means, there are no living carnivores that don't know how to hunt in some way. :P I don't agree for the same reason, but I think you are right, hereticknight085, I probably shouldn't compare the too. :P
Part of the lore of why so many of starfleet security's personal are caitain is that little factoid, or the Feline Instinct trait. As a matter of lore the caitian atrox carrier was designed and build by caitians specifically because of their technical or doctrine expertise.
Yeah, I was thinking the same.
Part of the reason might be balance, or perceived balance. If you can cloak/hide the Atrox for awhile you can just spit fighters/drones ect out until what you want to blow up blows up.
The other is the Atrox is very heavy in shields and hull, and is a bit of a tank as well.
Also, the Hirogen are obsessed with the Hunt and build their ships for the Hunt. The Catians hunt, yes, but they don't make it into a religion. The Atrox is build for war, and give support and launch fighters.
Even if I were willing to argue it's design goal was destruction and not parody? Here is the description:
To deal with the increased threat of Klingons and the tactical advantage they have with their carriers ships, the federation called upon their member worlds for assistance.
In response, the caitian made their fierce Atrox carrier available to star fleet. A true carrier, the Atrox was updated by the caitian and starfleet corps of engineers that gave it some abilities of a science vessel, including subsytem targeting and bonuses to shield and auxiliary power. These abilities allow the Atrox to support it's fighters as well as other ships in the fleet.
The Atrox comes standard with two hangerbays, Each stalked with caitian stalker stealth fighters. These fighters mask their energy signature and are equipped with tetryon pulse cannons and a Thoron device. [...]
That still leave two outstanding issue:
1) At one to the best of my knowledge during or after their deployment, No SR-71, B-2, or F-22 has their launch and return highlighted by bright blue flares! (AKA the Atrox hull)
2) The hirogen are centered around "The Hunt" as a religion thing. So they build ships around "The Hunt". (Even though not all of them are blood thirsty.) The rational of them having stealth is that's their lifestyle? Correct?
Cats are as good or better hunters by the simple fact any that are not have died of starvation! It then follow any living cat you see (above the age of kitten) know how to hunt as well or better as a matter of survival.
If the rational for the hirogen ships is a matter of the hunting being the center peace of their culture, Why does that not also apply to caitians?
I think I know why a lot of people seem to have problems with the Atrox. Before I explain, I will say that I was recently parsed in The Conduit elite in my regular, non-fleet Atrox by a hull-melting group of people from the DOFFJOBS channel. I came out with 6.8k dps rating, and I am sure that it would have been higher if the rest of the group would not have been so good that they were killing things before I even got to fire on them. Now, 6.8k is not that high compared to some of the numbers that other people put out, but keep in mind that I do this with full heals (science team 1, engineering team 2, hazard emitters 2, transfer shield strength 3), good crowd control (136 graviton generators skill with no console), and good debuff/disable ability (142 flow capacitors with no console).
The Atrox is a contrarian's ship. By that I mean that it goes against the trends that most people use to set up their ships. According to some people, you're not supposed to use tetryon weapons. I use tetryon weapons. You're not supposed to equip a torpedo. I equip a gravimetric photon torpedo up front. You're not supposed to mix cannons and beams. I put a set of dual heavy cannons and a set of dual beam arrays up front. You're not supposed to have all three teams (science, engineering, and tactical). I use all three teams with a maintenance engineer DOFF and a development lab scientist DOFF to reduce the cool-downs as well as improve effectiveness. In short, I do a lot of the things that, at least according to conventional thought, one is not supposed to do.
You want to make the Atrox work? Then you have to devise your own strategies, techniques, and designs independently of common trends. You have to be a heretic.
Comments
Was Feb of last year I believe...
While I don't fly a Cat Carrier myself (Still working on leveling a Sci Captain) based on the stats I see... It should perform well, given the right guy at the helm.
Compare the Fleet Atrox to the other carriers a Federation player has access too; The Thoilian Recluse Carrier, the Jem'Hadar Dreadnought Carrier and the Advanced Obelisk.
I chose to compare the Fleet Atrox to them as the 800 Lobi ships seemed to be built to be competitive in terms of stats to a Fleet Ship as opposed to a normal Rear/Vice Admiral ship.
So, starting with base stats...
Quick little comparison chart here...
The Atrox is the most Science oriented of the lot, barring a Tholian using it's Universal Commander spot for a Science officer. The two ships have comparable turn rates, hull ratings and shield mods while the Atrox gains a bit more power in Auxiliary. While the Tholian Reculse might beat it our, it's not by much and given the the Reculse is a Lobi ship it require much more investment to obtain then the Fleet Atrox.
The Jem'Hadar and Advanced Obelisk Carriers are somewhat less comparable; the Dreadnought isn't science based, and would in fact be a very poor science vessel; it is a tactical ship.
The Advanced Obelisk, meanwhile, is an Engineering ship with good science abilities. It's more like an Oddessy Cruiser with fighters.
Overall, based on stats I'd have to say the Fleet Atrox is competitive with the other carriers available. It's also easier to get, five Fleet Modules will cost you 7 million a piece on the exchange.. While I don't know what the Recluse goes for, the Dreadnought is often around 70 million, and last I checked the Advanced Obelisk was over 120 million. This is also not mentioning buying the five modules off the C-Store (2500 Zen)and/or buying a normal Atrox then the Fleet version (3000 Zen) compared to gaining 800 Lobi (X Amount of Master Keys and Lock Boxes either bought on the exchange for around 1 million a piece or bought on the C store for over 1000 Zen a piece when not on sale)
Here's the thing though. There are other C-store ships that do NOT have a free console that comes with them. Also, again, you were comparing the C-store Atrox to lockbox and lobi ships with stats, where instead you should have been comparing it to the FLEET Atrox, because, again, lockbox and lobi ships are generally considered on par with (if not outright better in some cases) fleet ships.
Why do I mention this?
Recluse is a helluva lot better with it's frigate pets, it used to be a meh ship but those elite mesh weavers...wow.
Course the JHDC has the most premium of premium frigate pets so that is kinda a moot point and the obelisk doesn't have any. Not that it needs them with the swarmers, those things were powerful when they all use Beam Overload.
Nearest ship I could think of that compares to the Atrox is the vo'quv, both have 1 Cmdr, 2 Lt.Com and Lt slots and they both have very similar consoles layouts.
In fact there a nice comparison chart here: http://sto.gamepedia.com/Caitian_Atrox_Carrier
Edit:
Really? So how many RA/VA ships from the c-store have 0 special consoles AND/OR 0 special abilities built in outside of the normal for those types of ships?
Brel has Enhanced Battle cloak, which is fantastic.
Galaxy X has not only cloak but lance AND is supposed to have saucer seperation.
Defiant has cloak.
So which ships also come with no console and no special abilities outside of those given by a ship of it's class?
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
There really isn't too much point in comparing the Atrox to the Vo'Quv; while they have very similar statistics you cannot use both on the same toon.
And I do think the C-Store Atrox should get a console. It doesn't NEED it, but i could use one.
What bpharma said. Here is a rundown of all federation C-Store ship(I'd do Romulan, or klingon, but I only have so much time in the day):
The Delta Class Shuttle: As far as I can tell it's only special for it's increase shields and previously being a free shuttle type.
Yellowstone Class Runabout:Built in tractor beam and special engine type with EWP.
Peregrine Attack Fighter:Additional weapons power and cannon rapid fire.
Stalker Stealth Fighter:Additional weapons power, Stealth, and Thorn console.
TOS Constitution Cruiser:Phases beam arrays that level with you.
NX Class Light Escort:Grappler console
Oberth Class Light Science Vessel:Enhanced plasma manifold.
Science Vessel Refit:Photonic Displacement
Escort Refit:Impulse burst.
Cruiser Refit:Emissions seeking torpedo.
Heavy Escort Refit:Point Defense system.
Advanced Heavy Cruiser:Transwarp computer.
Advanced Research Vessel:Tachyon Detection Field.
Exploration Cruiser Refit:Antimatter Spread.
Long Range Science Vessel Refit:Photonic Shockwave Torpedo.
Tactical Escort Refit:Phaser Quad Cannons.
Exploration Cruiser Retrofit:Saucers separation.
Long Range Science Vessel Retrofit:Ablative Generator.
Tactical Escort Retrofit:Cloak.
Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit:Innate transwarp abilities.
Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit:Tachyon Detection Grid.
D'Kyr Science Vessel:Innate support craft.
Dreadnought Cruiser:Cloak and phaser lance.
Multi-Vector Advanced Escort:Multi-vector Assult Mode.
Odsseies Chevron separation, worker bees, and Aquarius Escort.
Heavy Escort Carrier:Photon Point Defence System.
Assault Cruiser Retrofit:Metreon Gas Canister.
Avenger Battle Cruiser:Variable Auto-Targeting Armerment
Caitian Atrox Carrier: ...
...
Noda.
The best counters that could be made would be it has stalkers, but all carrier except the Akria have their own fighter types. (Besides stalkers kind of suck. I love them, but they still sort of suck.) You could fault my wording of saying they don't all have "consoles", but that's just being contrary. They all have some form of unique ability, except the Atrox.
The delta flyer, but that used to be a free ship anyway. I'm not sure what it's doing on the list. The most could be said is it needs a console too.
I obviously disagree about not needing one. (If for no other reason then to combat the power creep.)
Originally I think it was a slightly tweaked Vo'Quv sold as a teir 5 ship. Originally you could have argued it didn't have a console and was a artificial teir 5 ship because it was the only federation carrier. That was what made it special.
That rational no longer applies.
There are at least three full carriers (four if your a romulan) and at least three half carrier available to the federation.
Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit: Innate Transwarp
Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit: Tachyon Detection Grid
D'Kyr Science Vessel: Launch Support Craft
Exploration Cruiser Retrofit: Saucer Separation
Long Range Science Vessel Retrofit: Ablative Generator
Tactical Escort Retrofit: Cloaking Device Console
B'Rel Bird-of-Prey Retrofit: Enhanced Battle Cloak (also on the Fleet B'rel)
Kar'Fi Battle Carrier: Phase Shift Generator, S'kul Fighter (can be used in any FDC/Carrier, but requires the character own a Kar'Fi to purchase them), & Fer'jai Frigate (can only be launched from the Kar'Fi) - Fleet Kar'Fi can do the pets as well
Marauder Flight-Deck Cruiser: Marauding Force (can be used in any FDC/Carrier, but requires the character own a Marauder to purchase them)
Varanus Support Vessel: Repair Platform
2500 Zen Boats
Andorian Charal Escort: Wing Cannon Platforms & Kumari Phaser Wing Cannons
Andorian Khyzon Escort: Tachyon Induction Relay & Kumari Phaser Wing Cannons
Andorian Kumari Escort: Phaser Dispersal Array & Kumari Phaser Wing Cannons
Assault Cruiser Refit: Metreon Gas Canisters & Wide Angle Quantum Torpedo Launcher
Avenger: Variable Auto-Targeting Armament & can use Gal-X/Defiant Cloak (doesn't come with)
Caitian Atrox Carrier: only class capable of using Stalkers (but that also includes the Fleet version now)
Dreadnought Cruiser: Phaser Spinal Lance & Cloaking Device Console
Heavy Escort Carrier: Photon Torpedo Point Defense System
Multi-Mission Reconnaissance Explorer: Quantum Field Focus Controller & Aux Phaser Dual Heavy Cannons
Multi-Mission Strategic Explorer: Multidimensional Wave-Function Analysis Module & Aux Phaser Dual Heavy Cannons
Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer: Sympathetic Fermion Transceiver & Aux Phaser Dual Heavy Cannons
Multi-Vector Advanced Escort: Multi-Vector Assault Module
Odyssey Operations Cruiser: Chevron Separation
Odyssey Science Cruiser: Sensor Analysis & Work Bees
Odyssey Tactical Cruiser: Aquarius Escort Pet
Bortasqu' Command Cruiser: Sensor Analysis & Subspace Snare
Bortasqu' Tactical Cruiser: Disruptor Autocannon
Bortasqu' War Cruiser: HoH'SuS Bird-of-Prey
Guramba Siege Destroyer: Siege Mode/Javelin
Mogh Battle Cruiser: Dynamic Defense Deployment System
Ar'Kif Tactical Carrier Warbird Retrofit: Focused Singularity Modulator
D'deridex Warbird Battle Cruiser Retrofit: Projected Singularity
Dhelan Warbird Retrofit: Sabotage Probe
Falchion Dreadnought Warbird: Secondary Shields
Haakona Advanced Warbird: Dual Vector Separation
Scimitar Dreadnought Warbird: Cloaked Barrage
T'varo Light Warbird Retrofit: Enhanced Battle Cloak & Plasma Destabilizer (Fleet T'varo also has EBC)
Tulwar Dreadnought Warbird: Singularity Distributor Unit
So there are currently two ships that fall into the "category" of the Fleet version covers the Zen version or the Zen version does not come with something not otherwise available...
Caitian Atrox Carrier 2500 Zen
B'rel Bird-of-Prey Retrofit 2000 Zen
I say currently, because with ongoing rumors of other ships that may become available as Fleet vessels...another one or two might show up that fit that "category" - and - there's also the deal with the Corsair for 1500 Zen or getting a Corsair Retro for 200k FC instead. Sure, it's not a T5 Zen boat...but it's a Zen boat without the "shiny" so to speak.
And see, I think you'd get more folks agreeing based on this line of arguing...than comparing 9 Console Zen boats to 800 Lobi boats...jmho.
I think my biggest beef was that OP was comparing a 9-console C-store ship to Lockbox and Lobi ships, and trying to say that for things that should be equivalent (which due to the nature of being a 9 console ship it already isn't) they aren't (which is also true since lobi and lockbox ships beat out most C-store ships anyways, regardless of console count).
Probably, but not my case. (I do thank you for adding the extra comparison though.) The case isn't limited to just 2,000 or 2,5000coin C-Store ships. It's that every paid for ship ,with few exceptions, have a console that can or will carry over to a fleet version.
:P
The same base logic applies though. They have consoles that can or will apply to fleet versions, so I still compare them on that criteria. The logic still applies that they came after and have a overall increase in stats (even when compared to the fleet Atrox).
So saying that the Atrox does not compare to an 800 Lobi...is kind of...duh! Even saying the Fleet Atrox does not compare...is kind of...duh! Folks know that...er...usually.
Asking that the Atrox actually compare...is kind of.../facepalm.
That the Atrox should compare to other 2500 Zen 9 Console ships on the other hand...is where you're going to find the folks agreeing with you.
Heck, you'll even find folks that say as a 2500 Zen ship - it should be a 10 Console ship!
2000 Zen for 9 Consoles...2500 Zen for 10 Consoles.
So you'd have folks arguing that the Atrox should either have a price drop of 500 Zen or that it should pick up a 10th Console as well as some sort of "shiny"...
...but that's still not going to be a case of either it or the Fleet Atrox being "equivalent" to an 800 Lobi ship.
(Aside from making the game a little more pay to win, which I think everyone should be fighting against?)
Because I can think of another progression. It's not cost, but age. The Atrox is at the bottom of the scale not because it's a 2,000 or 2,500 ship, but because it's the older ship.
800 Lobi
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Tholian_Recluse_Carrier
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Jem%27Hadar_Dreadnought_Carrier
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Advanced_Obelisk_Carrier
Lockbox
n/a
Fleet
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_Caitian_Atrox_Carrier
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_Vo%27Quv_Carrier
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_Kar%27Fi_Battle_Carrier
10 Console Zen
n/a
9 Console Zen
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Caitian_Atrox_Carrier
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Kar%27Fi_Battle_Carrier
RA (Free or 120k Dil or Mirror or Single Mission Event)
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Obelisk_Carrier (although this is T1 Spire now, it was a single mission reward)
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Vo%27Quv_Carrier
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Mirror_Universe_Vo%27Quv_Carrier
Where the Atrox stands out as having a "fault" - is the lack of "shiny" compared to the RA Free (where the "shiny" would be what typically differentiates it from that level) and the lack of the "shiny" compared to the Kar'Fi (which has that "shiny" that differentiates it from the RA Free)...
Fleet Vessels have +10% hull, +10% shield mod, and +1 console compared to their non-Fleet versions in general. Lobi 'n Lockbox ships will have those stats (or better) while also having a "shiny" or two. There are 10 Console Zen ships that have near-Fleet level stats, and versus a straight up comparison might pull ahead - but slap the console from the non-Fleet in the Fleet...and yeah, slips back down.
I'm not sure how you could ask the question that you did - unless you were asking it rhetorically, since you've provided multiple examples yourself...of where X ship is better than Y ship is better than Z ship.
Perhaps it is tied into the desire for the game not to be P2W, eh? In the end, the game is not P2W. Heck, at this point it's not even P2WFaster...we've moved so far beyond the content with free items - even P2WF/P4A/etc/etc/etc doesn't exist.
Unless one is talking about PvP - where it is obviously P2W.*
PvE - you don't even need T5 ships to do...
*edit: Felt the need to clarify that. Yes, there's skill, luck of the roll, and all the rest - but if you were fighting yourself and you were in a RA ship with mission gear fighting yourself in a Lockbox ship that's geared out the wahzoo...what do you think is going to happen, eh? Yep, thus - imo - PvP is obviously P2W...paying for an advantage...etc, etc, etc.
When the Atrox came out back in May 2012...the date in STO was 2409.
When the Recluse came out back in July 2012...the date in STO was 2409.
When the Jem Dread came out back in January 2013...the date in STO was 2409.
When the Obelisk came out back in October 2013...the date in STO was 2409.
Back when the game launched in 2010...the date in STO was 2409.
Login right now...it's 2409. Login a week from now...it's 2409.
"Age" doesn't exist in that sense...and that's one of the reasons so many folks in the Federation Shipyards and KDF Fleetyards continue to ask Cryptic to update some of the "real world" older vessels to match some of the newer vessels...because it was 2409 then and it's 2409 now. "Age" shouldn't matter...unless we're talking about actual older ships...like comparing a TOS Connie to an Odyssey.
I think the nearest comparison to the the voquv if only because it has the same level of bridge officer stations, hangar bays, hell the fleet versions even have the same console slots and the same price...wait no the voquv is one module cheaper.
They also have unique pets that may only be used on themselves. Except the 9 console voquv is free. Huh.
Problem is there is no straight comparison of it to any other carrier in the same price frame, either things that are similar are free or cheaper or things that are in the same price frame have shinies and that's without even bringing lobi and lockbox stuff into it.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
But that's where I've been asking for an overall equality, no? 2500 Zen boats should have the same objective value/worth - can't do anything about the subjective value/worth that exists...but if you've got X & Y ships for 2500 Zen that have 10 Consoles and then Z for 2500 as well, but only 9 Consoles...tada - inconsistency and issue!
That's where the "premium" aspect comes into play. Feds have to pay for a Carrier much like the KDF have to pay for a Sci Vessel. KDF get Carriers for free, Feds get Sci Vessels for free. So there's a "premium" charge involved. Even taking that into account though...it's an inconsistent charge, imo.
Doesn't have to be a Carrier, though - nimo - it just has to be compared to other 2500 Zen ships...where you run into the issues of 2500 Zen 10 vs. 9 Consoles before you even get to the lack of the "shiny" on the Atrox.
Of course, something to consider - that folks probably don't want to consider would be...
The price of everything "should" have gone up. The 2k Zen somebody paid a couple of years ago for a boat...should probably be at 2.5k or higher now. 2.5k boats...3k or higher. Etc, etc, etc. Cause prices go up!
But...what Cryptic has done (just speculation, but logical) is something that folks complain about - they've introduced all these other things that generate revenue for them. Tada, they're subsidizing keeping the prices down on other things...eh? If not for Lockboxes and all the rest...then the prices of other things would have had to go up. Through selling all the rest, they can keep the prices down on other things.
But...taking that into account - well, there's still going to be inconsistencies. A 2 year old 2.5k Zen boat should be as good as a 2.5k Zen boat coming out tomorrow. It should provide something new and interesting - fill a need or desire...but all in all, it should be balanced. Want more - well, that's where there will be Fleet ships, Lockbox ships, Lobi ships!
I said I based my judgement on historical power creep. I mean from one ship release to the next. You reply: "So saying that the Atrox does not compare to an 800 Lobi...is kind of...duh!"
I'm doing that request for clarification thing. :P I should ask hereticknight085 the same question. Consider your self asked, sir. I'm trying to understand why the cost is the important factor to you.
"Lobi > Lockbox > Fleet > 10 Console Zen > 9 Console Zen > RA (Free or 120k Dil) > 200k FC"
I keep being told I should follow this hierarchy after I give my logic why I don't. My current case as it stands isn't enough to win the day apparently. I need to acknowledge defeat, adjust it, or find out why it's not understood. So, I ask a question. :P
What I have to say in counter depends on why someone thinks: "Lobi > Lockbox > Fleet > 10 Console Zen > 9 Console Zen > RA (Free or 120k Dil) > 200k FC"
That's what bothers me. It's bad craftsmanship which is what really offends me, and a downward spiral. If the selling point is it has to be more powerfully and shiny then the last it will always have to be more powerful and shiny then the last. They're not up-keeping the system to keep up with the strain of such a ethic. [edit]Which is my problem with the Atrox.[/edit] (Surely I'm not the only one that sees this as corrosive and toxic?)
That's a more complicated case to make though. :P
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Camaro: http://www.chevrolet.com/#carline-nav-Camaro from $23,555
Avalanche: http://www.chevrolet.com/#carline-nav-Avalanche from $35,980
Suburban: http://www.chevrolet.com/#carline-nav-Suburban from $47,300
When somebody goes in to buy a Suburban, they do not expect to drive out in a Spark...do they?
Okay, so folks don't like car analogies - and - somebody would say, hey - those are different kinds of cars! Okay, the Equinox starts at ~$24k. When somebody goes in to buy a Suburban, they do not expect to drive out in an Equinox...do they?
Okay, still not liking the car thing?
Positron Deflector Array Mk X Value: 45,000
Positron Deflector Array Mk X Value: 59,850
Positron Deflector Array Mk X Value: 74,700
Positron Deflector Array Mk X Value: 100,000
Which one is better? The one with a value of 45k or the one with a value of 100k?
800 Lobi: the average amount of Lobi per Lockbox is ~5. Each Lockbox requires a Key. Though a Key can be purchased for EC or with Zen bought with Dil, the Key cannot exist unless the Zen is purchased at some point. So Zen will be the common currency. So again, with an average of ~5 Lobi per Lockbox - we can see around how much Zen an 800 Lobi ship might cost.
We'll even take a look at both sale and non-sale prices on the Keys, eh?
Sale Price: 10 Keys for 956 Zen. So if we need 800 Lobi, at 5 a Lockbox, we need 160 Keys. We would need 16 of the 10-packs. We'd need 15,296 Zen.
Non-Sale Price: 10 Keys for 1125 Zen. So if we need 800 Lobi, at 5 a Lockbox, we need 160 Keys. We would need 16 of the 10-packs. We'd need 18,000 Zen.
Lockbox: well, there's no pretty numbers here. There's a small chance...miniscule...and it's chance, so it's random. You could get a ship on your first Lockbox you could open a thousand a not get one. This should obviously be the most expensive, no? You have to consider the sheer number of folks that are popping a few boxes vs. the number of folks that will open 160 boxes.
Then you've got the 2500 Zen and 2000 Zen ships...er...works done for us.
Then there are the Free RA (120k Dil) ships. At the current stable exchange rate of 128 Dil for 1 Zen, those ships are ~938 Zen.
With the 200k FC ships, one might be tempted to say the easiest way to get 200k FC is to spend 200k Dil...so these ships should be ~1563 Zen ships. But just because that would be the easiest way, doesn't mean it's the most cost-effective way. There are countless ways to generate FC...almost all of them not requiring any Zen.
So yes...it is a hierarchy based on if you pay more for something...it's better.
Obviously though, folks will hit up the Exchange and can buy Lobi ships for cheaper than Lockbox ships. I've always found that funny, personally. Not always the case, mind you...but I've always found it funny. Usually attribute it to the lower price being subsidized by everything else that was gained popping those 160 or so boxes.
Check these current prices out, eh?
Apex 80m vs. Hunter 86.1m
Recluse 85m vs. Weaver 72m
Bulwark 388m vs. Bastion 69m
Dreadnought 87.5m vs. JHEC 92m
Adapted Battle Cruiser 87.9m vs. Adapted Des 77.5m
Monbosh 84m vs. S'golth 55.9m
And it would appear (as an observation, not a fact) that folks may have finally started to realize what was going on...or it could just be the market is saturated with choices, etc, etc, etc.
So while you have an aversion to this being a P2W game...well, again - is VR Mk XII better than Rare Mk XII? Does Rare Mk XII cost more? Yep...heck, take a look at the cost of the Romulan Plasma weapons compared to either Plasma or Disruptor, eh?
But that's where it still being 2409, the level cap still being 50...four years later...is problematic, imho - from a business perspective.
"Real World" requires newer and better things. Say you go out to buy a GPU...and you have $65-70 to spend (money's tight, economy sucks, VD's lame example).
January 2014 - http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gaming-graphics-card-review,3107-2.html - and you're looking at a Radeon R7 240.
January 2010 - http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/best-graphics-card,2521-2.html - and you're looking at a Radeon HD 4670 (hey, that's my card!).
If you check out the hierarchy chart - http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gaming-graphics-card-review,3107-7.html - they're both at the same level. So it would make sense to buy either of them, right?
Nope, not quite - http://www.hwcompare.com/15256/radeon-hd-4670-1gb-vs-radeon-r7-240/ - and depending on what one was looking at, it could go either way. If one was playing older games on an older system...then they might prefer the 4670 over the R7 240.
However, if one wanted DX11.2 instead of DX10.1 - OpenGL 4.3 instead of OpenGL 3.0 - SM 5.0 instead of SM 4.1 - well, then their choice is obvious...which card is better.
There is the expectation that $100 today will get you something better than $100 would have four years ago. There is the expectation that 2500 Zen will get you something better today than it would two years ago...
...and I don't agree with that. Because it's not "Real World" - it's still 2409. 2500 Zen today should get you the same as two years ago...cause it's still then, even though it is now.
Now...if we had advanced in time in the game - had the level cap increased - etc, etc, etc...then yeah, I could see them going the route of perhaps lowering prices/raising prices. Instead, they've kept things the same - boosted the stats...and have been giving away some of the older stuff that folks don't buy as much, eh?
Say I bought myself 2500 Zen for the holidays and I was going to buy a Fed ship (given I have no Fed toons, should tell you the odds of my buying 2500 Zen - ahem)...the following are the 2500 Zen ships available to Feds.
Andorian Charal Escort - http://sto.gamepedia.com/Andorian_Charal_Escort
Andorian Khyzon Escort - http://sto.gamepedia.com/Andorian_Khyzon_Escort
Andorian Kumari Escort - http://sto.gamepedia.com/Andorian_Kumari_Escort
Assault Cruiser Refit - http://sto.gamepedia.com/Assault_Cruiser_Refit
Avenger Battle Cruiser - http://sto.gamepedia.com/Avenger_Battle_Cruiser
Caitian Atrox Carrier - http://sto.gamepedia.com/Caitian_Atrox_Carrier
Dreadnought Cruiser - http://sto.gamepedia.com/Dreadnought_Cruiser
Heavy Escort Carrier - http://sto.gamepedia.com/Heavy_Escort_Carrier
Multi-Mission Reconnaissance Explorer - http://sto.gamepedia.com/Multi-Mission_Reconnaissance_Explorer
Multi-Mission Strategic Explorer - http://sto.gamepedia.com/Multi-Mission_Strategic_Explorer
Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer - http://sto.gamepedia.com/Multi-Mission_Surveillance_Explorer
Multi-Vector Advanced Escort - http://sto.gamepedia.com/Multi-Vector_Advanced_Escort
Odyssey Operations Cruiser - http://sto.gamepedia.com/Odyssey_Operations_Cruiser
Odyssey Science Cruiser - http://sto.gamepedia.com/Odyssey_Science_Cruiser
Odyssey Tactical Cruiser - http://sto.gamepedia.com/Odyssey_Tactical_Cruiser
And perusing them...I start to wonder if Cryptic is smoking the Cracktic...seriously. There's a mix of 9 and 10 console ships - there's near Fleet level ships - they're all over the place...but they're all the same 2500 Zen? Put the crack pipe down, Cryptic...and step away...slowly!
It's not a release age thing...the Odyssey boats came out long before the Avenger. It's a smokin' dat crack thing! Seriously...
Hence the reason that I say a strong case can be made for the Atrox based on its 2500 Zen price point. Heck, it's also why I say 9 console ships should be 2000 Zen and the 10 console 2500 Zen...cause those 2500 Zen 9 console ships match up much better against their 2000 Zen 9 console cousins than their 2500 Zen 10 console siblings.
Even at 2k Zen for the Atrox, it would still be missing its shiny for being a 2k Zen boat.
And that's how I would argue (heh, and I have argued in the past for a few boats) the matter...
...I wouldn't expect to go into my local Chevy dealer, pay for a Spark and drive out with a Corvette (starting at $51k).
Ok, you pay more, you get more. (At least in theory anyway. :P) I have no probably with that concept. We all have to eat. Food is good. Better food is better.
I was looking for a reference of where you got the idea to use that cost to rate ships. (To check if that was actually a state plainly the goal of the development team.) -OR- Why it was cost that you ranked ships by. Instead of say age, coolness, how pretty it was, or performance.
I look at cost as water mark to how good or bad something is and rebel because I think that's Toxic. With a capital 'T', and lethally so. Why? You should be able to work to get better things. Just "better things" should never be the point. Making that the focus is a non-stop quest that ends when it drives you into the ground in hopelessness. I don't want to go down that path, and I don't want to watch someone else do it.
How does that end poorly? That's what started and allows my case. The never ending quest to only care about the next shiny thing is what left the Atrox to gather dust, and let's me shout "Hey! Why doesn't the Atrox have a console like everything else!?"
When I said they're not doing upkeep? I didn't mean hardware or tech wise. I mean purely from a rules of the game point of view. I should admit that is or has changed at least a little for the better though.
The hirogen ships have build in stealth. Ok, they're hunters, sure, why not? It's shiny!
...
The Atrox. Designed by cats for stealth fighters. Something big slow and clumsy that could actually have a very good argument for needing stealth. Instead it's a big blue target that acts as a targeting beacon for it's fighter's location ...
...
Anyone want to try to justify that?
Imagine a pool of water.
Drop a pebble into the water. Tiny ripples result that quickly dissipate among the sheer volume of water, right?
Now drop a whale into the water. Then go dry yourself off and refill the pool of water and clean up what's left of the whale.
The pebble was your stalker fighters. They give off a small energy and physical signature that is easy to mask. They don't generate a large amount of ANYTHING due to their small size and mass. Therefore, it's easy to hide.
The whale was your carrier. It's huge. It has a HUGE energy and physical signature. It generates a tremendous amount of energy, movement, etc. Lots of mass, lots to shield, huge engine output, etc. If you stealthed it, it would be like trying to cover a pyramid with a baby blanket. It just won't work.
Besides, none of the playable true carriers in game have any kind of stealth tech (not even the Vo'Quv can cloak, it's the only KLINGON ship that can't, only exception to that rule is the Assimilated Carrier in CSE).
Thanks for putting some thought into it. :P
That's not entirely true though. Even my whale can be hidden with mask energy signature from a bridge officer or the (honor guard/adapted MACO) space set. Which oddly enough (beyond MES +def) is it's sole redeeming grace to me. My big blue brick isn't instantly seen and zeroed in on with MES. The Atrox is a whale and a eye catcher.
The question then becomes why green a light stealth fighters that can only be launched or be in proximity giant targeting beacon? It's self defeating. (Like the photonic displacer console.) The hirogen found a way with Apex Heavy Battlecruiser isn't exactly a small ship.
They even made the color and shape of a "stealth" carrier stand out! (Not that I'm knocking the color pallete. It is sort of pretty.)
It's another inconsistency that would be nice if it was fixed. One way being stealth systems tweeked so I can't point to this anymore and say "HA! See!". The other the Atrox gets some kind of console, stealth, or something to set it apart. (Thought I guess I did turn my nose up at that indirection when I said "If we get a console, I'd rather it be something new." oops)
Edit: There is a reason all the apex predator's fur blends with their surrounding and is not few shades of the background with glowing lights. :P
The Hirogen LIVE for the hunt! The Hunt (yes, I capitalized it for a reason) to them is their way of life. Without it, they are nothing. THAT is why all of their ships are built to hunt and subdue prey. So I don't think you should be comparing the two.
Yes, the Hirogen hunt as a religious thing, if I remember correctly. Each Hirogen chooses to hunt though. As I recall it's under the beilief their world and/or race will die if they forgo "The Hunt".
Felines hunt as a matter of being able to eat. Them choosing to completely ignore that means, there are no living carnivores that don't know how to hunt in some way. :P I don't agree for the same reason, but I think you are right, hereticknight085, I probably shouldn't compare the too. :P
Part of the lore of why so many of starfleet security's personal are caitain is that little factoid, or the Feline Instinct trait. As a matter of lore the caitian atrox carrier was designed and build by caitians specifically because of their technical or doctrine expertise.
Yeah, I was thinking the same.
Part of the reason might be balance, or perceived balance. If you can cloak/hide the Atrox for awhile you can just spit fighters/drones ect out until what you want to blow up blows up.
The other is the Atrox is very heavy in shields and hull, and is a bit of a tank as well.
Also, the Hirogen are obsessed with the Hunt and build their ships for the Hunt. The Catians hunt, yes, but they don't make it into a religion. The Atrox is build for war, and give support and launch fighters.
Hirogen ships are designed and built specifically to hunt, stalk, and subdue prey. Stealth would be a rather large part of that process.
The Atrox was designed for total destruction. Stealth not required. Want confirmation? Read the tooltip description for the Atrox in the shipyard.
That still leave two outstanding issue:
1) At one to the best of my knowledge during or after their deployment, No SR-71, B-2, or F-22 has their launch and return highlighted by bright blue flares! (AKA the Atrox hull)
2) The hirogen are centered around "The Hunt" as a religion thing. So they build ships around "The Hunt". (Even though not all of them are blood thirsty.) The rational of them having stealth is that's their lifestyle? Correct?
Cats are as good or better hunters by the simple fact any that are not have died of starvation! It then follow any living cat you see (above the age of kitten) know how to hunt as well or better as a matter of survival.
If the rational for the hirogen ships is a matter of the hunting being the center peace of their culture, Why does that not also apply to caitians?
The Atrox is a contrarian's ship. By that I mean that it goes against the trends that most people use to set up their ships. According to some people, you're not supposed to use tetryon weapons. I use tetryon weapons. You're not supposed to equip a torpedo. I equip a gravimetric photon torpedo up front. You're not supposed to mix cannons and beams. I put a set of dual heavy cannons and a set of dual beam arrays up front. You're not supposed to have all three teams (science, engineering, and tactical). I use all three teams with a maintenance engineer DOFF and a development lab scientist DOFF to reduce the cool-downs as well as improve effectiveness. In short, I do a lot of the things that, at least according to conventional thought, one is not supposed to do.
You want to make the Atrox work? Then you have to devise your own strategies, techniques, and designs independently of common trends. You have to be a heretic.